The "Pre-Trib" Rapture exposed!

[Christian40]

THE TRIBULATION OF THE CHURCH:
 
This bible study will examine the "rapture" of the Church. Will it be pre-Tribulation? Mid? or Post? This may seem like a minor doctrinal issue of no consequence, but that is actually not the case at all.
 
The majority of the Church has been set up and deceived into believing in a pre-Tribulation "rapture". This theory proposes that: one day out of the blue all Christians will suddenly disappear leaving the world wondering what has happened. After this event the 7 year Tribulation period will start and the antichrist will come to power. During this time everyone on earth will be given a second chance to become born again Christians. The people who get saved during this time are called the "tribulation saints" and will be beheaded for refusing to take the mark of the beast. At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus will return with his "raptured" Church in the clouds and defeat the antichrist and his armies. The beast and false prophet will be thrown in the lake of fire and the devil will be chained in prison for 1000 years while Jesus reigns on earth with his Church at the same time.
 
This is not the biblical truth and this theory has been influenced and reinforced in believers minds far more by fictional books and apostate preachers than God's Word. I will use the plain truth of scripture to disprove this theory.
 
In the first part of this study we will look at what the Bible says about going through tribulation, persecution, and affliction. Many Christians say there is no hope if there is no pre-Trib "rapture" and that is exactly the mentality this theory creates. When the "rapture" doesn't happen these Christians will be so unprepared to go through the Tribulation that they will be completely overwhelmed and their faith will utterly fail them. Many will be in such denial at the events unfolding before their eyes that they will be extremely susceptible to deception. This will ultimately result in millions of Christians taking the mark of the beast because they are NOT PREPARED to give their lives for the Lord Jesus Christ. I DO NOT want this to happen so this is why I am writing this exhortation to warn all those who believe this theory. Even using simple logic just think of it like this: Isn't it better to be prepared to go through the Tribulation and be surprised by a "rapture" than to count on the "rapture" and be completely overwhelmed in Tribulation? Unfortunately there will be no PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE.
 
PART 1 - GLORY IN TRIBULATION:
 
"[12] Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." - II Timothy 3:12
 
"[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: [2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. [3] And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; [4] And patience, experience; and experience, hope: [5] And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." - Romans 5:1-5
 
You see there is HOPE in tribulation. Have faith.
 
"[3] That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. [4] For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know." - I Thessalonians 3:3,4
 
We are appointed to suffer tribulation and afflictions.
 
"[22] Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." - Acts 14:22
 
This is what Paul said after he was stoned so bad that everyone thought he was dead!
 
"[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. [8] All these are the beginning of sorrows. [9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. [10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." - Matthew 24:7-13
 
Right here it shows that after the beginning of sorrows we shall be hated and killed! How can we be hated and killed if we're "raptured" out? Must be those people "left behind"...please tell me why Jesus would say this and not say, "but you don't have to worry about that because you will be raptured. This is directed at unbelievers who will become believers during the Tribulation." ?!?! Why would he direct this statement at people who aren't even reading this Bible?! He wouldn't. He says those who ENDURE UNTO THE END shall be saved. We must be overcomers and endure the entire Tribulation all the way until we die or Jesus returns.
 
PART 2 - THE APPEARING:
 
Before this next passage Jesus has stated that there will be wars, earthquakes, famine, Christians hated and killed, false prophets, and false Christs(but no "rapture"). Then the beast will stand in the holy place which will start the second half(3 1/2 yrs.) of the Tribulation(The Great Tribulation) at which point Christians and Jews will need to flee into the mountains. At the end of all these events this is what scripture says:
 
"[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." - Matthew 24:29-31
 
This says that Jesus will return AFTER the Tribulation and his angels will gather his elect(Jews and Gentiles saved by the blood of Jesus) at the sound of a trumpet. Remember the trumpet.
 
"[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." - II Thessalonians 2:1-4
 
Clearly and plainly this gives a clear warning for a reason: do not be deceived! That day will not come(the day of Christ) until the man of sin is revealed, the antichrist. We will be here on earth when the antichrist is revealed! We will not be "raptured".
 
"[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." - Revelation 20:4
 
How can Christians "not worship the beast" if we're "raptured" out? I suppose some will say these are they who are "left behind". This will be disproven if it has not been already.
 
"[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: [25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. [26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. [27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? [28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? [29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
 
Note that the tares are gathered FIRST to be burned.
 
"[36] Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. [37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; [38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; [39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. [40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. [41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." - Matthew 13:24-30,36-43
 
The unbelievers are gathered FIRST and thrown in the lake of fire, then the believers will shine forth and reign with Christ.
 
"[42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. [43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. [44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. [45] Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? [46] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [47] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. [48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; [50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, [51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 24:42-51
 
Do you think that when the pre-trib "rapture" does not happen people will say "My lord delayeth his coming"? Will they turn from the faith and drink with the drunken? Time will tell.
 
"[1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. [2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. [3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: [4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. [5] While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. [6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. [7] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. [8] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. [9] But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. [10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. [11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. [12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. [13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." - Matthew 25:1-13
 
Seriously consider this parable. Why would Jesus say the foolish virgins didn't have enough oil to last the whole night? Why didn't they have time to buy more?
 
"[30] The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth." - Proverbs 10:30
 
This one is straightforward.
 
PART 3 - FLY LIKE AN EAGLE:
 
This final section will examine the verses used by pre-tribbers to support the rapture theory. These interpretations will be disproven using the Bible itself and simple logic.
 
"[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words." - I Thessalonians 4:13-18
 
This talks about the resurrection, but it does not say when it will happen. Verse 16 says, "with the trump of God". What is the trump? and when? Read on.
 
"[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." - I Corinthians 15:51,52
 
This is talking about the same event as in I Thessalonians 4:13-18. It says it will happen at the last trump. What is a trump? It then says, "for the trumpet shall sound". Trump = Trumpet. It also said it was the last trump so that means this occurs at the last trumpet. What is the last trumpet? Well in the book of Revelation there are seven angels who sound off seven trumpets, so the last trumpet is obviously the seventh trumpet! I will skip the scriptures describing the first six trumpets and go straight to the seventh.
 
"[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. [16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, [17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. [18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." - Revelation 11:15-18
 
Those who endure to the last trump will receive their reward.
 
"[33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [37] And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." - Luke 17:33-37
 
First of all, everyone who puts their hope and trust in the pre-Trib rapture is seeking to save their life, period. Second, the disciples ask Jesus where the people are taken and he said the body would be where the eagles are gathered together. You must ask the logical question, where are the eagles gathered? Thankfully the Bible answers itself:
 
"[28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." - Matthew 24:28
 
The eagles are gathered around the carcass! A dead body! These bodies are DEAD not "raptured". This is why we must listen to the Word alone and not man's interpretation.
 
"[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." - Revelation 3:10
 
Sounds like the "rapture" right? Nope. Let's not assume anything and let the Bible define the Bible. Notice how he says "keep thee". He does not say, "take thee out of". Jesus clarifies here:
 
"[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." - John 17:15
 
In the KJV "keep" is defined to mean "protect". Jesus would rather have us go through tribulation and protect us because of our faith, than whisk us away so that we learn and gain nothing.
 
I earnestly hope and pray that this study has opened up your eyes to the truth. We are going all the way through the Tribulation. Don't let this get you down and make you lose hope. In fact you should rejoice because those who endure the Tribulation will receive unimaginable reward in heaven. There are none so greatly blessed than those who suffer for the Gospel and die as a witness for Jesus. Just remind yourself that it is all temporary and these afflictions will be gone in the blink of an eye. Soon Jesus will return to wipe away every tear and get rid of all the pain, sorrow, and death forever. So fill your lamp with enough oil, keep the faith, and warn as many others as you can. Time is running out so let's make sure we are the ones written of in this passage:
 
"[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. [11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." - Revelation 12:10,11

Blessings

[theBIBLICALdude]

Ah yes I think I heard about this from a sermon entitles "I want to be left behind" amusing in the least however it still contradicts the 7th seal (which is the tribulation on the Lost.....in which the 6th seal kind of shows the Saved being taken away....) I mean if the seals are to be read backwards then that would make sense I suppose.


Here is a concept

http://matthew18twenty.com/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=264

[PeanutGallery]

How about Pre-wrath; that would take care of saints who do not take the mark, and too late for anyone else to repent.
    1Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from Heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
    Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    There is satan's wrath and God's wrath.
    During Trib, people will fall or stand under satan's wrath; God's wrath begins just prior to His 2nd Coming. Pre-wrath deals with rapture prior to the beginning of God's wrath.  Just enough time to deliver the saints from God's wrath and too late for everybody else to repent.

[theBIBLICALdude]

How about Pre-wrath; that would take care of saints who do not take the mark, and too late for anyone else to repent.
    1Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from Heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
    Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    There is satan's wrath and God's wrath.
    During Trib, people will fall or stand under satan's wrath; God's wrath begins just prior to His 2nd Coming. Pre-wrath deals with rapture prior to the beginning of God's wrath.  Just enough time to deliver the saints from God's wrath and too late for everybody else to repent.

The issue I have with people saying that there will be tribulation saints is this: After the rapture there is only the Lost here on earth, so is (according to scripture) the Gospel is the power to salvation to all that believe, how are they going to believe with no one around to spread the Gospel?

Romans 10:13-14 KJV
(13)  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(14)  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The whole futurist view makes no biblical sense, and leads to more confusion than it ought, but everyone is entitled to believe their own use of scriptures, and God willing will be shown the truth in God's timeline.

Work out your own salvation....

[Kilika]

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:7 (KJB)

[theBIBLICALdude]

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:7 (KJB)

Then it must be sunset hoss.

You know Leo, that last email you sent on ppf to me, I never or do not remember saying, thanks. While we may not all agree on things in scripture, I can say this much, your advice helped more than even I realized at the time, and God willing, aiding me in the end to move past on most circumstances  and express what I believe and then let God do the rest.

Keep the faith, brother.

[Kilika]

  Your welcome my friend. Thank you Jesus.

"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ." Galatians 6:2 (KJB)

[Christian40]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2scNlHF0o0w&feature=share

"A STUNNING factual historical account of how this destructive "heresy" entered the church only 180 years ago, and has poisoned the minds of Christians Worldwide with its false promise that will have a disastrous crushing blow to everyone who believes it, and this crushing blow will be delivered by antichrist himself at his appearing. Please also see my other video film called Junkyard Tribulation. See also in the description portion of the Junkyard Tribulation video, your last day survival tools! THESE ARE TOOLS EVERY CHRISTIAN MUST HAVE! Please SHARE these videos with your friends! Let's earnestly contend for the faith and not let these book writing, TV ministry multi millionaires LIE to God's people, and DECEIVE them!"

[Mark]

"A STUNNING factual historical account of how this destructive "heresy" entered the church only 180 years ago, and has poisoned the minds of Christians Worldwide with its false promise that will have a disastrous crushing blow to everyone who believes it, and this crushing blow will be delivered by antichrist himself at his appearing. Please also see my other video film called Junkyard Tribulation. See also in the description portion of the Junkyard Tribulation video, your last day survival tools! THESE ARE TOOLS EVERY CHRISTIAN MUST HAVE! Please SHARE these videos with your friends! Let's earnestly contend for the faith and not let these book writing, TV ministry multi millionaires LIE to God's people, and DECEIVE them!"

same thing i offer every one that posts lies like this, ill give ya 1 chance to change this. 

[Psalm 51:17]

And let's not forget the Jesuits also came up with the leaven doctrine of Preterism.

With that being said, SOME events in Rev have/are taking place already, and SOME are yet to be fulfilled in the future.

This is just my humble opinion, but the 1st 5 seals have already been broken for almost 2000 years, and the 5th trumpet will be the emergence of the Antichrist. The saved will be protected during the trib, and the rapture of the church will happen on the 7th trumpet.

[Mark]

And let's not forget the Jesuits also came up with the leaven doctrine of Preterism.

With that being said, SOME events in Rev have/are taking place already, and SOME are yet to be fulfilled in the future.

This is just my humble opinion, but the 1st 5 seals have already been broken for almost 2000 years, and the 5th trumpet will be the emergence of the Antichrist. The saved will be protected during the trib, and the rapture of the church will happen on the 7th trumpet.

when was the seals opened? what were they? why the rapture at the 7th trumpet?

[Psalm 51:17]

when was the seals opened? what were they? why the rapture at the 7th trumpet?

The 5th trumpet is when the beast from the bottomless pit emerges - in Rev 11, 13, and 17, the OWG antichrist is said to rise out of the bottomless pit. Just comparing scripture to scripture, if Rev 13 beast is the end times antichrist that emerges out of the bottomless pit, and the 5th trumpet mentions out of the bottomless pit, then how can the Antichrist emerge from the 1st seal?

5th seal - Christians have been persecuted for almost 2000 years.

With that being said - no, I didn't say Rev has a Preterism/Historcist view, I merely said the 1st 5 seals have been broken, but the 6th seal on the way to the last vial of wrath is set sometime in the future.

As for the video, I wish this lady didn't put only the mainline evangelicals like Charles Stanley and John Hagee that noone even takes seriously anyways. Why couldn't she have added Bryan Denlinger or PPF's cold fusion to the list?

[Mark]

The 5th trumpet is when the beast from the bottomless pit emerges - in Rev 11, 13, and 17, the OWG antichrist is said to rise out of the bottomless pit. Just comparing scripture to scripture, if Rev 13 beast is the end times antichrist that emerges out of the bottomless pit, and the 5th trumpet mentions out of the bottomless pit, then how can the Antichrist emerge from the 1st seal?

5th seal - Christians have been persecuted for almost 2000 years.

With that being said - no, I didn't say Rev has a Preterism/Historcist view, I merely said the 1st 5 seals have been broken, but the 6th seal on the way to the last vial of wrath is set sometime in the future.

As for the video, I wish this lady didn't put only the mainline evangelicals like Charles Stanley and John Hagee that noone even takes seriously anyways. Why couldn't she have added Bryan Denlinger or PPF's cold fusion to the list?

how do you equate the 5th trumpet with the antichrist? seriously you need to explain that one to me.
What was the first seal?
what was the second seal?
what was the third seal?
what was the fourth seal?
It also appears you are mixing seals and horns and bowls all happening at the same time?
Where are the 2 witness's? 
Bryan Denlinger? I was under the impression you liked this guy?

CF is right, there is no secret rapture, every one will witness this event. Heck the NEW-AGERS already have a plan with a deception in place to explain it away!!! Come on, why would the space brothers come thousands of light years and have a lie set up for the Rapture of the church! You all need to explain that one. Why do fallen angles and demons have a deception ready to go at any moment, to cover for the rapture of the church? any one?

One final thought, it was the Popes of the Catholic church that stopped the teaching of the rapture. But in places where the catholics didn't reign and the Bible was kept and spread the teaching of the Rapture flourished. There is rapture teaching all through out history, it didnt start in the 1800's. Dont be deceived....

[Kilika]

Why do fallen angles and demons have a deception ready to go at any moment, to cover for the rapture of the church? any one?

It may be subjective to alledge one is "ready to go", but point taken. No question the world is scrambling to explain away the truth of scripture. And of course because they prefer darkness rather than light, they have an inherant nature to deceive and be deceptive. Their mentality really is "Don't show 'em all your cards!", because they believe that withholding information can be used to their advantage in this dog eat dog world. To them, it pays carnal rewards to tell a lie every now and then. Which we know that if you offend in one point, your guilty of all, so even though they think a little strategic lying is good for themselves, in reality is has convicted them of a crime worthy of death. So they hide in the darkness of deceit that their deeds won't be uncovered.

[Psalm 51:17]

Bryan Denlinger? I was under the impression you liked this guy?

Sorry to have cut my last post somewhat short - I had to catch the bus to run to class.

I'm not the world's biggest fan of pre-trib, however, my point I was making is that nonetheless what's annoying about those that call out negatively the pre-trib doctrine will ONLY make examples of the mainstream evangelicals like Charles Stanley, Hal Lindsey, and John Hagee that noone really takes seriously anyways. Ultimately, if these anti pre-trib people want to really make a case, then why don't they add the likes of Denlinger, DA Waite, cold fusion, and others who are KJV only and have shown very good fruit in preaching doctrine? It's as if this anti pre-trib people will end up copping out by showing examples of people like John MacArthur and John Hagee that noone even gives a hoot about anyways. Again, I'm not sold on pre-trib, but if those that come out and criticize it want to make a case, they like the woman who made this video better do a better job(ie-she also forgot the Jesuits made up Preterism as well).

Anyhow, again, I had to run out quickly, so I might as well post scripture now.

[fifth trumpet]
Rev 9:1  And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2  And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3  And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5  And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6  And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:7  And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Rev 9:8  And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
Rev 9:9  And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
Rev 9:10  And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Rev 9:11  And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

[Two Witnesses]
Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

[Mystery Babylon]
Rev 17:3  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4  And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6  And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:7  And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Edit: I also said that I feel the saints will be protected in the last Act.

[fifth trumpet]
Rev 9:4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

[Psalm 51:17]

BTW - the woman in this video we're talking about now tried to connect DL Moody with the charismatics b/c Moody supposedly believed in the pre-trib rapture.

Just went to the yahoo search engine to do a search on "DL Moody Charismatic" and "DL Moody False Teacher" - NOTHING popped up with this regard.

If anything, the woman in this video is somewhat flawed with her overall presentation.

[Mark]

oK, you tackled the dilinger question, how about these others, as all you did was post scripture.

how do you equate the 5th trumpet with the antichrist? seriously you need to explain that one to me.
What was the first seal?
what was the second seal?
what was the third seal?
what was the fourth seal?
It also appears you are mixing seals and horns and bowls all happening at the same time?
Where are the 2 witness's? 

You are saying that Apollyon is the antichrist, how do you make that claim? Scripture does not support that idea.

[Kilika]

Never gave it much thought, but I can see where one would say he's not the Antichrist. Looks like scripture says he's just the angel over the bottomless pit.

"And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon." Revelation 9:1 (KJB)

[Psalm 51:17]

oK, you tackled the dilinger question, how about these others, as all you did was post scripture.

You are saying that Apollyon is the antichrist, how do you make that claim? Scripture does not support that idea.

How come Rev 11, 13, and 17 use bottomless pit the beast rises up out of? I understand the verse Kilika pointed out Appolyon in the 5th trumpet is the angel over the bottomless pit.

But nonetheless, isn't the 5th trumpet where the key is opened to the bottomless pit? Why is the Rev 13 beast described as being risen out of this bottomless pit? This is where I'm assuming that the antichrist is risen out of the 5th trumpet(Mike Hoggard thinks so too), b/c this is where the key to the bottomless pit opens, and Rev 13 says the beast arises out of the bottomless pit.

As for the seals itself - I was just pointing out that Christians have been martyred for almost 2000 years now - was assuming that the 5th seal has been broken over this time. And if this is the case, then I assumed from there the previous 4 seals have been broken as well.

[Mark]

i think your getting a little confused as to who is who. For starters which beast are you talking about? and is that beast the Dragon, the Beast or the False Prophet? Revelations is using the word Beast for a lot of different things and people. So help me out here and explain away just who you think is who?

[Psalm 51:17]

i think your getting a little confused as to who is who. For starters which beast are you talking about? and is that beast the Dragon, the Beast or the False Prophet? Revelations is using the word Beast for a lot of different things and people. So help me out here and explain away just who you think is who?

1st Beast of Rev - scripture says arises out of the bottomless pit.

5th trumpet - angel over the bottomless pit called Appolyon.

Rev 11 - beast arises out of bottomless pit(assumably the 1st beast of Rev 13) slays 2 witnesses.

Why is the bottomless pit mentioned about Appolyon in 5th trumpet and the 1st beast in Rev 13?

[Mark]

the actual verses please, just so i know exactly what your talking about.

[Kilika]

Must be a different place that says a beast comes out of the pit, because verse 3 says it's the locusts to hurt men 5 months, and it's the first "woe". Then the 6th trumpet sounds(second woe).

"And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power." Revelation 9:3 (KJB)

[Psalm 51:17]

the actual verses please, just so i know exactly what your talking about.

I did in my earlier post - http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,269.msg4105.html#msg4105

[Psalm 51:17]

Anyhow - no, I'm not 100% sure about anything. Feel free to read my earlier post I re-posted above with the scripture.

But, obviously, that doesn't mean I'm right or anything, as we all have to be Boreans and let the Holy Spirit help us search them.

When the time comes, I guess we will all find out when these things come to pass.

[Mark]

Anyhow - no, I'm not 100% sure about anything. Feel free to read my earlier post I re-posted above with the scripture.

But, obviously, that doesn't mean I'm right or anything, as we all have to be Boreans and let the Holy Spirit help us search them.

When the time comes, I guess we will all find out when these things come to pass.

how many demons come up out of the Pit?

[Psalm 51:17]

how many demons come up out of the Pit?

Did you read the scripture I posted previously?

The point I was trying to make is that it says the Rev beast in 11 and 13, and in 17:8 comes out of the bottomless pit. When the 5th trumpet sounds, Appolyon emerges out of the bottomless pit(the angel over the bottomless pit). This is also interesting b/c on that eagle seal on the dollar bill, if I understand this correctly, one of the signs it stands for is Appollo, which occult members anticipate to rise out someday.

Anyhow - both Mike Hoggard and Patrick Heron endorse the idea that Rev 9:11 is when the antichrist will emerge(Heron was on George Noory 2 years ago talking about this, and wrote it in one of his books). BTW - I'm surprised Noory had Heron on, b/c he largely has a bunch of kooks(Heron has born good fruit).

[Mark]

Did you read the scripture I posted previously?

The point I was trying to make is that it says the Rev beast in 11 and 13, and in 17:8 comes out of the bottomless pit. When the 5th trumpet sounds, Appolyon emerges out of the bottomless pit(the angel over the bottomless pit). This is also interesting b/c on that eagle seal on the dollar bill, if I understand this correctly, one of the signs it stands for is Appollo, which occult members anticipate to rise out someday.

Anyhow - both Mike Hoggard and Patrick Heron endorse the idea that Rev 9:11 is when the antichrist will emerge(Heron was on George Noory 2 years ago talking about this, and wrote it in one of his books). BTW - I'm surprised Noory had Heron on, b/c he largely has a bunch of kooks(Heron has born good fruit).

with out context the verses make no sense. sorry. The Antichrist is already on the scene before the Pit is opened. Also there are literally millions of demons pouring out of the Pit. No where in scripture does it say or even hint that Abaddon is the beast or antichrist or false prophet. Also Satan has the ability and freedom to travel anywhere he wants. I dont care who endorses it, they cant make it work in scripture. Abaddon is just the king of the Pit.

[Kilika]

I have to agree with Dok on this. From what I read, Abaddon doesn't actually leave the pit where it says the locusts (demons) are let loose. It just says that's who is the "king" over the bottomless pit. Abaddon is not to be confused with any of the anti-Trinity.

In other verses, we see that there are two beasts mentioned that rise up; one out of the earth, and one out of the sea. Neither of these are Abaddon.

While there are many demons, there is also somebody over the bottomless pit (Abaddon/Apollyon), and then there are two beasts, one The Antichrist, and the other is the False Prophet that makes an image to the beast, and to go with them, the spirit of antichrist, which every unbeliever has, which Jesus says has already gone out into the world.

While hesitate to say for a fact, from what I read in scripture, it appears to me that there is/will be a personality scripture calls The Antichrist, and another, his religious sidekick, The False Prophet. I don't see these as being some metaphor but real entities that will step forward in their time. So while some of Revelation is parable, much of it will literally take place. I believe where it's parable, scripture makes that known as in with the seven-headed beast and Great Wh*re.

As I've said before, this stuff, while very interesting, I believe it's not critical to salvation, just like whether or not theres a "rapture". One may end up least in the kingdom of heaven for teaching men wrong, it still doesn't exclude the believer from Heaven.

[Christian40]

I found this interesting (from a person i know)

Revelation 3:10 - I will keep thee from...

I want to talk about this for just a minute... This is also something that seems to be a big topic to prove pre-trib rapture to be the truth now days... However, When pre-trib believers talk to me about this or I ever hear them talk about this; they don't ever give me what the Greek says about this or whatever... However, I will give all the meanings of what I'm going to discuss...
 
Revelation 3:10
"Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, that shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth."

1. Lets look at the words keep thee from... Jesus says the words keep thee from, to John... Lets talk about this verse and not take it out of context and not assume what this means...
 
If you notice Jesus doesn't ever say, take thee out of... In John 17:15  Jesus says, " I do NOT pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. Jesus clearly says that He doesn't want us to be taken out of the world, but that God will keep us from the evil one... Jesus never contradicts Himself... If He said it in the gospels, then He is not going to contradict what He already said before Revelation 3:10

The word Keep in the Greek are: hold fast, keep, observe, preserve, reserve, watch, continue, guard, and keeping guard over.
The word from in the Greek are: out of, from, by, or away from.

If you have noticed I have given all the Greek meanings for Keep thee from INSTEAD of assuming what Revelation 3:10 means... Unlike the pre-trib believers have done when I have ever heard them preach about what they believe... Unlike what others have done I have given you all the meanings in the Greek for these words... YES, you could pick and choose what words that you want to pull from the meanings and make it mean what you want, but you have to be able to keep it in line with what Jesus said in John 17:15... Also, Pre-trib believers will use Revelation 3:10, but won't ever use what Jesus says in John 17:15...