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The Pre-tribulation Rapture vs. The Post-tribulation Rapture

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Author Topic: The Pre-tribulation Rapture vs. The Post-tribulation Rapture  (Read 3184 times)
Mark
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« on: December 22, 2011, 08:17:56 am »

This teaching has been taken down!!!!
find the audio here

http://currenteventsandbiblestudy.blogspot.com/2010/01/pre-tribulation-rapture-vs-post.html

The Pre-tribulation Rapture vs. The Post-tribulation Rapture–Part 1

Click Here for the Part 1 Audio
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=3824

The Pre-tribulation Rapture vs. The Post-tribulation Rapture–Part 2

Click Here for the Part 2 Audio
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=3819

The Pre-tribulation Rapture vs. The Post-tribulation Rapture–Part 3

Click Here for the Part 3 Audio
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=3814

The Pre-tribulation Rapture vs. The Post-tribulation Rapture–Part 4

Click Here for the Part 4 Audio
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=3807

PDF–Rapture: Pre Tribulation vs. Post Tribulation
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/wp-content/uploads/Rapture-Pre-trib-vs.-Post-trib.pdf
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 12:30:53 pm by Mark » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2011, 04:58:08 pm »

Personally, this particular issue doesn't interest me b/c to be honest, I myself isn't 100% sure which side is correct.

If I take pre-trib, I end up being a bit complacent thinking we will all escape every little chaos, so nada to be concerned about.

If I take post-trib, then all of a sudden I'll have fear for the upcoming Rev 13 beast, when my hope should be in our blessed Saviour Jesus Christ.

All in all, I find both sides to be in error(no, I'm not trying to knock anyone here who has either side).

For the most part, you don't hear nada of pre vs. post in today's church, b/c all they're concerned about is building up their offering plates and million dollar buildings. So it's as if they think they're in the process of building the kingdom of God here on earth.
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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2011, 05:16:47 pm »

I hear what your saying BA. Don't worry about it. It's not a salvation-critical issue. I mean if we are wrong as to when we meet "the Lord in the air", it won't affect the fact that we WILL meet Him.

Besides, there is no one certain event of rapture as it is. There is more than one single event anyway. Technically, it appears there are multiple raptures over time. Cold Fusion did a nice job of explaining it that way over at PPF.

Whatever the deal is, thank you Jesus!
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Christian40
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2011, 02:35:29 am »

Ok this is from Dr Johnson's PDF:

Quote
No man knows the day or hour, nor do the angels, including the fallen ones, and NOR will Satan himself or the Antichrist know the day or hour. God is sovereign and will come at a time "when ye think not." Satan will know that his time is short - but his time may be even shorter reign than he thinks.
Matt 24:44 - Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

If no man can know the day or hour that Jesus returns and we know there is a 7 year trib. (& that Jesus returns immediately after this 7 year trib. has ended) and with the abomination of desolation being committed at the midpoint of this 7 year period. If the time of the start of the Trib. is known and/or the time of the Abomination of Desolation is known, wouldn't it be easy to calculate the time of Jesus return by just adding 3.5 years a onto the time at which the Abomin.of Desol. is committed or just adding 7 years to the start of the Tribulation?

Bro. Scott - Even if we know the exact day and hour that Antichrist commits the abomination of desolation, which we may not know, I say it will still be impossible to compute the precise day or hour of Christ's return thereafter. Will it be precisely 42 months, a.k.a. 1260 days thereafter, as indicated in Rev. 12:6 & 13:5, or will it be the 1290 days of Daniel 12:11, or the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12; OR will the days be shortened as promised by the Lord Jesus in His Olivet Discourse:

Yet the thing is if there is a post-trib rapture then you will be able to know the timing of when the Lord Jesus will return at the end of 3 ½ years!

Quote
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, This argument is in error because: a. The ― wrath mentioned in this passage refers to the wrath of eternal judgment in hell rather than suffering through the Tribulation (see 2:5-10, Heb. 3:11, etc.)

Prove that the word wrath means eternal judgment in hell. There are verses that deal with God's wrath on sinners still alive in the KJV Bible.

Quote
Noah was not removed from earth during God‘s judgment but was protected through it.

Noah was removed from the earth and the ark was a type of Christ! And the flood waters meant that Noah and family were above the earth! and then he came back to earth after the flood waters receded. In Christ the believers are raptured above the earth!

Quote
Lot was removed from Sodom before God destroyed it.

Yes, but the place was filled with sodomites like today but Lot went to higher ground and did not suffer any wrath! So if Post-Trib people believe that the Church has to go through God's wrath with the lost world it doesn't make sense.

Quote
Jesus when describing the tribulation period states: Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This verse proves a Pre-Trib Rapture rather than a Post-Trib Rapture. The Great Tribulation is a period that the world has never seen before. I'm sure God will protect Christians before it.

Quote
Mark says: He didn't go back far enough in history, he only started from the 1800's and didn't mention other Catholic beliefs about the Rapture

Your right. The Church History back to the Apostles is far more interesting than what is presented in this PDF. Plus i notice that Dr Johnson got this teaching from Pastor Sam Adams who he is in team with. The email in the PDF shows Dr Johnson unsure about the Rapture and then Pastor Adams comes in with his own view and then that view is accepted by Dr Johnson and put in this teaching so now Dr Johnson is telling everyone that there will be a Post Trib Rapture. I'm a bit disappointed with this PDF.

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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2011, 03:11:30 am »

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Noah was removed from the earth and the ark was a type of Christ! And the flood waters meant that Noah and family were above the earth! and then he came back to earth after the flood waters receded. In Christ the believers are raptured above the earth!

Come on now! Really? That is about the silliest pre-trib claim I've seen yet. Noah and his family went nowhere but floated around in a boat during the flood, just like when the disciples went fishing and a "tempest" came up and they got scared, but Jesus was IN the boat with them, just like He is in our boat, our heart, to protect us.

Now if they had "left" the earth via a plane, I might by your argument that they left earth.

Sorry, I don't buy a pre-trib rapture. I lean towards there being more of a post-trib, but not totally post, but after mid-trib. We WILL go through at least some of the tribulation. Why else are we told to be of good cheer? Why are we told to not worry? If Jesus would take us out of the world before the great tribulation, then why tell us to not worry? Yeah, I'm just not guying pre-trib.
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Mark
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2011, 06:39:25 am »

Your right. The Church History back to the Apostles is far more interesting than what is presented in this PDF. Plus i notice that Dr Johnson got this teaching from Pastor Sam Adams who he is in team with. The email in the PDF shows Dr Johnson unsure about the Rapture and then Pastor Adams comes in with his own view and then that view is accepted by Dr Johnson and put in this teaching so now Dr Johnson is telling everyone that there will be a Post Trib Rapture. I'm a bit disappointed with this PDF.


yep, also that Sam Adams guy has put out stuff that the whole thing came from that Mcdonald woman. He doesnt seem to be a good source of information, and im quite taken aback that Scott would just take this guys word for something and not research it himself. Here is a link to absolute proof that debunks Scotts teaching on this. http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,1094.msg3074.html#msg3074

Its a real shame he didnt look into this at all, but just went off of Adams teaching which is wrong. Rome has taught against the rapture as far back as 431 ad. And again denounced it in 1516 both BEFORE Manuel Lacunza. Seriously how can you say that guy invented it when the Catholic church has been against it for over a thousand years? Here is the Catholic source. http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1005.asp

Another source, http://rainhadocanto10-evangelicalchristian.blogspot.com/2010/11/rapture-according-to-rome-by-bryan.html
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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2011, 07:14:20 am »

One thing's for sure, the antichrist has to be revealed FIRST. I'm of a post-trib view, but again, whatever your view is, the AC has to be revealed first according to 2nd The 2(Paul made this clear).

One thing that disturbs me a bit with the pre-trib view is that perceptions are the rapture can happen, let's say, 5 minutes after I posted this message, or anytime today, tomorrow, or next week.

Personally, I think before the tribulation starts, we could very well see SOME chaos in this country and on this earth, like a false flag nuke, Martial Law, the economy collapsing, civil unrest, etc. Like Kilika said, be of good cheer as Jesus has overcome the world.
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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2011, 07:21:55 am »

One thing's for sure, the antichrist has to be revealed FIRST. I'm of a post-trib view, but again, whatever your view is, the AC has to be revealed first according to 2nd The 2(Paul made this clear).

One thing that disturbs me a bit with the pre-trib view is that perceptions are the rapture can happen, let's say, 5 minutes after I posted this message, or anytime today, tomorrow, or next week.

Personally, I think before the tribulation starts, we could very well see SOME chaos in this country and on this earth, like a false flag nuke, Martial Law, the economy collapsing, civil unrest, etc. Like Kilika said, be of good cheer as Jesus has overcome the world.

Well that would also be a false view of the pre trib. The Trib starts with the signing of the treaty, so of course the AntiChrist will have to be revealed long before that. So you are given a very big window for the Rapture to happen.
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 07:36:05 am »

Speaking of Pastor Sam Adams, he's from Florida(which is also where Scott is from before he moved out due to the Gulf Oil Spill crisis) - both he, Adams, Slattery, and Derek Dreamer are all from this state, which is pretty much how they got to know each other(as they're all KJV-only, anti-501c3 watchers).

Dreamer admitted last year that he went from pre-trib, to post-trib, and now leans slightly back to pre-trib.
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2011, 10:29:57 pm »

Listened to the teaching today - Scott went over all the so-called "prominent" evangelicals that have been raising money all these years toward the "rebuilt" temple in Jeruselum, including the likes of Chuck Smith and John Hagee.

Seriously, they are raising MILLIONS for this, MAYBE in the billions...will the "rebuilt" Jeruselum temple cost THIS much?? IOW, if not, then where is all this money going??

Really, even if NOT ONE NICKEL gets funded towards this "rebuilt" temple, it will STILL get rebuilt b/c God will give it the green light in his timetable. Come on, there's nowhere in scripture where it says a certain amount of money has to be raised for it to get rebuilt. And I don't think it will cost millions either when it gets done.
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2011, 03:52:09 am »

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Seriously, they are raising MILLIONS for this, MAYBE in the billions...will the "rebuilt" Jeruselum temple cost THIS much?? IOW, if not, then where is all this money going??

This lack of discernment on the part of these "Christian Zionists" is that they are paying for a temple for the Antichrist while being as unaccountable as ever.

Quote
Dreamer admitted last year that he went from pre-trib, to post-trib, and now leans slightly back to pre-trib.

Like alot of Christians do myself included when new information was presented to me i became a pre-trib believer.
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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2011, 06:26:50 pm »

I must admit, I was post trib before listening to this four part teaching, now after listening to it and following along with the pdf, I am more than convinced that this pre trib rapture is yet another false doctrine.  Praise the Lord that Dr Scott has finally been convicted by the Lord to do a teaching on it, its been a long time coming and it was very well documented and presented.  I really pray that Dr Scott doesn't loose any listeners over this teaching yet instead people are swayed to be prepared to at least acknowledge the possibility of a post trib rapture and not caught unaware.  God Bless
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« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2011, 07:09:59 pm »

I must admit, I was post trib before listening to this four part teaching, now after listening to it and following along with the pdf, I am more than convinced that this pre trib rapture is yet another false doctrine.  Praise the Lord that Dr Scott has finally been convicted by the Lord to do a teaching on it, its been a long time coming and it was very well documented and presented.  I really pray that Dr Scott doesn't loose any listeners over this teaching yet instead people are swayed to be prepared to at least acknowledge the possibility of a post trib rapture and not caught unaware.  God Bless

Also keep this in mind - when things start to get really, really bad, please keep looking up to the Lord, and NOT keep hoping we will be wisked away soon.

No, I'm not trying to say which doctrine is correct, but nonetheless please keep this in mind when things really start to get back suddenly(ie-the dollar crashes out of nowhere).
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« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2011, 05:48:41 am »

I must admit, I was post trib before listening to this four part teaching, now after listening to it and following along with the pdf, I am more than convinced that this pre trib rapture is yet another false doctrine.  Praise the Lord that Dr Scott has finally been convicted by the Lord to do a teaching on it, its been a long time coming and it was very well documented and presented.  I really pray that Dr Scott doesn't loose any listeners over this teaching yet instead people are swayed to be prepared to at least acknowledge the possibility of a post trib rapture and not caught unaware.  God Bless

So knowing that the Catholic church banned the rapture in 400 ad and afirmed that the church would go through the trib not make you think for a minute? That is way before the Jesuits and Darby... There is a huge piece of the puzzle that was left out of this teaching, and you have to ask why?
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2011, 02:45:27 am »

yep, also that Sam Adams guy has put out stuff that the whole thing came from that Mcdonald woman. He doesnt seem to be a good source of information, and im quite taken aback that Scott would just take this guys word for something and not research it himself. Here is a link to absolute proof that debunks Scotts teaching on this. http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,1094.msg3074.html#msg3074

That link and the video is very clear to me.

Or listen to one or some of Bryan Delinger's 12 sermons about the Pre Trib Rapture:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?speakerWithinSource=&subsetCat=&subsetItem=&mediatype=&includekeywords=&exactverse=&keyword=kjvbbf&keyworddesc=Bible+Believers+Fellowship&currsection=sermonssource&AudioOnly=false&SourceOnly=true&keywordwithin=rapture&x=13&y=14
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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2011, 08:33:45 am »

Speaking of Sam Adams, if you guys don't mind that I take a step back from this debate, b/c Adams said(in Scott's PDF) that we're pretty much in times now where we may have to withdraw ourselves from the world system ala the banking/social security, etc systems. Kilika, if you don't mind me calling you out again, remember that thread you started a while back "ye shall be made free"(where we discussed how that "if ye shall not work, yet can't eat" passage does NOT necessarily mean you need to have a job to provide food)?

I emailed Pastor Adams, and he gave me this response...

Quote
Thanks for writing and listening. Two of my messages I recommend you listen to are "Servants of One Master" and "Is There Not A Cause."  I cannot give you legal advice, since I am not a lawyer.  The attached treatise is for educational purposes only, and probably needs to be updated.  Please do not forward to any third party.  Employee status will not work much longer.  You need to either be self-sufficient or have your own business.  Prayer & fasting is the key, with obedience; you will need the Lord's leading at every step.  It is becoming increasingly difficult to take this position

No, I'm not saying everything Adams says is 100% correct, but in light of what Adams, and Kilika brought up a couple of months ago, you can't deny the days ARE nearing the end, and we're going to have to be very discerning, especially with the Lord's guidance, over what and where we should yoke with. I mean it's come to a point now where a growing number of companies and businesses et al are helping to implement the mark of the beast.

Again, this has nothing to do with the pre vs post trib debate, but b/c Scott brought up his good friend Adams in the teaching, and combined with a thread being discussed about this a couple of months ago, I think this is something that needs to be discussed.

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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2011, 11:37:50 pm »

BTW, on another note, whatever happened to PPF's Amos? Remember when he started a thread calling out the pre-trib position(after Alex called this a big deception on his show)?

I certainly agreed with everything he said on this issue, but it came to a point in this long-winded thread when he started treating every pre-tribber with disrespect, and even called out Kilika for promoting this issue(when he made it clear he strays far away from even having a position on this issue).

Ultimately, he ended up beating a dead horse many times.
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« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2011, 03:25:39 am »

It's right here...

http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,208.0.html
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« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2011, 08:26:44 am »


Thank you! Now if you don't mind me copying and pasting what you wrote in the OP of this thread...

Quote
From Kilika...

"Art thou called [being] a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use [it] rather." 1 Corinthians 7:21 (KJB)


Considering the exhortations in scripture in relation to the end times and the "mark of the beast", this particular verse has been brought to my attention of the Spirit many times, and I must say I'm not sure how it relates to the end times, but I believe it does, it's just a matter of when it is really relevant. I believe iron does sharpen iron, so God willing the Spirit will gives us understanding on the matter.

From what I understand and believe, the body of Christ must at some point withdraw from worldly society, even jobs within society. And I must also say that I have a hard time with the body being servants of men in the world.

The above scripture does appear to say that "use" of a servitude can be done, but to what point and for how long and in what capacity is what I ponder.

We know that friendship with the world is emnity against God (James 4:4), so why is the body working in the world as servants to man? Is that exercising "use", or is that out of ignorance of scripture that the vast majority of people insist on having a job in society? Maybe even sent into servitude of men by the pulpits of the "Romans 13" false church? More importantly, what is Jesus telling people?


"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matthew 6:24 (KJB)


"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:33 (KJB)


"And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 (KJB)


"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39 (KJB)
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« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2011, 03:53:37 am »

No, I don't mind. Just post who wrote it so they know who to scream at if they think it wrong. Wink
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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2011, 07:38:55 pm »

Here's the video again...

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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2011, 07:43:56 pm »

Just to sum it up - the guy in the video debunks the 3.5 - 7 year futuristic tribulation with an AC/FP at the head, b/c he says that the Jesuits were the ones that came up with "futurism", when the Antichrist has been the Vatican/RCC system all along.

He did say that prior to the Lord's return, the Vatican/RCC will form a One World Church system(ie-the man of sin being revealed in 2nd The 2).

Whether you're pre or post trib, we can agree this doesn't make sense - if he really thinks the Rev 13 Antichrist is the RCC system, then why is he saying the RCC's final One World Church system is the "man of sin" described in 2nd The 2? Shouldn't he be consistent and say the "man of sin" has been this RCC system since the days of Constantine?

So it's as if he's saying the Jesuits invented futurism, but at the same time there will be a futuristic something(ie-One World Church system) prior to the Lord's return. Huh
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« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2011, 10:15:24 am »

Just my .02 cents.

It is possible tell something about a religion by it's enemies. That said, it is worth remembering the pagan

position on the rapture. If there was not going to be a pre or mid trib. Rapture of the Church, why would

the devil spend so much time promoting a pagan rapture? At the end of the tribulation a pagan rapture

makes no sense, only pre or mid trib Rapture of the Church would need to be explained away by the devil

and covered up with a false pagan rapture.


I have studied the Rapture fairly extensively, and I believe it is impossible to know for certain when it is

going to happen. Of course, this fits right in with no man knowing the hour. I do not consider this latest

teaching to be of significance.
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« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2011, 10:59:42 am »

Just my .02 cents.

It is possible tell something about a religion by it's enemies. That said, it is worth remembering the pagan

position on the rapture. If there was not going to be a pre or mid trib. Rapture of the Church, why would

the devil spend so much time promoting a pagan rapture? At the end of the tribulation a pagan rapture

makes no sense, only pre or mid trib Rapture of the Church would need to be explained away by the devil

and covered up with a false pagan rapture.


I have studied the Rapture fairly extensively, and I believe it is impossible to know for certain when it is

going to happen. Of course, this fits right in with no man knowing the hour. I do not consider this latest

teaching to be of significance.

This was discussed in another thread - David Bayes of cuttingedge.org was able to sneak into a Theosophy meeting many years ago, and Bill Howard, a high level Theosophist, talked about the future NWO plans. One of them being "disappearances" after the World Teacher(maitreya) emerges, and there would be 3 groups, 1) Those that would fall for the world teacher hook, line, and sinker, 2) Those that would remain undecided, and 3) Those that would NOT fall for the world teacher(the born again Christians, that is). It will be group 3, according to them, that would "disappear" into "another dimension", and supposedly they already have prepared an "explanation" for these "disappearances".

Howard went on to say that without group 3, the NWO plans will finally be able to be implemented without any "resistance". Now this is NOT what I(nor scripture for that matter) am saying, but this is what THEY'RE saying. Personally, I think these "disappearances" will happen b/c Christians(and maybe anti-NWO patriots) will be taken to the Denver Underground bases, but that's just me.

With that being said, 1) If there's a rapture, it won't happen until the AC gets revealed. 2nd The 2 clearly says the falling away AND the AC being revealed has to happen BEFORE the gathering of the saints at Christ's coming, so I'd be careful in putting in one's faith that the pre-eminent rapture can happen tomorrow(or for that matter after I post this message). and 2) Make no mistake too, false teachers don't come from the pre-trib camp only, but I've seen a share of post-trib false teachers as well. Take Arnold Murray for example - he just twists many scriptures in the bible to make it look like post-trib(ie-there are some OT prophecies that clearly talk about Jesus's FIRST coming that he twists as so). Or Ed Watson(most of you know the ordeal we all went through).

As for the 5 part video posted above - the guy in it said there's NO 3.5 - 7 year tribulation, but he did NOT refute it by backing it up with scripture. Overall, I actually liked the video, but at the same time, there were things he refuted but didn't back up with scripture.
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« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2011, 11:43:23 am »

As for the 5 part video posted above - the guy in it said there's NO 3.5 - 7 year tribulation, but he did NOT refute it by backing it up with scripture. Overall, I actually liked the video, but at the same time, there were things he refuted but didn't back up with scripture.

Agreed.  There were some things I did not agree with in the author's interpretations, but then again, he/she is only a man too. Wink
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« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2011, 02:10:55 pm »

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I have studied the Rapture fairly extensively, and I believe it is impossible to know for certain when it is

going to happen. Of course, this fits right in with no man knowing the hour. I do not consider this latest

teaching to be of significance.

Quote
As for the 5 part video posted above - the guy in it said there's NO 3.5 - 7 year tribulation, but he did NOT refute it by backing it up with scripture. Overall, I actually liked the video, but at the same time, there were things he refuted but didn't back up with scripture.


I have not watched the videos, what I consider insignificant is Scot's teaching. I would have to watch the

videos to comment on them.
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« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2011, 12:28:48 pm »

wow, he took this teaching down!!  Shocked flabbergasted!!! He should never have done this teaching, and now he takes it down because he doesnt want to defend Sam Adams position? Im really taken aback here.
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« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2011, 04:38:09 pm »

wow, he took this teaching down!!  Shocked flabbergasted!!! He should never have done this teaching, and now he takes it down because he doesnt want to defend Sam Adams position? Im really taken aback here.

I saw the site just now, but didn't see his reasoning for taking it down(although I saw it tooken down) - where did he give his reason? Huh
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« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2011, 07:16:40 pm »

I saw the site just now, but didn't see his reasoning for taking it down(although I saw it tooken down) - where did he give his reason? Huh

in the new teaching
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« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2012, 02:50:16 am »

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wow, he took this teaching down!! Shocked flabbergasted!!! He should never have done this teaching, and now he takes it down because he doesnt want to defend Sam Adams position? Im really taken aback here.

I was amazed too. What is the reason? I will have to see.

Hey Dr Johnson, do you look at this forum now and then to see what your listeners are saying?

To be fair there are some really great teachings by Dr Johnson, just this Rapture one was out of place.
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