End Times and Current Events

General Category => Bible Study => Topic started by: Christian40 on April 17, 2011, 01:15:52 am



Title: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Christian40 on April 17, 2011, 01:15:52 am
No i do not believe in the Gap Theory. Here are some sermons by Jessie Delewski on the Gap Theory:

Part 1:
In this sermon we begin a study on the gap theory. Does the Bible really teach that there was a huge span of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2? When and where did the teaching of the gap theory enter into the church? In the first part of this study, brother Jessie Delewski will answer these questions, and also prove that the "day-age theory" is unscriptural. You will plainly see that the day age theory is an unnecessary compromise that Christians make between the Bible and the ridiculous evolution theory. We truly must beware of "oppositions of science falsely so called." (1 Timothy 6:20)
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=36111424380

Part 2:
In this sermon we look at the meaning of the word "replenish". Does this word mean "to fill" or to "fill again"? Should we use dictionaries, or the Bible itself to define this word? What about the passage in Jeremiah 4? Are verses 23-26 really speaking about a "pre-Adamite earth"? Or are these verses describing another event?
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=3131113365010

Part 3:
In this message, Jessie Delewski covers the fall of Satan and how this event relates to the supposed "pre-Adamite fall" held by many advocates of the Gap Theory. You will see why this pre-Adamite fall of angelic beings, just doesn't line up with scripture!
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=41111138180


Title: Re: The Gap Theory Genesis 1
Post by: Christian40 on April 17, 2011, 01:18:33 am
Yes, we do agree that the theory of evolution is nonsense. Let me clarify one thing. When I said that evolution was the only reason for the gap theory and the day=age theory, I didn't mean that everyone who believes one of those theories has to also believe in evolution. I know that this is not the case, since I once believed the gap theory myself, while at the same time rejecting the idea of evolution. What I meant was that evolution is the reason the theory was invented in the first place. Before the theory of evolution became popular, nobody thought that the world was billions of years old. There was no reason to think that. But for evolution to work, it needs an old earth. When scientists started telling everybody that the earth was much older than they had previously thought, people believed them, because they were supposed to be the experts. So, to reconcile the biblical account of creation with this new "knowledge" of science, the gap theory was invented. Without the theory of evolution, the gap theory would never have existed.

One may that we know that the earth is old. I disagree. What we know is that it looks old. But why would God make a universe that looks like it's billions of years old, when it's really only a few thousand years old? It's really quite simple, and the first chapter of Genesis gives us the answer.
It takes about two years from the time a baby is born until it starts to say simple words. It takes even longer before a child can carry on an intelligent conversation. Yet, on the day of Adam's creation, God talked to him. A person isn't capable of reproducing until he's in his teens. Yet, on the day of their creation, God told Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply". Years pass from the time we sow seeds until the trees that sprout from them bare fruit. But when the newly created trees were only 3 days old, they were already baring ripe fruit for Adam and Eve to eat. All these things and more looked much older than they were, because it was necessary for them to have a certain level of maturity. Babies couldn't tend the garden or take care of themselves. Without mature plants, there would be nothing for people to eat. These things had to look old. So, what about the earth itself? Did it have to look old for things to work? Yes, it did. If you start with bare rock, how long does it take for soil to form? First, wind and water have to break the rock down into sand, then plants take root in the sand (no fruit trees though) and, when they die, they decompose and mix with the sand and eventually soil is formed. This process takes a very long time but, on the third day of creation there was already soil for the trees to grow in. The earth looked old. It had to so the rest of creation would be possible.


Title: Re: The Gap Theory Genesis 1
Post by: Christian40 on April 27, 2011, 03:34:43 am
Part 4:
This is the final part of the studies on the Gap Theory.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=426111551522


Title: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 17, 2013, 03:08:55 pm
http://www.gotquestions.org/gap-theory.html

Answer: Genesis 1:1-2 states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." The Gap Theory is the view that God created a fully functional earth with all animals, including the dinosaurs and other creatures we know only from the fossil record. Then, the theory goes, something happened to destroy the earth completely—some speculate it was the fall of Satan to earth—so that the earth became without form and void. At this point, God started all over again, recreating the earth in its paradise form as further described in Genesis.

There are too many problems with this theory to describe adequately in a brief response, not the least of which is that if something important had occurred between the two verses, God would have told us so. God would not have left us to speculate in ignorance about such important events. Second, Genesis 1:31 says God declared His creation to be “very good,” which He certainly could not say if evil had already entered the world via Satan’s fall in the “gap.” Along the same line, if the fossil record is to be explained by the millions of years in the gap, that means death, disease, and suffering were common many ages before Adam fell. But the Bible tells us that it was Adam’s sin that introduced death, disease, and suffering to all life: “as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” (Romans 5:12).

Those who hold to the Gap Theory do so in order to reconcile the theories of modern scientists who hold to the old-earth theory—the belief that the earth is billions of years older than can be accounted for by adding up the genealogies of man found in the Bible. Even well-meaning evangelicals have bought into the old-earth theory, handling much of Genesis 1 allegorically, while attempting to hold to a literal interpretation of the rest of Scripture. The danger in this is in determining at what point to stop allegorizing and begin interpreting literally. Was Adam a literal person? How do we know? If he was not, then did he really bring sin into the human race, or can we allegorize that as well? And if there was no literal Adam to introduce the sin which we all inherit, then there was no reason for Jesus to die on the cross. A non-literal original sin denies the reason for Christ’s coming in the first place, as explained in 1 Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” At that point, Christianity itself becomes a hoax and the Bible just a nice book of stories and fables. Can we not see where this type of “reasoning” gets us?


Genesis 1 simply cannot be reconciled with the notion that creation occurred over long periods of time, nor that these periods occurred in the space between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. What took place between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2? Absolutely nothing! Genesis 1:1 tells us that God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:2 informs us that when He first created the earth, it was formless, empty, and dark; it was not finished and not yet inhabited by creatures. The rest of Genesis chapter 1 tells us how God completed the formless, empty, and dark earth by filling it with life, beauty, and goodness. The Bible is true, literal, and perfect (Psalm 19:7-9). Science has never disproved anything in the Bible and it never will. The Bible is supreme truth and therefore is the standard by which scientific theory should be evaluated, not the other way around.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Highlighted in red is inserted KJV verses in place of other version verses this article uses.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 17, 2013, 03:41:10 pm
Gap creationism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_creationism

Excerpt:

Gap creationism became increasingly attractive near the end of the eighteenth century and first half of the nineteenth century, because the newly established science of geology had determined that the Earth was far older than common interpretations of Genesis and the Bible-based Flood geology would allow. Gap creation allowed religious geologists (who composed the majority of the geological community at the time) to reconcile their faith in the Bible with the new authority of science. According to the doctrine of natural theology, science was in this period considered a second revelation, God's word in nature as well as in Scripture, so the two could not contradict each other.[4]
 
Gap creationism was popularized by Thomas Chalmers,[5] a professor at the University of Edinburgh, founder of the Free Church of Scotland, and author of one of the Bridgewater Treatises, who attributed it to 17th century Dutch Arminian theologian Simon Episcopius. Other early proponents included Oxford University geology professor and fellow Bridgewater author William Buckland, Sharon Turner and Edward Hitch****.[4]
 
It gained widespread attention when a "second creative act"[6] was discussed prominently in the reference notes for Genesis in the influential 1917 Scofield Reference Bible.[4]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Free Church of Scotland (1843–1900)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Church_of_Scotland_(1843-1900)#Theology

Excerpt

Theology
 
Great importance was attached to maintaining an educated ministry within the Free Church. Because the established Church of Scotland controlled the divinity faculties of the universities, the FC set up its own colleges. New College was opened in 1850 with five chairs; Christ's College and Trinity College (1856) followed later. The first generation of teachers were enthusiastic proponents of Westminster Calvinism. This position was soon abandoned, as theologians such as Dr A. B. Bruce, Marcus Dods and George Adam Smith began to teach a more liberal understanding of the faith. 'Believing criticism' of the Bible was a central approach taught by such as William Robertson Smith. Attempts were made between 1890 and 1895 to bring many of these professors to the bar of the Assembly on charges of heresy, but these moves failed, with only minor warnings being issued.
 


Title: Re: The Gap Theory Genesis 1
Post by: Mark on July 05, 2013, 10:39:16 am
(http://www.answersingenesis.org/assets/images/media/cartoons/after-eden/20010820-2.gif)


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 22, 2014, 12:36:59 am
Mark, was wondering if I could ask you a favor.

Am listening to Greg Miller's latest sermon on the "gap theory" - I'm only about 1/2 way through part 1 - while he doesn't seem to believe the "gap theory" like these evolutionists and Steve Quayle/Tom Horn do, nonetheless he seems to believe that SOMETHING happened b/w verses 1 and 2(the judgment of the flood during Noah). IOW, he doesn't buy the whole young earth theory either.

Could you listen to at least part 1, and give me your thoughts over where he's wrong(or right)? Personally, while I know the basic deceptions of evolution, I'm not exactly very deep in terms of the knowledge of this deception. Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM1m2XMsDwg


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 22, 2014, 01:04:58 am
^^ OK, just finished part 1 - Miller says...

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Isaiah 45:18  For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

B/c Isaiah 45:18 says the Lord didn't create the earth in vain, it corresponds to Gen 1:2 in that this verse says the earth was without form and void, so therefore something happened b/w Gen 1:1 and 1:2.


2Peter 3:3  Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


He links 2nd Peter 3:4 with Gen 1:1, then says in 2nd Peter 3:5, the earth standing out of the water corresponds to Gen 1:1, and the earth in the water corresponds to Gen 1:2.


Like I said - I'm not very educated on the depths of the evolution deception, but was wondering if you could view at least part 1 for me, and tell me what you think. Thanks!


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 22, 2014, 01:09:51 am
One more note on part 1...he lists some of the gap theory teachers...

Peter Ruckman
J. Vernon McGee
Tom Horn
Gary Stearman
John Darby
Watchman Nee
Chuck Missler

Didn't recognize the rest of the list, but nonetheless these names are highly questionable(at best). McGee was anti-KJB. Horn is a Jesuit. Darby craftily embarrassed the pre-trib rapture doctrine. Nee ran a cult. Missler has ties to the Military Industrial Complex(among other things). Stearman claimed to be abducted by a UFO. And Ruckman is pretty nutty to say the least.


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Mark on February 22, 2014, 07:48:20 am
This Greg Miller guy has these 2 teachings in pdf form on his site.

http://bbfohio.com/transcripts/genesisgap1
http://bbfohio.com/transcripts/genesisgap2

Let me just say, he would give Steve Quayle a run for his money.

There is no gap at all. When God created the Heavens and the Earth in verse one, the Heavens were all of space and time here in our creation. NOT the heaven where the Lord Dwells. He already lived there and didnt have to create it.

Is Greg Miller a Hebrew roots guy? Because this is what they do. I have special knowledge of this Hebrew word and you dont so you have to listen to me. Please... ::)

Quote
You don't need the Hebrew to understand what this is saying, but just for your
information, the “toho” is the word “created void”, it's translated “void” in verse 2 in
Genesis 1, it's the same translated “not in vain.” It's the same phrase. It's the same thing.
God would not create things – He says, “not created in vain.” He didn't create it in void in the state of chaos, as we call it, “without form.” So we know that Genesis 1:2 is not the
condition that God created things in, because Isaiah says so right here. He says, “he
formed it to be inhabited.” That's referring to it being inhabited by “man.” You can't
inhabit what we see in Genesis 1:2. We can inhabit what we see in Genesis 1:1, as far as
we know, but in Genesis 1:2, it's uninhabitable. It can't be “habited.” (Laughter.) So, I want you to let that sink in. What does the Bible say? Really, most of this stuff is so simple, it just comes down to believing what you read. The Bible says God would not create things the way it looks in Genesis 1:2. So he didn't. Amen? (Amen!) He didn't!

The Lord did create it to be inhabited. Just not on Day 1 or Day 2 or Day 3 even Day 4.  ::)

I wouldnt follow this guy at all. Especially after that portion right there. I know what this word means and you dont. Scott and Brian both have mentioned in there teachings how these Hebrew Roots people do that all the time.  :D

Quote
This message is important for several reasons.
First of all, the Biblical doctrine of the Genesis Gap is important because it is BIBLICAL.
Much of what we read in the Bible will make no sense without the foundational truth
found in this doctrine of The Genesis Gap.

 ??? Dude its not biblical at all because it doesnt exist.

Quote
Secondly, this message is important because it is rarely being taught, today. We will
discuss in the message but just 50 years ago you would be hard pressed to find a
fundamental Christian pastor not teaching this truth. Such are the days when men will
not endure sound doctrine.

rarely taught? its taught by all the Steve Quayle's new age people out there. True Christians dont buy it, only the super fringe due because they also believe in aliens on other planets and in almost all cases evolution.

Quote
Thirdly, this message is important because, sadly, many who hold to the Young Earth
theory teach outright lies and distortions, falsely claiming that those of us who believe in
the Biblical doctrine of the Genesis Gap are making room for the belief in evolution and
many of these Young Earth theory teachers consistently lump Gap believers in with
evolustionits.

Lets get one thing straight here. The Gap Theory was brought into existence as we know it today with the pre adamite peoples, see next teaching, come from trying to fit evolution into the Bible. That is why your lumped in with them. Its better to just keep all the liars in one basket. And all of this stems from ONE Book. Earth's Earliest Ages by G. H. Pember. I have read this book, twice. It is a very well written book but Pember was trying to mix evolution in with the Bible. Doesnt work. He was lied to and deceived by the science of his day. The Book was written in 1876, so he did not have the knowledge from science that all of evolution was a big lie.

Steve Quayle and Tom Horn both promote this book as biblical truth. And this Greg Miller endorses those two. come on man...

Quote
The Young Earth Creation model. That things appear older than 6,000 years, God is not pulling – that'show they teach it! The Young Earth Creationists teach it that God is basically trying to trick people. Hemade things LOOK older than they were, but they're actually not. God's not – that's not his game!God's not trying to “trick” you. There's an explanation as to why things appear older than 6,000 years,because they are. If you understand the Genesis Gap, you have your answers

He must be a fan of Pat Robertson. Really? this guy teaches this stuff? Guess Angels fly in UFO's also.  ::)

Quote
Such are the days when men will not endure sound doctrine.


I will leave with this.

Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Exd 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

That last part was literally written in STONE by the Lords very finger. 

There is no gap, the Bible does not allow for it. Only people trying to mix some other belief with the Bible use the gap theory. Not all these people are bad they are just heretics for teaching non Biblical doctrines. Like the gap theory, or an old earth, or aliens in ufos, it just keeps leading you down the path until you believe the new-age belief. Look at Steve Quayle and Tom Horn. Both nice guys, the both put out some good teachings, but the teach way more false stuff. That is what Greg Miller is doing here, and from reading part 1 and 2 that is the direction he is heading. And i guarantee that when he gets his gap site up and 1 of the two free books will be Pembers.


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 22, 2014, 11:00:17 am
Thank you, Mark, for taking this time out to read and listen to this. :)

For the most part, I thought Miller was a little off in his sermon, and it showed when he started out saying how Christians CAN be demon possessed.(as we know from scripture, this isn't true at all - for the most part, if let's say Christians get into witchcraft, then yes, God will deal with us, chastise us, and scourge us. But that doesn't mean we'll get "possessed" at all - this is propaganda Churchianity has spread over the years) I dunno, but maybe he drank too much caffeine that morning(he did seem a little hyper throughout).

And yes, when he explained those verses in Genesis 1:1-2 and Isaiah 45:18, he started out saying, "But the Hebrew translation is..."(this is pretty typical Alexandrian brainwashing rhetoric from these "seminaries").

And like said above too, a lot of those gap theory teachers are suspect(not just Horn). Watchman Nee ran a cult, and he endorsed a lot of the Roman Catholic pagan practices. J. Vernon McGee has some heretical views himself.


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 23, 2014, 02:38:54 pm
Well, looks like Miller's hard-heartedness and stubbornness is starting to show through and through. Not just me, but he's attacking others on his YT comments section for merely reproving/exhorting him, and disagreeing with him. All of us(including myself) even made it clear that we find his sermons a blessing when we made our exhortations. But he's acting like we're lying and being dishonest in our exhortations.

Here's an exchange both I and he had on this comments section...

Me
Quote
A lot of those other gap theory teachers brother Greg listed are pretty suspect too.

Watchman Nee ran a cult(and endorsed pagan practices like contemplative prayer).

Tom Horn has proven to be a Jesuit(yes, he put out some good stuff exposing transhumanism that I liked, but nonetheless he's gone off the deep end promoting the RCC in recent years). Steve Quayle also promotes the gap theory, FYI.

J. Vernon McGee rejects the KJB, and has some questionable views.

Gary Stearman claimed to be abducted by a UFO(and has suspect biblical views as well).

John Darby made a mockery out of the pre-trib rapture doctrine(ie-the modern-day church system's rejection of the pre-trib rapture is largely b/c they think Darby somehow made it up).

Chuck Missler has ties to the Military Industrial Complex(among many other things), and he also endorsed Rick Warren.

Brother Greg, I've found your sermons a tremendous blessing week in and week out, but nonetheless wanted to reprove and exhort you that you are in error with this gap theory.

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Greg
Quote
Other than Kent Hovind (who now rejects the Pre-Trib Rapture), not a SINGLE major Young Earth teacher is a King James BIble believer.  Even Henry Morris took nearly the identical view as J. Vernon McGee (and we have posted a video of McGee that proves that, in case you are inclined to deny it) when compared to Morris' semi-famous statement on Bible translations.

Do you see how dishonest you are? Probably not.


Mark, aren't you a Young Earth believer who's also a KJB believer? Shouldn't you count too? ;) By any chance, other than Hovind, are you aware of any Young Earth teachers that are KJB believers?

Also, was wondering if you could post your thoughts in the comments section(and see how Miller responds).


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Mark on February 23, 2014, 03:53:36 pm
Bryan is pre trib, young earth and kjb. CF over on PPF is. You only need 2 witnesses to make a thing true.  ;D

I was listening to Bryans new teaching today when he was talking about Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God cannot lie. He just cant do it. So if there is a gap then that would make God a liar. So we have this from Greg Miller...

Quote
Now,... so that's all I'm going to say about the whole thing of “fellowship”. This isn't a
matter of your getting along with me or anybody else but it is a matter that, I believe that,
if you don't understand the Genesis Gap you won't be able to answer questions as you're
reading through the Bible. You won't understand things...

I'll refer to one of those things and that's the Fall of Lucifer. Without the Genesis Gap
and an understanding of this, you really don't have an answer for one major question and
that is this: How many of you have read the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden?
Genesis 3?

Did you know that sin existed before Eve sinned? Did you know that?

Because the way that that Young Earth Creationists teach it, you wouldn't believe that.
But if you READ it, Genesis 3, there is a serpent in the garden SINNING. Lying to Eve.
Deceiving her. Blaspheming. Adding to God's word. Deleting God's word. Perverting
God's word. Committing all of these different sins, including a liar who is pretending to
be a serpent when he's NOT.

All before Adam and Eve sinned. How'd that happen?

Seems to me that Greg is making the Lord out to be Liar. Wonder if that serpent is talking in his ear. But any ways he said that the serpent sinned first. Well did he? Did Adam and Eve even know what a lie was at the time? Thats funny because the LAW against lying wasn't given until 3000 years later. I know thats being a little presumptuous but lets see here.

The Lord gave only 1 commandment to Adam and Eve. Notice i didnt say the world or all of creation. Just Adam and Eve.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Thats it. 1 commandment. Dont eat of the tree of good and evil. Which they broke.

Now the Devil he wasn't bound by this 1 commandment. He already knew good and evil. He existed in the Lords Heaven before the Lord even made this creation. In Job 38 we are told,

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

SO here we see the Angels gave praise when the Lord created well creation. So as we can see here the Angels are outside of creation, they always have been. Adam and Eve were created inside this creation and is a part of it. Satan isnt. So how did Satan lie when there was no law against it?

Eve sinned when she ate the fruit. Creation didn't fall when Satan lied. Or when there was pride found in him. He came into this creation and lied to Eve and through Eves SIN, Adam sinned and then this creation was cursed.

If there was only 1 commandment given to Adam and Eve and they broke it, not the devil, because he already knew good and evil. So Gregs assertion that the serpent lied first is meaningless as for starters there was no LAW against it, and two there was only 1 law. And it wasn't about lying.

Now when did Satan fall? I dont know. What i do know is that the first law against lying came about 1000 years or so after the flood when the Lord gave Moses the law. Before that there was no law against it. Abraham lied about Sarah to Pharaoh. Yet he didnt brake any of the Law as it didnt exist then.

We know that in Job Satan is still coming to Heaven and conversing with the Lord about the people on the planet. Was he fallen at this point? Job happens sometime after the Flood. And we do not see Satan as we see him later. Also the law wasnt in effect at this time either.

SO Greg's assertion that Satan sinned first doesn't pan out when you read the Bible. Greg You are lying and deceiving people. As i stated out with, Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; He cant lie, and his Word doesn't lie. But Satan lies and is the father of it as we clearly see. Maybe you should really rethink what you are teaching and see if there is any pride found in you. Especially when you are now doubting and changing the word of God. Which is what the serpent did in the Garden and had Eve do and now you.

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Mark on February 23, 2014, 04:03:58 pm
Quote
Also, was wondering if you could post your thoughts in the comments section(and see how Miller responds).

hes very prideful, but im not getting into youtube debates. Plus cant he pick and choose the comments displayed? hes already dishonest, i doubt he is allowing all posts to be shown.



Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 23, 2014, 04:11:10 pm
Quote
hes very prideful, but im not getting into youtube debates. Plus cant he pick and choose the comments displayed? hes already dishonest, i doubt he is allowing all posts to be shown.

Just unsubscribed to his channel - looks like he's allowing all of the comments posted, but like said, he's all but insulting everyone(and calling them liars) that disagrees with him(like said, both myself and others that merely pointed out his errors have told him we've found his sermons a tremendous blessing. Yes, I really did).

Also - like said in a previous post in this thread earlier - he said at the beginning of this "sermon" how Christians can be demonically possessed. This is also another LIE out of Churchianity I've heard for many years, so that pastors and other leaderships can get control of their flocks.

With that being said - he must have forgotten about this, which is talked about in the pre-trib rapture passage in Corinthians...

1Corinthians 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Doesn't say anything about this man being Satan, does it? ::)


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Mark on February 23, 2014, 05:19:18 pm
One final post on this then im done.

Tts 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


Since God cannot lie and his word is truth, Greg is deliberately changing Gods word to make his lie. The same thing the serpent did to Eve in the garden. First he got Eve to doubt the Word then he got Eve to change the Word.

Quote
DOUBTGen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 CHANGEAnd the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


Same thing Greg did here.

In order to get his lie to work he has to get people to doubt the Word and then he Changes the Word.

Quote
DOUBTYou don't need the Hebrew to understand what this is saying, but just for yourinformation, the “toho” is the word “created void”, it's translated “void” in verse 2 in
Genesis 1, it's the same translated “not in vain.” It's the same phrase. It's the same thing.
God would not create things – He says, “not created in vain.” He didn't create it in void in the state of chaos, as we call it, “without form.”CHANGE So we know that Genesis 1:2 is not the
condition that God created things in, because Isaiah says so right here. He says, “he
formed it to be inhabited.” That's referring to it being inhabited by “man.” You can't
inhabit what we see in Genesis 1:2. We can inhabit what we see in Genesis 1:1, as far as
we know, but in Genesis 1:2, it's uninhabitable. It can't be “habited.” (Laughter.) So, I want you to let that sink in. What does the Bible say? Really, most of this stuff is so simple, it just comes down to believing what you read. The Bible says God would not create things the way it looks in Genesis 1:2. So he didn't. Amen? (Amen!) He didn't!

They only way this lie works is to first get people to DOUBT the Word and then CHANGE the word. Same as the sepent in the garden. Greg isnt a KJV believer, he is a serpent.

Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

amen!!


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 23, 2014, 05:46:13 pm
I only listened up to the first few minutes of his part 2 "sermon", b/c it just wasn't making any sense as he was going along.

Thank you for this - yes, when he started trying to make convincing arguments from minute 1, I'll admit I TOO started having doubt creeping into my mind. Then once I started ENTERTAINING all of this doubt, this was WHEN I started to accept his LIES as FACT. But like said, in part 2 he was really going off the deep end, so ended up turning it off(which was why I brought these questions on this thread).

Ultimately, there's a BIG difference b/w meditating on something, and over-questioning something in your head - the former is getting edification, but the latter you are getting into that ENTERTAINING the enemy terrority.

Also - there was a movie "Now You See Me" which I was on tv last night - no, not a movie I would recommend, per se. But nonetheless it was about a group of international bank robbers who called themselves "The Four Hoursemen", and they used magic tricks and other witchcraft manipulation techniques to deceive the world into what they were doing. At one point in the movie(and I'm paraphrasing here), one of these "horsemen" said that through entertainment, they put out lies and deception. Pt being that I'll admit, I ended up feeling "entertained" by Miller's gap theory expose, as I was going "Huh?".


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Kilika on February 24, 2014, 05:21:24 am
Quote
Bryan is pre trib, young earth and kjb. CF over on PPF is. You only need 2 witnesses to make a thing true.  Grin

Well, I heavily lean pre-trib, I believe the earth is not billions of years old as defined by carnal science, and I believe the true word of God that was intended to be passed down through the ages is found in the text of the King James Bible.

Looks to me you can add me to the list.  ;D


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Mark on February 25, 2014, 05:58:37 am
here is the email i sent Bryan to get his thoughts about this, thanx to Kilika for the email address.

Quote
Hello brother Bryan,

I notice that you promote Greg Miller on your YouTube channel. I was wondering if you were aware that he put out a 2 part teaching on his support of the Gap Theory? He had to change the KJB into his own personal interpretation to make his claim. In effect he made the KJB out to have errors and called Jesus a Liar.

The Bible is very specific that creation was 6 literal days long. Greg Miller has said in future teachings he is going into the Pre-Adamic civilizations that existed before Adam. This is also a false teaching, and im quite sure he will be changing the KJB into his own private interpretation again.

These types of teachings leads one into the new-age and develops a cult mentality, especially where he is giving his church his own private interpretation of the KJB by changing what words mean. This is what you find in cults. He is getting his church to doubt the Bible and then change the Bible, the same thing the serpent did in the garden.

here is part 1 of his teaching on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wM1m2XMsDwg

he actually transcribed this teaching into pdf's.
http://bbfohio.com/transcripts/genesisgap1
http://bbfohio.com/transcripts/genesisgap2

He says he is working on a site to fully devote himself to this belief, he said he will be offering free books and material to support this false idea. I would really appreciate any thoughts that you have on this please.

Thank You for your time
In Jesus name..

Mark


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 25, 2014, 10:55:23 am
Thank you for sending Bryan this email, Mark. Personally, when I listen to sermons, I tend to just try to "endure" it all the way to the end if they have some glaring errors in it(Yes, I'm THAT gullible). However, with Miller's particular sermon he did on the gap theory, I had to turn it off a few minutes into part 2 b/c it came to a point where nothing made any sense any more.

His true prideful colors came out when he was attacking people in his comments section(including myself) who MERELY exhorted him for the errors he put out(like said, we even told him that we found his sermons a tremendous blessing). This is the first time I've seen him act this way - ie, when he put out a video of Ronald Reagan supporting the KJB, I posted in his comments section all of the wicked things Reagan did(supported abortion, gun control, Police State, the Pope, etc), and he had no problems with my comments on this then.

Also - I emailed Scott over the weekend over concerns how Christians(including KJB ones) are getting duped into this gap theory that the likes of Quayle and Horn push, and he emailed me back a Word doc with a warning how the gap theory is a lie and being pushed.

Let us know what Bryan says.


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Mark on February 25, 2014, 11:03:18 am
Can you send me what he sent you?


Title: Greg Miller
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 08, 2014, 02:05:11 pm
Not trying to hijack this thread, but while we're on the subject of Greg Miller...

In the comments section in one of his latest video sermons, I replied to one of the posters who said how the pre-trib/future end times prophecies came from Rome - and responded to him how it's been OTHER deceptions(and NOT this) that Rome put out(traditions of music, xmas, ishtar, 501c3, etc), that ultimately has yoked all of the Apostate Baptist/Protestant churches under the umbrella of Rome. And this is what Miller responded to me in the comments section...

Quote
you are a terribly messed up person.  Having MUSIC is "traditions of men"?  Do you even READ the Bible?

Regarding your hang up with holidays, have you ever READ Romans 14?

Are you slandering Bible Believer Fellowship in IGNORANCE, as we are not 501(c)3, but we DO believe only the King James Bible.

Rome didn't originate the Pre-Trib Rapture, you LIAR.  They preach AGAINST it and denounce it.

Whatever you're smoking, put it down.

Well - to sum it up in a nutshell - when I pointed out music being "traditions of men", I meant how Apostate churches nowdays put TOO much emphasis on it(instead of moderately sing a mere couple of traditional hymns during fellowship). Miller really believes xmas and ishtar are TRUE Christian holy days? For someone who's a KJB-only believer, and sees all of the deceptions of the RCC? WOW is all I can say. And I never said anything to debunk the pre-trib rapture(as I've been a firm believer of it for a year now), and I also referred many times in his comments sections of other videos how I find his sermons/teachings a true blessing.

Ultimately, look at this man's pride and arrogance - I will say this...up until his sermon promoting the gap theory, he really fooled me b/c he gave alot of wonderful teachings/sermons(which were NOT ranting and raving, but going through line by line, comparing scripture with scripture), which were filled with alot of truth.

Ephesians 4:29  Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.


Title: Re:What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 10, 2014, 10:35:27 am
This is what Bryan is using as his Gap Theory answer.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?keyword=kjvbbf&keyworddesc=&currsection=sermonssource&SourceOnly=true&keywordwithin=gap+theory&x=0&y=0

The Gap Theory
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/36111424380/36111424380.mp3

The Gap Theory Part 2
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/3131113365010/3131113365010.mp3

The Gap Theory Part 3
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/41111138180/41111138180.mp3

The Gap Theory Part 4
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/426111551522/426111551522.mp3

It is a pretty in depth study and refutes the teachings of Greg Miller. 



Title: Re:What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 10, 2014, 12:12:56 pm
This is what Bryan is using as his Gap Theory answer.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?keyword=kjvbbf&keyworddesc=&currsection=sermonssource&SourceOnly=true&keywordwithin=gap+theory&x=0&y=0

The Gap Theory
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/36111424380/36111424380.mp3

The Gap Theory Part 2
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/3131113365010/3131113365010.mp3

The Gap Theory Part 3
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/41111138180/41111138180.mp3

The Gap Theory Part 4
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/426111551522/426111551522.mp3

It is a pretty in depth study and refutes the teachings of Greg Miller. 



Thank you - will listen to it later - the guy's name who doing this is Jesse(who was one of the brethren at Bryan's previous house church in PA). When Bryan was there, he and Jesse would occasionally take turns preaching - I only listened to one of Jesse's sermons, but doctrinally he seems OK.

Again, thank you - will definitely give this one a listen.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 10, 2014, 02:36:07 pm
Jessie preached this 3 years ago.

I just started listening to it now, and only listened to the first 6 minutes of it - it's at the 6 minute mark where Jessie mentions Greg Miller's thoughts on the gap theory(as they communicated via email). Apparently, Miller had these same views before as he does now.

And apparently too - there's many versions of the gap theory. Will give my thoughts on this sermon later when I'm done.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 10, 2014, 04:45:17 pm
Just finished the first 2 parts - yes, thus far, VERY in-depthed(made my head spin! :o ). It's also at the 39 minute mark where Jessie refutes Miller's belief that Jeremiah 4:23-26 was a prophecy about the Genesis 1:1-2 gap. Read this ENTIRE Jeremiah 4 chapter - this prophecy is to ISRAEL. It's amazing how people can craftily cherry-pick certain verses to try to confirm their own heretical beliefs.

Also, remember this warning from Paul...

2Corinthians 11:3  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 11, 2014, 01:23:53 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4V7WVE_ONQ&list=UU5k2gKT5wWo655t6XC7e-lg


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 11, 2014, 03:01:35 pm
Bryan makes a good point - why do these gap theory believers waste so much time and energy defending this(and attacking others that don't believe it - no, it wasn't just Miller doing it in Bryan's comment section), but en yet they don't use this time to confront NIV-apologists for attacking the KJB?

BTW - will have to wait until tomorrow to finish Jessie's last 2 parts - I don't know a lot about Clarence Larkin, but he certainly is incredibly deceived(or money greedy, take your pick). If he really thinks the earth ON ITS OWN developed itself for millions of years WITHOUT God's hand in that Genesis 1:1-2 "gap", then he is really DENYING God's power.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 11, 2014, 04:47:15 pm
Greg Miller's response, what do you expect from a heretic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I7HkMQ9C_g&list=UU9qvVv7aIzfoFrZwn88eTPw


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 11, 2014, 04:58:52 pm
You can tell these videos from heretics have an agenda when they do this one thing - play clips repeatedly(over and over again) like this. Again, Miller refuses to lay out his case to support the gap theory. And to boot, now he's dragging Peter Ruckman into this(like anyone cares what Ruckman thinks).


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Kilika on March 11, 2014, 06:44:40 pm
5  I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6  But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7  Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded?
1 Corinthians 6:5-7 (KJB)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 11, 2014, 07:09:11 pm
I personally blame BA2 for all of this. He got me to look into Greg Millers teaching, that prompted me to email Bryan and put him on the spot in an email. That in turn made Bryan change his email policy and to put out a video on his stance on Gap theory. That in turn made me to go public on a youtube channel, something that i hate to do, and call Bryan out on his stance on Greg Miller. This then caused Greg Miller to reveal his true self in his posts. He then called me out, which in turn forced me to confront him on Bryans channel.

Bryan then was forced to come out against Greg. And Greg to show his full serpent inspired self. Thus this is where we are. All BA2's fault.  :D

and we still dont have any new members.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Kilika on March 12, 2014, 05:19:11 am
Well BA, how does the underside of that bus look!  ;D


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 14, 2014, 02:25:07 pm
Just finished Jessie's 4 part sermon exposing the heretical gap theory - he did an excellent job exposing it by going through line after line, scripture after scripture.

Ultimately, the King James Bible makes it VERY clear that there's NO "gap" b/w Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - don't know where people like Clarence Larken are coming up with these ideas that there was.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 14, 2014, 02:35:57 pm
Gap creationism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_creationism

Excerpt:

Gap creationism became increasingly attractive near the end of the eighteenth century and first half of the nineteenth century, because the newly established science of geology had determined that the Earth was far older than common interpretations of Genesis and the Bible-based Flood geology would allow. Gap creation allowed religious geologists (who composed the majority of the geological community at the time) to reconcile their faith in the Bible with the new authority of science. According to the doctrine of natural theology, science was in this period considered a second revelation, God's word in nature as well as in Scripture, so the two could not contradict each other.[4]
 
Gap creationism was popularized by Thomas Chalmers,[5] a professor at the University of Edinburgh, founder of the Free Church of Scotland, and author of one of the Bridgewater Treatises, who attributed it to 17th century Dutch Arminian theologian Simon Episcopius. Other early proponents included Oxford University geology professor and fellow Bridgewater author William Buckland, Sharon Turner and Edward Hitch****.[4]
 
It gained widespread attention when a "second creative act"[6] was discussed prominently in the reference notes for Genesis in the influential 1917 Scofield Reference Bible.[4]

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Free Church of Scotland (1843–1900)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Church_of_Scotland_(1843-1900)#Theology

Excerpt

Theology
 
Great importance was attached to maintaining an educated ministry within the Free Church. Because the established Church of Scotland controlled the divinity faculties of the universities, the FC set up its own colleges. New College was opened in 1850 with five chairs; Christ's College and Trinity College (1856) followed later. The first generation of teachers were enthusiastic proponents of Westminster Calvinism. This position was soon abandoned, as theologians such as Dr A. B. Bruce, Marcus Dods and George Adam Smith began to teach a more liberal understanding of the faith. 'Believing criticism' of the Bible was a central approach taught by such as William Robertson Smith. Attempts were made between 1890 and 1895 to bring many of these professors to the bar of the Assembly on charges of heresy, but these moves failed, with only minor warnings being issued.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 14, 2014, 05:10:35 pm
I personally blame BA2 for all of this. He got me to look into Greg Millers teaching, that prompted me to email Bryan and put him on the spot in an email. That in turn made Bryan change his email policy and to put out a video on his stance on Gap theory. That in turn made me to go public on a youtube channel, something that i hate to do, and call Bryan out on his stance on Greg Miller. This then caused Greg Miller to reveal his true self in his posts. He then called me out, which in turn forced me to confront him on Bryans channel.

Bryan then was forced to come out against Greg. And Greg to show his full serpent inspired self. Thus this is where we are. All BA2's fault.  :D

and we still dont have any new members.

Well BA, how does the underside of that bus look!  ;D


"When the plain sense makes perfect sense seek no other sense" :)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 15, 2014, 09:22:39 am
Clarence Larkin and his book Dispensational Truth and his work on the Gap Theory has been thrown around a lot lately. I never heard of this book until this debate started, so i found a copy and down loaded it. Here is a free copy of the book, published in 1918 and revised in 1920.    http://ourbaptistheritage.org/userfiles/Dispensational-Truth-Clarence-Larkin.pdf

This book is still being published today, and let me say this. If this was first published today, it would be the laughing stock book of all creation and evolution debates. There is a reason i never heard of this book, or his theories. They are so outrageous and not even based in Science. Larkin just made stuff up that isn't based on Science, he didn't even understand the Science of his day. I cant see how anyone could use this book to make any king of claim to anything about creation.

He consistently uses the Revised Version instead of the KJB. He adds to the KJB and changes words and their meanings over and over again. Clarence Larkin is the forerunner of Steve Quayle and Tom Horn. He like them do not have a firm understanding of the Bible and like to mix their own beliefs and what they think it should say in with the Bible. I am so surprised that anyone uses this book as a defense of Gap Theory. Seriously. just amazed. And he admits that his whole reasoning for his belief in Gap Theory is so it can match up to the made up Science of his day!! Seriously!!!

Quote
But the "Word of God" and the "Works of God" must harmonize. There can be no conflict between the Bible and Science. Science demands thousands of years for the formation of the earth and all the time it demands is given to it in the sublime words of Gen. 1:1, "In the BEGINNING God created the heaven and the earth." This verse then covers the whole period of the formation of. the earth and its preparation for the habitation of man. pg 49 of the PDF

This is just crazy...  :o There is no Gap Theory, you have to either use a non JKB or you have to CHANGE the KJB. Period, even Larkin did it.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 15, 2014, 09:33:57 am
Quote
2. THE CHAOTIC EARTH
The creation of the "Original Earth" was in the dateless past. It was doubtless a most beautiful earth, covered with vegetation and inhabited with fish and fowl and animal life, and probably with human life. How long it continued in this condition we are not told, but an awful catastrophe befell it-it became "FORMLESS AND VOID, and submerged in water and darkness. Gen. 1:2. That it was not originally so we know from Isa. 45:18 (R.V.). "Thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; he is God; that formed the earth and made it; He established it, He created it NOT A WASTE, he formed it to be inhabited."

pg 49-50 PDF.

Larkins Book:  45:18 (R.V.). "Thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; he is God; that formed the earth and made it; He established it, He created it NOT A WASTE, he formed it to be inhabited."

KJB

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Quote
He created it NOT A WASTE
Thats not in the KJB. nuff said about this


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 15, 2014, 12:13:41 pm
Yeah, just going through the YT comments on a few videos I've watched recently - I'm very surprised(even shocked) to see how even staunch KJB people have embraced Larken - even one of those YT ministries(edwardpf123, one of whom Bryan endorses), says how Larken's contributions have been tremendous to Christianity b/c of all of the dispensational truth he has put out in his writings.

Yeah, at best, looks like Larken has made a career out of trying to plug a square peg in a round role. Yet another reason to avoid, avoid, AVOID all of these "Christian" BOOKS.

As for Larken being important b/c of all of the dispensational truth he laid out? Uhm...why can't born-again believers search it out for THEMSELVES in their OWN KJBs?

Galatians 2:4  And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 2:5  To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Gal 2:6  But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 17, 2014, 05:36:32 pm
Well, apparently, the Catholic Church/Jesuits SUPPORT the gap theory. Got this off of a YT comments poster(who's a gap theory believer himself, and a KJB believer)...

"There were also  number of early church father's who held to it, such as Origen, Aquinas,  Hugo St. Victor,1097-1141) Petavius (1583-1652),
Pereius (1535-1610)"

Yes, these men are Catholics/Jesuits - so I have no idea why this poster is lumping them with our early church fathers. ::)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 17, 2014, 06:17:57 pm
Quote
"There were also  number of early church father's who held to it, such as Origen,

THE WITNESS OF CATHOLIC HISTORY

     The next proof text put forth by Gapists is that the early Catholic theologian Origen (186-254), in his commentary De Principiis, surmised that the original earth had been "cast downwards" (Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1917, p. 342). This argument supposes much and proves nothing. In fact, let us look at the exact phrase Gap-ists refer to Origen speaking on the "foundation of the world":  Origen said, "This point, indeed, is not to be idly passed by, that the holy Scriptures have called the creation of the world by a new and peculiar name, terming it <greek>katabolh</greek>, which has been very improperly translated into Latin by "constitutio;" for in Greek <greek>katabolh</greek> signifies rather "dejicere," i.e., to cast downwards, ..."

     First of all, the Catholic Origin is incorrect that the meaning of the word "foundation," or "katabole" in the Greek, means 'cast downwards' as a simple study will reveal:

 

     The Bible Text uses "katabole," and NOT "kataballo," which is important! Strong's Greek Dictionary 2602. katabole katabolh katabole kat-ab-ol-ay' from 2598; a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception:--conceive, foundation. See Greek 2598; Strong's Greek Dictionary 2598 kataballw kataballo kat-ab-al'-lo from 2596 and 906; to throw down:--cast down, lay. See Greek 2596.  Although Strong's tries to connect the word katabole with kataballo the scriptures show differently by the usage of the words.

 

     The katabole word in the Bible is used eleven (11) times. Ten of the eleven it is rendered "Foundation (katabole)" of the world (kosmos). The eleventh time is it used spells out distinctly its new testament use and meaning - conception!  Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive (katabole) seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
 

     Second of all, Origen didn't teach the Gap theory (although he believed in other worlds beginning and ending) and explains his position in the very same works "De Principiis."  He wrote: "The particular points(1) clearly delivered in the teaching of the apostles are as follow:-- First, That there is one God, who created and arranged all things, and who, when nothing existed, called all things into being--God from the first creation and foundation of the world --the God of all just men, of Adam, Abel, Seth, Enos, Enoch, Noe, Sere, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the twelve patriarchs, Moses, and the prophets; ...This also is a part of the Church's teaching, that the world was made and took its beginning at a certain time, and is to be destroyed on account of its wickedness. But what existed before this world, or what will exist after it [alluding to the new Earth in Revelation.], has not become certainly known to the many, for there is no clear statement regarding it in the teaching of the Church. ...[ORIGEN, DE PRINCIPIIS. PREFACE.4.]  Origen continues: 1. And now, since there is one of the articles of the Church[10] which is held principally in consequence of our belief in the truth of our sacred history, viz. that this world was created and took its beginning at a certain time, and, in conformity to the cycle of time decreed to all things, is to be destroyed on account of its corruption, there seems no absurdity in re-discussing a few points connected with this subject. And so far, indeed, as the credibility of Scripture is concerned, the declarations on such a matter seem easy of proof. Even the heretics, although widely opposed on many other things, yet on this appear to be at one, yielding to the authority of Scripture. ... nevertheless the language of the narrator shows that all visible things were created at a certain time. [ORIGEN, DE PRINCIPIIS. CHAP. V.--THAT THE WORLD TOOK ITS BEGINNING IN TIME.]

     This is the BEST argument from this era that the Gap-ist can come up with? (The witness may step down - no further questions!)

http://www.truthontheweb.org/gapclose.htm

here is the rest of the guys...

Coming to Grips with the Early Church Fathers’ Perspective on Genesis

http://godandscience.org/youngearth/genesis_days_church_fathers.html


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 17, 2014, 09:51:43 pm
Thank you for this info, Mark - this "gay theory" nonsense is not only a doctrine of devils, but it's been craftily used to divide the brethren as well(ie-as I saw from all of the YT comments discussion - it wasn't just Miller). For the most part, these "gay theory" believers try to rationalize how "We shouldn't let this issue divide the brethren, whether you believe it or not". Kinda see the craftiness on their part? It's as if they know this is a heresy, but they don't want to admit it(so therefore they don't want to discuss it, and ultimately get more believers to fall for it).

I read Genesis 1 again the other night - just from this chapter ALONE, even a kindergardener should be smart enough to see that the earth was made in SIX days.

Genesis 2:2  And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3  And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 19, 2014, 06:37:21 pm
Ephesians 4:14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16  From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Aussie Micha on March 20, 2014, 02:17:35 am
 I'm starting to lean to the theory that the Earth is old, but creation of humans and animals is around the 6-7,000 year mark.  :o

It makes sense to me.  ;)

Please be gently in your responses, as I'm not looking for a debate, but some sharing.  :-*



This below is what made me sit up and take note-


http://www.kjv1611.o...ESTABLISHED.htm

 

The creation in Genesis 1 was described as renewal :

 

Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are CREATED: and  thou RENEWEST the face of the earth. (Psalm 104:24-30 KJV)

 

 

Lucifer was in the garden of Eden (Ezk 28:13-19) as an anointed cherub. However, in Gen 3 he appeared as a serpent. Are these two Gardens of Eden the same? Something must have happened between the sinless cherub and the sinful serpent.

 

Ezk 28:13 says, "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God..." past tense. This could mean the temptation with Eve, or it could mean Lucifer in Eden before he fell and became Satan. The latter is the more likely scenario, which would also lend credence to the gap theory. Then after that, verse 14 then calls him the anointed cherub: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth".... God speaking to him directly in the present tense. So he was an anointed cherub in the original Garden of Eden. Then after the rebellion of Lucifer, Lucifer was transformed (as a punishment) into Satan, the evil has already been “created” when the serpent appeared to Eve.

 
So when do you guys believe that Lucifer fell? In the six days of creation, or before that?
 

 

In the creation account, every word was positive, EXCEPT the words in Gen 1:2. Something must have happened between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.

“Without from and void”: These words always refer to “emptiness”, “uselessness” or, “worthlessness”, that is to say, a confused, chaotic state, usually the result of some cataclysm, and often one that has been brought on by divine judgment:

Void:

Word study on “void” shows that the word “void” is always used in a negative sense. Usually, it is connected with something against God’s will.

 

 

The presence of the heavens and earth in place at Genesis 1:3 shows this is re-creation:  As God begins to work on the earth in Genesis 1:3, earth (and the heavens in which it exists) is already in place (an impossibility unless this is a re-creation).

b.  The presence of the angels during the seven days shows this is re-creation:  The angels are present too (also necessarily having been created at some earlier time – before the Genesis Gap – an impossibility unless this is re-creation), “shouting for joy” at the reconstruction of the earth (Job 38:4-7).  “Sons of God” (Gen 6:2, Job 1:6, 2:2, 38:7) clearly refers to the angels. Now, Job 38:7 says that when God was creating the universe, angels were there already. Thus God must have created these angels before the creation of the earth in Gen 1:2.

 

 

Also *according* to the website-

 

The Gap theory can be traced back 2700 years to the Jewish Rabbis.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

Psalms 102:25, “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.”

 

 

 

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 
I found this in my search about the Gap-
 

C.H. Spurgeon Calls "Answers in Genesis" to Repentance

http://www.youtube.c...hORe07rA-g#t=10

 

 Answers in Genesis is giving men an excuse. Dishonest apologetics and creation science brings disgrace to Christianity and fuels Atheism.

 

Apparently, the young-Earth organization Answers in Genesis doesn't want its readers to know that 19th century preacher Charles Spurgeon had no problem with an Earth that is millions of years old.

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmmm........ I hate to think that this could be a possibility!  How much damage have the YEC caused *if* they are wrong? Imagine how many scientist would now be believers if OEC was taught and funded as much as YEC is.  ??? ??? ???
Most scientist think they would have to believe in a young earth creation if they convert to Christianity etc.... Think about how the devil could be using this to his advantage, and making us Christians appear totally of the rails with all their scientific evidence proving of an old earth..... Just a thought!


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Aussie Micha on March 20, 2014, 02:31:20 am
This site has many great articles, and youtubes, and a few conversion testimonies from being YEC to OEC


http://thegapfact.m.webs.com/site/mobile?dm_path=%2F&fw_sig_session_key=7e5a35158818a5bc6b9da64d041a1a8342f24b5a1099874c693b25ca7fffeba6-72566980&fw_sig_permissions=none&fw_sig_potential_abuse=1&fw_sig_api_key=522b0eedffc137c934fc7268582d53a1&fw_sig_time=1394178648523&fw_sig_premium=0&fw_sig_site=72566980&fw_sig_locale=en-US&fw_sig_access_token=a37f3dfe3096bb2b01545ac3d8c5bfe34003b180&fw_sig_url=http://thegapfact.webs.com/&fw_sig_tier=0&fw_sig_is_admin=0&fw_sig_permission_level=0&fw_sig_social=1&fw_sig=c9cdb220e6c76673898482fe6c38a445&fb_sig_network=fw#1022


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Aussie Micha on March 20, 2014, 02:39:09 am
This site has many great articles, and youtubes, a chart (to make it visional) and a few conversion testimonies from being YEC to OEC-


http://thegapfact.m.webs.com/site/mobile?dm_path=%2F&fw_sig_session_key=7e5a35158818a5bc6b9da64d041a1a8342f24b5a1099874c693b25ca7fffeba6-72566980&fw_sig_permissions=none&fw_sig_potential_abuse=1&fw_sig_api_key=522b0eedffc137c934fc7268582d53a1&fw_sig_time=1394178648523&fw_sig_premium=0&fw_sig_site=72566980&fw_sig_locale=en-US&fw_sig_access_token=a37f3dfe3096bb2b01545ac3d8c5bfe34003b180&fw_sig_url=http://thegapfact.webs.com/&fw_sig_tier=0&fw_sig_is_admin=0&fw_sig_permission_level=0&fw_sig_social=1&fw_sig=c9cdb220e6c76673898482fe6c38a445&fb_sig_network=fw#1022


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Kilika on March 20, 2014, 03:20:04 am
Why did you quote your own post?  :-\

Looks like you been off the beaten path reading some rather, uh, questionable stuff.

And you definitely are getting conflicting info if your actually considering there to be two Edens!

Quote
Lucifer was in the garden of Eden (Ezk 28:13-19) as an anointed cherub. However, in Gen 3 he appeared as a serpent. Are these two Gardens of Eden the same? Something must have happened between the sinless cherub and the sinful serpent.

There is just one Garden of Eden. Your being played by people through their own play on words. You Do realize Satan and Lucifer are one and the same entity don't you? Just different names, same creature.

But seeing you bring it up...

Quote
Something must have happened between the sinless cherub and the sinful serpent

Yes, something did happen...

"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Ezekiel 28:15 (KJB)

Evil "was found" in Lucifer, who was perfect in it's ways till iniquity suddenly shows up? THAT is a problem. How is it that it was perfect in it's ways then suddenly not perfect? What God makes doesn't break, does it? How can good turn bad? Definitely some serious issues there, and I think is one of the most important questions about scripture that some people point to as proof the bible isn't true, that it has man's hands all over it. Goes in the same group of questions about scripture as a few others.

The serpent in the garden was already evil, so that means the iniquity that was found in Lucifer was already found by the time of the garden.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 20, 2014, 05:07:47 am
I'm starting to lean to the theory that the Earth is old, but creation of humans and animals is around the 6-7,000 year mark.  :o

It makes sense to me.  ;)

Please be gently in your responses, as I'm not looking for a debate, but some sharing.  :-*

There is no GAP, period. The Earth isnt old and then God created man on a whimsey thousands of years later. He tells us right here in the 10 commandments.

 Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

6 days, thats it. The Lord actually did write that in stone. What the gap theory does it gets you to doubt the Bible and then Change the Bible. This is satans oldest trick, been doing it since well, creation.

Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


Its not that hard to see this deception. Gap theory is to get you to doubt Gods words. Once that happens anything is possible.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 20, 2014, 05:09:14 am
It makes sense to me.  ;)

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Made sense to her too.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 20, 2014, 05:15:28 am
Quote
Apparently, the young-Earth organization Answers in Genesis doesn't want its readers to know that 19th century preacher Charles Spurgeon had no problem with an Earth that is millions of years old.

Most people from that time believed in a gap theory, because they believed the lies they were told about evolution.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


Spurgeon believed a LIE, and had to reconcile the religion of Evolution with the Bible. The two dont mix, not at all. He got out of the Word, and into the World. There is NO gap theory in the Bible. You have to doubt and change the Bible to get one. 


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 20, 2014, 11:27:12 am
Quote
Spurgeon believed a LIE, and had to reconcile the religion of Evolution with the Bible. The two dont mix, not at all. He got out of the Word, and into the World. There is NO gap theory in the Bible. You have to doubt and change the Bible to get one. 


Spurgeon also had a Historcism eschatology view on Daniel/Revelation(meaning that he didn't believe in the proper FINAL 7 years great tribulation eschatology view, but rather believed the Pope was the Antichrist, and the prophecies in Revelation happened over time during the Church Age).

He also had some pretty big doctrinal issues - I've read some of his quotes, and to sum it up in a nutshell: He believed in a works-based salvation.
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,9474.0.html

Why he was put up on a pedestial like this - but one thing's for certain - this Apostasy leading up to the end times has SLOWLY but surely sown/reaped, and is now reaping at a very fast pace now.

Other than that, yet another reason to not trust in men.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Kilika on March 20, 2014, 01:01:21 pm
Quote
Apparently, the young-Earth organization Answers in Genesis doesn't want its readers to know that 19th century preacher Charles Spurgeon had no problem with an Earth that is millions of years old.

I'm slightly confused about this site, "Answers in Genesis".

Do you consider them reputable or not? Here you seem to show them in a negative way, then in another thread about Eden, it seems like you support their positions.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 20, 2014, 01:06:30 pm
I'm slightly confused about this site, "Answers in Genesis".

Do you consider them reputable or not? Here you seem to show them in a negative way, then in another thread about Eden, it seems like you support their positions.

thats not my quote, i responded to that quote


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Kilika on March 20, 2014, 01:25:18 pm
 ::) I know that! I'm not saying it's your quote. I'm asking you what you think of that site.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 20, 2014, 01:36:07 pm
::) I know that! I'm not saying it's your quote. I'm asking you what you think of that site.

i agree with a lot that site has to say. Other stuff not so much. Same with anything. all depends


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Kilika on March 20, 2014, 01:46:47 pm
Okay.  ;)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Aussie Micha on March 21, 2014, 01:20:41 am
Quote
Why did you quote your own post?  Undecided

Ever heard of making a mistake?  ::)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Aussie Micha on March 21, 2014, 01:21:48 am
Do you guys have to pick on others just because they believe differently to you?  ???

Quote
You Do realize Satan and Lucifer are one and the same entity don't you? Just different names, same creature.

Of course, I do read the KJV.  ;)


Quote
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Made sense to her too.


So are you putting me into her category? Like it's serious, like a salvation issue?  :-\ 


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Kilika on March 21, 2014, 03:51:05 am
Ever heard of making a mistake?  ::)

Testy, testy! Who spilled your cereal?

Instead of you getting defensive, you should remember that the trying of your faith "worketh patience".

Quote
Do you guys have to pick on others just because they believe differently to you? 

No one here is picking on anybody! That's childish petty antics. We don't play that here. It's about the truth as best we know it.

Sorry if your offended by being challenged in your understandings of doctrine. A believer's whole life in the flesh is a challenge. Get over it! Being a believer in the world, you better grow thicker skin than that!

Quote
So are you putting me into her category? Like it's serious, like a salvation issue? 

Like totally.  ::) Really? I think your better educated than that.

Salvation issue? What? Because you have incorrect understandings? Depends. If your already saved, it's not an issue, unless you believe a person can lose their salvation.

Personally, I'd put you in that category, because the false doctrines you have accepted from false teachers is the same as what Eve did in the garden, exactly. You took the forbidden fruit from false teachers and ate it when God told you to stay away, and stick only to His Word and to trust what God says, yet you were tempted by other doctrines anyway.

THAT is where I agree with Mark. Yes, same category.

It's nothing to be offended about, just something you need to realize, that NONE OF US have all the correct doctrines brought to our awareness because we cannot handle it while in the flesh. But we all have the "mind of Christ" that seals us, forever, and eventually, we all will see everything and know everything, but not yet.

What does happen is that believers bear one another's burdens in helping each other with sound doctrine. You don't agree, shake the dust off and depart out of that city! Not going to hurt or offend anybody here. Whether you or anybody else is here posting, we are still saved. Thank you Jesus!

You have a choice how you respond to people who correct you doctrinally. Humility or pride. You choose.

I recommend you find some humility.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 24, 2014, 11:36:38 pm
Concerning creation
Gap theory in 1814 Thomas Chalmers - this is likely why he fell for it...

RSV Genesis 1:5,8
God called the light day and the darkness he called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

KJV
And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

RSV
And god called the firmament heavan. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

KJV
And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

This is likely why modern-day Christians believe in evolution.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 25, 2014, 05:16:55 am
Concerning creation
Gap theory in 1814 Thomas Chalmers - this is likely why he fell for it...

RSV Genesis 1:5,8
God called the light day and the darkness he called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

KJV
And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

RSV
And god called the firmament heavan. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

KJV
And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

This is likely why modern-day Christians believe in evolution.

EXACTLY, You have to use a different Bible or change the KJB in order to make gap theory work. This is nothing but the same thing the serpent did to Eve in the Garden, nothing more.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Christian40 on June 22, 2014, 05:55:43 am
Mike Hoggard on the Gap Theory Watch 1:33:15 to 1:44:12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGBENgyxt98&list=UU6ZZQy8BmOktnOvk57TqBcA&index=2


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 24, 2014, 11:38:54 pm
The modern Gap theory may have originated in recent centuries but the belief in a civilization that pre-dates man is very old. It`s found in the mythology and ancient religeons of all cultures. So it`s a really old idea.

Myself, I like contemplating Biblical mysteries as well as mysteries of the world. I don`t think believing in a gap theory or not believing it has any impact on salvation. For that reason I`m not inclined to cast stones at anyone on either side of the issue.

Calling it a theory is an admission that it isn`t and/or can`t be proven. If you like that sort of thing it`s worthwhile to look at as an issue. In studying what the Bible says about the angels some questions are raised and these are fun to look at.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Christian40 on September 25, 2014, 04:44:58 am
Myself, I like contemplating Biblical mysteries as well as mysteries of the world. I don`t think believing in a gap theory or not believing it has any impact on salvation. For that reason I`m not inclined to cast stones at anyone on either side of the issue.

i dont believe it will impact your salvation but it will impact whether you believe the Bible or not. If Satan can get you to believe things that are unscriptural then that is the first step he will then try you on other verses to make you doubt or not believe, it is a path that goes downhill this whole gap theory that the Earth is millions of years old is very subtle, plus Satan likes to get into our imaginations to turn us away from the truth, eg the modern video games industry which in sales is larger than Hollywood. If the Earth was millions of years old wouldnt the Bible be more clearer about it? No the Earth is only about 6000 years old according to Genesis 1 and 2. You dont have to understand everything one can just believe the Bible. Not trying to cast stones just saying my point of view.

Calling it a theory is an admission that it isn`t and/or can`t be proven. If you like that sort of thing it`s worthwhile to look at as an issue. In studying what the Bible says about the angels some questions are raised and these are fun to look at.

What does one want to know?


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 25, 2014, 06:28:43 am
i dont believe it will impact your salvation but it will impact whether you believe the Bible or not. If Satan can get you to believe things that are unscriptural then that is the first step he will then try you on other verses to make you doubt or not believe, it is a path that goes downhill this whole gap theory that the Earth is millions of years old is very subtle, plus Satan likes to get into our imaginations to turn us away from the truth, eg the modern video games industry which in sales is larger than Hollywood. If the Earth was millions of years old wouldnt the Bible be more clearer about it? No the Earth is only about 6000 years old according to Genesis 1 and 2. You dont have to understand everything one can just believe the Bible. Not trying to cast stones just saying my point of view.

What does one want to know?


If we are being led by and are following after the Holy Spirit then we will always be in a process of being led into truth. People get snared into false doctrine when they make a decision that they know it and no longer need to grow in the knowledge and wisdom of God.

As an example and I mean no malice in saying this, you say the earth is 6000 years old as a fact,which would make its creation date in the mid 3880`s BC. I think that to be an untenable position both Biblically and otherwise. As proof you are citing Genesis 1 and 2. Show me where the Bible states it.

The belief that God gave man exactly 6000 years is man made doctrine. There are no references to support this view and you were influenced to believe it by a person/persons because no one comes to such a conclusion by studying the Bible. It`s very easy to believe things like this if you don`t question and seek as the Bereans did in the book of Acts.

As to the question "what does one want to know". Well I wanted to know if there is a time gap as the Gap theory claims.

I haven`t a clue what the gap theory says or for that matter what the theory of evolution says. I haven`t read anything of that nature in many years and I tend to forget man made theology fairly quickly.

But some years ago I considered the possiblity of a time gap as part of a larger Bible study on angels and what I might do if you are interested is present the Biblical evidence and logic behind the concept for your consideration.

I saw on this thread somewhere where someone stated that Genesis 1:2 occurs one day after Genesis 1:1. If someone believes that then they believe in a time gap albeit a small one   ;D





Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 25, 2014, 08:35:53 am
i dont believe it will impact your salvation but it will impact whether you believe the Bible or not. If Satan can get you to believe things that are unscriptural then that is the first step he will then try you on other verses to make you doubt or not believe, it is a path that goes downhill this whole gap theory that the Earth is millions of years old is very subtle, plus Satan likes to get into our imaginations to turn us away from the truth, eg the modern video games industry which in sales is larger than Hollywood. If the Earth was millions of years old wouldnt the Bible be more clearer about it? No the Earth is only about 6000 years old according to Genesis 1 and 2. You dont have to understand everything one can just believe the Bible. Not trying to cast stones just saying my point of view.

What does one want to know?


Correct - from what I understand, the whole gap theory heresy was made up in the 1800's, BEFORE the theory of evolution was put out.

IOW, the gap theory not only targeted Christians for deception, but it eventually opened the doors for more deception like this evolution nonsense(and subsequently Clarence Larkin in the 20th century pushed this gap theory, where he said there was millions of years of a "gap" b/w verses 1 and 2 - he used the perverted Revised Standard Version bible to make his claims to boot).

Yes, as Christians we all get deceived - but at the same time it's very important that we do NOT let our guards down and allow those Trojan Horses to creep through.

1Peter 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 25, 2014, 07:17:55 pm
I didn`t see a response to my last post so I`ll proceed on this gap thing.

Let me say first that I`m not out to attack anybody, not interested in defending gap theory, old earth theory, or evolution theory. I don`t know much about any of those things.

But I believe the Bible indicates a time gap between the first 2 verses of the Bible. It`s impossible to say how long of a gap. I haven`t a clue how long the gap was. I just know and believe there was one and I will offer my Biblical proof that demonstrates it.

First thing is the word heaven. When the bible says heaven it could mean the atmosphere which is called the firmament in scripture. Or it could mean the place in the spirit world where God lives. Since Genesis 1:1 says God made the heaven and the earth we have to know which heaven the verse is talking about.

I rule out the firmament heaven on the following basis.

) If the verse is talking about the firmament then the order is wrong.God made the earth before he made the firmament so it should say "In the beginning God made the earth and the firmament" if that`s what it means.

2) the firmament is part of the earth so there is no reason to make the distinction between the two. It would just say "In the beginning God made the earth."


So it is my belief that the heaven in Genesis 1:1 is the spirit world which was made first, then the earth.

The scriptures are always logical and follow an order of things. Off the top of my head I can think of no instance where they deviate from logic and order. If you know of one feel free to share it with me.

As further proof, I offer these verses from Job 38

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Here we see God creating the earth. At this point the angels have already been created and are watching.
The angelic creation clearly predates the creation of the earth.

On a side note: verse 7 says the morning stars sang together. The only other reference of this nature is in reference to Lucifer as the morning star. The earth was created before the stars and stars do not sing  :o
So I believe that the morning stars are the first angels and the most powerful ones with the sons of God being that angels created after the morning stars.

Implications are this: The angelic creation predates the earth creation and per genesis 1:1 the angelic creation was a part of the creation of the heaven.

Another question: Why were the angels singing and shouting for joy when God made the earth? If God made the earth to be given to man then why the angelic joy? Logic indicates that the fallen angels became jealous when God gave the earth to man.

The only sense I can make out of this passage is to conclude that God made the earth for these angels. They had to be getting something out of it because they were celebrating like they had just won the superbowl.

The book of Jude indicates that angels have a estate, a habitation. This place is surely in the heaven.

In the Job passage God discusses the construction of earth. In Genesis 1:2 the earth has already been constructed. So this construction process had to occur during the Genesis 1:1 period.

Is it possible that God whipped up heaven and all the angels then rushed them out to watch Him do the Genesis creation? Sure it`s possible but I think highly improbable.

I believe that in the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. And then spent some time with His angels in the heaven that He made and that Genesis 1:2 picks up the story at a later time.

I think having a viewpoint that an angelic civilization had an age before Adam is important because there is a challenge to people of faith that is coming from the kingdom of darkness. We are confronted by it now and it`s challenge is going to grow stronger because disclosure by governments of certain evidence is coming. It`s on the one world agenda.

I have a few more verses I can inject into this but I`ll leave it where it is for now.




Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 25, 2014, 09:02:21 pm
Here's my question - where is the timing of Satan's fall from heaven?


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 25, 2014, 11:37:05 pm
Here's my question - where is the timing of Satan's fall from heaven?

In the New Testament the casting out of Satan is mentioned in 3 places. These are Luke 10, John 12, and in the book of Revelation about chapter 8 or 9 I think.

In Luke 10 Jesus gives his eye witness account of seeing Satan fall from heaven. This event took place as Christ began to empower his disciples to cast out demons.

In John 12 Jesus states that the prince of this world aka Satan is being cast out of this world as the crucifixian begins to take place. I believe this begins the work of the believer to take things away from satans control for the Kingdom of God.

Lastly in Revelation an angelic war takes place resulting in the expulsion of Satan and his angels from heaven.

As a Bible believer I believe Jesus is a credible witness and that Satan was cast out during his lifetime. I believe that the process of casting Satan from the earth began with the crucifixian.

And I believe that Satan regained access to heaven due to the rejection of Jesus by the Jews and the fall of Israel which will result in the angelic war seen in revelation some time in the future.

This last comment I made requires clarification with the scriptures and pertains to dispensation issues. I might get into that headache at some point. LOL!  But I gotta get my computer upgraded first because I`ll need the search engine on Biblegateway.com it`s the best  ;D


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 26, 2014, 12:19:58 am
Quote
But I gotta get my computer upgraded first because I`ll need the search engine on Biblegateway.com it`s the best

Download e-sword - it's worked really, really well for me. Very quick and accessible to everything.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 26, 2014, 06:07:21 am
Download e-sword - it's worked really, really well for me. Very quick and accessible to everything.

I`m dropping my pc off today so I should get it back in a couple. I`ll check out e-sword though. Thx  :)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 26, 2014, 09:12:36 am
Hey Mark - don't mean to call you out here - but what is your take on the timing of Satan's fall from heaven?


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Christian40 on September 27, 2014, 04:20:33 am
Here's my question - where is the timing of Satan's fall from heaven?

i'm glad you asked that because i had thought about that recently

i read the above posts i just want to point out

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

if this "serpent" is Satan (Mike Hoggard believes this) then this is the first occurrence of Satan falling.

Quote
In Luke 10 Jesus gives his eye witness account of seeing Satan fall from heaven.

Yeah but the thing is that it is in the past tense

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

which makes me go back in time to Genesis 3.

Hoggard believes that Satan is in a continual state of falling which started in Genesis 3. Do what you want with this reply it is something that i have just started looking at recently.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on September 27, 2014, 06:15:44 am
Hey Mark - don't mean to call you out here - but what is your take on the timing of Satan's fall from heaven?

It isnt mentioned in scripture as to the exact timing. Many people have speculated as to when it happened. Some say it happened right after creation, kind of hard to say that as the deceiver was still in Heaven in Job. Which takes place after Gen 3. I would say some time between Job and the start of the Gospels.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 27, 2014, 12:11:22 pm
i'm glad you asked that because i had thought about that recently

i read the above posts i just want to point out

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

if this "serpent" is Satan (Mike Hoggard believes this) then this is the first occurrence of Satan falling.

Yeah but the thing is that it is in the past tense

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

which makes me go back in time to Genesis 3.

Hoggard believes that Satan is in a continual state of falling which started in Genesis 3. Do what you want with this reply it is something that i have just started looking at recently.

On the first point: In my post I was addressing the physical removal of Satan from heaven which In my view has nothing to do with his spiritual fall. I realize that people usually fail to distinguish between the two. But it is a distinction that is important to make since all the new testment verses are about Satan`s physical removal, not his spiritual condition.

Jesus describes Satan as a murderer from the beginning and as the father of lies. This implies that satan was corrupt very early on. Murderer from the beginning might suggest that he was created in a fallen condition. But I think it more likely that satan is the same angel that is called Lucifer. Lucifer was perfect for awhile, then fell spiritually. And I believe this fall of Lucifer took place before adam was created. Some argue that Lucifer is not Satan but my thought is: Why does the Bible tell the Lucifer story unless Lucifer is Satan? To me it doesn`t make sense for the story to be there unless Lucifer and Satan are one and same.


On the fall as lightening past tense point. If I behold a star fall from the sky today and I tell you about it tomorrow I will say "I beheld and a star fell from the sky." Past tense doesn`t necessarilly mean a long time ago is my point.

It brings up a point here. What do you think Jesus was doing before He came to earth as a man? My view is: Jesus in His pre-human condition would have been the One throwing Satan out of heaven and making him fall like lightning. I think the fact that Jesus is eyewitnees to this fall implies this event happened while Jesus was on the earth as a man.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 27, 2014, 12:16:29 pm
It isnt mentioned in scripture as to the exact timing. Many people have speculated as to when it happened. Some say it happened right after creation, kind of hard to say that as the deceiver was still in Heaven in Job. Which takes place after Gen 3. I would say some time between Job and the start of the Gospels.

What about the Revelation passage? Satan is in heaven and it takes an angelic war to kick him out. Everything in Revelation past the letters to the churches is future from the time it was written.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on September 27, 2014, 12:41:26 pm
What about the Revelation passage? Satan is in heaven and it takes an angelic war to kick him out. Everything in Revelation past the letters to the churches is future from the time it was written.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


As we see from this passage, the War in Heaven happened and then Satan and his angels were cast out. AND then, Salvation through Jesus comes. VERSE 10.And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: This is when Jesus came to Earth and offered the Kingdom of Heaven, then established it at the cross. Now notice the second portion of that verse. for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Here we are shown that Satan is cast down during the time when the Lord was here.

And in the very next verse, And they overcame him him being Satan, by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. By the BLOOD of the Lamb and THEIR TESTIMONY. This is the church age. As this has been going on for 2000 years, not a future event.

So we see that Satan was cast out some time after Job but before the Gospels. I think this portion can be taken historically.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on September 27, 2014, 12:52:27 pm
Just an after thought here. In this passage we have a direct connection to the book of Job.

Rev 12:10
   
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


This is in reference to Job where Satan is accusing Job before God and we learn that he goes to and fro in the Earth.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 27, 2014, 01:02:03 pm
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


As we see from this passage, the War in Heaven happened and then Satan and his angels were cast out. AND then, Salvation through Jesus comes. VERSE 10.And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: This is when Jesus came to Earth and offered the Kingdom of Heaven, then established it at the cross. Now notice the second portion of that verse. for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Here we are shown that Satan is cast down during the time when the Lord was here.

And in the very next verse, And they overcame him him being Satan, by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. By the BLOOD of the Lamb and THEIR TESTIMONY. This is the church age. As this has been going on for 2000 years, not a future event.

So we see that Satan was cast out some time after Job but before the Gospels. I think this portion can be taken historically.

The salvation Revelation 12 is talking about is the salvation everyone will recieve at the first resurrection.
Among other things this fact is clearly indicated by verse 11 where people who gave their lives for Christ and had been faithful Christians were now recieving their salvation.

The Bible says that believers recieve an earnest portion of the Spirit for this life (present salvation) until the final redemption of the purchased possesion at the first resurrection (future salvation).



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on September 27, 2014, 01:10:25 pm
The salvation Revelation 12 is talking about is the salvation everyone will recieve at the first resurrection.
Among other things this fact is clearly indicated by verse 11 where people who gave their lives for Christ and had been faithful Christians were now recieving their salvation.

The Bible says that believers recieve an earnest portion of the Spirit for this life (present salvation) until the final redemption of the purchased possion at the first resurrection (future salvation).



But the thing is, people have been giving up their lives for Jesus for 2000 years. Still going on. It doesnt start in the future, its been and still is happening. I see that passage as historical.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 27, 2014, 01:12:42 pm
But the thing is, people have been giving up their lives for Jesus for 2000 years. Still going on. It doesnt start in the future, its been and still is happening. I see that passage as historical.

Are you a Preterist? They think the passage is historical.

My take on the verse is: the people had all three characteristics in common. The overcame by the blood and by their testimony, and they all gave up their lives. So I believe that the people in verse 11 all die in the great tribulation which is a future event.

I believe verse 10 to reference the second coming of Christ. What people here call the church age will close out by having the churches broken up. The church age will not end in power, it ends with tribulation.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on September 27, 2014, 01:26:34 pm
Are you a Preterist? They think the passage is historical.

NO!!! no no no.But that one passage i think is a historical reference. I think the passage moves through time. Rev 12 tells a history along with the future events.

Quote
My take on the verse is: the people had all three characteristics in common. The overcame by the blood and by their testimony, and they all gave up their lives. So I believe that the people in verse 11 all die in the great tribulation which is a future event.

I believe verse 10 to reference the second coming of Christ. What people here call the church age will close out by having the churches broken up. The church age will not end in power, it ends with tribulation.

Thats fine. I still see it as history showing when he fell. Another point i could make, and this is just something ive been thinking about is, that there are no demons/devils in the Old Testament. But a whole bunch in the gospels and acts. And talked about in the rest of the New Testament. So something must have happened. Dont know if that works or not, but it is interesting to think about.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 27, 2014, 01:28:42 pm
NO!!! no no no.But that one passage i think is a historical reference. I think the passage moves through time. Rev 12 tells a history along with the future events.

LOL!!! Sorry I had to ask. I don`t like to waste my time on Preterists.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on September 27, 2014, 01:34:20 pm
LOL!!! Sorry I had to ask. I don`t like to waste my time on Preterists.

I know the feeling.  ;D The rest of it is future, i just see that one part telling the history of what happened. Also i really dont get how people can look at the book of REV and see it as all historical.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 27, 2014, 01:40:55 pm
I know the feeling.  ;D The rest of it is future, i just see that one part telling the history of what happened. Also i really dont get how people can look at the book of REV and see it as all historical.

I debated with some Preterist and they point to historical events in the 1st century to defend their belief.
That aspect was interesting to me and I have came to believe that the fall of Israel in the 1st century foreshadows the fall of the Gentiles at the end of this age.

I believe that in the 1st century God presented Israel with a legit opportunity to have all of their prophetic
promises fulfilled.

They blew it and God knew they would blow it but He was still faithful to his covenant with Abraham and gave them the chance.



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 27, 2014, 02:41:29 pm
Just an after thought here. In this passage we have a direct connection to the book of Job.

Rev 12:10
   
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


This is in reference to Job where Satan is accusing Job before God and we learn that he goes to and fro in the Earth.

I think many events in the book of Revelation have foreshadow events that occurred in the first century.
The book of Revelation was given years after the ascension of Christ. All end of age Bible prophecy could have easily been fulfilled in the first century except for some of the things that are seen in Revelation.

Some things that happened before must happen again. The expulsion of satan from heaven could be one of those things. I can`t prove it but I suspect they`ve given satan the boot more then once  ;D


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 27, 2014, 03:42:55 pm
I know the feeling.  ;D The rest of it is future, i just see that one part telling the history of what happened. Also i really dont get how people can look at the book of REV and see it as all historical.

Those Catholic bible versions have all but wiped out future promises to be given to Israel - for example in Rev 7(talking about the 144K witnesses) - they wipe out the word "children" in "children of Israel".


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 27, 2014, 08:25:53 pm
Those Catholic bible versions have all but wiped out future promises to be given to Israel - for example in Rev 7(talking about the 144K witnesses) - they wipe out the word "children" in "children of Israel".

I`ve debated several catholics. I`ve yet to meet one who could use the Bible effectively. The smarter ones will insist on using early church writings to prove their points. It was a bit time consuming but I was able to use that to my advantage a bit as I found ways to use their text to prove my own points. It strained my brain pretty bad but it was fun  ;D


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Christian40 on September 28, 2014, 04:54:38 am
On the first point: In my post I was addressing the physical removal of Satan from heaven which In my view has nothing to do with his spiritual fall. I realize that people usually fail to distinguish between the two. But it is a distinction that is important to make since all the new testment verses are about Satan`s physical removal, not his spiritual condition.

double checking that now:

"Satan" occurs 36 times in the New Testament

Luke 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Jesus describes Satan as a murderer from the beginning and as the father of lies. This implies that satan was corrupt very early on. Murderer from the beginning might suggest that he was created in a fallen condition. But I think it more likely that satan is the same angel that is called Lucifer. Lucifer was perfect for awhile, then fell spiritually. And I believe this fall of Lucifer took place before adam was created. Some argue that Lucifer is not Satan but my thought is: Why does the Bible tell the Lucifer story unless Lucifer is Satan? To me it doesn`t make sense for the story to be there unless Lucifer and Satan are one and same.

Lucifer and Satan are the same yep, did Lucifer fall before Adam? well it is hard to say, Satan is a fallen cherub so when were the Cherubs made?

On the fall as lightening past tense point. If I behold a star fall from the sky today and I tell you about it tomorrow I will say "I beheld and a star fell from the sky." Past tense doesn`t necessarilly mean a long time ago is my point.

ok


It brings up a point here. What do you think Jesus was doing before He came to earth as a man? My view is: Jesus in His pre-human condition would have been the One throwing Satan out of heaven and making him fall like lightning. I think the fact that Jesus is eyewitnees to this fall implies this event happened while Jesus was on the earth as a man.


Where was Jesus before he became man? On the throne of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 28, 2014, 05:31:07 am
double checking that now:

"Satan" occurs 36 times in the New Testament

Luke 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

(Nothing in those verses to indicate a spiritual fall at the time he is kicked out of heaven. By implication one can assume he was all ready in a spiritually fallen condition before the life of Christ. When satan met Jesus he already controls every evil country in the world and had enough power over them to offer them to Jesus. Note: Jesus didn`t contest satans power to give Him the kingdoms of the world, he just declined the offer.)

Lucifer and Satan are the same yep, did Lucifer fall before Adam? well it is hard to say, Satan is a fallen cherub so when were the Cherubs made?

(Before the foundation of the earth as confirmed by the book of Job.)


Where was Jesus before he became man? On the throne of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

(If Jesus is sitting on God`s throne then how is it that he is watching satan fall from the sky on the earth?
You might say he is watching from the throne but that makes the statement seem illogical and out of place to me.)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: rick50 on September 28, 2014, 05:35:56 am
PS if Jesus spent all his time sitting on the throne who was out there performing the "Lord of Hosts" duties? 


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on September 28, 2014, 07:00:14 am
PS if Jesus spent all his time sitting on the throne who was out there performing the "Lord of Hosts" duties? 

Psa 33:13 The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
Psa 33:14 From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.

Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.





Title: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war - Genesis Gap theory EXPOSED!
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 27, 2015, 06:13:19 pm
Disclaimer: I'm not saying the guy in this video is a wolf in sheep's clothing, but nonetheless he IS pushing a dangerous heresy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YIakSDO9Bs


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Christian40 on March 27, 2015, 11:51:59 pm
okay so he is not tying evolution to the gap theory okay what i dont understand with this video where he mentions the "satanic flood" that is Noah's Ark is somehow supposed to be the second flood according to that the first flood destroyed the "evil angels" well how would a flood destroy angels? and where are the Bible verses to say there was a worldwide flood before Noah's flood? also how is it Satan's plan to "hide" all this knowledge about the gap theory? God did not need to into specific details about what happened in Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 God told us what we need to know there we have imaginations that can go into all sorts of places and begin to make things up.


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Mark on March 28, 2015, 05:18:07 am
This guy is a heretic period. There is NO GAP what so ever and the Bible is not just a history book.  ::)

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Quote
video where he mentions the "satanic flood"

There is no such thing. They try to equate various passages to match with this false belief. To bad it just does not work. The best the have is

Jeremiah 4:23-27
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
 
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
 
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
 
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
 
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (KJV)

But that is not talking about CREATION.


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Christian40 on March 28, 2015, 06:23:40 am
This guy is a heretic period. There is NO GAP what so ever and the Bible is not just a history book.  ::)

Edward has made some good videos up until now these videos about the gap and angelic war i think he is of track. These gap theory advocates sure think they are right.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

There is no such thing. They try to equate various passages to match with this false belief. To bad it just does not work. The best the have is

Jeremiah 4:23-27
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
 
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
 
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
 
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
 
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (KJV)

But that is not talking about CREATION.

Yeah why would Jeremiah be taken back into time and be shown "an earth that is void" ? i see them verses are not talking about creation.


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Mark on March 28, 2015, 06:36:12 am
Edward has made some good videos up until now these videos about the gap and angelic war i think he is of track. These gap theory advocates sure think they are right.

I dont know about his other vids, i dont usually have a lot of time o watch all the vids posted.  :-[ But this one caught my eye. And i just quite watching when he said the Bible was JUST A HISTORY BOOK. Sorry but it is the VERY WORD OF GOD.

Psa 119:89
   
LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 28, 2015, 11:45:01 am
Mark, thank you for the info you provided here. I think I emailed you this awhile back, but Scott Johnson emailed me a word document exposing the pre-Adamic flood heresy.

I'll admit(and I was wrong here), for some reason this started peaking my interest. It's not exactly the 501c3, seminary-trained hirelings that are pushing this, but staunch KJB-believers that are so. David Hoffman(who put out the Common Man's Reference Bible - whose commentary is excellent from what I hear, and even read at times) also believes in the Genesis Gap. Hoffman has put out alot of excellent sermons(which is a shame b/c he bought into this heresy).

I have a couple of questions - where did the Genesis Gap come from? And where would you put the timing of Satan's rebellion against God?


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Mark on March 28, 2015, 11:52:34 am
Quote
Where did the Genesis Gap come from?

Not to sure. I think Origin wrote something about it. I do know it became real popular in the 1800's as they tried to make evolution and long age geology work with the Bible. Doesn't fit. GH Pember pushed it hard in his book earth's earliest ages. And that is pushed by the likes of Quayle and Tom Horn.


Quote
And where would you put the timing of Satan's rebellion against God?

Not to sure, id say somewhere between Job and Jesus.


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 28, 2015, 11:57:07 am
Again, thank you Mark for the edification here. Like I said, for some reason I started to buy into it(my own fault, that is) without searching the scriptures.

I know Charles Lawson(who runs a non-501c3 church in Tennessee, and is probably the most humblest pastor I've ever seen) believes in the gap. However, if I remember correctly, James Knox(also another non-501c3 pastor, albeit in Florida) is against it.


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Mark on March 28, 2015, 12:02:15 pm
Again, thank you Mark for the edification here. Like I said, for some reason I started to buy into it(my own fault, that is) without searching the scriptures.

I know Charles Lawson(who runs a non-501c3 church in Tennessee, and is probably the most humblest pastor I've ever seen) believes in the gap. However, if I remember correctly, James Knox(also another non-501c3 pastor, albeit in Florida) is against it.

well the Bible states, and not just the KJV but every Bible out there says 6 days of creation in Exo 20:11. That is part of the 10 commandments. 6 days of creation, then the Lord rested on the 7th. Thats why we have a sabbath. It wasnt 1 day of creation, 10,000 years of DEATH, then 5 more days of creation then the Lord rested. No way around it.


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 28, 2015, 12:22:49 pm
well the Bible states, and not just the KJV but every Bible out there says 6 days of creation in Exo 20:11. That is part of the 10 commandments. 6 days of creation, then the Lord rested on the 7th. Thats why we have a sabbath. It wasnt 1 day of creation, 10,000 years of DEATH, then 5 more days of creation then the Lord rested. No way around it.

Well - to put it mildly too, Kent Hovind is anti-Genesis Gap. He definitely has the best Creation Science materials.

With that being said, I'm not trying to put you on a pedestial, Mark - but nonetheless we are blessed here with a brother who knows the ins and outs of this evolution deception. Personally, other than the earth *not* being millions of years old, my understanding on this subject is shallow.(ie-I was a poor science student in school)

Romans 12:6  Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7  Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8  Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: FervorForFaith on March 28, 2015, 01:44:01 pm
The gap theory just doesn't fit with scripture. As Mark quoted before, "In SIX DAYS..." You can't get around that. Also, death can't come before sin.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

Simply put, gap theory is a compromise with evolution (as is old earth creationism)


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 28, 2015, 03:55:08 pm
Jimmy Swaggart also pushed the gap, FYI.
http://www.libertyadvocate.com/The%20Gap%20Theory%20is%20a%20Lie.htm

The link also says Thomas Chalmers was the first proponent of this(and he was a Freemason).


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 28, 2015, 05:58:48 pm
Was just looking at some of the names that support the gap. No, it's not only Jesuitical heretics like Quayle and Hort...

David Peacock
Oliver Greene
Les Feldick
JR Church
and the list goes on(both heretics and non-heretics alike)

Peacock is a fundamental KJB-only/pre-ToJT contender for the faith.(saw his excellent "Before Tribulation" sermon last night)
Greene is easily in my top 3 list of pastors/evangelists
Feldick, despite being a mid-Acts dispensation believer, has put out excellent studies on rightly dividing the word of truth to show the pre-ToJT rapture.
Church died a few years ago, but nonetheless he was a good prophecy teacher.

I think we'll see these particular 4 at the rapture - but point being that we always have to keep our hearts on guard 100%, b/c our flesh is weak!


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Mark on March 28, 2015, 06:32:15 pm
Well lets think about this here. All of these people you listed are calling the BIBLE FALSE. Every single one of them. They are saying the Bible has errors or is wrong. You cant have it both ways. GOD said he created everything in 6 days. Not once, not twice but a few times, my Lord says he created EVERYTHING IN 6 LITERAL DAYS. These people are calling him a LIAR.

How do you reconcile this? How can you you really go out and break bread with some one and pray with someone who thinks the God is a LIAR? These people are being deceived by a LIE. The LIE of Evolution, and an old Earth. Neither are true. Ill say this, by reading JUST the King James Bible, there is no way you can come to this conclusion. So what is that saying about these people that believe in an Old Earth/ Satans flood?

It isnt BIBLICAL at all. It is a deception perpetrated by the belief in evolution and an old Earth. People know that "religion" will garner them money if they do it right.

proof: http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,4029.msg56541.html#msg56541

These people are denying the Word of God. What else can you say?

Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psa 12:8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.


Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

I bet most of these people do not believe in the Flood either. Whom do you serve?


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 28, 2015, 06:59:54 pm
Well lets think about this here. All of these people you listed are calling the BIBLE FALSE. Every single one of them. They are saying the Bible has errors or is wrong. You cant have it both ways. GOD said he created everything in 6 days. Not once, not twice but a few times, my Lord says he created EVERYTHING IN 6 LITERAL DAYS. These people are calling him a LIAR.

How do you reconcile this? How can you you really go out and break bread with some one and pray with someone who thinks the God is a LIAR? These people are being deceived by a LIE. The LIE of Evolution, and an old Earth. Neither are true. Ill say this, by reading JUST the King James Bible, there is no way you can come to this conclusion. So what is that saying about these people that believe in an Old Earth/ Satans flood?

It isnt BIBLICAL at all. It is a deception perpetrated by the belief in evolution and an old Earth. People know that "religion" will garner them money if they do it right.

proof: http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,4029.msg56541.html#msg56541

These people are denying the Word of God. What else can you say?

Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psa 12:8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.


Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

I bet most of these people do not believe in the Flood either. Whom do you serve?

Hey Mark - is there any way this forum can have either a Thumbs Up or a +1 function like YT does? I would give your post just that! :)

We really appreciate you standing firm against this gap theory heresy, brother - I will admit that lately, I've become seduced by this.(and for the record, no - I wasn't giving an endorsement to those 4 men that endorsed the gap theory. Was just saying I was quite surprised they supported it)

Hopefully, NO MORE of that gap theory nonsense for me!(now that all of its heresies have been explained thoroughly) :)


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war - Genesis Gap theory EXPOSED!
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 30, 2015, 01:18:26 am
I'll admit, I'm very guilty of this too - a WARNING for all of the brethren and sisters(myself included here)! Be very careful over how much KNOWLEDGE you want to puff into yourself. The bigger the head, the bigger the pride, and ultimately the more deceptions you end up biting into!

Eccl 1:17  And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
Ecc 1:18  For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1 Corinthians 8:1  Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

James 4:6  But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on March 30, 2015, 11:25:09 am
i combined threads


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 30, 2015, 12:05:11 pm
i combined threads

Thanks! :)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 03, 2015, 09:01:21 am
Genesis 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6  And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7  And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8  And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9  And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10  And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11  And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12  And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13  And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14  And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15  And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16  And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17  And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18  And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19  And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:20  And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21  And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22  And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23  And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24  And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25  And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29  And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


Gen 2:1  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2  And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3  And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 03, 2015, 09:04:29 am
Romans 15:5  Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Rom 15:6  That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Peter 1:22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 05, 2015, 08:49:16 pm
1 Corinthians 3:1  And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2  I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


This gap theory has seemed to cause alot of strife in the body of Christ(at least from I've seen over the last year on YT).

1Corinthians 3:18  Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Co 3:19  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Co 3:20  And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 06, 2015, 01:00:01 am
At the 02:33:48 mark, Pastor Cooley and bro Nate briefly expose the gap theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRkKsEz9OOE


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 06, 2015, 11:08:44 am
Genesis 1:28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

I see these gap theory pushers point to the word "replenish" and insist how God is commanding the earth to be re-filled. However, that's NOT what it means. Here's an example...

Acts 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


This passage talks about the future 1000 year mil reign on earth by Jesus Christ - look at the word restore - no, it does NOT mean it will "re"-do something, per se. Has there been any kind of 1000 year mil reign on earth by Jesus, EVER? No! Again - look at the CONTEXT of the meanings of these verses via what the BIBLE says, and NOT what the world says!


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on April 06, 2015, 11:51:38 am
The word replenish is one of the gap theory's main foundation. The only problem is it si so easily kicked out of the way toppling the whole idea of gap theory. They use it as we use the word today. Today in 2015 the word pretty much means to fill again. Which would make a case for gap theory. Why would we have to fill again the world? The only problem is... is that this word has changed meanings over the years.

Many words today do not mean what they meant years ago. Take the queer, it originally and still does mean something that is strange or mysterious. But in today's context it means a homosexual. Now the word replenish originally meant just "to fill", not to fill again.

Noah 1828
46136    replenish    REPLEN'ISH, v. t. [L. re and plenus, full. ]1. To fill; to stock with numbers or abundance. The magazines are replenished with corn. The springs are

Its that simple. In 1611 and even 1828 the word replenish simply meant "to fill", not fill again.


AHHHH the gap theory has fallen!!!  :D


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on April 06, 2015, 05:08:24 pm
 Why the Gap Theory Won't Work
by Henry Morris, Ph.D.
Evidence for Creation

What is the Gap Theory?

One of the popular devices for trying to accommodate the evolutionary ages of the geologists and astronomers in the creation record of the Bible has been the "gap theory"—also called the "ruin-and-reconstruction" theory.

According to this concept, Genesis 1:1 describes the initial creation of the universe. Following this, the standard events of cosmic evolution took place, which eventually produced our solar system about five billion years ago. Then, on the earth, the various geologic ages followed, as identified by their respective assemblages of fossils (trilobites, dinosaurs, etc.).

But then occurred a devastating global cataclysm, destroying all life on Earth and leaving a vast fossil graveyard everywhere. This situation is then said to be what is described in Genesis 1:2. "And the earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." The cataclysm is thought to have occurred as a result of the rebellion of Satan and his angels against their Creator in Heaven, with God then casting them out of Heaven to the earth.

Those who advocate the gap theory agree that the six days of the creation week were literal days, but they interpret them only as days of recreation, with God creating again many of the kinds of animals and plants destroyed in the cataclysm.

What is the Purpose of the Gap Theory?

The gap theory was developed mainly for the purpose of accommodating the great ages demanded by evolutionary geologists. This idea was first popularized by a Scottish theologian, Thomas Chalmers, early in the 19th century. In this country, the famous Scofield Study Bible made it an almost universally accepted teaching among fundamentalists.

The Scofield Bible notes on Genesis I include the following:

    The first act refers to the dateless past, and gives scope for all the geologic ages. . . . The face of the earth bears everywhere the marks of such a catastrophe. There are not wanting intimations which connect it with a previous testing and fall of angels. . . . Relegate fossils to the primitive creation, and no conflict of science with the Genesis cosmogony remains.

However, serious conflicts do remain. In fact, there are few, if any, professionally trained geologists and astronomers (to my knowledge there are none) who accept the gap theory. The promoters of this theory have mostly been Bible teachers who hoped they could place these great ages in a gap between the first two verses of Genesis, and thus not have to deal with them at all.

With the modem revival of scientific Biblical creationism, many of these teachers have abandoned the gap theory in favor of strict creationism. Most advocates of the gap idea were men of strong Biblical faith, and when they were shown its Biblical fallacies, plus its scientific inadequacies, they were quite willing to reject the evolutionary ages scheme altogether.

Many of us had naively assumed that the gap theory was moribund, and so had concentrated most of our critiques on the other compromise theories (day-age theory, framework theory, etc.). But it now appears that the gap theory is still being advocated by a number of evangelical theologians.

For example, the Nelson Study Bible, published this year (1997), in its footnotes on Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, says:

    Here it means that God renewed what was in a chaotic state. God changed chaos into cosmos, disorder into order, emptiness into fullness. . . . The two words, without form and void, express one concept—chaos. The earth had been reduced to this state—it was not the way God had first created it.

The editors and contributors to this volume—43 in all—include many well-known evangelical leaders. Yet they feel they must allow for the geological ages, and so they opt for what amounts to the old gap theory again with its pre-Adamic cataclysm. The notes in this study Bible do allow a worldwide Flood, but there are no relevant comments on the effects of sin and the curse on the animal kingdom, and no mention of the billions of fossils now preserved in the earth's sedimentary rock beds.

Is the Gap Theory Scientific?

The reason why geologists will not accept the gap theory is that it contradicts their assumption that the past is continuous with the present. There is no room in their naturalistic approach to science for a global cataclysm that would destroy all life and then require a new creation of plants, animals, and people such as the gap theory proposes.

Any cataclysm that would leave the earth "without form and void" (or "a shapeless chaotic mass" as The Living Bible expresses it), with "darkness on the face of the deep" everywhere, would require a worldwide nuclear or volcanic explosion that would effectively disintegrate the whole crust of the earth. All pre-cataclysm mountains would be blown into the sea and billions of tons of rocks and dust blown into the atmosphere, leaving the earth covered with "the deep" everywhere and "darkness" covering the deep everywhere.

Such a cataclysm would disintegrate any previously deposited sedimentary deposits with their fossils and thus obliterate all evidence of any previous "geological ages." Thus the gap theory, which is supposed to accommodate the geological ages, requires a cataclysm which would destroy all evidence for the geological ages.

Is it Theologically Sound?

The gap theory is also unsound theologically. The God of Creation is an omnipotent and omniscient God, and is also a God of grace, mercy, and love. The very concept of the geological ages, on the other hand, implies a wasteful and cruel "god," and therefore probably no god at all.

The supposed geologic ages are identified in terms of the fossils found in the earth's sedimentary rocks, and there are multiplied billions of them there. But fossils speak of death—even violent death. The preservation of dead animals requires rapid burial if they are to last very long. There are many regions, for example, where there are millions of fossil fish preserved in the rocks. There are dinosaur fossil beds on every continent, as well as great beds of fossil marine invertebrates practically everywhere. These may indeed speak of cataclysmic death and burial, but not a cataclysm operating slowly over billions of years, as the geological ages imply. If the gap theory were valid, it would mean that God had instituted an ages-long system of suffering and death over the world, before there were ever any men and women to place in dominion over that world, and then suddenly destroy it in a violent cataclysm. Why would an omnipotent, merciful God do such a wasteful and cruel thing as that?

They cannot blame Satan, either. According to the gap theory, Satan's fall took place at the end of the geological ages, followed by the great pre-Adamic cataclysm on the earth. Thus the geological ages, with their eons of cruelty and waste, took place even before Satan's sin. God Himself would be solely responsible for the whole debacle, if it really happened.

But is the Gap Theory Biblical?

If the Bible actually teaches the gap theory' however, then there might be some reason to try to accommodate it in our theology. But the Bible does not teach it! If there really had been billions of years of animals suffering and dying before Genesis 1:2, why would God say nothing about it? The best they can offer in support of such a notion are some out-of-context quotes from Isaiah and Jeremiah, along with an ad hoc translation of Genesis 1:1,2.

And why would God send such a devastating cataclysm at all? Satan's fall did not occur until after the creation week of Genesis 1, for at that time God had pronounced the whole creation "very good" (Genesis 1: 31). At present, however, "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together" (Romans 8:22) because of the great curse pronounced by God on man's dominion (Genesis 3:17-19), as a result of sin.

This groaning creation has indeed experienced one global cataclysm—one not inferred from vague hints in out-of-context quotes, but rather one described in great detail in Genesis 6-9 and referred to often and unambiguously in later passages—namely, the worldwide Flood in the days of Noah. Most of the vast fossil graveyards in the earth's crust can best be explained as one of the results of the Flood.

This awesome spectacle of destruction and death was not part of God's "very good" creation. There was no death in the world until sin was in the world (Romans 5:12; I Corinthians 15:21; etc.). In fact, death itself is "the wages of sin" (Romans 6:23). Our future deliverance from sin and death has been purchased by the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ, who is "the propitiation for our sins and ... also for the sins of the whole world" (John 2:2).

But if "death reigned" not "from Adam to Moses," as the Bible says (Romans 5:14), but had already reigned for billions of years before Adam, then death is not the wages of sin but instead was part of God's creative purpose. How then could the death of Christ put away sin? The gap theory thus undermines the very gospel of our salvation, as well as the holy character of God.

The fact is that no such gap exists between the first two verses of Genesis at all. The second verse merely describes the initial aspect of the creation as "without form and void"—that is, with neither structure nor inhabitants. The rest of the chapter tells how God produced a marvelous structure for His created universe, with multitudes of plant and animal inhabitants for the earth, all to be under the dominion of its human inhabitants created in the image of God. It was only then that God pronounced the creation "finished" (Genesis 2:1).

It is time for those who believe the Bible and in the goodness and wisdom of God to abandon the gap theory once and for all (as well as the day-age theory, which is even worse) and simply believe what God has said. The gap theory has no scientific merit, requires a very forced Biblical exegesis, and leads to a God-dishonoring theology. It does not work, either Biblically or scientifically.

    * Dr. Henry Morris is Founder and President Emeritus of ICR.

http://www.icr.org/article/why-gap-theory-wont-work/


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on April 06, 2015, 05:18:34 pm
Quote
But if "death reigned" not "from Adam to Moses," as the Bible says (Romans 5:14), but had already reigned for billions of years before Adam, then death is not the wages of sin but instead was part of God's creative purpose. How then could the death of Christ put away sin? The gap theory thus undermines the very gospel of our salvation, as well as the holy character of God.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 06, 2015, 08:33:55 pm
Quote
The gap theory thus undermines the very gospel of our salvation, as well as the holy character of God.

Yes - and I'm also seeing a falling away from other important doctrines in the YT video communities(that are pushing this same gap theory), and increase in spiritual warfare to boot. Why are they doing this? Complacency, perhaps? B/c the rapture is getting nigh?(I'll admit, I fell for this heresy too)

Honestly - I'll take a post-trib believer in a heartbeat over a gap theory believer(ie-Scott Johnson and Jason Cooley both see the gap heresy through and through).

Ultimately - error will only breed more error - our salvation is sealed, don't get me wrong, but there ARE consequences for ignorantly following after doctrine of devils.

Just STICK with SCRIPTURE!


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 06, 2015, 08:40:57 pm
Quote
The Scofield Bible notes on Genesis I include the following:

I saw a Scofield bible at a bookstore while out of town this weekend - I explained to my dad how Scofield included this gap theory nonsense in his reference notes, and how it planted the seeds for evolution(and it wasn't exactly Darwin who came up with the idea himself).

My dad, to say the least, was wholly disinterested - I think he's saved, but he's more or less stuck and indoctrinated in that organized religion system.

Pt being that it's sad that the Laodicean church of today either doesn't know about it, nor doesn't care about it. But even worse, it's being pushed in the KJB-believing circles.(ie-Greg Miller, Charles Lawson, Les Feldick, David Peac0ck, the late JR Church, etc being the ones pushing it recently) Like I said - with the rapture being nigh, is everyone getting complacent now?(I too have been so recently, to be honest)

Ultimately - we need to guard our hearts, and remember how Jesus Christ washed away our sins and regenerated us.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on April 06, 2015, 09:09:53 pm
Quote
The Scofield Bible

if i only had a bird...  :'(


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Christian40 on April 07, 2015, 03:56:39 am
The word replenish is one of the gap theory's main foundation. The only problem is it si so easily kicked out of the way toppling the whole idea of gap theory. They use it as we use the word today. Today in 2015 the word pretty much means to fill again. Which would make a case for gap theory. Why would we have to fill again the world? The only problem is... is that this word has changed meanings over the years.

Many words today do not mean what they meant years ago. Take the queer, it originally and still does mean something that is strange or mysterious. But in today's context it means a homosexual. Now the word replenish originally meant just "to fill", not to fill again.

Noah 1828
46136 replenish REPLEN'ISH, v. t. [L. re and plenus, full. ]1. To fill; to stock with numbers or abundance. The magazines are replenished with corn. The springs are

Its that simple. In 1611 and even 1828 the word replenish simply meant "to fill", not fill again.

AHHHH the gap theory has fallen!!!  :D

That is brilliant (as an Englishman would say) :)

Quote
But if "death reigned" not "from Adam to Moses," as the Bible says (Romans 5:14), but had already reigned for billions of years before Adam, then death is not the wages of sin but instead was part of God's creative purpose. How then could the death of Christ put away sin? The gap theory thus undermines the very gospel of our salvation, as well as the holy character of God.

it gets deep and subtle and then the gap theory fails

if i only had a bird...  :'(

PS why you want a bird?


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on April 07, 2015, 05:59:33 am

PS why you want a bird?

If i had a bird then i would have a use for the The Scofield Bible.  :D


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on April 07, 2015, 06:05:15 am
good find BA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eJEQHGPWbPA


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on April 07, 2015, 06:19:50 am
gap theory pdf

http://www.livingwaterministries.yolasite.com/resources/Gap%20Theory.pdf


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 07, 2015, 08:56:00 am
I hear gap theory pushers say how God doesn't create darkness(which is what is said about the earth in Genesis 1:2) - however, this verse right here puts their "theory" to rest...

Isaiah 45:5-7, "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: i girded thee, though thou hast not known me: that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on April 07, 2015, 09:41:51 am
exactly, gap theory people just do not want to believe the Bible. They want it to say what they believe, not to believe what the book says.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 07, 2015, 11:21:38 am
exactly, gap theory people just do not want to believe the Bible. They want it to say what they believe, not to believe what the book says.

Well, I asked God for forgiveness of this - but I feel really bad now, b/c I got a couple of brethren on YT to believe this nonsense. I even pm'd one brethren the Henry Morris article AFTER I told him I endorsed it, and he still leans believing the gap theory way.

I hope the damage hasn't been done or anything - but like I said, I feel very wicked for not searching these things out more carefully before getting other brethren to believe it. :'(

Has anyone else had these experiences before, where you acted wilfully ignorant by getting other people to believe in deceptions?


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on April 07, 2015, 03:19:38 pm
What i do not get is how you fell for this when it was discussed and proven false twice last year?


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 07, 2015, 04:11:37 pm
What i do not get is how you fell for this when it was discussed and proven false twice last year?

Yeah, that's what I was wondering myself too - I was SHOWN the truth to this(and even understood at the time), but for some reason fell for it again. I'll be honest, I thought the "expert" people(like that edward guy) were correct on this, so I just went along.

Well - hopefully, there won't be a strike 3 with me. BTW - just saw this on YT - the word of God and Hovind put EVERYTHING about the gap heresy to rest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoZUiOFhE0k


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 08, 2015, 10:09:31 am
Apparently, theologians prior to the 1800's did not support the genesis "gap" theory.

John Gill was a 1700's theologian(read a few of his scripture commentaries, which are quite interesting) - and here's what he had to say(ignore most of the jibber-jabber in random places in the link - posting an excerpt here)...

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/geb/view.cgi?bk=0&ch=1

In Exodus 20:11 we read of a literal six day creation. No gaps, not even for one minute, otherwise these would not be six normal days. Also, in Romans 5:12 we read that death is the result of Adam's sin. Because the rock layers display death on a grand scale, they could not have existed before the fall of Adam. There is no direct evidence that the earth is much older than six thousand years. However, we have the direct eyewitness report of God himself that he made everything in six days. Tracing back through the biblical genealogies we can determine the age of the universe to be about six thousand years with an error of not more than two per cent.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 08, 2015, 10:29:38 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kN4TGgARYw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAtpHCaCkZg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDXgAB-ZWjA


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 09, 2015, 10:20:54 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vBFqPwOnc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8_3g6RS5gE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gj7Ei85c7Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTHIDeNyKCI


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 09, 2015, 08:23:44 pm
2 Peter 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

This is one other verse the gap theory proponents abuse quite a bit - they say how "the earth standing out of the water" part means there was supposedly some "old" civilization prior to Genesis 1:2.

However(Mark, please correct me if I'm wrong here) - doesn't this mean that there's water ABOVE the heavens(and pretty much reaches WAY OUTSIDE of the earth itself)?

That's what it appears to me, I think.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 09, 2015, 09:25:10 pm
This is from bro Scott's end times current events newsletter...

From: Kenya
Subject: gap theory confusion in KJB believing circles
Dear Dr Johnson, i see that this belief in a gap in Genesis 1:1-2 is being pushed by some KJB Believing Christians (including pastors) and that it is causing divisions and confusion and wrong doctrines amongst KJB Christians. i believe this belief in a gap originated in the 1800's before Darwin and evolution debate…

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hate to say this, but I couldn't agree more - for example, I'm starting to see an attack on repentance(one of the pieces of salvation, that is) - where these "lordship salvation"-opponents are calling repentance a "work". Pretty much, alot of this crowd are the same ones pushing the gap theory.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Christian40 on April 10, 2015, 12:26:13 am
This is from bro Scott's end times current events newsletter...

From: Kenya
Subject: gap theory confusion in KJB believing circles
Dear Dr Johnson, i see that this belief in a gap in Genesis 1:1-2 is being pushed by some KJB Believing Christians (including pastors) and that it is causing divisions and confusion and wrong doctrines amongst KJB Christians. i believe this belief in a gap originated in the 1800's before Darwin and evolution debate…

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hate to say this, but I couldn't agree more - for example, I'm starting to see an attack on repentance(one of the pieces of salvation, that is) - where these "lordship salvation"-opponents are calling repentance a "work". Pretty much, alot of this crowd are the same ones pushing the gap theory.

:D That is the message i sent to Dr Johnson after you told me to send him a message yes i did put down my name as kenya (part of my email address) 


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on April 10, 2015, 08:34:05 am
 :D


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 10, 2015, 10:11:57 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_creationism

History
Gap creationism became increasingly attractive near the end of the 18th century and first half of the 19th century, because the newly established science of geology had determined that the Earth was far older than common interpretations of Genesis and THE BIBLE-based Flood geology would allow. Gap creation allowed religious geologists (who composed the majority of the geological community at the time) to reconcile their faith in the Bible with the new authority of science. According to the doctrine of natural theology, science was in this period considered a second revelation, God's word in nature as well as in Scripture, so the two could not contradict each other.[4]

Gap creationism was popularized by Thomas Chalmers,[5] a professor at the University of Edinburgh, founder of the Free Church of Scotland, and AUTHOR of one of the Bridgewater Treatises, who attributed it to 17th century Dutch Arminian theologian Simon Episcopius. Other early proponents included Oxford University geology professor and fellow Bridgewater author William Buckland, Sharon Turner and Edward Hitchcock.[4]

It gained widespread attention when a "second creative act"[6] was discussed prominently in the reference notes for Genesis in the influential 1917 Scofield Reference Bible.[4]

In 1954, a few years before the re-emergence of Young Earth Flood geology eclipsed Gap creationism, influential evangelical theologian Bernard Ramm wrote in The Christian View of Science and Scripture:[4]

Quote
"THE GAP theory has become the standard interpretation throughout hyper-orthodoxy, appearing in an endless stream of books, booklets, BIBLE STUDIES, and periodical articles. In fact, it has become so sacrosanct with some that to question it is equivalent to tampering with Sacred Scripture or to manifest modernistic leanings".

This BOOK BY Ramm was influential in the formation of another alternative to gap creationism, that of progressive creationism, which found favour with more conservative members of the American Scientific Affiliation (a fellowship of scientists who are Christians), with the more modernist wing of that fellowship favouring theistic evolution.[7]

Proponents of this form of creationism have included Oral Roberts, Cyrus I. Scofield, Harry Rimmer, Jimmy Swaggart,[8] G. H. Pember, L. Allen Higley,[4] Arthur Pink, Peter Ruckman, Finis Jennings Dake, Chuck Missler, E. W. Bullinger, Donald Grey Barnhouse, Herbert W. Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong and Clarence Larkin.[9]


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 10, 2015, 04:42:14 pm
 ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaLzN7IEfOc


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 10, 2015, 04:52:41 pm
:D That is the message i sent to Dr Johnson after you told me to send him a message yes i did put down my name as kenya (part of my email address) 

Oh that was YOU that sent it! :D I'll admit, you fooled me right there! :D

Seriously - that pretty much sums up what this false doctrine is doing - bringing confusion into the body of Christ. Not just with the biblical creation doctrine, but other doctrines as well(like I responded above).


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 11, 2015, 09:41:26 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWWIJmCJpN4


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 27, 2015, 02:50:50 pm
1 Timothy 4:1  Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2  Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3  Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


Acts 20:28  Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29  For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30  Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31  Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.


Galatians 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 27, 2015, 06:26:42 pm
Just read this now - this popped out at me, and more than proves this gap theory is just that, a doctrine of devils...

1 Timothy 1:3  As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4  Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.



Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 28, 2015, 01:09:51 pm
I dont know about his other vids, i dont usually have a lot of time o watch all the vids posted.  :-[ But this one caught my eye. And i just quite watching when he said the Bible was JUST A HISTORY BOOK. Sorry but it is the VERY WORD OF GOD.

Psa 119:89
   
LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.


http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/scripture

SCRIP'TURE, n. [L. scriptura, from scribo, to write.]

2. Appropriately, and by way of distinction, the books of the Old and New Testament; the Bible. The word is used either in the singular or plural number, to denote the sacred writings or divine oracles, called sacred or holy, as proceeding from God and containing sacred doctrines and precepts.

There is not any action that a man ought to do or forbear, but the Scripture will give him a clear precept or prohibition for it.

Compared with the knowledge which the Scriptures contain, every other subject of human inquiry is vanity and emptiness.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 01, 2015, 09:44:47 am
Eph 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16  From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on May 01, 2015, 11:09:17 am
This is from a Ken Ham book, Did Eve Really Have An Extra Rib? 

Q. There are still many Christians who believe in some sort of gap between the first two verses of
the Book of Genesis. Didn’t Jesus Christ himself rule this out?

A. Absolutely. In fact, if you carefully study the words of Jesus, He made it plain that there
can’t be a gap of billions of years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

In Mark 10:6, Jesus said, “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and
female.”

In these words of Jesus, we find that He teaches that Adam and Eve were created in “the beginning
of the creation” — NOT after billions of years had passed.

Furthermore, this passage indicates that God had prepared a world for Adam and Eve shortly
before — over the five previous days. Also, the expression “beginning of the creation” rules out any
second start or “re-creation” as taught by many gap theorists.

The main reason people try to place a gap between the first two verses of Genesis is to
accommodate the supposed billions of years for the earth’s age.

Jesus made it plain that such a compromise can’t be done! And we should follow His understanding
and His words because, after all, He is the author of creation and the WORD!


Q. Because of publications such as the Scofield Reference Bible, there are many Christians who
believe in the idea of the “gap theory.” Does it really matter if Christians accept it?

A. Well, first let me explain the gap theory. This idea was developed in the 1800s by church
leaders who didn’t know what to do with what some scientists were saying about millions of
years of history. They popularized the idea that there was a gap of time between the first two
verses of Genesis 1. Into this gap, they put a PREVIOUS creation that was destroyed, thus
explaining the fossil record of millions of years. According to this view, God then re-created the
world in six days.

There are many major problems with this view, including the fact that the gap theory allows death
before Adam’s sin — and this is contrary to Scripture. Even though the “gap theorists” believe in
creation, the danger of their view is that they have based their beliefs from OUTSIDE of Scripture —
accepting the evolutionary belief in millions of years, and trying to fit this into the Bible. It’s telling
people that you can begin outside the Bible and accept man’s fallible theories, and use them to
interpret the Words of the infallible Creator.

God created everything in six days. There’s no room for a gap.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 01, 2015, 02:24:49 pm
Like I said in another thread, this gap theory(which has really been pushed in recent years) is now reaping its rotten fruits - it's starting to cause more confusion with other basic doctrines. For example - salvation being one of them(ie-repentance and sin is getting watered down, and this same crowd also believes sanctification/growth is *optional* for the believer). I see why - the gap theory says death comes BEFORE sin, when it's the OTHER WAY AROUND. So if death comes BEFORE sin? Then it somehow means sin is not that big of a deal in God's eyes.

I'll be honest - I won't break fellowship with someone who is a gap theory believer. But nonetheless - BEWARE of those that are PUSHING this(as they've also brought in other heretical doctrines). I recently unsubscribed to YT channels that are continuing to push this.

1 Timothy 1:4  Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 1:5  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6  From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7  Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Christian40 on May 02, 2015, 01:11:06 am
i'm not a gap theory believer but something else that gets tied into this is the fall of satan. one believer i met said his theory was that satan fell on the first day of creation, just a theory, well they say that satan must have fallen before he tempted Eve in the Garden

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

here satan gets cursed

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

so something to think about when did satan first fall at what time?


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on May 02, 2015, 05:21:06 am
i'm not a gap theory believer but something else that gets tied into this is the fall of satan. one believer i met said his theory was that satan fell on the first day of creation, just a theory, well they say that satan must have fallen before he tempted Eve in the Garden

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

here satan gets cursed

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

so something to think about when did satan first fall at what time?

Here is my take on the fall of Satan. The Bible does not state it. You can glean some time when it happened, but not the exact time of it. For one thing Satan being an angel was created way before this creation was, well, created. The angels first abode is in Heaven, the place where God lives which is outside of creation. The angels were already there.

Jde 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

This verse shows that they live in Heaven not creation.

Here in Job, the Lord is talking about when He created creation. As you see the angels were already there.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


So for starters we see that it didn't happen on the first day. In the beginning of Job, we know that he still has access to Heaven.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

This happens some time AFTER the Flood. But he is now called Satan and not Lucifer. We know that eventually Satan is cast out from Heaven and stuck inside of Creation.But we do not know when that happens or happened either.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Christian40 on May 02, 2015, 06:10:30 am
Here is my take on the fall of Satan. The Bible does not state it. You can glean some time when it happened, but not the exact time of it. For one thing Satan being an angel was created way before this creation was, well, created. The angels first abode is in Heaven, the place where God lives which is outside of creation. The angels were already there.

Jde 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

This verse shows that they live in Heaven not creation.

Here in Job, the Lord is talking about when He created creation. As you see the angels were already there.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


So for starters we see that it didn't happen on the first day. In the beginning of Job, we know that he still has access to Heaven.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

This happens some time AFTER the Flood. But he is now called Satan and not Lucifer. We know that eventually Satan is cast out from Heaven and stuck inside of Creation.But we do not know when that happens or happened either.

That is a pretty neat answer i know some would think that Satan is of the angelic order but technically he is a cherub.

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

So sometime before Eden satan fell


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on May 02, 2015, 06:42:51 am
That is a pretty neat answer i know some would think that Satan is of the angelic order but technically he is a cherub.

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

So sometime before Eden satan fell

Well he is still of the angelic class. He was created and lived outside of creation in Heaven before the creation of our creation.

Quote
So sometime before Eden satan fell

Well ponder this...

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God said it was very good. How could it be good if satan was there in iniquity? You could make the claim he wasn't there inside of creation but outside of it. But remember that he still comes and goes and speaks with God in the first chapter of Job.

Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

something to ponder there...  ???


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 02, 2015, 08:12:46 am
I don't want to get off-topic here, but I'm bringing this up, so that I can drive home a point here...

Acts 8:18  And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19  Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:20  But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Act 8:21  Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Act 8:22  Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Act 8:23  For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
Act 8:24  Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.


Every time I read this passage - it just sounds like that Simon the sorcerer NEVER got saved - look at what he said("...none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me"). Does this really sound like genuine repentance? I'm not saying I'm 100% right about this - however, if Simon was truely born-again, he would have continued with the apostles and disciples, but didn't(1st John 2:18-19).

When I subsequently went to a web site with a list of commentaries on this, guess what - they were SPLIT 50/50 on this(some thought he was truely born-again, and some didn't).

OK - my point here is that I believe there are some things in scripture(more of the minor-leaning things) that, IMHO, God doesn't make that clear. B/c he knows not only it's alot for us to bear, but this verse came to mind...

1 Corinthians 8:1  Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1Co 8:2  And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1Co 8:3  But if any man love God, the same is known of him.


Our LORD doesn't want us to be puffed up with too much knowledge - but ultimately have CHARITY. Remember brethren - it ultimately what is sown IN OUR HEARTS, NOT in our HEADS!

Mark 7:20  And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22  Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23  All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.



So getting back on to this discussion - I agree with Mark on this - there's no way Satan could have fallen in Genesis 1. Look how many "...and God saw that it was good." phrases in it. So to drive my final point home on all of this - I don't think our LORD wants to us to know all of the gritty details over the exact times Satan fell, b/c ultimately it will puff us up with too much knowledge, and he wants us to WALK BY FAITH AND NOT BY SIGHT(2nd Cor 5:7-8). Just KNOW the BASICS.(man fell in the garden of Eden b/c he fell for Satan's LIE. Sin lead to death. Jesus Christ came to die for all of the sins of the world, so that he can give eternal life to everyone that believeth on his name)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 04, 2015, 04:00:40 pm
Romans 16:17  Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18  For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.


I was just reading John Gill's(an 18th century theologian) commentary on this - he makes some interesting points - one of them being not only false teachers(and ungodly men who crept in unawares) bringing in damnable heresies, but they also cause alot of divisions and strife among the body of Christ. We saw this last year when Greg Miller pushed this gap theory heresy - he ended up sowing seeds of strife among the body of Christ(it came to a point where everyone was just literally mudslinging each other on YT comments section, that it just nearly damaged our testimony to the lost world, and made us look foolish in front of those very perverted version readers that we expose).

I never understood that clearly what "divisions and offences" really is(other than false doctrine) - I think this clears it up a bit more...

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/romans-16-17.html

Romans 16:17

Now I beseech you, brethren

The apostle being about to finish his epistle, and recollecting that he had not given this church any instructions about the false TEACHERS, who had been the cause of all their differences and uneasiness, inserts them here; or he purposely put them in this place, amidst his salutations, that they might be taken the more notice of; and very pertinently, since nothing could more express his great affection and tender concern for them; and these instructions he delivers to them, not in an authoritative way, as he might, and sometimes did, but by way of entreaty, beseeching them, and with the kind and loving appellation of brethren, the more to engage them to attend to what he was about to say to them:

mark them which cause divisions and offences, contrary to the
doctrine which ye have learned.

The men he would have taken notice of were such who divided them in their religious sentiments, introducing heterodox notions, contrary to the doctrine of the Scriptures, of Christ and his apostles, and which they had learned from them; such as justification by the works of the law, the observance of Jewish days, and abstinence from meats, enjoined by the ceremonial law, and that as necessary to salvation; to which some gave heed, and others not, and so were divided; whereas the doctrine of faith is but one, the Gospel is one uniform thing, all of a piece; and those that profess it ought to be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment: hence their minds were alienated from each other, and they began to despise and judge one another, yea, to go into factions and parties, being unwilling to receive and admit each other to communion; and thus by these men they were divided in sentiments, affection, and worship; and which must needs cause offence to the church and the godly members of it, as well as cause many so to be offended, as to stumble and fall from the doctrine of faith, and profession of it, and greatly stagger and distress weak believers, and bring a scandal on religion, and the name and ways of Christ among the world, as nothing does more so than the jars and discords among Christians: wherefore the apostle advises to "mark" such persons, look out for, narrowly watch, strictly observe, and diligently examine them: the metaphor is taken from watchmen, who look out from their watch tower, and observe who are coming, or pass by, and take up suspicious persons, and carefully inquire who they are, and what they are about, and whether friends or foes. So both ministers of the Gospel, and members of churches, should not be asleep, which is the opportunity false teachers take to sow the seeds of false doctrine, discord, and contention, but should watch, and be upon their guard, and look diligently, that none among them fail of, or fall from, the doctrine of grace, or any root of bitterness, error, or heresy as well as immorality, spring up, which may be troublesome, and defile others; they should observe, and take notice of such who are busy to spread false doctrine, should watch their motions, follow them closely, take them to an account, examine their principles ACCORDING to the word of God; and if found to be contrary thereunto, note them as false teachers:

and avoid them;
shun their ministry, drop attendance on it, depart far from them, have no private conversation with them, receive them not into their houses, nor bid them God speed; with such do not eat, have no communion with them at the Lord's table, WITHDRAW from them as disorderly persons, who act contrary to the doctrine and order of the Gospel, and after proper admonition reject them from all fellowship with you.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 08, 2015, 12:03:18 pm
FYI, an Arminian scholar was one of the early proponents of this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_creationism

History[edit]

Gap creationism became increasingly attractive near the end of the 18th century and first half of the 19th century, because the newly established science of geology had determined that the Earth was far older than common interpretations of Genesis and the Bible-based Flood geology would allow. Gap creation allowed religious geologists (who composed the majority of the geological community at the time) to reconcile their faith in the Bible with the new authority of science. According to the doctrine of natural theology, science was in this period considered a second revelation, God's word in nature as well as in Scripture, so the two could not contradict each other.[4]

Gap creationism was popularized by Thomas Chalmers,[5] a professor at the University of Edinburgh, founder of the Free Church of Scotland, and author of one of the Bridgewater Treatises, who attributed it to 17th century Dutch Arminian theologian Simon Episcopius. Other early proponents included Oxford University geology professor and fellow Bridgewater author William Buckland, Sharon Turner and Edward Hitch****.[4]

It gained widespread attention when a "second creative act"[6] was discussed prominently in the reference notes for Genesis in the influential 1917 Scofield Reference Bible.[4]

In 1954, a few years before the re-emergence of Young Earth Flood geology eclipsed Gap creationism, influential evangelical theologian Bernard Ramm wrote in The Christian View of Science and Scripture:[4]

Quote
"The gap theory has become the standard interpretation throughout hyper-orthodoxy, appearing in an endless stream of books, booklets, Bible studies, and periodical articles. In fact, it has become so sacrosanct with some that to question it is equivalent to tampering with Sacred Scripture or to manifest modernistic leanings".


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 18, 2015, 09:48:30 pm
No i do not believe in the Gap Theory. Here are some sermons by Jessie Delewski on the Gap Theory:

Part 1:
In this sermon we begin a study on the gap theory. Does the Bible really teach that there was a huge span of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2? When and where did the teaching of the gap theory enter into the church? In the first part of this study, brother Jessie Delewski will answer these questions, and also prove that the "day-age theory" is unscriptural. You will plainly see that the day age theory is an unnecessary compromise that Christians make between the Bible and the ridiculous evolution theory. We truly must beware of "oppositions of science falsely so called." (1 Timothy 6:20)
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=36111424380

Part 2:
In this sermon we look at the meaning of the word "replenish". Does this word mean "to fill" or to "fill again"? Should we use dictionaries, or the Bible itself to define this word? What about the passage in Jeremiah 4? Are verses 23-26 really speaking about a "pre-Adamite earth"? Or are these verses describing another event?
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=3131113365010

Part 3:
In this message, Jessie Delewski covers the fall of Satan and how this event relates to the supposed "pre-Adamite fall" held by many advocates of the Gap Theory. You will see why this pre-Adamite fall of angelic beings, just doesn't line up with scripture!
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=41111138180

Apparently, Delewski is no longer on sermon audio(a sister on YT pointed this out to me just now). But his teaching on this is on YT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CBBcn8_whE


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 19, 2015, 09:48:03 am
A sister was listening to Jessie's sermon exposing the gap - the LORD helped her catch something that really opened up our understanding to this. All Glory to God!!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lord I pray   "Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.Psalms 119:18" in humbleness and meekness.
How the KJV Bible defines the word "replenish". We compare scripture with scripture, nothing else!   Remember is the law of first mention in the scriptures. God will always explain His word either in the same verse or few verses next to it. Usually he does it first time when the word appears. Are only 7 verses in the Bible that uses the word replenish.

KJV Genesis 1:22   And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and FILL the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

Genesis 1:28   And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genesis 9:1   And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Isaiah 2:6   Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.

Isaiah 23:2   Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished.

Jeremiah 31:25   For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.

Ezekiel 26:2   Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:

Ezekiel 27:25   The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas.

Webster 1828
REPLEN'ISH, verb transitive [Latin re and plenus, full.]
1. To fill; to stock with numbers or abundance. The magazines are replenished with corn. The springs are replenished with water.
Multiply and replenish the earth. Genesis 1:28.
2. To finish; to complete. [Not in use.]
REPLEN'ISH, verb intransitive To recover former fullness.
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/

So God is showing me that my KJV Bibles defines the word replenish in 1611 as TO FILL. This is how I read it so far. I gave a chance to both side stories. I have read all scriptures by using the word replenish as to mean fill again. Then I used the same scriptures by using to mean to fill.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FYI - the number 7 means COMPLETENESS.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 20, 2015, 09:05:25 pm
From the 36:30 - 39:30 mark, Lisle exposes the gap theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YQaBuioNbA


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 27, 2015, 12:02:44 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htbRNcUsB3E


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 28, 2015, 04:05:07 pm
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0012_0_11879.html

LA PEYRÈRE, ISAAC

LA PEYRÈRE, ISAAC (1594 or 1596–1676), French theologian, Bible critic, and anthropologist, apparently of Marrano background. He was born in Bordeaux and raised a Calvinist. In 1640 he became the Prince of Condé's secretary. In 1642–43 he wrote Praeadamitae and Du Rappel des Juifs, which constitute one continuous theory of Bible criticism and Messianism. The Rappel des Juifs was published anonymously in 1643, while the more revolutionary Praeadamitae ("Men Before Adam") was banned and circulated privately in manuscript in France, Holland, and Denmark. In 1644 La Peyrère went to Copenhagen with the French ambassador, and there wrote Relation de Groenland (published 1647), and Relation de l'Islande (published 1663; An Account of Iceland, 1732), landmarks in early anthropology. Queen Christina of Sweden saw his manuscript of the Praeadamitae in Brussels, urged its publication, and agreed to pay the costs. It was printed in 1655 in Amsterdam and Basle (five editions in Latin, 1655; English as Men Before Adam, 1656; Dutch as Praeadamiten, 1661). The book was banned and burned everywhere for its heretical claims that Adam was not the first man, that the Bible is not the history of mankind, but only the history of the Jews, that the Flood was a local event, that Moses did not write the Pentateuch, and that no accurate copy of the Bible exists. Many refutations immediately appeared. La Peyrère was arrested and told he would be released if he turned Catholic and recanted to the Pope, which he did in hypocritical fashion, saying that his heresies resulted from his Calvinist upbringing, and that though all Jews and Christians disagreed with him, and though he could still find no Scriptural or reasonable evidence against his theories, he would abjure them because the Church said they were wrong (Lettre de la Peyrère à Philotime, 1658; Apologie de Peyrère, 1663). The Pope offered him a post, but La Peyrère returned to Paris and became Condé's librarian and a lay member of the Oratorians. There he collected more evidence for his pre-Adamite theory, arguing with the great Bible scholar, Father Richard Simon, and trying unsuccessfully to publish a new version of his Messianic Rappel des Juifs. When he died, one of his friends wrote:

Here lies La Peyrère, that good Israelite, Huguenot, Catholic and finally Pre-Adamite. Four religions pleased him at the same time and his indifference was so uncommon that after 80 years when he had to make a choice the Good Man departed and did not choose any of them.

La Peyrère has been interpreted as a heretic, atheist, deist, Socinian, father of Bible criticism, and father of Zionism. His overall theory is a Marrano Messianist view. La Peyrère argued that the Jews are about to be recalled, that the Messiah is coming for them, that they should join the Christians, and with the king of France rebuild Zion. Then the Jews will rule the world from Jerusalem. La Peyrère was a combination of hard-headed scientist and kabbalistic messianist in developing his case. He argued his pre-Adamite theory first on a farfetched interpretation of St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans, then from information about pagan history, and finally from anthropological evidence about the Indians, Eskimos, and Chinese. His analysis of the Bible played a great role in the development of Higher Criticism, influencing Spinoza and Richard Simon. La Peyrère's messianic theories resemble those of some of the Spanish New Christians and Postel's Kabbalism, but seem unrelated to Shabbetai Ẓevi's movement. His separation of Jewish and gentile histories influenced Vico in the developing secular historiography. La Peyrère's pre-Adamite theory was revived in the early 19th century as a basis for polygenesis and modern racism, claiming the American Indians and the blacks were not sons of Adam.

BIBLIOGRAPHY:

D.C. Allen, The Legend of Noah (1949, 19632), index; D.R. Mc-Kee, in: Publications of the Modern Language Association, 59 (1944), 456–85; R. Pintard, Le libertinage érudit dans la première moitié du xviie siècle, 2 v. (1943), index; H.J. Schoeps, Philosemitismus im Barock (1952), 3–18, 81–87; L. Strauss, Spinoza's Critique of Religion (1965), 64–85.

[Richard H. Popkin]


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 05, 2015, 07:54:52 pm
Acts 4:24  And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

Read this this afternoon(when waiting in line at the SSA office) - it's very obvious that it's talking about ONE EARTH, ONE SEA, and ONE HEAVEN.(the same earth we are currently living in now, that is)

No, there is NO "gap" where a supposedly "older earth" happened.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Christian40 on June 06, 2015, 03:57:25 am
Acts 4:24  And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

Read this this afternoon(when waiting in line at the SSA office) - it's very obvious that it's talking about ONE EARTH, ONE SEA, and ONE HEAVEN.(the same earth we are currently living in now, that is)

No, there is NO "gap" where a supposedly "older earth" happened.

good find :)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 13, 2015, 04:28:15 pm
About 1/2 or so of the time in his presentation, he doesn't use the KJB - however, he very effectively exposed the whole "angelic war" gap nonsense, and ended up learning alot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1p0so5jVw4


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 15, 2015, 10:18:14 am
Revelation 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Doug Hamp in the above video showed this very verse - look at the word FIRST - this very verse just exposes the heretical gap theory through and through right there. Obviously, our present earth IS THE FIRST earth.(and we're awaiting a new heaven and a new earth to dwell in)

I have no idea where gap theory proponents are coming up with this idea that there was some previous earth.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Christian40 on June 16, 2015, 02:27:37 am
Revelation 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Doug Hamp in the above video showed this very verse - look at the word FIRST - this very verse just exposes the heretical gap theory through and through right there. Obviously, our present earth IS THE FIRST earth.(and we're awaiting a new heaven and a new earth to dwell in)

I have no idea where gap theory proponents are coming up with this idea that there was some previous earth.


Good find. They think that satan and the satanic angels lived on earth before God created it. Not so.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 26, 2015, 06:20:50 pm
Well, don't want to drag this out too much - but with all the big news items that we've discussed at length today, why not switch gears just for a tad moment? :)

I've been studying the book of Psalms for the last month or so - and there are verses after verses which MORE THAN PROVE that there's a Biblical Young Earth Creation, and most importantly NO gap theory. Here's one example...

Psalm 143:5  I remember the days of old; I meditate on all thy works; I muse on the work of thy hands.

If there was really a gap "older" earth, why in the world would any born-again believer meditate and muse on THAT? None of us sure wouldn't want to dwell on satan, his fallen angelic demonic angels, and some pre-adamic race of people that supposedly God had no control over the earth with.

Jeremiah 32:17  Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Jer 32:18  Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,
Jer 32:19  Great in counsel, and mighty in work: for thine eyes are open upon all the ways of the sons of men: to give every one according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings:


And speaking of this passage from Jeremiah - did God really show his "lovingkindness" to some pre-adamic race of people in some "older" earth? or satan and his fallen angelic devils for that matter too?



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 02, 2015, 11:50:24 pm
For the most part - I was willing to make this a non-issue(even though this is a complete heresy). And I listen to a ministry or 2 that believes in this doctrine(James Knox being one of them). So yeah, admittedly, if they don't make a big deal out of it, I'm fine with it. Personally, I don't have any qualms with post-trib rapture ministries either that keep an even keep on it(Scott J being one of them). But if they start ranting against Israel and promote replacement theology, THEN I have a problem with it.

However - now I'm starting to see the arrogance with this gap theory crowd - they're no different from these so-called Greek/Hebrew TR "scholars". They act like they're "Dr. Know-it-Alls", thinking they have all the answers, and somehow they think they are above rebuke. And worst of all they are quick to call not only Young Earth Creationists liars, but they'll call other ministries liars and heretics if their doctrines don't like up with their personal agendas.

They are definitely Pharisees and hypocrites indeed!

Luke 12:1  In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 06, 2015, 09:36:35 am
Psalm 104:5  Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Psa 104:6  Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
Psa 104:7  At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
Psa 104:8  They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
Psa 104:9  Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.


gap proponents will almost always use this passage to prove their points - but let's look at the CONTEXT of this verse.

1) Verse 5 says the foundations of the earth shall NOT be removed for ever.

2) With that being said...

(From the creation account)
Genesis 1:9  And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10  And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


As you can see from this Psalm 104 passage, the foundations of the earth(land, seas, mountains, and everything in it) stayed the same.

But en yet in Genesis 1:2, there was NO land on it(yet), until God created the land in Genesis 1:9.

So gap proponents pretty much say that God had to re-create the land on it - but en yet they point to this Psalm 104 passage to try to prove their points, but grossly overlook the fact that the land on it stayed after the flood!


Title: Re: The history of Lucifer and the angelic war
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 07, 2015, 09:53:20 am
Well lets think about this here. All of these people you listed are calling the BIBLE FALSE. Every single one of them. They are saying the Bible has errors or is wrong. You cant have it both ways. GOD said he created everything in 6 days. Not once, not twice but a few times, my Lord says he created EVERYTHING IN 6 LITERAL DAYS. These people are calling him a LIAR.

How do you reconcile this? How can you you really go out and break bread with some one and pray with someone who thinks the God is a LIAR? These people are being deceived by a LIE. The LIE of Evolution, and an old Earth. Neither are true. Ill say this, by reading JUST the King James Bible, there is no way you can come to this conclusion. So what is that saying about these people that believe in an Old Earth/ Satans flood?

It isnt BIBLICAL at all. It is a deception perpetrated by the belief in evolution and an old Earth. People know that "religion" will garner them money if they do it right.

proof: http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,4029.msg56541.html#msg56541

These people are denying the Word of God. What else can you say?

Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psa 12:8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.


Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

I bet most of these people do not believe in the Flood either. Whom do you serve?

Wouldn't surprise me at all - slowly but surely, they are compromising verses like Psalm 104:5-9 to make it look like it's talking about a global flood in some "previous" earth. While others have tried to say how 2nd Peter 3:5-6 isn't talking about Noah's flood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c36LQILHQ18


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 11, 2015, 11:01:29 pm
At the 9:50 mark, Hovind exposes the gap theory through and through - does an excellent job(and learned some things I never thought of before!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wth-zdYpX80


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 15, 2015, 03:11:12 pm
I was just on the Yahoo news site, and saw an article over how they're trying to reconcile (false)science with sodomy.

There's nothing new under the sun - they tried to fit (false)science with the bible 100+ years ago(which all but lead to this Apostasy in the long run), and now they continue to do the same with pseudo-science.

Next thing we know, they might just re-write the entire bible to fit pseudo-science.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 16, 2015, 02:49:43 pm
OK, I don't understand this completely, but I'll do my best here to explain...

Genesis 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


Look at the word "and" in these 3 verses - from what I understand, in the Hebrew language, if a conjunction(I believe the word vav or valve) is used, and it's followed by a NOUN - then ultimately, the sentence structures can NOT be sequential. Which is why in verse 2, they use the word WAS, and NOT became(And the earth WAS without form, and void...).

So ultimately, when you look at this passage - the context is NOT sequential at all. And every single Hebrew scholar(conservative, liberal, or whatever), as well as the Hebrew language for that latter, have debunked the whole gap theory through and through.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 17, 2015, 01:36:39 pm
This is an excellent 4 part sermon expose exposing the gap theory! Found it on sermon audio earlier this week.

Science, Creation and the Gap Theory - Part 1 - James Gallagher
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=71313718472

Science, Creation and the Gap Theory - Part 2
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=71313721275

Science, Creation and the Gap Theory - Part 3
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=71313721275

Science, Creation and the Gap Theory - Part 4
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=71313727210


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 20, 2015, 07:47:49 pm
FYI - the gap theory proponents insist this "angelic war" of Rev 12:7-10 happened BEFORE the 6 day creation period(also known as "Lucifer's flood").

However, we need to keep in mind that this war in heaven b/w Satan and these fallen angels won't happen UNTIL the midway point of the Time of Jacob's Trouble.

Revelation 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


Pt being that don't you see yet more confusion when the gap theory gets dragged into play here? When we look at the scriptures properly, we DO see that Satan STILL has access to heaven(albeit NOT God's domain - in particular his body). However with the gap, we're left with the idea that Satan was casted out of heaven many ages ago, and has no access to heaven anymore - so therefore alot of confusion abounds over why sin, death, wickedness, etc happens in the world.

Also - here's more evidence that Satan still has access to heaven.

Matthew 4:8  Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10  Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


Look at the word EXCEEDING in verse 8 - honestly, I don't think Satan took Jesus up to a physical mountain per se, but possibly into another dimension above the earth?



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on July 20, 2015, 07:58:09 pm
(http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/data/2099633/a/a6/a62bbe54_thumbsup-thumbs-up-approve-ok-smiley-emoticon-000283-facebook.gif)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 28, 2015, 12:04:49 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha47Fo7R4Vk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y50JSqd8YqE


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 29, 2015, 04:14:25 pm
To be perfectly honest, I never heard of the gap theory in my many years of going to these Babel buildings(before I got born-again in 2009, and the LORD revealed to me all of the spiritual corruptions going on in these state-runned churches).

Pt being that strange doctrines can infiltrate anywhere - don't think just b/c you're in a KJB/non-Apostate Babel building setting, that you're completely safe.

Acts 17:19  And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
Act 17:20  For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
Act 17:21  (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
Act 17:22  Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23  For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24  God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25  Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26  And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 31, 2015, 02:13:37 pm
https://bible.org/article/gap-theory-genesis-chapter-one

The Gap Theory of Genesis Chapter One

Preface

When this work was originally written in 1975 the book Unformed and Unfilled by Weston W. Fields had not yet been published. Had it been, it is doubtful if this work would ever have been started. However, Dr. Fields' work is the result of his doctoral thesis and is written at a high academic level. This presentation is aimed at the understanding level of the average person. The author is gratified that his original thesis has been substantiated by such a scholarly work. Nevertheless it is still true that when most Christians are asked their opinion about the “Gap Theory”, they reply with something like “What theory is that?” This answer indicates that in spite of all that has been written about theistic evolution to date; little has been taught in the Sunday Schools or from the pulpit about this topic. This is even more remarkable since this theory was an integral part of the original Scofield Bible notes. Because the initial verses of the Bible are so foundational to the proper understanding and application of the remainder of the Scriptures, it is incumbent that we have a proper understanding of the issue of origins as recorded there.

My motive for producing a work of this nature is two-fold. On the one hand, my scientific training motivates me, and on the other my commitment to the Bible as the verbally inspired, inerrant word of the living God provided the incentive. As a person trained in the sciences, I have investigated, as thoroughly as I could, the claims of science in the realm of origins and evolution. I have found the evolutionary concept of a natural origin and development of all material in the universe to be destitute of true scientific proof and lacking even as a philosophical answer to man's origin, purpose and destiny. The link between evolution and the gap theory is found in the theory's statements that express a desire to provide for the lengthy time periods, or “ages,” required for evolutionary concepts and to harmonize these ages with the Biblical record of creation. My scientific rejection of the basic premises and reasoning behind the gap theory is one reason for this effort.

In regard to the Word of God, the Bible, I can best sum my feelings by referring the reader to an oft quoted passage of Scripture, II Timothy 2:15. “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth” (KJV). This verse points out three very important facets of dealing with the Word of God. First, the Word is to be approached “eagerly” and with “enthusiasm”, which is what the word study implies. The Word should be more than just read, since studying implies learning, and learning comes only from understanding. It is certain that one will have to put forth more effort and dig deeply to arrive at this understanding, but this exertion will provide a sound basis for any resultant action. Second, I am to engage in this study for the purpose of pleasing God and not to satisfy the demands of men, nor to enable a dtente to exist between the absolute declarations of an almighty, omniscient God and the relativism of humanistic, secular philosophies. This purpose of Bible study should ever be recognized not only in personal study but in group study as well. Third, I am admonished to rightly divide the Word. The idea is that I am to use a straight line for my walk through the Scriptures and not a tortuous path that can lead to confusion and misunderstanding. It is apparent that the Timothy verse implies that many divide the Word improperly, and this error is to be guarded against. To allow secular theory to dictate the meaning of many important verses and passages of Scripture is not consistent with the above admonition. This verse in II Timothy is my second justification for what I have written.

I trust that what follows will be understandable, useful and meaningful to your study of the Biblical account of God’s creative actions.

Definition

The gap theory postulates that an indefinite span of time exists between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. This time span is usually considered to be quite large (millions of years) and is also reputed to encompass the so-called “geologic ages.” Proponents of the gap theory also postulate that a cataclysmic judgment was pronounced upon the earth during this period as the result of the fall of Lucifer (Satan) and that the ensuing verses of Genesis chapter 1 describe a re-creation or reforming of the earth from a chaotic state and not an initial creative effort on the part of God.

History and Purpose

The gap theory is not of recent origin but can be traced back to the early 19th century when the new discipline of geology was breaking upon the scientific scene. Theologians were in no intellectual position to argue, from a scientific basis, the claims of the geologists that the processes responsible for the formation of the surface features of the earth were occurring at almost imperceptibly slow rates as they had always done in the past (the principle of uniformity). Rather than accept the accusation that the Biblical record was no longer valid in the light of “scientific” claims, they chose to accommodate the Scriptural presentation to these new geological theories. A place had to be found for the vast ages of the past, well beyond the accounts of the first man and his environment as recorded in the Bible, and the most accommodating place was between the two aforementioned verses of Genesis.

While the gap theory, or ruin-reconstruction theory as it is sometimes called, is not the only effort at this type of accommodation, it is the most popular theory among those who feel the Biblical record of origins merits their attention. Some have even proposed that the gap should be placed prior to Genesis 1:1, but they insist on a “gap” nevertheless.

It is the author’s opinion that while these efforts at reconciling the Bible with geological claims are very enthusiastic and sincere, they are quite unnecessary. The Text, as given, is quite capable of standing alone in the face of all the criticism that can be engendered by so-called “scientific” claims and theological interpretations. One important fact should be kept in mind when considering the gap theory. This interpretation of Genesis and associated passages of Scripture was not developed in an effort to solve apparent problems with the Text. It was not difficulties with the fall of Satan or the condition of the earth during the six days that precipitated the theory. It was, and is, an effort to solve the problem of time. The time of the earth’s formation, according to natural science, is extremely long and drawn-out, while the Biblical record describes a relatively recent, rapid formation. There were, and still are, those who are quite unwilling to make a decisive choice between these two accounts and thus the gap theory.

Geological Ages and Evolution

As has been previously pointed out, the gap theory, along with other accommodation theories, is an attempt to reconcile a great age for the earth, as presented by geologists, with the relatively young age as deduced from the Biblical record. Since many proponents of the gap theory would disclaim a belief in an evolutionary process of earth history, it is instructive to evaluate the “geologic ages” to determine if they can, indeed, be separated from the theory of evolution.

The geologic ages represent the time scale of the standard geologic column. This so-called “column” is composed of animal and plant fossil remains found in layers of sedimentary and igneous rock. These remains are arranged in layers and interpreted by geologists and paleontologists to present a record of gradual developmental sequences that propose to demonstrate the gradual evolutionary change of simple forms of animal or plant life into different, more complex forms. The record of ascendancy is thought to be from simpler forms in very ancient times to the more complex forms in modern times. Figure 1 shows a simplified diagram of the geologic column with the postulated life forms and their assumed age eras. It is most important to understand that in the “geologic column” the ages of the various layers are determined by the form of the fossil remains found therein. Older levels in the column are “old” only because they contain what are believed to be simpler, more primitive, less developed or incompletely evolved life forms. The invertebrates are assumed to have evolved first, followed by fish, amphibians, reptiles and mammals in that order. It should be obvious that the basis of the structure and arrangement of the geologic column is the concept of slowly evolving life forms which in reality and fact is the THEORY OF EVOLUTION as proposed by Charles Darwin in 1859.

One can easily disclaim his or her adherence to, or belief in, evolution, but acceptance of the geologic column with its attendant “ages” contradicts this claim. The situation is an either/or one. As the old adage so well expresses it, “one cannot have his cake and eat it too.”

Scientific Dilemmas

Gap theorists hold that the need for a re-creation, as they interpret Genesis chapter one, is based on the loss of plants, animal life and surface features of the alleged prior creation due to a world-wide, complete, catastrophic judgment imposed upon the earth as a result of the fall of one called “Lucifer.” This proposed judgment would appear so complete as to even cause the loss of light upon the earth. This of course implies that the entire solar system, if not the universe, was destroyed. There can be no doubt that such a judgmental act would also have a serious, if not disastrous, effect upon the geological features of the then existent earth. Most gap proponents place this judgmental catastrophe just prior to the re-creative effort. However, its placement in reference to geological time, at the beginning or end, does not remove the following major dilemma.

The gap theory exists for the purpose of allowing the geologic “ages” as proposed by the assemblage of the geologic column. Those geologists who believe in the veracity of this “column” as to its testimony of earth and life development do not believe in or allow for a world-wide catastrophic causation for the formations therein.
These geologists, being Uniformitarians, reject out-of-hand the gap theory as having any validity in describing the early earth. This is the first dilemma. The theory is rejected by the very ones it is meant to appease.

The second dilemma is that the effects of such a catastrophic event in earth history, as proposed by the gap theory, would preclude the survival of the very geologic phenomena the theory purports to support. Such destructive forces as to leave the earth “waste and void” (gap theory terms) in its totality would surely disturb or remove any of the evidence used to adduce the geologic column and the geologic ages in the first place.

If, as some gap theorists claim, the judgment was responsible for the formation of the fossil record, then the geologic column must have been formed rapidly contrary to the opinions of the evolutionary geologists. Thus there were no vast geologic ages in the first place. Regardless of what tack the gap theory sets out on, in regard to the judgmental catastrophe used to punish “Lucifer” prior to or subsequent to the geologic ages, the gap theory is self-negating. That is, the very concept that spawned it is done away by it. This might be referred to as a “suicidal” concept. In spite of this impasse in logic and the presence of such an imposing dilemma, the gap theory is believed to be supported by Scriptural references. This seems contradictory to the very nature and character of the God who says “. . . let us reason together . . . ”

Gap Theory Proofs

Since many of the advocates of the gap theory subscribe to the validity of the Scriptures, an effort is made to substantiate the “gap” claims by appealing to word studies and textual references connected with comments and phrases found in the Genesis narrative. These references are not too numerous, and we can deal with substantially all of them in this paper.

The first “proof” offered is usually an effort at creating an impassable distinction between the words “create” and “made” as found in the first chapter of Genesis. The contention being that only the word “create” (bara in Hebrew) can mean to call forth out of nothing and subsequently the words “make” or “form” (asah in Hebrew) must be interpreted to mean a re-fashioning or making from pre-existing material. It is presumed, by the gap theory, that this pre-existent material is the substance, or debris remaining after the earth underwent the judgmental action we have describe earlier. While it is true that the two words in question are different and can have distinct, separate meanings, they also are used synonymously throughout the Scriptures. In fact “bara” is not always used to describe a calling forth out of nothing. The word is used in Isaiah 65:18 in reference to a restored Jerusalem and not the original creation of that city. The distinction made, in support of the gap, is artificial and strained to say the least. That the two words are used to express the same concept in regard to God’s creative abilities can be seen by comparing Genesis 1:1, which uses “bara” with the following verses (all KJV) which use “asah.”

Genesis 1:31; 2:2-4
Exodus 20:11
II Kings 19:15
II Chronicles 2:12
Nehemiah 9:6
Psalms 33:6; 96:5; 115:15; 121:2; 124:8; 134:3; 136:5; 146:6
Proverbs 8:26
Ecclesiastes 3:11
Isaiah 37:16; 44:24; 45:12, 18
Jeremiah 10:12; 27:5; 32:17; 51:15

The twenty six verses listed above all use the word “asah” (make) not “bara” (create) to describe the same actions of God that are declared in Genesis 1:1, where “bara” is used. As you read these verses you will note that the majority of the cited passages refer explicitly and pointedly to the “making” of the heavens as declared in the Genesis 1:1 account. Clearly the two words are synonymous when used to describe God’s creative acts. The two words in question, “create” and “make,” are also used with the same intent and meaning when animals and man are formed. Compare Genesis 1:21 with 1:25, and then 1:26 with 1:27. One cannot argue that the 1:21 verse only pertains to “conscious life,” inasmuch as the physical bodies of the animals are also included in the stated act. Thus it is impossible to conclude that there is sufficient distinction between “bara” and “asah” so as to interpret the latter in a sense that restricts it to only meaning a “re-forming” in the Genesis narrative. Either word can, and is used to describe God’s creative acts “ex nihilo.”

A second “proof” put forth to substantiate the gap theory is the declaration that the word “was” in Genesis 1:2 should be translated “became.” This, of course, is done so as to allow a change of state to occur from verse one to verse two. That is, the initial, perfect creation of verse one “became” without form and void, indicating a transition to have occurred. It is true that the word used here in the Genesis text can be translated as either “was” or “became,” however it is the context of the passage which dictates the choice of the word. This means that the transition or change of state must first be clearly understood from the overall picture (context) as presented in the passage. Perhaps a few examples will suffice. Passages such as Genesis 3:22; 19:26; 21:20 and Exodus 7:19; 8:17; 9:10 demonstrate “became” properly used in context.

In each case a change of state is observed. Adam becomes as God; Lot’s wife becomes a pillar of salt; Ishmael becomes an archer; the water becomes blood; the dust of the earth becomes lice; the ashes become a boil. “Become” is obviously the correct choice in each of these passages since none of the subjects existed in the stated condition originally. Incidentally, these passages represent the entirety of the use of “became” as a translation of the word in question throughout the entire Pentateuch. An exact grammatical parallel of Genesis 1:2 is found in Jonah 3:3 where we read, “And Jonah arose and went into Nineveh . . . now Nineveh was an exceeding great city” (KJV). It is obvious that Nineveh did not become a great city when Jonah entered it, but its greatness is a description of its existing condition at the time of his entry. This is the case in Genesis 1:2. The earth was, from the creation event of verse one, in a condition described as “without form and void.” This was the presently existing condition and does not represent a change of state or condition. There are no words in the immediate or surrounding text which would lead one to see the condition of the earth in a context that demands the use of the word “became” in place of the word “was.” The translation “was” occurs several hundred times in the Pentateuch, each time in the context of an existing state. The “and” or “now” which introduces verse two appears to have a two-fold purpose. One is to make a smooth, even transition from verse one, to keep the dialogue flowing without interruption, and the other is to turn our attention from the all encompassing creation of God, the heavens and earth, and direct it toward a narrower perspective, the earth itself. The remainder of the discussion, and indeed the majority of the Bible itself, deals with events on or concerning the earth. Thus the assertion that the earth “became” instead of “was” really cannot be used to support the gap theory position. It does, however, as many of these so called “proof” texts do, lend weight to the oft quoted saying that a “text out of context is a pretext.”

Additional support for the gap theory is recruited, or perhaps conscripted is better, from the phrase “without form and void.” An appeal is made to consider other Biblical texts in which these words are found together and it is pointed out that these passages, Isaiah 24:1 and Jeremiah 4:23 are judgmental in character and context. This claim is true only if one limits the context to the verses, for when considered in their complete context the support begins to vanish. In both of the cited passages the judgment which is spoken of is future and is not a statement of a past action of God. The subjects of the judgments are Israel and Edom and not the entire earth. Not only is it a future judgment limited to a specific peoples, but the judgment spoken of is itself limited, not a comprehensive world wide judgment as required by the gap theory. Both Isaiah and Jeremiah, in the context of the subject judgments, show that there will be survivors on the earth (or land) that is to be “without form and void.” This would certainly not be true for the postulated condition following the world-wide catastrophe as claimed.

These two verses are not the only ones containing these words in the Old Testament. They are used in a number of places and translated with a variety of words. Without giving an exhaustive analysis of these verses, it suffices to say that they are all suitably translated by rendering the Hebrew “tohu” and “bohu” (without form, void) as “empty” and “lifeless.” Usually the implication is a place not suitable for habitation such as a desert. This condition could be the result of a judgmental action, but again as before, the context must show that to be the case. A context of divine judgment is difficult, if not impossible, to exegete from Genesis chapter one. It is clear from the text that the necessary and desirable features of an earth suitable for man’s habitation were absent in Genesis 1:2, however, this does not justify the interpretation that “without form and void” means ruined, chaotic or judged.

An additional appeal is made by the gap theorists to Isaiah 45:18 where it is stated that the earth was not created in “vain” (tohu). They claim that since this is so in Isaiah, the “tohu” of Genesis 1:2 precludes the condition of Genesis 1:1 as being contiguous. When one considers the remainder of Isaiah 45:18 the context becomes clear. The verse continues by stating that “He (God) formed (asah) it (the earth) to be inhabited.” The word in opposition to vain is inhabited, thus allowing the rendering of “tohu” as uninhabited. The verse does not then speak of a condition, but of an intention or purpose. It was not God’s purpose to create the earth to be uninhabited and the remainder of the Genesis narrative tells how God achieved His desired end, a complete creation dwelt in by those created in His own image. The concept of empty or lifeless is still suitable. Thus the phrase “without form and void” is not an indication of a chaotic state, but the earth is well ordered and awaiting further commands from God.

Some gap theorists continue on in verse two of the first chapter of Genesis and interpret the word “darkness” to describe an evil or ungodly condition. This, however, is a meaning forced upon the word by the theory and not the meaning of the text. Proceeding on to verse five finds the darkness receiving a name, “night,” and being considered as part of a twenty four hour day as implied by the words evening and morning. There is nothing in the text that would indicate that physical darkness, and that is what is in view here, has any evil connotation whatsoever. In fact the Psalmist declares in Psalm 104:20, “Thou (God) makest darkness . . . ” and then goes on in verse 24, still in context, to declare “O Lord, how manifold are thy works, in wisdom hast thou made then all” (KJV). The reference, of course, is to physical darkness or nighttime, and no evil connotation is implied. To say that an evil condition exists in Genesis 1:2 because of physical darkness is giving a meaning to the word not found elsewhere in the Scriptures. Spiritual darkness is another matter entirely, but there is no warrant for making such an inference in the Genesis verse under consideration.

Attention is often directed to the word “replenish” in Genesis 1:28 in an effort to support the gap theory postulate that this is the second go-around for life on earth. On searching through a rather thorough Hebrew lexicon, I was unable to find a single word for “replenish” or “refill.” Only the word “fill” is listed and again the context of the passage must be used to determine whether an initial or subsequent filling is meant. With the verse in question there is no textual cause to render the word “refill” as there might be in Genesis 9:1 where Noah and his sons have the job of starting all over again. One cannot cease to stress the importance of contextual consideration when investigating the meaning, use or implication of words and phrases in the Scriptures.

Perhaps the most touted “proof” offered for the gap theory resides in the speculation that the “gap” provides an excellent place to chronologically insert the fall and judgment of Lucifer into earth history. Elaborate details are invoked to picture the perfect creation in verse one despoiled by a cataclysmic judgment of sin prior to verse two that resulted as a consequence of Lucifer’s prideful attitude toward God and his (Lucifer’s) subsequent punishment. This argument is probable the most impressive of all inasmuch as Satan (Lucifer) is a viable reality to those who believe the Scriptures and his attitude toward God and God’s attitude toward him is clearly revealed. The “proof” texts offered in this cause are of course, Isaiah 14:12 to 15, and Ezekiel 28:12 to 19. These texts have been quoted to the end mentioned above so many times that we have a tendency to accept them as such. However, it would appear that a very careful study of the entire context and the wording of the above passages reveal a slightly different picture. First consider the Isaiah passage. To set the context begin at least with chapter 13 and read through verse 23 of chapter 14. One will immediately see that the subject of this entire judgmental passage is the kingdom of Babylon. The prophecy is stated to be about Babylon (chapter 13:1) and its judgment, and in chapter 14 a restoration of Israel is first mentioned, then the portion from verse 4 to 23 is called a “proverb” or “taunting speech” (KJV marginal note). This is to be a “saying,” if you will, of Israel in regard to their former enemy and conqueror during the captivity. With Israel, the downtrodden, restored in verses 1 and 2 and Babylon the great one, completely destroyed, Israel can boast to the other nations of their (Israel’s) favor in the eyes of the Lord (perhaps as a warning) and they are to do so with the passage under consideration. Verse 12 of chapter 14 does not begin a new thought on the subject, but is an integral part of a smooth flowing narrative describing the defeated and demolished Babylon. Perhaps it is the word “Lucifer” of verse 12 which causes this verse to be removed from its context and made to describe a totally unrelated event. The Hebrew words translated “Lucifer” are literally nothing more than “day star,” “shining one” or “sun of the dawn,” and are used as a description of the king of Babylon. The Babylonians gave great credence to astrology and perhaps there is some implication of that in this passage. The language used in the text is such as would be used by the king of Babylon to describe himself, and thus becomes even more caustic (the purpose of the saying) when compared to his final end. The language of verses 13 and 14 likewise reflect the extreme egocentric thinking that is usually present in the mind of an absolute, tyrannical monarch. The purpose of such descriptions is to establish a very vivid and marked contrast between the two conditions of the kingdom of Babylon, from the heights of greatness and prosperity to the depths of eternal hell.

The passage goes on to describe some of the king’s actions such as “shaking kingdoms,” and “destroying cities.” This, of course, would require a civilization (human) to be present at that time, and the judgment of such persons, if the gap exists, presents some very difficult theological problems, in relation to their eternal destiny, that will not be dealt with in this paper. The king is also referred to as one “. . . who would not let his captives go home.” This, undoubtedly, refers to the Israel captivity in Babylon, and not an action of Satan himself. The text continues to describe kings who have died prior to the fall of the subject monarch, (verses 18-20) and were not destroyed by a world-wide judgment. One additional fact should be pointed out to help establish the point that a human king and not Satan is the subject. Verse 22 declares that God will keep any relative of the deposed regent from ever regaining the throne of Babylon. God says, in effect, that He is ending the dynasty. Certainly there would have been no need for such action had Satan been the ruler in view. The angels of heaven have no descendants. The conclusion, therefore, is that the passage in question refers rather explicitly to a human ruler who lives, reigns and dies subsequent to the events of Genesis chapter one.

In regard to the Ezekiel passage, there is perhaps more debate on the application of this text than the Isaiah passage due to the language employed. Yet, the text itself again tells us to whom the message is to be applied, “a lamentation upon the king of Tyre.” In fact the context of this portion goes back to the beginning of chapter 26 where prophecies against Tyre begin. It should also be observed that the section of Ezekiel beginning with chapter 19 and continuing through chapter 39 consists of a series of prophecies against various nation and city-states, namely Israel, Jerusalem, Samaria, Babylon, Ammon, Tyre, Egypt, Seir, Gog, Magog and other individuals and places. All of these prophecies are apparently aimed at the future of real, earthly, human kingdoms, and there is no suggestion that Ezekiel has been commanded to utter a prophecy against any heavenly creatures. While it is argued that the language of chapter 28:12-17 cannot be applied to any earthly being, but must refer to one possessing angelic qualities, it can also be said that the same contrast as in the Isaiah passage is being developed. While the language is highly symbolic and figurative, it is an attempt to demonstrate that the elegance of position and possession of authority should not be allowed to go to one’s head. No matter how exalted the person or place is, in man’s eyes, there is always a responsibility to God attendant with the blessed condition. All authority is given by God (Romans 13:1) and the authority is thus responsible to God. When the nation’s leader or any authority sees itself as the origin of that authority and engages in unwarranted self-esteem, it is usually brought down in a humbling fashion.

Similar language to that of Chapter 28:12 to 17 is found in chapter 31:3 through 17 where the already fallen Assyrians are described as being envied by all the “trees of Eden that were in the garden of God." Their downfall, through pride, is described in verse 10 of this passage. Verse 18 indicates that symbology is being used in reference to the trees of Eden since they are said to be “slain” and “cast into the nether parts of the earth.” It is this same type of symbology that is being used throughout the Ezekiel discourse, and it cannot be firmly linked to a description of a previous downfall of Satan and the introduction of sin into the universe. How Satan came to be what he is, is shrouded in mystery, however his judgment and fall from heaven is described and it is a future event, not past history. Satan still has access to heaven as the account in Job 1:6,7 clearly indicates. Satan is also described as standing before the heavenly throne accusing the brethren. Revelation 12:7 to 13 describes this and the fall of Satan to earth. Revelation 20:10 describes the judgment imposed upon Satan. Jesus’ comment in Luke 10:18 can only be interpreted as a prophetic statement in light of the Revelation verses. There are no other verses in the entire Bible that force an historical, as opposed to a prophetic, interpretation of these verses.

The verses of Genesis chapter 1 most certainly describe the beginning of the physical universe (time, energy/matter, and dimension) suitable for occupation by man. Job 39:7 would infer that spiritual beings were present during this event. Of course we know that all things were created (Col. 1:16, John 1:3), but the chronology of the created spiritual beings is not given. It must be noted that even if Satan was already "fallen" before the creation of the physical universe, the physical universe could still be referred to as "very good." One could speculate that when the "morning stars sang" and the "sons of God shouted for joy" that Satan, seeing the creation of the earth and the inhabitants thereon, desired to rule over them. This of course would not support the Gap Theory postulate of a "fall" between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis. Finding Satan in his degenerate state in Genesis 3 has always been a theological conundrum.

Returning for the moment to the “proof” texts of Isaiah and Ezekiel, we do not find in these texts any wording or comments that imply or state that the imposed judgments, on the various kings and kingdoms, were global in scale or effect. Thus, even if one were to allow for a parallel between these verses and the fall of Satan, there is no textual justification for imposing a primeval world-wide, cataclysmic judgment upon the entire earth. The only judgment of such a nature, to date, is found in Genesis chapter 7 and this event is subsequent to Genesis 1:1,2.

In regard to the subject of the fall of Satan and the Genesis “gap” the question might be asked, “if the gap is a necessary time interval during which the ‘fall’ is accomplished, how long does it take to achieve such a ‘fall’ and subsequent judgment?” One cannot really answer such a question. However, the descriptions of the fall (Luke 10:18 and Revelation 12:19) would certainly imply a rapid descent, and the judgment (Revelation 20:20) does not appear to be a lingering event. So if we allow, for the sake of discussion, that this future event did occur between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 there is no need to postulate vast ages of time, other than to support the geologic ages of evolutionary presuppositions.

Textual Harmony Problems

We have looked, in some detail, at the verses quoted by the gap theorists in support of their position. There are many other Scriptural problems that the gap theory must also face. In understanding God’s word to us we must consider each part of the revealed text in relation to every other part. That is, the Scriptures must present themselves as a unified whole, non-contradictory and cohesive throughout. Each precept and doctrine must be supported by all pertinent sections of the Bible and where conflicts occur, we must question our interpretation or understanding of the subject in question. The gap theory should be analyzed in just such a fashion. The descriptive statements promulgated in support of the theory must be compared to all of Scripture, not just the “proof” texts we have already considered. With this in mind the following is offered for your consideration.

The developmental sequence of the creation week (six days) must not only be thought of in a chronological sense, but it must also be considered as a cumulative event as well. That is, the conditions brought about on day one are still present on day two, and day two really represents a sum of the actions of day one and two, and so on through the week. The gap theorists have Satan fallen to the earth prior to day one, but still present throughout the subsequent week. They postulate, for example, that day two is not described as “good” since the atmosphere was made that day, and Satan is known as the “prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2). There are two problems that occur with this reasoning. First, Satan is also referred to as the “prince of this world” three times in the Gospel of John alone, and the earth (world) is nevertheless called “good” in Genesis 1:10. Secondly, if Satan is present, and we all agree that he is the embodiment of evil and ungodliness, why does the summary statement of Genesis 1:31 declare that everything that God had made during the week was not only “good,” but “very good?” Incidentally, this verse also covers the creative acts of day two, when the atmosphere was made, so it too is considered “very good.” It would appear that there would be conditions present on the earth (the fossil record) subsequent to the gap theory judgment and during the creation week that would give stark testimony to the death and destruction of the proposed wrath of God. How these conditions, which would still be evident in the “fossil record,” could be called “very good” with the reason (Satan) for the destruction still at liberty on the earth is hard to understand.

The gap theorists would have us believe that a long break occurs between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and then in verse three the “re-creation” week begins. This reasoning would separate the “creation of heaven and earth” from the rest of the week by some indefinite time period, and certainly then, by their own reasoning, the ‘heaven and earth” creation cannot be considered to be a part of the re-creative week which follows. There are some Scriptures which disagree with this logic, namely Genesis 2:1 to 4 and Exodus 20:11 and 31:17. These verses clearly include the creation or making of the “heaven and earth” within the six creative days. To insist on a creation of the “heaven and earth” separate from the six stated days does great injustice to these texts. It must be pointed out that the Genesis 1:1 statement is the only creative statement in the entire first chapter with reference to “heaven.” If we are to understand the words of the Exodus verses in the sense of their clear, plain meaning and common usage, then we must conclude that day one began with Genesis 1:1, and therefore no gap.

The postulated judgment of the pre-Adamic world is said by the gap theorists to be a complete and catastrophic dealing with sin as a result of Satan’s fall. This judgment is claimed to have destroyed a perfect earth and all its inhabitants. It is assumed that this destruction resulted in the death of those primeval beings who populated the planet at that time. Since we are obviously dealing with the earth and not the entire universe, a major conflict arises between the theory and other Scriptures. A study of the fifth chapter of Romans reveals that death did not appear on the earth prior to Adam’s transgression. Added to this are the claims of I Corinthians 15:21, 22 that by “man came death” and “as in Adam all die.” It is easily seen from these Scriptures that death on the earth did not precede Adam’s sin, but resulted from it. To insist that anything died prior to the judgment passed upon Adam is to be in contradiction with these passages in Romans and Corinthians. We must remember that one of the reasons for having a gap theory in the first place is to accommodate the geologic ages with their extensive fossil records. The fossil record which is assumed to have developed slowly over the eons, speaks clearly and eloquently of death and destruction and if it is allowed to be found prior to either Satan’s or Adam’s fall as the adherents of the theory claim, then the logic leads us to the conclusion that death is not the result of anyone’s sin, but must be attributed to the design and purpose of God in His alleged “original” creation. This reasoning is quite contrary to the person and character of God. In a context of judgment and deserved death (Ezekiel 18:32 and 33:11), God declares “I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth” (KJV, emphasis mine).

It would appear from the claims of the gap theory that the fossil record can be explained in one of two ways. First the classical evolutionary concept of a slow formation using presently observed (?) processes acting at present rates (uniformitarianism), or as a result of the postulated cataclysm resulting from the judgment of Satan. The first concept, which needs the geological “ages” and is believed by a large segment of the population, we reject as being a patently unscientific concept to account for sudden death and preservation of soft parts of animal structures. The second concept allows for an abrupt change in the environment which could achieve the observed result. There is, however, a major problem with this concept since it places this calamity prior to the great world-wide flood of Noah’s day, which in reality is the true explanation for the majority of the fossil record. If the ruinous event proposed for Genesis 1:2 is the cause of the fossil records that we see today, what effect did the flood of Genesis chapter 7 have upon the earth? In an effort to solve this problem, many gap theorists have proposed one of two flood views. The first, and most absurd, is that of a “tranquil,” world-wide flood. In this concept the water that covered the earth rose and abated with nor much more than a ripple. It is postulated that the waters were so gentle that they had no effect on the surface features of the earth. This precludes the effects of tides, so the moon, whose gravity attraction is responsible for the ocean tides, must not have existed either. Also the observation of one heavy rainstorm refutes this concept. The second, and more prevalent, view is that the flood of Noah’s day was only a “local” flood and not world-wide in scope or effect. This idea is in conflict with the many Scriptures describing the flood, but the most serious problem it raises is found when reading the statements of God as found in Genesis 8:21 and 9:15. God says, in these verses, that He will never again food the earth as He did in Noah’s day. Now, if His action was only that of causing a local flood in the Mesopotamian valley, then the promise to never do such a thing again has been broken time and time again over the ensuing centuries. This explanation of the flood does nothing more than impugn the veracity of God!

As a last example of the gap theory’s inability to harmonize with the full content of the Scriptures, let us look for a moment at a particularly important verse, Romans 14:12. This verse teaches the individual responsibility of man before God. I am not responsible for your sin any more than you are responsible for mine. My sin is an act of my will and expresses my corrupt nature as inherited from Adam. Nevertheless it is I alone that must give an account of my relationship with God. I can claim the blood of Jesus Christ as payment for my individual sin and be accounted as acceptable to be in God’s presence or, as many have, reject the gracious provision given by God. The point is it is an individual undertaking, and decision either way. This concept is not hidden in obscure Biblical texts requiring complicated interpretations to unravel, but is the open claim of the entire Scriptures. With this thought in mind, it is difficult to conceive of a disastrous judgment upon the earth and all its inhabitants because of the action of one angel whose home was not the earth in the first place. This appears to be contrary to the perfect judgmental actions of God as recorded throughout the Bible. Abraham put it very well when he was pleading (indeed bargaining) with God not to destroy Sodom. In Genesis 18:25 we read, “Far be it from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: . . . Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? (KJV)" To have slain all those dwelling on the earth for the misconduct of an angel would be capricious to say the least. There are no verses that declare that the entire earth became sinful after a “fall” of Satan. Each angel is responsible for their own behavior before the God who created them, just as I am.

Conclusions

The previous sections of this paper have attempted to demonstrate that the so called “gap theory” is unacceptable from several points of view. From a scientific perspective there is no support from either the facts of science or the postulates of the evolutionary concept of “geologic ages.” As to the theory’s relation to Scriptural content, it has been shown that the claimed “proofs” are superficial and mostly contradictive to the immediate and overall context of the verses applied. These problems are not unexpected, and the incomplete acceptance of such a theory by the Biblical community comes as no surprise when one considers that the primary purpose of the theory is an attempt at reconciliation with humanistic science. This appeasement must be rejected in whatever form it is found since it can only detract from the sacred Scriptures and can add nothing to them. There is nothing in the considered Genesis text that requires such a concept as the gap theory. Our understanding of God’s Word is important and vital both in Christian witnessing and in the conduct of our personal lives.

It is important to understand that this presentation is not meant to attack the proponents of the gap theory but only the theory itself. This theory, originating as it has, falls in the category of a deceptive teaching which can have adverse effects upon those who will believe it. It is in this context that we should heed the warning given by the Apostle Peter (II Peter 3:17,18):

“Ye therefore, beloved, seeing you know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (KJV).


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 12, 2015, 05:52:18 pm
This just hit me today - it seems like ever since Hovind went in(and out) of prison, the gap theory heresy really started to infiltrated the KJB body of believers. Personally, I never heard of this until 2-3 years ago. No, none of the SBC Freemasonic Babel Buildings mentioned nigh a word about it.(but that's a different story)

Anyhow - Hovind all but made exposing this gap theory heresy the backbone of his ministry - but like said above, ever since he went in and out of prison, it seemed to really have infiltrated not only the KJB body of believers, but even non-501c3 ministries have preached supporting it as well recently.

And here's the worst part - it's not so much the gap proponent pushers have gotten more aggressive, but the anti-gap crowd(like myself) have all but STOOD DOWN and acted like it's a non-issue. Even Bryan Denlinger has this same attitude(I kind of wish he would have the same passion exposing this heresy, like he does exposing post-trib and all the false post-trib teachers). And the other anti-gap crowd like bro Scott Johnson have too much on their plate now.

And in addition - it seems like most of the anti-gap crowd are post-tribbers(ie-Scott, Jason Cooley, Sam Adams, Christopher Johnson, etc).

I was in this same boat for awhile, but what born-again believers need to realize is that Genesis is THE most important book of the bible! Not just the creation account, but also predestination, election, and other important doctrines come out of their as well. You turn your back on this book, pretty much a lot of confusion will creep in.

Just stand fast to God's word!


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 18, 2015, 08:43:55 pm
I'm not trying to put Hovind up as a golden calf or anything - but in light of what's being exposed of him recently(embracing Emergent beliefs) - I really hate to say this, but it's only going to give more ammunition to gap theory proponents.

If anything, this damnable heresy has really infiltrated the KJB body of believers since he went in and out of jail.

For a long time, I was willing to have this as a non-issue(and to some extent now, I still do) - however, every now and then, I would see comments on YT videos(for example) every now and then from Christians(or professing ones maybe) starting to doubt the 6 day creation account.

I don't know when the rapture will happen, but as much as I hate to say it - definitely anticipate the growing number of (professing)Christians doubting the word of God like this.

Once you start to doubt the 6 day creation account, nothing but confusion concerning understanding scripture will be a FREE FALL from thereon!

James 3:14  But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jas 3:15  This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16  For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jas 3:17  But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jas 3:18  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 19, 2015, 10:58:51 am
Eccl 3:11  He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Eccl 8:17  Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 20, 2015, 11:03:16 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhEGjW36MIM


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 20, 2015, 08:22:31 pm
http://www.thewatcherfiles.com/bluebeam.html
PROJECT BLUE BEAM

The infamous NASA Blue Beam Project has four different steps in order to implement the new age religion with the antichrist at its head. We must remember that the new age religion is the very foundation for the new world government, without which religion the dictatorship of the new world order is completely impossible. I'll repeat that: Without a universal belief in the new age religion, the success of the new world order will be impossible! That is why the Blue Beam Project is so important to them, but has been so well hidden until now.

The first step concerns the breakdown of all archeological knowledge. It deals with the setup with artificially created earthquakes at certain precise locations on the planet where, supposedly, new discoveries will finally explain to all people the error of all fundamental religious doctrines. The falsification of this information will be used to make all nations believe that their religious doctrines have been misunderstood for centuries and misinterpreted. Psychological preparations for that first step have already been implemented with the film, "2001: A Space Oddessy;" the StarTrek series, and "Star Wars;" all of which deal with invasions from space and the coming together of all nations to repel the invaders. The last films, "Jurrassic Park," deals with the theories of evolution, and claim God's words are lies.

What is important to understand in the first step is that those earthquakes will hit at different parts of the world where scientific and archeological teachings have indicated that arcane mysteries have been buried. By those types of earthquakes, it will possible for scientists to re-discover those arcane mysteries which will be used to discredit all fundamental religious doctrines. This is the first preparation for the plan for humanity because what they want to do is destroy the beliefs of all Christians and Muslims on the planet. To do that, they need some false "proof" from the far past that will prove to all nations that their religions have all been misinterpreted and misunderstood.

more in the link

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is exactly what this heretical gap theory is doing - how can those that are preaching and pushing this, expose these falsified claims with their falsifying dating methods? They can expose evolution all they want, but are left defenseless if they support the gap theory.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 23, 2015, 10:08:33 pm
I was listening to a pastor's sermon today exposing Mormonism - apparently, this cult believes in the gap theory. They believe that prior to this present earth, there was a "previous" earth for millions of years, until Adam came to clean up all the "chaos".

http://www.mormonwiki.com/Creation

One idea that reconciles Christian belief with the fossil record is that it took millions of years to prepare the earth for modern animal and human life. The organisms that lived during these ancient times all had a purpose, not only to live out their own lives and to fill the measure of their creation, but to change the very atmosphere, land, and seas of the earth. There were a series of great destructions wherein ancient life forms were destroyed, but the effects of their existence have made possible our own survival on the planet. In Doctrine and Covenants, Section 77, verse 12, it says --

Quote
We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming."


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 28, 2015, 12:12:13 am
Looks like David J. Stewart(Jesus is Saviour web site) believes in the gap theory - he's very crafty in how he pushes it - he starts out saying he doesn't believe it, but in his long articles he will SLOWLY build up his case supporting it little by little. So by end, he ends up catching you napping.

Not surprising, b/c he's an Easy Believism believer who uses this Satanic "Lordship Salvation" strawman argument.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 30, 2015, 11:31:38 am
FWIW, a brethren on YT showed me this today - a former brethren's pretty much attacked me on his G+ account b/c I didn't believe in the gap theory(I made my initial comments, which he posted in quotes, on a recent Denlinger video).

Pt being that you see how this damnable heresy is sowing seeds of discord among the brethren. Personally, I don't care that he attacked me, but at the same time it's sad to see fellow KJB believers attacking their fellow KJB believers over this issue. If it was, let's say, someone attending Rick Warren's Saddleback Church attacking others over this, I wouldn't care on the contrary.

Quote
I just got a good laugh out of this joker..."gap theory" is a "damnable heresy"...what a crock! Notice here how he says he would not break fellowship over with someone who holds to this DAMNABLE HERESY. What would a Bible believer be doing with someone preaching a damnable heresy? Morgan is another fool who speaks evil of those things which he WON'T understand.

"Also, that guy you exposed(edward) has really been pushing another damnable heresy over the last year - the gap theory(which compromises evolution with the bible). He's used this heretical doctrine to sow further seeds of discord among the brethren. We saw Greg Miller do the same thing last year as well. FWIW, the gap theory is not something I would break fellowship over with, but again - edward and Miller have really been pushing it for over a year now, like it's some important salvation doctrine(and have caused a lot of division among the brethren, as well as confusion with other important doctrines)." - Morgan Hester

No, "Morgan Hester" is not my real name, it was my former YT channel name(I changed it to RomansTenSeventeen afterwards).


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 01, 2015, 04:27:39 pm
Well he is still of the angelic class. He was created and lived outside of creation in Heaven before the creation of our creation.

Well ponder this...

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God said it was very good. How could it be good if satan was there in iniquity? You could make the claim he wasn't there inside of creation but outside of it. But remember that he still comes and goes and speaks with God in the first chapter of Job.

Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

something to ponder there...  ???

Not much to ponder in my opinion. The issue you raise is a point in favor of a gap view. Everything God made in the six day creation was good per Gen 1:31. Satan was created prior and the verse is not talking about him. Satan did not become active in the new creation until after the fall of man.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 01, 2015, 06:02:55 pm
Not much to ponder in my opinion. The issue you raise is a point in favor of a gap view. Everything God made in the six day creation was good per Gen 1:31. Satan was created prior and the verse is not talking about him. Satan did not become active in the new creation until after the fall of man.

Are you saying there was some "previous" earth prior to Genesis 1:2 with some pre-Adamite race?

No, there's no gap - bottom line - God created the earth in 6 days. There was NO "Lucifer's flood" of Genesis 1:2 - if there was, then the earth would not have been covered completely with water, why? B/c floods(not just the global flood) create sedimentary rock layer formations et al.

And Adam was the first man, and death didn't happen until he(and Eve) fell into sin. Otherwise, if there was a gap, death would be came BEFORE sin(and contradicts Romans 5:12-14).

Genesis 3:17  And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18  Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 01, 2015, 06:05:54 pm
This passage confirms that Satan wasn't found in iniquity until the Garden of Eden.

Ezekiel 28:13  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17  Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.





Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 01, 2015, 06:18:00 pm
Genesis 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Also, in the Hebrew language - anytime they have a conjunction(ie-and, but, etc), the verb tense following them CAN'T be in the context where an action followed it/resulted after it.

I know I'm not explaining myself well - but this is why you don't see the words like "became" here(which gap theory proponents try to interpret).

So no, NOTHING happened whatsoever prior to Genesis 1:2. There was no "Lucifer's flood", or whatever event.

And look at this passage...

Job 38:4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


The foundations of the earth was laid when the LORD created the dry land(I believe on the 3rd day). And look at verse 7 - ALL the sons of God(angels) shouted for joy. So from this passage, it's obvious iniquity wasn't found in Satan during the 6 day creation.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 01, 2015, 11:28:52 pm
Genesis 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Also, in the Hebrew language - anytime they have a conjunction(ie-and, but, etc), the verb tense following them CAN'T be in the context where an action followed it/resulted after it.

I know I'm not explaining myself well - but this is why you don't see the words like "became" here(which gap theory proponents try to interpret).

So no, NOTHING happened whatsoever prior to Genesis 1:2. There was no "Lucifer's flood", or whatever event.

And look at this passage...

Job 38:4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


The foundations of the earth was laid when the LORD created the dry land(I believe on the 3rd day). And look at verse 7 - ALL the sons of God(angels) shouted for joy. So from this passage, it's obvious iniquity wasn't found in Satan during the 6 day creation.


I don`t read Hebrew so trying to convince me of something based on your interpretation of Hebrew accomplishes nothing. Among Messianic believers, who are often fluent in Hebrew, a time gap is considered a valid theory by many of them.

http://www.royschwarcz.org/2013/01/31/genesis-1/



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 01, 2015, 11:39:24 pm
This passage confirms that Satan wasn't found in iniquity until the Garden of Eden.

Ezekiel 28:13  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17  Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.



It might confirm it to you and in my opinion many of your views are biased because they have been formed by your religion. The verse says that Satan was in the garden and also says that he was in other places as well. It does not say when he fell or where he was when it happened.

Jesus said Satan was a liar and a murderer from the very beginning so his perfection has to be put into some context. It`s not a guarantee that the two names even refer to the same angel.





Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 02, 2015, 10:01:35 am
I don`t read Hebrew so trying to convince me of something based on your interpretation of Hebrew accomplishes nothing. Among Messianic believers, who are often fluent in Hebrew, a time gap is considered a valid theory by many of them.

http://www.royschwarcz.org/2013/01/31/genesis-1/



Uhm, no - among all Jewish(both conservative and liberal scholars), NONE of them believe in a time "gap" - they all believe in a literal 6 day creation.

The whole gap theory got started when James Hutton brought in the idea that the earth is billions of years old, and then Thomas Chalmers(a liberal bible scholar and a Freemason) brought the time "gap" - churches bought into it hook, line, and sinker, which is why they stood down when Darwin's theory of evolution came into play.

Please go through this thread - you will find articles and videos where the whole gap theory is debunked through and through.

John 5:46  For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47  But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


Moses said NOTHING about any time "gap".


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 02, 2015, 01:19:05 pm
Uhm, no - among all Jewish(both conservative and liberal scholars), NONE of them believe in a time "gap" - they all believe in a literal 6 day creation.

The whole gap theory got started when James Hutton brought in the idea that the earth is billions of years old, and then Thomas Chalmers(a liberal bible scholar and a Freemason) brought the time "gap" - churches bought into it hook, line, and sinker, which is why they stood down when Darwin's theory of evolution came into play.

Please go through this thread - you will find articles and videos where the whole gap theory is debunked through and through.

John 5:46  For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47  But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


Moses said NOTHING about any time "gap".

I don`t have the spare time to critique your articles and videos. I would possibly review one article which would be more then sufficient to cover the handful of verses that pertain to a gap theory. I prefer to discuss the Bible and your personal views. It`s not very interesting to discuss someone else`s work when I can`t converse with them.

On the Jewish scholar comment, Jewish scholars are hewn off, they are some of the most mixed up people there is. I dunno what they think because I would not waste the precious time to research them. What I said is that gap theory is accepted as valid by many Messianic Jews who are for the most part fluent in Hebrew. I also furnished a link as both a reference to it and a rebuttal to your assertion about the Hebrew language.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 02, 2015, 02:01:41 pm
Ultimately, I don't care what man thinks - the BIBLE, the WORD OF GOD says it took 6 literal, 24 hour days for the LORD to create the earth. No gaps, no bumps, 6 STRAIGHT literal days.

Exodus 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This was part of the 10 commandments to boot.

End of discussion!


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 02, 2015, 02:59:04 pm
Ultimately, I don't care what man thinks - the BIBLE, the WORD OF GOD says it took 6 literal, 24 hour days for the LORD to create the earth. No gaps, no bumps, 6 STRAIGHT literal days.

Exodus 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This was part of the 10 commandments to boot.

End of discussion!


The word day can mean one of several things in scripture. It can mean a 24 hour day. I don`t see how that would be possible before the sun was made but indeed it can mean that. A day can also refer to an age or a dispensation, both of those words have more or less the same meaning. In Bible prophecy a day can symbolize a year. A day can also mean 1000 years if it is a day by Gods time. God`s time and earth time are not the same. Probably can`t do earth time until the earth has been made. A literal 6 day creation works better as gap theory then it does for you  ;D


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on October 03, 2015, 04:37:27 am
The word day can mean one of several things in scripture. It can mean a 24 hour day. I don`t see how that would be possible before the sun was made but indeed it can mean that. A day can also refer to an age or a dispensation, both of those words have more or less the same meaning. In Bible prophecy a day can symbolize a year. A day can also mean 1000 years if it is a day by Gods time. God`s time and earth time are not the same. Probably can`t do earth time until the earth has been made. A literal 6 day creation works better as gap theory then it does for you  ;D

Actually the word day cannot mean more than one thing once it is used in the grammatical setting it is placed in. Day in the Genesis account is 1 literal 24 hour period. This is further backed up by Exo 20:11 which was written by the Lords very finger. Unless you want to discard what he wrote himself...

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Gap theory is a way for Satan to undermine the Bible by using evolution and science so called. Look at how they actually date things scientifically and you will easily see the ruse that they are using. NO Gap or God is a liar.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 03, 2015, 05:26:16 am
( Normally I wouldn`t post something written by somebody else but this article isn`t very long and presents a point of view consistent with mine.)



CREATION / GAP THEORY

by Pastor Steve Frederick and Pastor Harold Head

       Creationism Science believes that the heavens and the earth were created originally in six twenty four days and that there is no gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  Creationism Science says that the earth is relatively young, being only 6,000 to 10,000 years old, and that Lucifer rebelled and fell sometime after the six days of creation and before his appearance to Adam and Eve in the Garden. They claim Lucifer's fall could not have occurred before or during the six days of Creation because God said everything was GOOD when He rested on the 7th day.
 
They claim that Adam and the original creation of the earth were both in that original creation week, because Jesus said in Matthew 19 that man and woman were created 'in the beginning'. They would say the ICE AGE science speaks of occurred for a few hundred years after Noah's worldwide flood, and was caused directly by the flood itself, and  this ice age left only a livable area near the equator and Bible lands during this time.  They would say Dinosaurs and mammoths, even the frozen ones, existed during the Noah's day, and since Adam brought death into the world, no life existed and died on a Pre-Adamic earth.
 
When God used different words such as create, make, and form in Genesis one, these words were used in an interchangeable way, and all meant basically the same thing.  When God told Adam to replenish the earth, it did not mean to 'refill' but simply meant to fill, because before 1650 'replenish' meant 'to fill', and only after 1650 did it take on the meaning of 're-fill'.  Creationism Science says that the fossil record was put in the earth by the flood in Noah's Day and the Grand Canyon was caused by the ICE AGE which resulted after the flood.  Many good Godly men believe the Bible teaches Creationism Science, and it is certainly the most popular interpretation held in Christian circles today.
 
 
"GAP THEORY"
 
 Another Theory, known as the 'Gap Theory' is held by many good and Godly Men of the past. While there have been several variations of the Gap Theory over the years, I will present the most commonly held aspects of this theory today. Proponents of this view believe many of the points of Creationism Science, but differ in that they believe there was a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 in which Lucifer reigned over this Pre-Adamic earth with a host of angels and that his rebellion and fall occurred and God Judged this sin resulting in a chaotic and ruined earth in Genesis 1:2.
 
Gap Theorists believe what we see in rest of Genesis 1:3-31 is 'reconstruction' or re-creation of earth to make it livable for man.
 
(Donald Grey Barnhouse, The Invisible War, page 21-26)
 
Genesis 1:1-2 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
 
After many years of careful study, I tend to believe aspects of both of these views are the correct one.  We must be careful to note there are many "Gap Theories" out there, and we must not lump them all together.  Many 'Gap Theory' teachings are not correct, but I believe some the teachings do line up with the Creationism Science.
 
In summary, I believe Satan did fall between verses 1 and 2, and was over a civilization of angels on a Pre-Adamite earth which was created in verse one.  We don't know how much time transpired between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 while Lucifer was on this earth, but it need not be a very long period of time at all, certainly not the billions of years evolutionists tell us about!  I believe the 6 days of Genesis 1:3 thru 1:28 are indeed six 24-hour days of RE-creation.  We see 'Create' (out of nothing) used only 3 times in this chapter, and other times the words 'made' and 'formed' are used, meaning already existing materials are used.
 
Now to me, this is a hard argument to overcome.  Why is 'Create' only used 3 times, and all the other things already existed but are just 'made to appear'?  I believe all the animals and dinosaurs lived with Adam on the Pre-flood earth and that Adam is only around 6000 years old.  Many Aspects of an 'ICE-AGE' science talks about, I believe, were the result of the World Wide flood of Noah's Day.  Carbon-Dating that shows dinosaurs and animals living millions of years ago is about as reliable as a 3-dollar bill.  Carbon Dating has recently showed freshly killed animals to be thousands or millions of years old!
 
Below we will look at aspects of the Gap Theory and show which ones actually fit with Creationism Science, thus giving us the correct Biblical View of Creation, I believe.
 
Proponents of this 'RECONSTRUCTION' view or GAP THEORY believe that the heavens and the earth were created in Genesis 1:1 at some undisclosed time in the past, and that Lucifer was put in charge of the earth along with a host of his angels.  Due to Lucifer’s rebellion as described in Isaiah 14:12-17 and Ezekiel 28:12-17, God brought Judgment upon the earth and the universe where it became waste and desolate as described in Genesis 1:2.
 
 Isaiah 14:12-17  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15  Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16  They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17  That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
 
Ezekiel 28:12-17 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.13  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.14  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.15
 
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.16  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.17  Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
 
 
Was Lucifer on a Pre-Adamic Earth?
 
Notice from these two passages we see they seem to teach Lucifer was ON THE EARTH when he rebelled.  God evidently placed him on earth to rule it and an angelic civilization.
 
"That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?" (Isaiah 14:17)
 
M.R. Dehaan believes Lucifer was placed over an Angelic civilization on this pre-adamic earth complete with 'cities' of angels in this angelic civilization with lush vegetation.
(M.R. Dehaan, GENESIS & EVOLUTION, p26-28)
 
 Notice Ezekiel 28:13-17 says Lucifer 'was' in the garden of Eden' BEFORE iniquity was found in him. Wouldn't this teach that he was in the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve,  possibly on a Pre-Adamic earth?
"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God..... from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
 
Some would argue that the Garden of Eden didn't exist until Genesis 2:8 when it says,
"And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed."
 
Well, wait a minute....Here it says that God planted a Garden in Eden....
 
That doesn't mean there could not have been a garden in Eden on the Pre-adamic earth too....Remember, if this 'Reconstruction' or 'RE-CREATION' view is correct, God 're-creates' and 'makes to appear again' several things....in these first chapters of Genesis....
 
 Isaiah 14:12 says that Lucifer declared he would 'ascend above the clouds' in his rebellion to be like God. This would imply he was on the earth BELOW THE CLOUDS would it not?
 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 
What Caused Chaos in Genesis 1:2?
 
If this is so, Lucifer's rebellion could have brought God's Judgment upon Lucifer and the Pre-Adamic earth and Universe!
J.Vernon McGee describes the moon’s surface as a good example of this judgment from God in Genesis 1:2.
 
(From J.Vernon McGee, THRU THE BIBLE, vol 1 Gen-Deut, p13)
 
 The Bible seems to teach in Isaiah 45:18 that God didn’t create the earth in this state originally, and that something happened later to cause the chaotic state.
 
(See H.A.Ironside, DR. IRONSIDE'S BIBLE, p25)
 
 Could the whole universe, including the earth, have looked like the moon and other planets in our solar system, when God brought judgment upon the original earth?
 
 (See Arthur Pink, GLEANINGS IN GENESIS, p10)
 
Isaiah 45:18 "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else."
Gap theorists deduce that if God didn't create the earth in this shape, in vain and without form, something must have happened to cause it to become that way in Genesis 1:2!  It must have been due to Lucifer's fall!
 
(From Donald Grey Barnhouse, GENESIS, P10)
(W.A.Criswell, Great Doctrines of Bible, vol 7, Angelology, p89)
 
 
Are Demons these Fallen Angels?
 
Are these angels who rebelled with Lucifer on the Pre-Adamic earth now the disembodied spirits we know as 'DEMONS' today?  Many good Bible teachers believe so.
 
(See Curtis Hutson, DEMONOLOGY OUTLINES, p3A)
(See Lehmann Strauss, DEMONS, YES, BUT THANK GOD FOR GOOD ANGELS, p9)
 
Some who hold to a 'Gap Theory', such as Clarence Larkin, that these disembodied spirits of demons today were from the race of "Pre-Adamic Men"....I just don't believe there were men on earth before Adam, because the Bible does say Adam was the FIRST man....I believe, like M.R. Dehaan, that Angels were on the earth with Lucifer in the 'Gap' between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
 
This brings us to an important note.  Just because one believes there could have been a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, that doesn't mean that ALL of the teachings of all Gap Theorists are correct.  I believe this is were opponents of the Gap Theory have erred.  In their writings I have studied, opponents take the wildest speculations of Gap Theorists and lump them all together as 'THE GAP THEORY' and use these to ridicule all aspects of the Gap Theory to show how ridiculous it is.
 
 
AN ICE AGE?
 
If this GAP THEORY be true, than the “ICE AGE” science talks about could have been the result of this “judgment” in Genesis 1:2. Science says there was a catastrophic Ice Age on earth in the past. The Gap Theorists would also say it is possible for the 'ICE AGE' to have occurred after the FLOOD in Noah's Day as Creation Science claims, whereby the Northern and Southern parts of the continents experienced the "ICE AGE" due to the result of the world wide flood, yet area near the equator and Bible lands was still livable for Noah's ancestors.
 
The Gap Theory allows for the ICE AGE to have happened at either of these times. If there were animals on this pre-Adamic earth, could this ICE-AGE be the result of God's Judgment upon Lucifer and the earth due to Lucifer's rebellion as described in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14?  Could that Ice Age have instantaneously killed the animals on the Pre-Adamic earth that Lucifer ruled?  Scientists have found a huge mammoth frozen to death with undigested food in stomach eaten ½ hours earlier frozen in ice. 
 
Could this ICE AGE have done that? The Gap Theory would allow the possibility of animals on this Pre-Adamic earth with Lucifer and the Angelic 'civilization', or it would allow that no animals were on the Pre-Adamic earth, just Lucifer and the angels. I personally tend to believe the frozen mammoth walked on the earth during the days of Noah, and the ICE AGE after the flood caused huge glaciers to slide down from the North and suddenly catch a mammoth off guard and entomb it in its icy grave, thoroughly preserving it.  Dr. Hovind has a very interesting theory that an asteroid or meteor hit the earth to cause this extreme temperature that would freeze a mammoth so quickly.
 
His theory makes sense to me. I'm told many such frozen mammoths are found in Alaska and Russia and the meat is so preserved it is served as Mammoth burgers today!  No kidding.  It is certainly possible that the mammoth and Dinosaurs existed only on the re-created earth with Adam and Eve until the flood too, or they could have existed BOTH on the Pre-Adamic Earth with Lucifer AND on the Re-created earth with Adam and Eve. Either possibility fits the Gap Theory. Footprints of humans have been found along side fossils of dinosaurs, showing that dinosaurs lived since Adam's creation, but many species still exist in parts of the world today!
 
 
'WITHOUT FORM AND VOID'
 
Gap Theorists would say that this phrase found in Genesis 1:2 ‘without form and void’ (TOHU WA BOHU) is found in 3 other instances in the Bible (Isa.34;11; 45:18; Jeremiah.4:23) and it always refers an act of Divine Judgment from God. They would also add that Hebrew wording “the earth WAS without form and void” COULD be read to mean SOMETHING caused this judgment upon the earth, as to read ‘it became that way’.
 
(See James M.Gray, CHRISTIAN WORKERS' COMMENTARY, P11)
 
 This same Hebrew word is translated as such in Genesis 19:26 where it says “Lot’s wife BECAME a pillar of salt”.
 
(From E.Schuyler English, PILGRIM STUDY BIBLE, p1 footnotes)
 
We're not 'Changing' the words of the Bible when we make this distinction!
 
Now Bible-Believing Christians would protest that one is trying to 'Change' the Words of the King James Bible, just like the New Translations do.....

Now wait just a minute.  That is not what we're doing at all.  The word 'was' can also mean 'became' just like it does today...If I say my wife was angry....it would probably be correct to say she BECAME angry because of something that happened earlier!  Correct?  To say one is 'adding to the Word of God' by doing this is just not correct.
 
 
RESTORATION OR RE-CREATION OF EARTH?
 
When we come to Genesis 1:3-31 we see the ‘RE-CREATION’ or “RESTORATION” of the earth in 6 literal 24-hour days and it is here we have the creation of Adam.
 
(See William R. Newell, STUDIES IN THE PENTATEUCH, p34)
(See Erich Sauer, THE DAWN OF WORLD REDEMPTION, p35)
 
The Six Days in this first chapter of Genesis, according to Gap Theorists, do not describe the original creation earth, but a 'reconstruction' with a view to it becoming the habitation of man.
 
(See J. Sidlow Baxter, EXPLORE THE BOOK, p35)
(See Charles Baker, A DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY, p168)
 
 This ‘re-creation’ in Genesis 1:3-31 occurred about 6000 years ago or so, but we don’t know when the heavens and earth were ORIGINALLY created in Genesis 1:1. If this 'gap' between v1 and v2 is correct, there could have been an unknown amount of years between the original creation and this 're-creation' or restoration in Genesis 1:3-31. It could have been millions of years OR just a short amount of time from Lucifer's creation along with the other angels and the fall of Lucifer.
 
(From G. Campbell Morgan [by Jill Morgan], THIS WAS HIS FAITH, p39)
 
Opponents would say Gap Theorists are just trying to appease Science and Evolutionists which say the earth is billions of years old.  That is just not true.  If the Gap Theory is true, and there is a gap between Gen. 1:1 & 2, then we just don't know how much times transpired between these verses....and neither does anyone else.
 
 
"REPLENISH THE EARTH"
 
 This theory believes this is why God told Adam in Genesis 1:28 to “REPLENISH” the earth. There had to be something on the earth BEFORE in order for Adam and Eve to 'replenish' it, the Gap Theorists would say.
 
Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:
 
The same word 'replenish' is used in Genesis 9:1  AFTER THE FLOOD when God tells NOAH to 'REPLENISH' the earth.
 
Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
 
Now opponents would argue, and I believe correctly so, that 'REPLENISH' originally mean 'to fill' and only changed in meaning to 'refill' in the later 1600's.....just like many words have changed meanings today.  I used to remember when 'cool' meant not not, and 'gay' meant to be happy...These words have changed today.  Replenish seems to be an example of that too.  Another Hebrew word meaning to 'fill again' could have been used, but it was not.  I believe the opponents of the Gap Theory are correct here.
 
A look at the Strong's Concordance does seem to indicate 'REPLENISH' originally meant 'to fill', but this fact actually is mute and does not prove or disprove either the Gap Theory or Creationism Science.  In both cases, with Adam and with Noah, it means to FILL the earth.  But please notice, With Noah it certainly did mean to fill the earth AGAIN.  Would you agree?  'Replenish' the earth COULD be used to support the Gap Theory as well.
 
So from this passage we see REPLENISH certainly can mean to 'refill' in the Bible.
 

WHY ONLY 3 CREATIVE ACTS IN GENESIS CHAPTER ONE?
 
I personally believe this is one of the strongest arguments the opponents of the Gap Theory have to deal with.  The fact that the word for CREATE is used only 3 times is Genesis 1 is one of the strongest arguments for the GAP THEORY and its belief that Genesis 1 desribes the 'Re-Creation' of the earth in 6 days!
 
This Gap theory would explain why ONLY 3 creative acts are found in Genesis chapter 1:
 
1. In verse 1 we see the word ‘bara’  (create out of nothing) used when the heavens and the earth were originally created.
 
2. It is again used in Gen. 1:21 in the creation of fowl and fish.
 
3. It is used again in Genesis 1:24-25 when referring to creation of animal and man.  This word 'BARA' is not used in the other days where the sun, moon, stars were ‘made to appear’ on day 4.  They already existed, having been originally created in Genesis 1:1 before Lucifer’s judgment in Gen. 1:2.
 
(from Arno C. Gaebelein, THE ANNOTATED BIBLE, P16,17)
 
As Merrill Unger notes,  this is NOT the original creation of light in day 4, but it is 'made to appear' or 'become visible' on day 4.
He notes the original perfect condition had been ruined by the sin of the earth's former angelic inhabitants.
 
(See Merrill Unger, UNGER'S COMMENTARY ON THE OLD TESTAMENT, VOL 1,  p6)
 
Opponents to the Gap Theory would argue that the different words for 'create' and 'make' and 'form' are used interchangeably in the first chapter of Genesis and in Isaiah: 43:7 as an example:
Isa.43:7  "Even every one that is called by my name: for I have CREATED him for my glory, I have FORMED him; yea, I have MADE him."

Here we see all 3 Hebrew words used in the making of man, and opponents of the Gap theory would say here we see all 3 words used interchangeably.
 
Gap Theorists would say, "Not So!" These 3 words have different meanings and all are correctly used in formation of man.  Man's body was indeed MADE (ASAH) out of pre-existing materials (dust), but the LIFE PRINCIPLE itself, as in animal life, can only be 'CREATED' (BARA) by God. God Also 'FORMED' (YATSA) man, that is, shaped and fashioned man's body,as a potter does the clay.
 
(Above from John Phillips, EXPLORING GENESIS,p38)
 
In Conclusion, it would seem to be a pretty strong argument for opponents of the Gap Theory to answer.
 
Why are only 3 'creative' acts found in the first chapter of Genesis IF these are six days of 'ORIGINAL CREATION'????
 
Having already looked at some arguments used against the Gap Theory, such as the proper meaning of the word REPLENISH;  the INTERCHANGEABLE use of the words CREATE, MADE, AND FORM; let's now look at.....
 
 
 Some MORE arguments used against the Gap Theory:
 
 
JESUS SAYS HE MADE ADAM AND EVE IN THE BEGINNING
 
 Jesus said in Matthew 19:4 “..He which made them in the beginning, made them male and female…”  Some would say this proves there was no gap between Gen.1:1 and 1:2 because Jesus is saying he made Adam and Eve IN THE BEGINNING when he created (bara) heaven and earth.
 
Good Point.  But could it be that there are different 'beginnings' in the Bible?  Could it be that Jesus was referring to the 'beginning' of this new re-created earth with Adam on it...when he 're-made' the heavens and the earth?
 
We have several beginnings in the Bible.  We have the beginning the LAW with Moses.  We have the beginning of the Church Age in the book of Acts.  Anyone studying the English Language and its use must admit that there can be different 'beginnings' of different things at different times.  Ah, but opponents would say this says, 'The' Beginning... Well, yes it does, but does that prohibit if from meaning 'the' beginning of this new re-created earth?  I don't think so.
 
Gap Theorists would reply:  This ‘beginning’ Jesus is talking about here in Matthew refers to the ‘beginning’ of man on earth with Adam and Eve, not necessarily the beginning of heaven and earth in their original creation as in Gen. 1:1.
 
Moses also said in Exodus 20:13 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:
 
Gap theorists would reply:  Again, here the Lord is talking about the 'reconstruction' or 'making' of heaven and earth, NOT the original creation in Genesis 1:1.
 
Why Was Lucifer in the Garden of Eden?
 
Gap Theorists would say their theory explains WHY Lucifer had access to the Garden of Eden in the first place to tempt Adam and Eve, otherwise WHY would Lucifer be there anyway?
 
(See James Montgomery Boice, GENESIS, Vol 1, p53)
 
 He was originally ruler over this earth and dwelt in Eden according to Ezekiel 28:12,13:
 
 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.13 Thou HAST BEEN IN EDEN the garden of God;"
 
Lucifer is called the 'prince of this world' and the 'god of this Age.  He seems to have been given some authority over the earth at sometime.
 
(How that Lucifer could be Prince of this world and god of this age while Adam was given dominion is looked at in detail further below)
 
 
Death Came by Adam
 
  In 1 Corinthians 15:21 Scripture says that “for since by MAN (Adam) came death, by man (Jesus) came also the resurrection of the dead”.  Some would say there couldn’t have been death of animals on a Pre-Adamic earth on which Lucifer reigned because this verse says death came BY ADAM. 
 
 Romans 5:12 also implies the same thing, that death didn't come until Adam came.
" Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
 
1 Corinthians 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 
Gap Theorists reply:  In context, these passages of Scripture are referring to why death came to mankind…because of Adam’s sin.  It doesn’t necessarily say animals, etc. from a Pre-Adamic earth couldn’t have died from an ‘Ice age’ type judgment from God due to Lucifer’s rebellion as he was over this earth and an angelic civilization. (Rev.12:4 and Isa.14:17)
 
This passage in 1 Corinthians is talking about 'death' coming to 'mankind' because of Adam's sin.
 
But then again, The Gap Theory doesn't insist animals must have lived and died on a Pre-Adamic earth.  It may have just been Lucifer and angels, which of course, as angels, would never die. Some proponents of the Gap Theory, such as Clarence Larkin and Kenneth Wuest, say that Lucifer was over a Pre-Adamic 'man' or 'humanoid' race that existed on the Pre-Adamic earth, and the the demons today are the disembodied spirits of this race. While that is a possibility, I just don't see that. 1 Corinthians 15:45 declares that Adam was the first man.
 
(From Clarence Larkin, Dispensational Truth, p24)
(From Kenneth Wuest, Prophetic Light in Present Darkness, p66)
 
It seems best to agree with the earlier assessment that demons today are the disembodied spirits of the angels who who were on the original earth with Lucifer.
 
(From M.R. Dehaan, THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS, p6-8)
 
 
The Bible says God's Creation was GOOD,  so Lucifer could not have fallen yet...
 
In Genesis 1:31 we read that God looked at His creation and declared it was 'GOOD'. Opponents of the Gap Theory say God couldn't have said that if Lucifer's sin and fall caused judgment upon the earth earlier.
 
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
 
Gap Theorist's reply:  When God said 'it was very good' He was referring to the 're-created earth' and IT was good.
Just because Lucifer sinned earlier, that doesn't mean God can't make something 'good' now!
 
A Good counterpoint the Gap Theorists make is that in these six days of re-creation, He said it was 'good' after each day EXCEPT on day 2 when he separated the firmament and made the atmosphere!  The reason is because this became Satan's domain after his fall and judgment!
 
Ephesians 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 6:12   For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

This would seem to imply Lucifer had already fallen and was now in his domain in this atmosphere at that time of Day 2, would it not?
 
This is a good argument I have yet to hear opponents of the Gap Theory to answer.  "Why did God not say it was 'good' after day 2?
 
 
Do the Fossils disprove the Gap Theory?
 
Six-Day Creationists say the FOSSIL RECORD declares all of the fossils were laid as they are found as a result of Noah's Flood, not because of a Pre-Adamic earth.
 
Gap Theorists reply:  Fine.  All of the fossils today could be the result of Noah's worldwide Flood..  The 'Gap Theory' doesn't INSIST animals and fossils HAD TO EXIST ON THE PRE-ADAMIC EARTH.  In fact, I do believe the flood gave us the fossils we have today.
 
 
The Earth is young, not billions of years old
 
Six-Day Creationists believe Scientist attests to a YOUNG EARTH of only 6000 to 12,000 years old, not millions of years.
 
Gap Theorists reply:  This very well could be true.  The Gap Theory only says there must have been some time between Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2 for Lucifer's rebellion. That's all we're saying. That could have happened in a very short period of time from his creation.  It could have been only few months or years, or a much longer period.  The Gap Theory doesn't insist on an earth millions of years old.  Dinosaurs, for example, could have existed in Noah's Day, and on a Pre-Adamic earth, too.  The Gap Theory allows for either.  I tend to personally believe they lived during Noah's Day and after the flood many soon became extinct, but many still exist today, especially in the oceans!  Many have been discovered in the past 100 years, but evolutionists have done a good job of not letting it be advertised very much...because they feel that would harm their precious EVOLUTION THEORY...
 
 
The Gap Theory is held to accommodate the evolutionist's view of a EARTH billions of years old and Its Geological Strata
 
Six-Day Creationists claim Gap Theorists hold to their view to appease evolutionists who say dinosaurs and the earth and Geologic strata are millions of years old.
 
Gap Theorists reply:  Not so.  Perhaps some of the earlier proponents of the view such Thomas Chalmers in the late 1800's and Scofield in the early 1900's thought their theory would allow for the long period of time that Science seemed to teach in that day, but that wasn't their primary reason to holding to the Gap Theory.  Just like Gap Theorists today, They just Believed it best lines up with Scripture and Science.
 
I Believe the whole GEOLOGIC COLUMN and STRATA as taught in many Science Books is a BIG HOAX!
 
 
DOESN'T CARBON DATING TEACH THAT THE EARTH IS MILLIONS Of YEARS OLD?
 
No.  Carbon Dating is a bunch of bologna. It has been proven to an unreliable as a 3 dollar bill.  Carbon Dating has been done on freshly killed animals has shown them to be millions of years old!
 
Another argument I have heard against the Gap Theory is...
 
WAS SATAN ALREADY THE 'GOD OF THIS WORLD' (2 Corinthians 4:4) WHEN GOD GAVE ADAM DOMINION (GENESIS 1:26-28) OVER THE EARTH?
 
2nd Corinthians 4:4 says, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Genesis 1:28-30 says, "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."
 
Now look very closely at these verses and what they are saying and what they are not saying....
 
It says Adam was to have 'dominion' over the animals, fish, and birds....it never says to have 'dominion' over the earth....
Adam is to 'subdue' the earth....but it does not say have 'dominion' over the earth...
 
Now if I wanted to be unkind, I could reply, "Who is 'adding' to the Word of God now?"    This is a charge often leveled at 'Gap Theorists.
 
 
The 'Gap Theory' is only of RECENT ORIGIN
 
Opponents of the Gap Theory say it is only a recent theory in the past couple of hundred years and was not held by the early church.
Answer:  This is just not true either.  As James Montgomery Boice notes, "Arthur C. Custance, who has written an excellent book in the theory's defense, traces it to the certain early Jewish writers,...who even put a 'rebhia' mark in the Masoretic text of the Old Testament to let the reader know there is a break in the narrative between v1 and v 2..
 
....some of the church fathers REFER to the Gap Theory and even referred to in some ancient Sumerian and Babylonian documents, according to Boice, a very scholarly and reliable writer and Bible Teacher.  He adds that It crops up in the middle ages as well.  It was in Scotland at the beginning of the last century, through the work of the capable pastor and writer Thomas Chalmers, that the idea gained real coherence and visibility....The single most effective teacher of this view was C.I. Scofield, who included it in his notes on Genesis in the astonishingly popular Scofield Reference Bible.  From there it became the almost unquestioned view of Fundamentalism..."
 
(See James Montgomery Boice, GENESIS, Vol. 1, p50,51)
 
To say that the Gap Theory was invented in 1814 is just not true.  That is just an incorrect statement.
 
 
Gap Theorists are ADDING to the Word of God!
 
Opponents of the Gap Theory claim that because the good men listed above in the annotations who hold to forms of a 'Gap Theory' and believe there could have been a 'GAP' of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2....that they are 'adding to the Word of God'!!
....a serious charge that will result is dire consequences to that Believer when we get to heaven!
 
Revelation 22:18,19  "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
 
Pretty serious charges against good men of God who simply have a different interpretation of a verse in Genesis, are they not?
Are you telling me that because men like M.R. Dehaan and the others mentioned above are 'adding to the Word of God' simply because they believe Lucifer could have fallen between Gen. 1:1,2!
 
One opponent of the Gap Theory actually mocks anyone who would offer the Gap Theory as at least a possibility to at least consider with a cartoon in which a student says,
 
"Professor, Why Can't I Just Believe The Bible?"
 
(From Ken Ham's CLOSING THE GAP, p1 from www.icr.org )
 
Another well-respected opponent of the Gap Theory argues,
 
 
DOES EVERYONE WHO READS THE BIBLE NEED SOME 'GURU' TO TELL THEM WHAT THE BIBLE SAY?
 
Well, to be truthful, I really don't understand that statement.  To imply that the good men above can not simply 'take the Bible' for what it says and must have a 'GURU' to explain it to them....it just not a fair....or a kind statement.   To imply that these men above needed a 'GURU' to come their well-studied conclusion....is unfortunate.
 
I believe this attitude is actually doing  more discredit to those who oppose the Gap Theory than they realize.  To imply those who hold to a 'gap' between Gen.1:1,2 are not Bible believers is ludicrous.
 
 
THE GAP THEORY DESTROYS THE WORK OF THE CROSS
 
This opponent of the Gap Theory even goes on to say " ..the gap theory actually destroys the foundation work of the cross..." (p2, Closing the Gap)  Unbelievable.
 
Remember The Gap Theory does not insist on a race of people on a Pre-Adamic earth who died..
.
YOU SEE, see here is an example where an opponent of the Gap Theory, takes a rare suggestion of Larkin and Wuest that a race of men might have lived on a Pre-Adam earth, and they use this to discredit the whole theory!
 
 
GAP THEORISTS ARE JUST TOO PROUD TO ADMIT THEY ARE WRONG
 
A good man told me he knew preachers who were just too proud to admit the Gap Theory was wrong because they hate to admit they had been wrong.
 
Well that is probably true of preachers in a lot of cases.  But I can honestly say in my case, if someone could convince that the GAP THEORY (as presented in this paper) is wrong and not Scriptural, I would change my view right now.  The fact is, I have looked at every argument against it.  I have used my power of deduction and reasoning from my days at Purdue University, and I, for one, just have found holes in every argument used by the opponents of the Gap Theory.  I have been surprised by the arrogance of some of the folks who disagree with me.  I have seen them almost get mad when I present this paper to them.  I think that is sad.  Good people can disagree and you don't have to slander and belittle them and accuse them of not being 'Bible Believers'!
 
Good people are on both sides of this controversial issue, and Christians can disagree on this matter, but to make it a matter of fellowship or even slanderous accusation is sad, and we need to be careful to refrain from that.  Both sides agree that God was the one Creating and we did not evolve from some amoeba after a BIG BANG sometime in the distant past!  Both of these views agree the Theory of Organic Evolution as taught in Public Schools is WRONG!  BOTH of these views would say that 'Theistic Evolution' is also wrong.  One side simply believes Lucifer could have fallen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, and the other does not.  The Bible says we ought to be ready to give an answer to every man....and anyone who can show where we are looking at this wrong, we would certainly be willing to listen to what you have to present.
 
 
In Conclusion
 
The 'Gap Theory' as described above is the most logical interpretation according to the Bible. We do not take this position just to 'fit' science, we just believe it makes the most sense! Now that is not saying we hold to all of the 'Gap theories' around either...
 
We have studied both sides of the issue for years and have weighed the Creation Science arguments and they just don't add up to disprove the 'Gap Theory' in our minds.
 
As James Montgomery Boice says on page 53 of his commentary of Genesis,
"the arguments of the Gap Theory 'have not been taken seriously enough by those who oppose the theory".
We would agree.
 


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 03, 2015, 05:51:09 am
Actually the word day cannot mean more than one thing once it is used in the grammatical setting it is placed in. Day in the Genesis account is 1 literal 24 hour period. This is further backed up by Exo 20:11 which was written by the Lords very finger. Unless you want to discard what he wrote himself...

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Gap theory is a way for Satan to undermine the Bible by using evolution and science so called. Look at how they actually date things scientifically and you will easily see the ruse that they are using. NO Gap or God is a liar.


You are injecting something into my remark that wasn`t there. Not surprising since you cannot prove your position. Men do not know how long a creation day was. It may have been 24 hours, I have doubts about that but it`s a possibility. That aspect isn`t important because it doesn`t prove or disprove the time gap.

As for the rest of your comment. That is practically a hysterical response to an issue. The existence of a time gap would not make God a liar. There are many things the Bible doesn`t reveal to us, In many cases it only gives us a fragment of information leaving the rest concealed, hidden from us. That`s why Paul compares this life to looking through smokey glass. It`s unfortunate that some have used the gap theory and perverted it in an attempt to reconcile the Bible with evolution and false science. You are preaching to the choir to me on that one. But it is almost as bad when religeous creed prevents people from considering scriptures objectively and openly. I have met many religeous people who are trusting in their creed for their truth instead of trusting in the Spirit of God for it.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on October 03, 2015, 06:26:02 am

You are injecting something into my remark that wasn`t there. Not surprising since you cannot prove your position. Men do not know how long a creation day was. It may have been 24 hours, I have doubts about that but it`s a possibility. That aspect isn`t important because it doesn`t prove or disprove the time gap.

As for the rest of your comment. That is practically a hysterical response to an issue. The existence of a time gap would not make God a liar. There are many things the Bible doesn`t reveal to us, In many cases it only gives us a fragment of information leaving the rest concealed, hidden from us. That`s why Paul compares this life to looking through smokey glass. It`s unfortunate that some have used the gap theory and perverted it in an attempt to reconcile the Bible with evolution and false science. You are preaching to the choir to me on that one. But it is almost as bad when religeous creed prevents people from considering scriptures objectively and openly. I have met many religeous people who are trusting in their creed for their truth instead of trusting in the Spirit of God for it.

I didnt inject anything, only responded to what you said. I easily proved my position, see Exo 20:11 to which you said nothing about. God himself wrote that on a stone tablet. It cannot be refuted. All of creation was created in 6 24 hour days with God resting on the seventh. I dont see the hysterical response you are talking about unless i look toward your response. You are trying to hold on to an idea that does not line up with scripture or history or tradition. When you can refute Exo 20:11 let me know.

Also religious people are not Christian. A religious person could be a hindu, a catholic a new ager. A Christian is someone who doesn't go into religion but has a personal relationship with Jesus.  :)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 03, 2015, 07:25:09 am
I didnt inject anything, only responded to what you said. I easily proved my position, see Exo 20:11 to which you said nothing about. God himself wrote that on a stone tablet. It cannot be refuted. All of creation was created in 6 24 hour days with God resting on the seventh. I dont see the hysterical response you are talking about unless i look toward your response. You are trying to hold on to an idea that does not line up with scripture or history or tradition. When you can refute Exo 20:11 let me know.

Also religious people are not Christian. A religious person could be a hindu, a catholic a new ager. A Christian is someone who doesn't go into religion but has a personal relationship with Jesus.  :)

You injected your assertion that I said the word day can mean different lengths of time in the same passage ( and u calls me a game player   ::) )  No where in the bible does it clarify what sort of day the 6 creation days were so no, you haven`t proved a thing. I didn`t say anything about Exo 20:11 because Exo 20:11 doesn`t answer the riddle. It is just the explaination for the existence of the sabbath. The Millenum rule of Christ is a Sabbath in which the earth will rest for 1000 years. It`s symbolic of the creation week just as the Law Sabbath is. Doesn`t prove how long a creation day is anymore then Exo 20 does.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on October 03, 2015, 07:49:50 am
You injected your assertion that I said the word day can mean different lengths of time in the same passage ( and u calls me a game player   ::) )

You did say that.  ???

Quote
The word day can mean one of several things in scripture.

In Hebrew the words are determined by the grammar that it is used in. In Genesis and Exo it is a 24 hour period. The grammar does not allow any other use.


Quote
  No where in the bible does it clarify what sort of day the 6 creation days were so no, you haven`t proved a thing.

Yes it does Exo 20:11

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Quote
I didn`t say anything about Exo 20:11 because Exo 20:11 doesn`t answer the riddle. It is just the explaination for the existence of the sabbath. The Millenum rule of Christ is a Sabbath in which the earth will rest for 1000 years. It`s symbolic of the creation week just as the Law Sabbath is. Doesn`t prove how long a creation day is anymore then Exo 20 does.

Exo 20:11 has a lot more than explaining the sabbath. But lets go with that. The people gathered their were the Hebrews recently from Egypt. They knew what a 7 day work week was, and they knew that the sabbath was on the 7th day of that week. 7 literaly 24 hour days. They didnt need some kind of esoteric interpretation. 7 days of creation. 7 24 hour days. Sorry that doesnt fit in with your mystery belief of something that never happened, or your apparent belief that death came before sin.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 03, 2015, 08:08:52 am
My comments in ( )


You did say that.  ???

( I said the word has multiple meanings which it does, I did not say it could mean more then one thing at the same time, you are building a strawman here.)

In Hebrew the words are determined by the grammar that it is used in. In Genesis and Exo it is a 24 hour period. The grammar does not allow any other use.

( Yes it does)




Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exo 20:11 has a lot more than explaining the sabbath. But lets go with that. The people gathered their were the Hebrews recently from Egypt. They knew what a 7 day work week was, and they knew that the sabbath was on the 7th day of that week. 7 literaly 24 hour days. They didnt need some kind of esoteric interpretation.

( Apparently, Moses thought that they did.)

7 days of creation. 7 24 hour days. Sorry that doesnt fit in with your mystery belief of something that never happened,

( Strawman. A 24 hour day is earth time. On Gods calender a day is 1000 earth years. Your example proves nothing. Another example is found in the book of Hebrews. The Sabbath day in Hebrews has no time constraint. By your logic I could use that example and claim the 6 day creation took billions of years. Regardless a 6 day creation has no impact on a gap theory. It does not matter for purposes of gap vs no gap. I dunno why you think it`s a smoking gun er somethin)

 or your apparent belief that death came before sin.

( I have no idea what you mean.)


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on October 03, 2015, 09:53:32 am
Quote
On Gods calender a day is 1000 earth years.

 :D :D you really need to quite listening to Tom Horn ans Steve Quayle.  :D :D

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


really. read what that is saying. God does not live within a time space continuum. He lives outside of our time space.  :D That whole passage 2 peter 3 is about how long suffering the Lord is.  Not about actual time. If God was fixed in a time period he would not an all powerful entity, but something that lives within his creation. You cannot use 2 peter 2 as a determining factor for age of anything.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on October 03, 2015, 09:54:33 am
also the only one with a straw man here is you, as you are violating the whole Bible with your push for evolution. please stop. You are trying to discredit the Bible and i will not stand for it.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on October 03, 2015, 09:57:00 am
If there is a gap how did all the plants survive with the sun? I mean for millions of years the trees grew with no sun?  :D Also how did death get BEFORE Sin?


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 03, 2015, 01:29:32 pm
also the only one with a straw man here is you, as you are violating the whole Bible with your push for evolution. please stop. You are trying to discredit the Bible and i will not stand for it.

The only thing I might discredit are some of your interpretations of the Bible.I have never pushed for evolution and have rejected it from my youth. That is a false accusation and a rude attempt to offend me that will not work. You really shouldn`t do such things to other Christians.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 03, 2015, 01:47:01 pm
If there is a gap how did all the plants survive with the sun? I mean for millions of years the trees grew with no sun?  :D Also how did death get BEFORE Sin?

First of all lest I be falsely accused once again, I believe it is probably a young earth. I have grave doubts that it is millions of years old. I believe created rocks are not nearly as old as they appear.
To answer your question. Have you never read revelation 21:23-24 ?   Have you ever read Genesis chapter 1?

The sun wasn`t created until the fourth day but the light was given on the first. Pre Genesis 1:2 worlds that existed recieved their light from God Himself just as the new earth will in eternity.
Stars are not necessary for there to be light and even in the six day creation life and the plants were created before the sun was.

Also, clarify what you mean by "death get before sin" I dunno what that means.



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 03, 2015, 02:01:09 pm
:D :D you really need to quite listening to Tom Horn ans Steve Quayle.  :D :D

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


really. read what that is saying. God does not live within a time space continuum. He lives outside of our time space.  :D That whole passage 2 peter 3 is about how long suffering the Lord is.  Not about actual time. If God was fixed in a time period he would not an all powerful entity, but something that lives within his creation. You cannot use 2 peter 2 as a determining factor for age of anything.

In 2 Peter 3, Peter is quoting words spoken by God himself in the Old Testament. God said one of his days is 1000 earth years, Peter just quoted Him. Per what God said about it, the 24 hour day is based on Gods day but one of our days is but a very tiny fraction of one of Gods days. 6 of God`s days = exactly 6000 earth years. FYI a true earth year = 360 days. Unfortunately the flood threw the earth off sync just a bit.

At any rate you are disputing something God stated as a fact.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on October 03, 2015, 02:17:19 pm
Genesis 1:2 worlds

any proof to that what so ever?

Quote
Also, clarify what you mean by "death get before sin" I dunno what that means

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

no death until Adam sinned. nothing that was alive died. nothing.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on October 03, 2015, 02:20:32 pm
In 2 Peter 3, Peter is quoting words spoken by God himself in the Old Testament. God said one of his days is 1000 earth years, Peter just quoted Him. Per what God said about it, the 24 hour day is based on Gods day but one of our days is but a very tiny fraction of one of Gods days. 6 of God`s days = exactly 6000 earth years. FYI a true earth year = 360 days. Unfortunately the flood threw the earth off sync just a bit.

At any rate you are disputing something God stated as a fact.

and where did he say it as fact?

Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Still means time is meaningless to the Lord.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 03, 2015, 02:23:59 pm
Personally, not only have I studied both sides of the issue, but I also was a gap believer recently.

I am 100% certain that the gap is nothing more than just that, a THEORY(AT BEST, that is).

Our LORD created the earth in 6 days/24 hours per day. End of story.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on October 03, 2015, 02:28:10 pm
The only thing I might discredit are some of your interpretations of the Bible.I have never pushed for evolution and have rejected it from my youth. That is a false accusation and a rude attempt to offend me that will not work. You really shouldn`t do such things to other Christians.


than WHY are you pushing gap theory? Its not supported by the Bible anywhere


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 03, 2015, 02:38:14 pm
My comments in ()

any proof to that what so ever?

( There is. But I don`t think I`ll tell you about it unless you start being nicer LOL!  It`s all just speculation of course. A handful of Bible verses along with a few scientific facts. I enjoy comtemplating Biblical mysteries and looking for other clues from science, history etc. More or less it`s a hobby. I think you feel threatened by issues that you shouldn`t be. It`s a non salvation issue so not really so serious from my point of view.)


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

no death until Adam sinned. nothing that was alive died. nothing.

( In my opinion Romans 5:12 would only pertain from Genesis 1:2 onward. I think there probably was life that died but it might be that everything was eternal. The angels that are fallen haven`t died in the sense that you mean as of yet. That`s an interesting question but it`s one of those things that cannot be answered conclusively. That`s the thing you see or maybe you don`t LOL! The Bible gives almost no information about what was going on before man was created. There are only fragments of information that invite speculation. For me it`s always been fun to try and figure it out. If it wasn`t ok to do that in my opinion, God wouldn`t have left the crumbs in the Bible that spark the curiousity. I think maybe thats why I might enjoy talkin to you about it because you are just so no fun on the issue  ;D  )


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 03, 2015, 02:55:07 pm
than WHY are you pushing gap theory? Its not supported by the Bible anywhere


The term gap theory is your manmade term for it not mine. I have used the term because it is a point of reference that you understand. Putting it in my terms, I believe there was an age and possibly multiple ages before Genesis 1:2. It is a view that is based on a handful of verses, it cannot be conclusively proven or disproven. I have the opinion that the scripture evidence heavily favors a previous age but I don`t get mad at those who disagree. Belief in an Age previous to man is an ancient view. It was not invented in 1814 but one could say it was probably hijacked in 1814. I don`t even know what know what the 1814 gap theory means because I have never read it or studied it. I only know the handful of things the Bible says that appear to be talking about things that happened before the creation of man. The best way to understand my position is to read the article I posted earlier. Its not very long.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: RickStudy on October 03, 2015, 03:08:40 pm
Personally, not only have I studied both sides of the issue, but I also was a gap believer recently.

I am 100% certain that the gap is nothing more than just that, a THEORY(AT BEST, that is).

Our LORD created the earth in 6 days/24 hours per day. End of story.

I personally would never describe it as anything but a theory. My opinion, the evidence is pro gap but it is just a thoery because there isn`t enough scripture to prove it.

I`m not sure why the 24 hour day is so important to you guys. I did a little research on it and from what I see it is an issue that there is a lot of disagreement on. To me it`s something that merits enough latitude to not crucify a brother who has an opinion that differs from my own.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 18, 2015, 12:09:56 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L7YGGhvPks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFPR00J4ldo


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 11, 2015, 09:50:18 pm
Eccl 8:5  Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man's heart discerneth both time and judgment.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 16, 2015, 11:42:42 am
http://www.icr.org/article/1063

Did Noah's Flood Cover the Whole Earth?
by John D. Morris, Ph.D.
Resources › Earth Sciences Resources › Noah's Ark and Flood

Not too long ago, a scientist who claims to believe the Bible and calls himself a creationist, came to ICR to confront us with our error of teaching a recent creation. He held to a 5-billion year-old earth, a view, which we feel, is fraught with many logical fallacies, not the least of which is the insistence that the Flood of Noah was merely a local flood.

Here is the issue: All advocates of the old earth insist that "proof" of such ages lies in the rocks and fossils of the earth's crust. They claim these were laid down by either slow and gradual processes, or by occasional rapid processes of local extent. The fact that many of these rock layers are of continental extent forces them to postulate migrating shorelines, widely meandering rivers, unthinkably large deltas, etc. Furthermore, the rock units in most cases were laid down by catastrophic events, but these events, they say, were rare, occurring every million years or so.

But if the flood actually happened the way the Bible seems to describe it (i.e., a year-long, mountain-covering, world-restructuring event), it would have laid down many layers of mud full of dead things (i.e., now rocks and fossils) covering immense areas, having been deposited under catastrophic conditions. A proper interpretation of the rocks and fossils speaks of a global, dynamic, watery catastrophe: the Biblical Deluge.

Only denial of Biblical teaching could lead one to misinterpret the rocks and fossils to support long ages. If the flood happened the way the Bible says it happened, then it laid down the rocks and fossils, and there is no remaining evidence for an old earth, or evolution, for that matter.

Let me urge you to read carefully Genesis 6-9. If God was really trying to describe a local flood, He certainly could have written much more clearly, for over and over again the wording demands a global flood. In fact, I have counted over 100 times when the wording implies a global flood. Consider these few quotes of the many: "the face of the earth (i.e., planet)" (6:1); "end of all flesh . . .the earth is filled with violence . . .I will destroy them with the earth" (6:13); "destroy all flesh wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven, and everything that is in the earth shall die" (6:17); etc., etc.

Furthermore, God promised never to send another flood like Noah's Flood (9:11, 15), but there have been many local floods, even regional floods, since Noah's Flood. If Noah's Flood was only a local flood, then God lied to us. Likewise, there was no need for Noah to build an ark for his survival for he had many years' warning (6:3).

Perhaps more convincing is the fact that Jesus Christ based His teaching of coming judgment on all mankind on the fact that Noah's Flood judged all mankind (Matthew 24:36-39, Luke 17:26, 27). A local flood implies a partial judgment. Likewise, Peter based his prophecy that the existing planet: will "melt with fervent heat" (II Peter 3:10) and an entire"new heavens" and a "new earth" will be recreated (3:13) on the historical fact of the global flood of Noah's day (3:6). All things considered, few doctrines are taught as clearly in Scripture as that of the global flood.

The Christian need not distort the clear teachings of the Word of God. My testimony as a geologist is this: I know no fact of geology that cannot be interpreted by the Biblical worldview in a way at least as satisfying as (usually better than) the evolutionary, slow-and-gradual worldview.

*Dr. John Morris is President of ICR.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Genesis 1:2 describes the earth at that point and time as "without form and void" - there's NO way some "Lucifer's flood" (or whatever worldwide catastrophic flood judgment the gap theory proponents want to call it) happened. NADA!


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 19, 2015, 03:46:33 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzA6vD8WTgY


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 27, 2015, 10:24:59 pm
Job 12:12  With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.

Even this verse says 6 day creation, no gap period. End of story.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 20, 2016, 12:31:57 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UgVjZ2VDc8


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 20, 2016, 12:41:17 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTsUBlTSvGA


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on June 20, 2016, 05:22:55 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UgVjZ2VDc8

I liked that.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

The pre fallen Satan. So impossible for Satan to have fallen before Gen 1:2 as the Garden wasn't even made yet.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 20, 2016, 07:14:25 pm
Yes, that's what caught my attention when I watched Wampler (the pastor in this video point this out) - I never thought about that (that Eden was NOT created before Gen 1:2). That right there blows the whole gap theory out of the water.

BTW - did you notice how Wampler was grimacing at Greg Miller's arrogance (when he played that short clip from his sermon)?


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on June 20, 2016, 07:31:49 pm
BTW - did you notice how Wampler was grimacing at Greg Miller's arrogance (when he played that short clip from his sermon)?

It's kind of hard not to when Greg Miller opens his mouth.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 28, 2016, 05:18:46 pm
Seriously, this nonsense has infiltrated so deep, that it's slowly becoming acceptable ESPECIALLY in King James Bible circles! It's really, really sad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seDxpz4qp9Q


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on January 21, 2017, 06:01:21 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhJcjm049so


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on January 21, 2017, 06:05:07 pm
Beat me to it! :D

I'm about 15 minutes into it, so far, very good. These kinds of sermons are much needed!


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on January 21, 2017, 09:46:44 pm
Excellent sermon! He made 3 very good points...

1) By and large, a lot of these preachers and teachers are teaching it not b/c their wolves, per se, but b/c they were TAUGHT IT INITIALLY. I can attest for this myself, as I bought into it initially. And yes, it's by and large hit KJB fundamental circles. Even some very good preachers and evangelists from yesteryear (ie, AW Tozer and AW Pink, both of whom I personally highly regard) bought into the gap.

2) The chronologies in various chapters of the bible PROVE there's NO "history" before the creation period, NONE. But en yet people will still look at the geologic columns, the evolutionary models, and what not to get answers. It's all RIGHT THERE in scripture, the chronology that is!

3) Death came by rebellion/sin of MAN (Adam), and NOT Satan. This is HUGE, b/c if we buy into the latter, then we lose our understanding of The SAVIOUR, Jesus Christ, who came into the world to give salvation.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on April 16, 2017, 01:22:42 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yax44n8wODw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyCRkPm9BMw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IliCaIZDwEw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8-xri2B_J8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asOV54drbFw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAezyY9Cars



Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Mark on April 16, 2017, 01:45:30 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQe0f9UrE-E


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 16, 2017, 01:51:17 pm
I saw this 2 years ago, which was the first Joey Wampler sermon I saw.

Pretty much explained everything - and he made a good point, that the proponents of it tend to get offended when you point out the heresies.


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 20, 2017, 04:59:19 pm
Even more interesting things are covered in this sermon!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk8Z8fWm-ls


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 26, 2017, 06:18:26 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaORh5KAZzQ


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 25, 2017, 02:43:14 pm
Published on Feb 16, 2017

A video on the topic of "STUDY" itself and to get you really thinking about WHAT it is you are studying and WHY. I also pose some challenging things for consideration with regards to the ultimate purpose of study. I pray it provokes you to think on it as you ought to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUWrKAIJXzY


Title: Re: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 12, 2017, 02:19:47 pm
Was surprised by some of the things they talked about I never knew! Cooley did this radio show with an IFB minister in Michigan, well worth the listen!

(http://media.sermonaudio.com/gallery/photos/CooleyJason-02.jpg)

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=711172320127
    
A Biblical ReProof Of The Gap Theory: Pre-Adamic Flood Or Modern Fraud?
Series:  OPBC ONLINE Radio Show  · 7 of 7
   
7/11/2017 (TUE)

Audio: http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=711172320127