End Times and Current Events

"Art thou called [being] a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use [it] rather." 1 Corinthians 7:21 (KJB)


Considering the exhortations in scripture in relation to the end times and the "mark of the beast", this particular verse has been brought to my attention of the Spirit many times, and I must say I'm not sure how it relates to the end times, but I believe it does, it's just a matter of when it is really relevant. I believe iron does sharpen iron, so God willing the Spirit will gives us understanding on the matter.

From what I understand and believe, the body of Christ must at some point withdraw from worldly society, even jobs within society. And I must also say that I have a hard time with the body being servants of men in the world.

The above scripture does appear to say that "use" of a servitude can be done, but to what point and for how long and in what capacity is what I ponder.

We know that friendship with the world is emnity against God (James 4:4), so why is the body working in the world as servants to man? Is that exercising "use", or is that out of ignorance of scripture that the vast majority of people insist on having a job in society? Maybe even sent into servitude of men by the pulpits of the "Romans 13" false church? More importantly, what is Jesus telling people?


"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matthew 6:24 (KJB)


"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:33 (KJB)


"And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 (KJB)


"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39 (KJB)

No commments? Interesting.

Excellent!

You know, I've been thinking along these lines for the past few months or so - yes, the going's getting rough now, but God's Word NEVER changes. Evil will be destroyed in the end, all we have to do is OBEY and TRUST in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you for posting this - even I myself have been guilty of yoking up myself with the world system et al here and there. Scripture clearly says not to.

Another thing - every now and then, I hear a few of my Christians friends tell me how Catholics are good people because they do alot of good giving to charities et al to society, and don't act self-righteous.

Almost every time, I have to tell them that what they're doing with their "good works" is a SET UP-ie, one of them being is that they're using these "good works" to have all religions to work together...meaning this is a step for this **** church to UNITE all the pagan religions with christianity as much as possible. The Emergent Church is doing the exact same thing. IOW-their intentions are NOT good.

We really have to watch our backs and serve the Lord, and the Lord Jesus only in these rough times we're living in now.

I posted the several months ago and got basically one reply. I'm curious if anyone has consider this more recently.

I'm glad you bumped this thread - yes, this is something to really ponder about. It seems like more and more news reports coming out are how companies, government sectors, 501c3 churches, you name it, are doing their part in implementing the draconian NWO agendas for Satan.

Yes, I know that Paul said if you don't work, you don't eat(ie-even though Singular cell phone service advertises occult symbolism subtlely meaning they're probably part of the NWO team, that doesn't mean a Christian employee in it has to leave it or else take the mark of the beast). But NONETHELESS, NONETHELESS...like said in the above paragraph, there are numerous things of grave concern in the overall workforce and schools that are conditioning everyone and even helping to implement this draconian system.

Personally, I've been unemployed for almost 3 years ago save for a minimum temp wage stint for 3.5 months last year(it's been incredibly difficult) - but I will admit, I feel the Lord has allowed this just for this very reason the OP talks about.

I think this is an interesting thread. How do you choose a job, who to work for.

Here are some verses:

Galatians 6:
4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

Ephesians 4:
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

2 Thessalonians 3:
8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.

1 Corinthians 4:
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

Hebrews 13:
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 15:
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 3:
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Serve the Lord in whatever you do and you will be well rewarded in Heaven.

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:4 (KJB)

That's another verse to think about what it means. Literal or spiritual or both? We are to walk in the Spirit, right? So to me that means we are to look to the spiritual understanding. So the added question is when is it night that no man can work, and what is that work? Something tells me scripture isn't talking about a job at the local grocery!

And if you take that stance and then read those verses and apply it was though the "work" mentioned is in fact "the work of an evangelist", it takes on a whole new meaning.

It is my contention that the work is as the verse says, "working with your hands that thing which is good", so what is that thing which is good? And how can a person be a busybody by not holding down a literal job?

The primary thing Jesus tells us is to go into all the world and preach the gospel. THAT is the work I believe we are called to do. For those who for whatever reason are servants to men, they are called to act in a certain way towards their masters in the flesh, right? Masters are also called to act a certain way towards their servants, so Jesus does cover that situation, for those who are servants to men, but scripture says to not care for it, but that we do have the liberty to "use it rather". How one uses it is up to the person and God, which I believe is staying in the Spirit however it may be.

But when I read all those verses about work, to me, it keeps saying the same thing, that we are to "work with our hands", which is searching the scriptures, making full proof of our ministry, to do the "work of an evangelist".

And for those that may respond, "But if a person doesn't "work", then how can they survive or feed their families?" The best reply I have so far is I in turn ask them, How did Israel make it forty years in the desert? Why did Jesus point to the birds of the air and how the Father feeds them? And what about the 40 days that Jesus spent in the desert? And what about the Apostles during their time with Jesus which they seem to not be working any jobs, but in fact Jesus told them to drop their nets and follow Him?

"Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord." 1 Corinthians 15:58 (KJB)

26   Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 
27   Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 
28   Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 
29   Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 
30   They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 
31   Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 
32   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 
33   For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 
34   Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 
35   And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 
John 6:26-35 (KJB)

Kilika, good point about the "if you don't work, you don't eat" passage - no wonder why today's 501c3/big buildings "church" interprets it just the opposite...it's b/c so they can convince their pews to give their money to support their 501c3 ministries and buildings.

No, I agree that we need to work to make a living, but this is GOD'S WORD we are talking about here!

Thought I would bring up this thread again b/c this is a good passage to think about.

I was having a conversation with a fellow brethren the other day, and 2 points were brought up...

1) It seems like a big growing number of businesses and companies are yoking themselves up slowly but surely with the mark of the beast system. No, I'm not saying every single company(I'm sure there are good ones runned by Christians). No, I'm not saying every business is runned by masons and witches. But by and large, they are getting in bed with the biometrics program, among many of the other system's draconian agendas to usher in the events of Rev 13.

Personally, my dad is in academia, and there are alot of research stuff with the government and military. I am getting more and more concerned with him, especially as these last days(it seems like) are inching closer and closer. Over the last year or so, he's been depressed b/c his proposals have been rejected(meaning he won't be able to pay much to his grad students et al), and now I heard him say today that maybe there's more opportunities with Homeland Security...OK, I'll stop right there. The Pentagon, Homeland Security, the Defense Department(all of which my dad crosses paths with, as well as academia), are the BIG honcho ones serving Satan and the mark of the beast system. No, I'm not in any way saying my dad is, but nonetheless, this is pretty concerning. Which is why, personally, I find it a blessing that his proposals have been rejected(even though I won't admit it to him).

And on my side, I'm in Accounting/Finance(and have my CPA) - however, especially since the Enron scandal, which has(supposedly) boomed the Accounting job market...quite frankly, it's all but helping out the mark of the beast system as well. I hate to say this(as I'm in this field), but the facts are that ever since the Enron scandal, the Accounting field has pretty much played the role of "big brother" to the corporate/business world.

Anyhow, didn't mean to go into detail about my personal side, and I am NOT saying to quit your jobs if let's say you work for Verizon or any other big corporation(or for that matter if the bosses in your company are masons or whatever), but at the same time, as the last days are approaching fast, it seems like every public/private sector is getting in bed with the MOB system. Next thing we know, the only employment available will be from the government itself. Which is why I will personally admit that I think it was God's will for me not to land a job for these 3 years I've been layed off(ie-one time, I had one in my pocket when a recruiter called, but my cell phone just MYSTERIOUSLY hung up, and they ended up giving the position to someone else. I was mad then, but I understood completely as time went on. Praise Jesus!).

2. The fellow brethren I had this chat with made a very good point here - is it really worth it if we work in places where not only it's secular, but we have to keep our mouths shut about the gospel, and for that matter not be able to confess Jesus's name? Scripture clearly says if we deny him, then he will deny us before the holy angels. If we're ashamed of him, then he will be ashamed of us before the holy angels.

I mean the longer we're in these places, the more we get CONDITIONED to be ashamed of the gospel. To me, it's no different from exposing ourselves to blasphemous Hollywood movies(where we then learn to blaspheme God).

I remember William F. Cooper said in his Mystery Babylon series that it will come to a point when this NWO is implemented when the desperate will be BEGGING for a job. I'm not endorsing Cooper, but when we had this discussion the other day, Cooper's comment here came to my mind just now.

We're supposed to preach and share the gospel to all the world, right? It's pretty bad if we're stuck in a 9-5 job having to keep our mouths shut about the gospel, right?

Was wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this.

Thought I'd post my comments about the work that a Christian is called to do, as in witnessing to others, as in "do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry"...

Well we can never give in to the government's rules that say we cant preach the Gospel. The Lord Jesus is higher than these governments so we should obey the Lord Jesus Christ first. There comes a point where we have to choose to obey the Lord Jesus over man. Satan is concerned with the things of man, the Lord Jesus wants us to be concerned with the things of God. We should be heavenly minded not earthly minded. Why should be obey mere men? It is far better to have no job than to work as a slave for the New World Order. Plus the Lord Jesus wants us to trust Him for our needs. You will find that obeying the Lord Jesus is eternally better than obeying the government.

Also another thing I thought I would add...

Being on university campuses for who-knows-how-many-years, can't tell you how many false promises and lies we were fed concerning the job markets and the amount of pay potentially thrown at us.

For example, when I went back to school for Accounting, it was around the time the Enron fiasco happened, and Congress had to put out much tighter laws to watch over business...this meant more opportunities for Accountants(especially Auditors). It was through this that almost every Beta Alpha Psi(honors Accounting group I was in at my univ), the speakers went on and on how once we pass the CPA exam, there will be a world of jobs, promotion opportunities, higher pay, etc, etc, and even pointed to this Enron fiasco as an example how the Accounting field is thriving.

Guess what...no, the job market for Accountants is NOT what they promised many times. No, it wasn't bad, but it wasn't like you can walk in anywhere you like(whether Public Accounting or Private Industry) and thrive a career to your heart's desire. Now even with a HORRIBLE job market overall, they're still putting out this LIE that Actuaries(another profession) in insurance companies et al are still thrive, the pay is at least $50K a year, blah, blah, blah. Again, another LIE - now I hear from people that to get jobs in this profession, just looking around the internet(ie, careerbuilder.com) and the local paper's classifieds is not suffice.(ie-you literally have to be aggressive, as the jobs are rather sparse)

Anyhow, it just amazes me how the secular world(ie-the public education system) puts out so many lies and false promises, but Churchianity of today acts like everything's all good, it's no big deal, etc, etc.

No wonder why Churchianity is so blind to scripture today, and no marvel why we are having a big falling away now(b/c people want to rely on their church systems rather than scripture).

Seriously, what the OP brought up to discuss here is an example of how we really need the Holy Spirit in guiding us in searching the scriptures. I mean in the present day - college students are having a very tough time finding decent employment, people are getting layed off...but with so many years of brainwashing from Churchianity over how "if ye don't work ye don't eat = ye don't have a job we shouldn't feel pity for you"(and on and on with other heresies), and couple that with all the false promises given by the public education system to our young kids for many years...

Again, this is really why we need to study and search the scriptures daily.(and pray and watch, of course) This is why I bring this up in this post right here.

Yes that falling away is happening now so the Rapture comes into view.

Not that I'm trying to patronize the OP or anything, but this is one of the better threads(in the 2 years I've been here) on this forum, but few responses? I'm surprised.

Anyhow, thought I would throw this out there too-not that I'm endorsing the public school system, but...

My Marketing professor in 2004 made one very interesting comment - prior to WW2, the economy was VERY simple, "We make them, you buy them". AFTER WW2, it got much more complicated as they approached every product to tailor them to everyone's tastes, so as a result the market exploded and got more competitive. For example, prior to WW2, selling sweaters was just that, the businesses would merely make them as they are, and the citizens would buy them. Afterward, they would tailor them in many different ways(via colors, logos on them, etc, etc) to appeal to many demographics, which exploded the market.

Pt being here is that prior to WW2, you really didn't see many, if hardly any "career minded" people - it was all very simple. The man of the house would work his 8 hour day, albeit with alot of joy and fruitfulness, come home and care for his family. Overall, everyone was very happy their NEEDS were provided. Since WW2 until this present day? Look how the "career mindedness" has EXPLODED. Go to college, either go to graduate school or get certifications so that you can make good money, get promotions and make more money...however, strings are attached as LONG work hours are required.

As a result, the man of the house has less time to spend with his family, and even lesser time to be in God's presence via the word and prayer. The family has broken up little by little...divorce rates going up, kids with less parental guidance...and during all this time the enemy(ie-Satan and his minions) has really thrown alot right under their noses(ie-sex and violence in the media, fast-food poisons, pharmakia), and not to mention too while the world has been deceived into thinking of being "career minded", alot of other draconian stuff like credit cards and getting into other debt has been seen as "buying the American dream"(which really ballooned during Reagan).

And to make matters worse, Churchianity acts like if you merely give your increased salaries from your blessed careers to them, God will abundantly bless you.

Anyhow, like I said, I don't endorse my Marketing professor(she could have brought up the Federal Reserve system that has hindered alot of things), but still, she brought up a very good point pre/post WW2 which got me thinking.

That I think is the point that people have forgotten. Things didn't use to be this way as you say. People did the various "work" around their house. That was their jobs, to take care of their household and those in it. Build a house, plant food, make clothes and household items that were needed to care for the house.

There wasn't all the carnal trappings of today, such as going to movies, watching tv, shopping for clothes (except the very rich) going on vacations, pension plans, retirements, none of that. Just look at all the various things people buy that they don't need, but simply want because they think it's cool. Look at the money spent on furnishings, decorations, electronics, etc. The biggest cost these days to families is a house, car, and college. Back in the day, all you really needed was a horse, and natural building materials were and are plentiful, but with one BIG catch these days; government regulations.

That is a big problem for people these days too. You can't just buy some land from a person for an agreed price and go about your business. Oh No, you got to jump through all kinds of licenses, permits, titles, driving up the price. Then you got all the zoning regulations that says what you can and can't build, which forces people to use "licensed" contractors. You can't even technically do any wiring in your home because of building permit requirements. And look at the requirements for a foundation! Man, there is just no way around it, you are forced to go by zoning laws, or they tear your house down!

With an interest in architecture rom school, I've over the years studied the cheapest, and most energy efficient ways to build a home, and I've pretty much settled on adobe style construction. Yeah, I'm in a desert, but having research it, that stuff is amazing material and CHEAP. You can do it all yourself, BUT the foundation and electrical work. Some areas may even require a licensed plumber, which is a joke. But anyway, the point is that there is nowhere to build that government doesn't restrict you somehow which costs more money. That wasn't the case back many years ago.

Many of the federal agencies of today didn't exist back before WW2, and yes, far less regulations and such. But we knew it was going to get worse and worse, and so it has.

The "world" has put pressure through social means to force people into thinking they must have a career, etc or they aren't as good as the rest of society. It's classic peer pressure.

But there is NO LAW that says one must have a "job" in the world, but in fact scripture says do the work of an evangalist. HOW you care for your home starts with guiding the house spiritually in the Word, as the household's elder. Then everything else is added on, just as Jesus says, like with the birds of the air.

God takes care of the animals, so why wouldn't He care for us? He does, if we let Him, and we not go running off on our own caught up in "works".

What does scripture say?

"And having food and raiment let us be therewith content." 1 Timothy 6:8 (KJB)

And what is that actually saying? What is "food and raiment"? Well, I believe since we are told to walk in the Spirit, and compare spiritual with spiritual, then we must look at that verse spiritually. So the food (bread of life) is the Word, and the raiment (He is a shield unto them...) is the Word. So I believe that verse is saying having the Word of God, let us be content. We are to "think on these things" which is the Word.

"But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you." Luke 12:31 (KJB)

Anyone?

Anyhow, being "career minded" truely has its consequences, no matter if you have a perfect attendance at church and consistently read whatever bible/daily devotional you have 15 minutes a day.

I was reading this the last couple of days...

Col 2:20  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21  (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Col 3:5  Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6  For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1) Like the 1st above passage says, we're supposed to be FREE FROM the rudiments of this world. What happens if we're "career minded"? We're in BONDAGE to the rudiments of this world.

2) The 2nd passage links covetousness with idolatry - if one is "career minded", why? B/c they covet alot of money, honor, higher positions, etc, which obviously is idolatry. And look at the the next verse in this passage says...the wrath of God cometh(b/c of disobedience)...

And if we're "career minded" of this world...it's gonna be harder and harder to witness the gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost, quite simply b/c you're gonna be afraid to do so in fear of not achieving your goals in this Christ-hating world(like Jesus said, the world hateth you b/c it hateth me first).

Ultimately, it's rather obvious why the wolves have had a much easier time to infiltrate church buildings - the masons, witches, the emergent/purpose driven movement, new age movement, etc. It's as if the wolves are running the church institutions now b/c churches by and large are lowering themselves to the world. Even pastors are becoming "career minded" now, and their rotten fruit is showing.

And ultimately too, without praying and seeking the word of God daily, how are we going to have DISCERNMENT? Yeah, another big reason why the wolves have taken over the churches. For example, back in 2004 when my previous church moved into a million dollar new building, they started the whole purpose driven studies(and even invited 2 Roman Catholic political candidates at its grand opening). I thought it was a great idea, as did everyone else, largely b/c our pastor said so, largely b/c Warren (supposedly)gave 90% tithe, largely b/c Larry King thought Warren was a great guy, you get the point. Overall, being a "window shopping" Christian back then, I was really fooling myself thinking I was saved and had a one way ticket punched to heaven already. I'll admit I have regrets over coveting another career at the time first, and pretty much ignoring the word of God.

Anyways, yes, there are alot of consequences to being "career minded" - you just didn't see this mindset pre-WW2(and for that matter 100s of years before that). But somehow it came into play once the NWO minions hijacked the public education system in the 50's. Peter warned your adversaries are many and are prowling around like a roaring lion. How are you going to have discernment if you put your career first?

Heb 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

2Co 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Also to add too, when you work long hours(like I said in a previous job 3 years ago) to try to move up to better opportunities, you're only going to add more sorrows, lusts, etc, etc. This was my experience(not speaking for everyone else, but I feel this can creep in to anyone).

Jas 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren.

How are you going to have discernment if you put your career first?

You dont have discernment if you put your career first. One has to put the Lord Jesus Christ first and not be conformed to this world.

You may become an outcast in this world but you will have traded a difficult and corrupt system for a pearl of great price (that is the Kingdom of heaven)

Matthew 13:
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one PEARL of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Romans 12:
2 And be not CONFORMED to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

And what is God's will?

2 Peter 3:
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The best place to be is doing God's will. And that is to preach the Gospel to the lost. There are myriad of methods to do that. Some people believe that giving money to missionaries for Bibles and necessities is an indirect form of preaching the Gospel to the lost.

Satan is very subtle and tricky, he can use the whole world system against you to try to get you away from thinking about the things of God.

1 John 4:
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because GREATER IS HE THAT is in you, than he that is in the world.

John 16:
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have OVERCOME THE world.

That of servitude and freedom. It was common in that age of the world for many to be in a state of slavery, bought and sold for money, and so the property of those who purchased them. "Now,’’ says the apostle, "art thou called being a servant? Care not for it. Be not over-solicitous about it. It is not inconsistent with thy duty, profession, or hopes, as a Christian. Yet, if thou mayest be made free, use it rather,’’ v. 21. There are many conveniences in a state of freedom above that of servitude: a man has more power over himself, and more command of his time, and is not under the control of another lord; and therefore liberty is the more eligible state. But men’s outward condition does neither hinder nor promote their acceptance with God. For he that is called being a servant is the Lord’s freed-man—apeleutheros, as he that is called being free is the Lord’s servant. Though he be not discharged from his master’s service, he is freed from the dominion and vassalage of sin. Though he be not enslaved to Christ, yet he is bound to yield himself up wholly to his pleasure and service; and yet that service is perfect freedom. Note, Our comfort and happiness depend on what we are to Christ, not what we are in the world. The goodness of our outward condition does not discharge us from the duties of Christianity, nor the badness of it debar us from Christian privileges. He who is a slave may yet be a Christian freeman; he who is a freeman may yet be Christ’s servant. He is bought with a price, and should not therefore be the servant of man. Not that he must quit the service of his master, or not take all proper measures to please him (this were to contradict the whole scope of the apostle’s discourse); but he must not be so the servant of men but that Christ’s will must be obeyed, and regarded, more than his master’s. He has paid a much dearer price for him, and has a much fuller property in him. He is to be served and obeyed without limitation or reserve. Note, The servants of Christ should be at the absolute command of no other master besides himself, should serve no man, any further than is consistent with their duty to him. No man can serve two masters. Though some understand this passage of persons being bought out of slavery by the bounty and charity of fellow-Christians; and read the passage thus, Have you been redeemed out of slavery with a price? Do not again become enslaved; just as before he had advised that, if in slavery they had any prospect of being made free, they should choose it rather. This meaning the words will bear, but the other seems the more natural.

Mathew Henry

Also to add - I saw 2 end times Christian movies on youtube last night. One of them was "Years of the Beast", and the other "Gone". In the former, there was a discussion midway in the movie over how(and even doubts by a few) that if you take the mark of the beast, your eternal damnation is sealed. Then it was discussed that it's b/c you're giving your ALLIEGIANCE to the beast.

Overall, it seems like even a growing number of Christians don't understand this(I'll admit I myself too at times won't have a firm handle on it). Here's the point - whether it's the mark of the beast in the tribulation, or whether it's in our every day lives before the tribulaion starts - scripture specifically states NOT to serve 2 masters. To love the Lord with all our heart, soul, strength and mind(1st commandment). To serve the Lord ONLY. We shall live on every word of God. The list goes on. Anyway, today's modern-day Churchianity seems to be kept in the dark in this - we are supposed to give our allegiance to Jesus Christ, not to the rudiments of this world. What happens if we become "career-minded"? We are serving another master, we are not serving the Lord wholly with our heart, etc.

Ultimately, we can read our bibles at morning-time(and pray a few minutes with it) all we want, but if it comes to a point where we're engulfing ourselves in these career-minded jobs, we're going to forget what we read and prayed about in the morning. Like James said - be doers of the word, and not hearers only. And remember the sick and demon-possessed that cried out to the Lord Jesus Christ in the 4 gospels of the NT - what did Jesus tell them? BELIEVE. Honestly, if one choses a "career-minded" path, do you think that person believes an ounce of anything that Jesus said? Not so sure...I was in this boat when I was pursuing this career-minded path, and I can honestly say I fooled myself into thinking merely going to church and giving 10% tithe would do the trick, but I had no love of the Father inside of me(b/c I had the love of the world and the lusts thereof).

As for the 2nd movie - while I do NOT recommend seeing it(yes, it was a "Christian" end times movie, but it had a New Agey-feel with the Illuminati's fingerprints all over it), however, the plot about the 3 young men who graduated from prestigious law schools and were working their way up the corporate ladder was the thing that caught my eye in it. Right before the "rapture", they were deceived into believing that the world was in their fingertips to help usher in a utopia, even if it meant stepping on everyone's toes and acting unclean. Just to make a long story short, at the end of the movie, while one of the young men repented, the other of the 3 admitted that one of Satan's big deceptions is convincing everyone he doesn't exist, and went on to say that these big career-minded jobs are one way to get them away from the word of God. It sure had that feel after the first 10-15 minutes of it.

Ultimately, Satan and his minions have been conditioning this world to take the mark of the beast for a long, long time. No, it's not some "surprise" thing that comes up in the tribulation, b/c for years upon decades upon centuries, Satan's biggest weapon has been deception, and one of his agendas has been to deceive people into putting allegiances into other material things to get them away from the word of God. There are other examples of this too - the "religious right" pushing Christians to give allegiances to Republican politicians, public schools having kids pledge allegiance to the flag, and not to knock on sports teams(as I watch the games), but conditioning them to eye the prize of a championship trophy is not good either(as it's a corruptible crown that will burn up eventually).

What happens if we don't eat our daily bread, the word of God? We're not going to have discernment, we're not going to be ready as are adversaries are coming from many places. We're going to get entrenched into the rudiments of this world. And we're not going to have a mind of Christ, discerning what is good and what is evil.

Ultimately - that person who claims himself to be a Christian and takes the mark of the beast is no different from that person claiming to be a Christian who dies years before the tribulation starts, but gives his allegiance to a career-minded path(ie-here in North Texas somewhere, there was this 100 year old guy who died recently that just kept working at his law firm until he died. He was also a regular church goer, and was [supposedly]seen as a good Christian. I'm not going to judge him, but honestly, I really don't know, as he seemed to be pretty highly esteemed for his merely being a good person and nothing else).

Anyhow, after viewing those 2 movies last night, I was thinking about this thread.

I was just reading this passage(again)...the bolded is the "can't work, can't eat" passage...now look at 2 of the underlined words in the bolded, and you will see how these same 2 words are used in OTHER verses in this SAME passage...

2Th 3:6  Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th 3:7  For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2Th 3:8  Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
2Th 3:9  Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
2Th 3:10  For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th 3:11  For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
2Th 3:12  Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
2Th 3:13  But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
2Th 3:14  And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15  Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

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Will let you decide - but outside of the bolded 2 verses, Paul was NOT talking about working a job so you can eat, he was talking about having discernment in terms of fellowshipping with the right/wrong people. So pt being that God is not the author of confusion - why would Paul throw in some other topic in between but very briefly, when he was preaching something completely different in this entire 2nd The 3?

I believe that what is being talked about is work, as in "working with our hands that thing which is good".

"Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth." Ephesians 4:28 (KJB)

The person who walks "disorderly" and is a "busybody", I believe is the person who is NOT working with his hands that thing, which is the Word of God. They are the ones running around telling everybody what and how, but they themselves aren't studying the Word. It's like an unbeliever trying to tell a Christian that they aren't being a good Christian.

The disciples were taken care of, and their ministry was supported by the various believers, the "churches which are in Asia", etc. It's suppose to be the churches share between themselves and provide assistance to those who are fulltime in the ministry because they don't work a job. So those who don't work in the ministry aren't entitled to the help those who do work in the minstry get.

Basically, I think Paul is saying that if a person isn't willing to do the work of an evangalist (study to show thyself approved unto God), then they aren't entitled to the "income" of one.

Also to add - during my years in college, whatever your major/studies were, the themes were the same - when you get a job, do NOT stay in the same (entry level)position you started in, but move up to better promotions and opportunities, otherwise you will not last long as companies will move you out.

Again, whatever happened to be rejoiceful in the fruitfulness of our labour? And is "entry level" another PC term added to the mix? Yeah, another example of the public education system conditioning everyone to be "career-minded" and make loads of money(to better put it, loads of unlimited paper money that will be worthless one day when the global economy crashes).

Also to add too, thought I would share this here - many years ago before 9/11 when I had an AOL account, some young boy IM'd me b/c he wanted to talk and was lonely(he saw my frequent posts in one of the message forums there). I tried to ignore him, but at the same time I tried to be kind b/c both of his parents had full time jobs that were very demanding(and paid very well too), and he had some kind of mental illness(dyxlexia, I think). No, I didn't think he was some adult pedifile masquerading as a young boy b/c I thought he sounded pretty genuine. But nonetheless, I felt rather sorry for him b/c he was all alone, and his parents seemed to have this thinking that all the money they make and provide for him, he would be very happy and satisfied. But at the same time, it was pretty obvious even with all the material stuff he had around him, he was pretty lonely and sad.

It was shortly after 9/11 when I cancelled my AOL account(and never heard from him again), but as you can see, America really, really has gone down the tubes post-WW2. You have politicians, especially "Republicans" on Capitol Hill always saying how they can open up the economy and provide jobs, but none of them have any biblical truth in them, and today's "Churchianity" has fell for them hook, line, and sinker. No wonder why alot of wicked stuff(rock music, pharmakia, fast-food poisons, etc, etc) have gone right under people's noses. People have rejected Jesus Christ and want to walk after their own lusts, so God says, "OK, if you want to be delivered unto Satan...".

No, I'm not saying I'm Mr. Perfect - I was in this situation too when I had big ambitions in the career-minded path. I suffered the consequences both times. This is why I bring this up(as it comes from my experiences as well).

Read this passage this evening - which everyone here should be very familiar with, however, imho, this is probably the most crucially important passage for any believer.

1Jn 2:14  I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jn 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17  And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

This is one passage(among many very important ones) that Churchianity ends up ignoring. Anyhow, yeah, this passage is what it is - you can rationalize all you want over how you read your bible every day, pray every day, etc, etc. But if you work toward these career-minded jobs and focus on them, again, this passage of scripture is what it is. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, there's NO way in trying to bargain your way out of this. I will admit(like I've said numerous times here) I've been down this road, and I've even went as far as tithing more than 10% thinking it would get the job done - still felt incredibly empty in my heart. Again, very crucial passage.

And then look at the passages that come right after this, and even though it switches gears a bit, again, look what it says...

1Jn 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Interestering this passage is thrown here right after - just remember all those other passages where Jesus warns us to WATCH, where Jesus warns us how we have MANY adversaries coming after us, and then that 2nd The 2 passage where it talks about the "strong delusion" being thrown at those who do not accept the love of the truth(as well as the rise of the end times antichrist). So if we love this world and the things thereof in it, including the lusts thereof...we won't be watching...we won't be discerning...you see where this is going? Seriously, no wonder why Churchianity today has so many WOLVES in their church buildings. So ultimately, if we don't have the love of the Father in us, but following the lusts of this world, will we be watching and discerning over the many adversaries that are coming after us? Don't think so.

For those that DO have the love of the truth...

1Jn 2:20  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jn 2:21  I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jn 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

So Jesus says he has written us these things b/c we KNOW the truth. Hhmmmmm...........again, anyone can read their bibles for hours all they want, but if one puts alot of their time into their careers, does anyone think they know the truth, or have even accepted the love of the truth? Again, like I said above, I've been down this road before, and have fooled myself so many times.

Just thought I would throw this out there too-

When one is career-minded, he/she ends up focusing on himself 100% of the time. No time for prayer, the word of God, or anything else.

Pt being that when we are serving God, and serving God ALONE, the blessings of opportunities we are able to serve him are ABUNDANT. For example, it was 2 months ago when the Lord was moving me to do this - every time I take my run around the neighborhood, I noticed this one couple with 2 kids, one toddler and another a new born. After awhile, it was when I went up to their home one Sun evening and gave them info on the dangers of vaccines, as well as Scott's contendingfortruth.com site(told them how he is a Christian watchman), read them a couple of bible passages concerning how vaccines are dangerous(ie-our bodies are the temple of God, and in Genesis how God told Adam to be fruitful and multiply), and then gave them a tract.

No, I'm not saying we should do this every single day going around door to door(this would be a works of the flesh), but pt being that when you are serving Christ, and Christ alone, you just see the fruitfulness in abundance.

Again, I'm not saying we should form an anti-vaccines activism movement(again, this would be a works of the flesh), but when you are career-minded, and then the whole environment around you is like this, the rotten fruit of thorns just grows out in abundance. I mean it pains me to see how most of this world is just apathetic when it comes to these poisonous vaccine concerns(as well as not seeing all the poisons in today's foods), and it pains me even more when I hear Jesus Christ's name get blasphemed so many times. And I was in this same boat years ago when I went down this same destructive path(ie-had no idea about the KJV, vaccines, poisons in foods, the evils of Churchianity, the list goes on).

Also, to clear up more with this vaccinations issue - again, it's not like we're trying to form an Alex Jones-activism movement, but at the very least, this is something you can warn your family members and friends in TRUTH AND LOVE, and you can throw in a witnessing opportunity by showing scripture over how this is evil(and hopefully point them to the Lord Jesus Christ). Didn't Timothy say he who doesn't take care of his household hath departed from the faith, and is worse than an infidel?

Heb 7:18  For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb 7:20  And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21  (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Heb 7:22  By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23  And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24  But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26  For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Is it just me, or is anyone else sickened when you hear in mainline Churchianity ciricles when they tell you how "Don't worry, it's God's will for you to get a good job where you can be a witness to others, and use your money", etc, etc.

Seriously - almost every day I'm ready articles of some kinds of record povertyness. Mainstream America may not realize this, but parts of this country has been hit by some pretty bad povertyness. And it's not just now, it's been for at least the last couple of years ago - you have families going from motel to motel trying to survive. There's tent cities across the country. Majority of companies now aren't even hiring anymore, while some of them are downsizing. The job market for college grads is incredibly bad(ie-at college job fairs, it's nothing more than a show-and-tell now).

So pretty much it's as if the focus is on ONESELF in Churchianity, and pretty much no mercy toward the rest of Americans that are living in tent cities, going from motel to motel, having their unemployment benefits being run out and still can't find anything, etc. I mean you look at the up-to-date annual budgets for any typical church in your area, and it's in the near-7 figures(my uncle's Lutheran Church in Ohio was at $500K in MAY - unsurprisingly, the pastor preached a "what you can do for your community" gospel).

Pro 21:25  The desire of the slothful killeth him; for his hands refuse to labour.
Pro 21:26  He coveteth greedily all the day long: but the righteous giveth and spareth not.

OK, look at this passage above - one(including myself) may look at verse 25(first one) and then just STOP right there saying, "Yeah, it means if we don't have 9-5 paying jobs, then we deserve our consequences". HOWEVER...look at the VERY NEXT verse...1) Verse 26 starts out with HE, which is OBVIOUSLY referring to the slothful described in the previous verse. So what does verse 26 talk about at the beginning? And linking it to the previous verse above?

Yeah, you got it! How can a lazy bum, who has the intention of coveting all these material things, just do NOTHING all day? You see where this is going? You would think he would be smart enough(or however you want to call it) to get his foot in somewhere to covet greedily? So yeah, in the NT, Jesus and the Apostles warn about coveteousness - so pretty much these people who covet filthy lucre(for example, the typical 501c3 Churchianity pastor) refuse to labour in the word of God, and therefore their slothfulness in labouring in the word of God will killeth them, as they will show their bad fruit.

Well, the workplace definitely is no place for a woman, especially if you have kids, but for men? i dunno it's getting harder to hope for a stay at home family, where mama AND dad teach and everyone helps farm, sell trades and depend on God. It makes me seriously annoyed when preachers say, God calls some firefighters, some nurses, some technicians, and some preachers. No you liberal, God calls every man to be a preacher in these last days and if they have skills in other things, fine. Right now He is begging for the young men to contend for the truth because you best believe 99% of the college preacher boys are out for the money or either are so ignorant of satan's devices they end up like every preacher around every church corner: "God loves you, now after church lets talk about that last tv show episode- blah blah blah". Like we need any more lukewarm churches! But that is what we are getting cuz no one will wake up. I know money is the root of all evil, that's why I believe College is evil. Because the only reason people go to college is to be succesful in this world, not get educated. Quote from Pensacola Christian College's vice president "Christians should outshine the world, they should be the best of their field." Side note: reprobate college. Educate yourself, there are enough elders to ask questions and books to read and Oh wait, and the Holy Spirit, we forgot about Him. Work is serving manna. Why spend all day working for a dollar bill then go out and buy a kitchen table. Why not spend all day building a kitchen table? Just an example, i guess.

Nice post B4Real.

But I ask, what do you base you understanding on about women?

The reason I ask is that there is no difference between man and woman in the body of Christ, we are all one, so why is there a difference between man and woman in the "work place"? I'm not convinved there is a difference, spiritually speaking, and spiritually is how we are to look at things.

As for the rest fo your observations, I agree.

I think though you meant "mammon", not manna!  ;) "Ye cannot serve God and mammon".

And I agree. God does call us to preach the gospel, to do the work of an evangalist, making full proof of our ministry. Preaching isn't a job, it's what Christians do as a result of their faith. It is our "holy calling".

Some may say that Jesus called only the Apostles away from their worldly jobs, and it was only them that Jesus called to do the work of an evangalist, but I contend that Jesus calls ALL believers the same way, to do the same thing.

"Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men." 1 Corinthians 7:23 (KJB)

Jesus Himself says we are not of the world, so why would we be unequally yoked together with the world?

The hard part I believe people have with this though is that they fear the unknown. They have been told they must be a productive citizen, paying taxes, pursuing a career, building a college fund for their children and retirement, etc. and that is how most think. The thought of walking away from the cars, coffee makers, and iPhones and their jobs and not looking back I suspect terrifies many, and like the ones that Jesus called initially, they have all kinds of excuses to not "drop their nets" and go with Jesus.

As pointed out, it is common for churchianity to put pressure on people to be burdened with the world, and they do so through the "Romans 13" doctrine claiming that we are subject to authorities, governments, etc. They want everybody else burdened like they are. They point out the verse about if you don't work you don't eat, but that's a misuse of the verse, as it's spiritual, not carnal. The "work" is as scripture calls it, "working with our hands that thing which is good".

Taking care of your household is primary, and I agree, it has changed, as far as what things around the house requires attention. So many things are manufactured now that people don't have to spend the time making chairs, and fixing roofs, and tending gardens and animals. They just go buy it at the store. But to do that, a person must participate in the worldly system, to earn the filthy lucre to pay for all those wordly items. God I believe does not answer prayers for a new iPod for xmas, or a pay raise at work! People are praying for the wrong things, and receive not...

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts." James 4:3 (KJB)

In one of the letters, Paul says that they laboured night and day that they weren't chargeable to anyone.(2 Thessalonians 3:8). THAT labour was not making tents, though it says that Paul stayed with a couple for a time who were of the same craft; tentmakers. What they laboured at was the ministry of spreading the gospel.

We who are called, are called to work in the ministry, not in the world, and who are called? Everybody.

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Timothy 2:19 (KJB)

See there is no need for Joel Osteen to tell you how to preach!

I'm not saying there is a difference between a man and woman in workplace, because there isn't supoosed to be a such thing as a woman in the workplace. "Women" and "workplace" cannot go together unless you believe in christian schools or daycares, etc. And married women without children still are supposed to be chaste keepers of the home. Unmarried women shouldn't be out there working where men can prey on them, but instead be preparing for their future home or dedicated their time to prayer and study of God's Word. I believe it's great to sell from home like Lydia, making things and selling them. This is how it is supposed to be if you have a christian father to support you until your godly husband does. Christian women were never in the workplace until around WWI and WWII. Then the public school system really expanded and women started cutting their hair off, promoting feminism, wearing pants, and using birth control. So women and workplace can't go together unless you are for one of the above.

Yeah, I don't think people realize the true draconian agendas behind feminism - no, it wasn't some "grassroots" movement...the NWO minions were quietly implementing their eugenics program through this movement(ie-Planned Parenthood). And not to mention too the bankers/Federal Reserve wanted to tax the "other" half of the marriage(meaning that women in the workforce meant more tax money to help aid the crippling national debt figure caused by the Federal Reserve). I believe it was my mom who commented to me that since the early 80's, the majority of women who entered the workforece were mothers who had NO CHOICE but to do so to help supplement income in their families(ie-since the 80's when the nation's economy really took a turn for the worst, which has lasted until the present day, this was pretty much why).

Ultimately, all this has done(whether mothers were forced into work or there were career-minded mothers) with the intent of breaking up the family - now the public schools were bearing most of the responsibility in raising children. After-school hours when mothers were still at work, kids were put in the hands of daycare, where potential pedifle employees were working at(I throw this in here b/c of all the rising pedifilia going on). And b/c mothers were tired when they came home from work, they just didn't have time to cook good, decently-healthy foods, but instead had to throw in a little fast-food here, a little junk-food there(which has tons of poisons in them). AND with the rise of cable television, MTV, and other abominations on the tube, kids are exposing themselves to them without parental supervision.

Overall - it disturbs me over the lack of discernment I hear from people - for example, I hear some BLAMING black people for all this mess b/c supposedly, they're the ones trying to scheme the government into getting all the welfare money. Here are the FACTS - the welfare, etc programs are ONLY 1-2% or so of the entire federal budget. Yeah, anyone can scheme from the welfare program all they want, but it won't make one iota affect against the national debt. Like said above, it was all by design when the draconian Federal Reserve was created in 1913 which allowed printing paper money unlimitedlessly.

Personally, I'm a Gen-Xer, so I'm still shaking off the cobwebs I got brainwashed with over the many agendas that were crammed in our brains. It was in the 80's(when I was a kid) when I kept hearing over and over again over how couples cohabitating without marriage together was OK b/c "you have to try the shoe on first". To be frank, the more I heard it, the more I came to accept it. No, I never really thought it was great, but again, it became the "norm" in my generation. And there's the whole MTV nonsense that I grew to have no problems with as well.

As for this thread - yeah, after WW1/WW2 like you said B4Real, things have SLOWLY started to unfold. Now it's come to a point where if you speak up and say the truth b/c the bible SAYS SO, you're branded as something. For example, if you said the truth about women in the workforce like you were saying, you will be BRANDED. I mean we're in a day and age where homes don't even have bibles in them anymore. Over 10 years ago, at least there were bibles in homes(albeit VERY dusted ones).

Hmm, okay, thanks for the reply. So that's an opinion, but what is the scriptural basis? What verses tell you these things?

Thought I would add something here too - when you guys, including myself, did studies in secular schools, were there times when your brains felt like they were GOING MAD when there were times the studying really had to be cranked up? Remember when Solomon said in Ecclesiastes over getting madness when exposing yourself to folly, no matter how much Godly wisdom you have. And then when it comes to come into the (secular)workforce, it just gets worse. You're exposing yourself to alot more of this worldly stuff(now in our present day, a growing number of workforces are helping the globalist system implement the MOB, whether they're aware of it or not), but it also doesn't help too you're surrounded by people of other faiths that you have to interact with alot.

At my dad's work, for example, one of the people he has to interact with from time to time is a Mormon. It was one Sunday a few weeks ago when we were eating in the cafeteria, he and his daughter came to join us to eat. Was friendly to him, but when it came to a point where he said he was a Mormon(coming back from his LDS church), and started getting into it a bit, I ended up just quietly leaving the table and watched a few minutes of the football game in the back. And then when we crossed paths with him again last Sun, I just couldn't get myself to shake his hand(especially on the Lord's day), but quietly stepped out the exit when my mom and dad were greeting him.

Anyhow, didn't mean to throw the 2nd paragraph in, but as you can see...yes, I understand we're lambs among wolves, and are IN the world - but shouldn't there at least be some balance, and a line where we should know not to cross? Anyways, as for the 1st paragraph, shouldn't we be DOERS of the word, and NOT ONLY hearers? When we are really entrenched in the pigpen like this(working these really career-minded jobs, going to secular schools, et al), won't it keep us from being doers of the word?

I tell you - there's been a BIG war against fundamentalism(Christianity, that is). No, it's not just the "of this world" that is warring against it, it's also modern day Churchianity. Seriously, whenever I try to tell them what scripture says and it's interpreted that way b/c scripture SAYS so, they're like "But you're just trying to twist it", etc, etc.

um what scripture do you need? "bear children" "be keepers of the home?" i mean it doesn't say "bear children and send them off to be educated by the world why you have a career outside of home" The virtuous woman was there for her family sunrise to sunset. Nothing should separate you from your children, because it does, it is Satan. The family is #1 first thing Satan is trying to destroy and career minded women are right on his agenda. Paul said care for the orphans. i call every child in school an orphan from 8-3 or whatever because their parent have dropped them off. Yea, im talking about christian school too. No one wants the job of teaching a child. Hand if off to someone else. Orphans is all they are.

Born Again2- yeah that's why i dropped out of secular college as a junior and went to christian college, but i found out i went just about mad there too, lol.

Yeah, college was frustrating at times, but I knew if I wanted to graduate, I had to deal with it. My professors weren't too bad, and the only one I even came close to challenging was my psychology/biology professor, a psych doctor from Ukraine. While she was a very nice person and by worldly standards very educated, I just couldn't buy her pscho babble though. I knew full well the class was as subjective as it gets, so I tended to push the topic a bit at times, just to make sure she was on her toes.

I mainly just focused on the course work, got my 3.37 gpa, and moved on. I did manage, I wasn't being very Christian then, to win a poker tourney while in school. Their "first annual". There was just over 30 in the game, and somehow I managed to beat them all. Won a fancy 1st Place certificate! What can I say, it was a geek school with a bunch of nerds. Many of them were so smart they thought they could play poker!

Well, any scripture the Spirit may have showed you to give you that impression. Personally, I don't see the scriptures as being that clear cut. However, I do lean towards what you say, that women really should be at home, but that's in the Lord. My wife, she's not Christian, and just doesn't see things the same way I do. She's a Medical Assistant and is serious about her career. She definately would need God to change her heart.

While we get an opinion from scripture, we really need to know what scriptures is the basis for our understanding. To just say women should be at home and pregnant will cause you some serious issues with women!

And I do believe that children should be taught at home, and not in some secular/"church" school. Some parents say they don't have time or skills, but that is no excuse. They just refuse to do what the parents should be doing.

"Train up a child in the way he should go..."

3   The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 
4   That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 
5   [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. 
Titus 2:3-5 (KJB)

Someone commented to me recently that God will find me a job soon, and I commented to him the sinking current economy where we're in our worst shape in decades, and his response was, "But God can work a miracle!".

Seriously, it's not like it's BAD per se, but here's the REALITY - it's not so much that companies just can't afford to hire anymore and are downsizing, but it's come to a point where the % of those collecting unemployment benefits have gone DOWN(as they've run out, can't find a place to continue them, and can't find other employment).

Yeah, it's REALLY this bad - no, we shouldn't fear as we should be putting our sole trust in the Lord, but at the same time we need to be WATCHING, and for that matter PRAYING for these people that are in dire needs without unemployment benefits now. Ultimately, it's as if the current state of Churchianity is pretty cold, me-me hearted. And frankly, I'm finding it disgusting.

You have the sitution in the eurozone, Greece, and Italy pretty much on its last legs now(it's only a matter of WHEN NOT if they will crash), but en yet, it seems like alot of people are pretty apathetic toward this.

We shouldn't fear when the global economy collapses(hence the dollar becoming worthless, chaos in the streets, etc), however, when it does, Churchianity is going to be in for a big shocker. Who knows where these hireling pastors will go once chaos hits.

Don't mean to call you out again on here, Kilika, but today, you mentioned in another thread over your experiences working at a gaming company years ago, which I found interesting, and which reminded me of this...

Personally, I'm a licensed CPA(although unemployed at the moment), however, when one thinks about it for a second...isn't it unconstitutional for individual's private property(their personal income) being taxed? Somehow, the IRS has completely gotten away with this, and NOONE has been able to win in court against them(ie-those tried for not paying taxes, and point it out in the constitition), although the lawyers represented the IRS just were never able to explain why it's not in the constitition.

For the record, no, I'm not saying Accountants who are saved will go to Hell b/c of this, nor am I trying to imply to not pay your taxes b/c of this(Jesus DID say to give unto Caesar what is Caesar's). However, if I was working in a Public Accounting Firm now, wouldn't I be aiding the IRS(when filing income taxes for others) in this thievery, and hence partaking in their sins?

And b/c we're heading into the xmas season now - look at all these private businesses that are taking advantage of this big opportunity every year over this pagan holiday celebration. Personally, I am thankful I don't own a business in a shopping mall(where floods come at this time every year). And then add on all the stress that comes with it(many, many customers, many more hours in coming up with new competitive marketing ideas, etc, etc), which is ultimately getting one away from the word of God.

Again, no, please don't think I'm trying to imply we just shouldn't work any job and be a bum on the street - but we have to be wise as serpents, and very discerning in these times we are living in. Satan will try to do everything to get you away from the word of God. We're going to have to be very careful and avoid the pitfalls, and follow the Spirit.

Unconstitutional really isn't a concern for believers when you think about it. We know already the whole world lies in wickedness, right? So we expect it to do evil things, unconstitutional things. It's the world!

And what is the root of all evil? The love of money.

So it's the love of money that drives the unbelieving world, so they look for all kinds of ways to make more money. It's what drives them, and they will do whatever it takes to get more money.

As for the Constitution and personal income taxes, some have won in court against the IRS, but there are few of them. One of them is a former tax enforcer named Bannister. Look him up. He's gotten under the skin of the IRS more than once.

Joe Bannister's site...
http://freedomabovefortune.com/ (http://freedomabovefortune.com/)


From what I understand, and there is several at PPF that are much better versed on this, but they generally say it's an issue with taxing a person's physical effort that can't be done. I forget the legal aspect. And they also say that the income tax was temporary, and was never made official. And they also claim the 16th Amendment wasn't ratified properly or something.

As a CPA, it might serve you well to get educated on the whole income tax issue. Read up on the cases that won, and lost. What you'll see is the cases that were lost, how they lost. Most of them argued the wrong argument in court, thus they lost. Add to that the feds always game the courts, and the judges have a habit of not allowing evidence in cases, effectively handcuffing the defendents.

Here's another person who beat the IRS, a very interesting case to see how the feds tried to game the court case.

Tom Cryer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Cryer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Cryer)

One must really pay attention though to what each case is alleging. Some lose because tehy were technically guilty of something that is indirectly related to taxes. Not all cases are what they appear to be in reality. Many times the case isn't about not paying their taxes, but not reporting income, thus not paying tax on that income.

Both the Bannister and Cryer cases are good examples of cases that get right to the question of the legality of income taxes. From what I remember, both times the IRS was requested to prove their assertions that income tax was not voluntary or something. They never did produce the evidence, so they lost the cases I think.

There was a case also of a man who was paying his employees with gold coins, Texas I think, and thus not taxing it. He ended up winning his case somehow too.

All of these wins the mainstream doesn't like discussing, and the feds surely don't, so they aren't right out in the open for people to run across. You kind of got to know already what your looking for.

So yea, pay attention to what the IRS is actually charging a person with. An IRS win isn't always what it seems too, but of course the feds always crow about a win regardless.

For those of you here that went through the college education system...were there times when hours of study on this secular curriculum just made you stark-raving-mad?

I was back in school(plus studying for an exam) for over the last year or so, and yes, I found myself getting in this mental state of mind.

Pt being that even though we need to put our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and let him guide us through by his word, when you nonetheless yoke yourself up with something secular by putting alot of time studying worldly materials, don't you still find yourself going mad inside? Yeah, thoughts would just pop up in my head that I would DARE never to think about when I'm not studying this secular material. It's as if it's brought me back into bondage.

Seriously, the time is drawing near, and you're going to have to make a choice whom ye will serve...either our Lord Jesus Christ who gives us the free gift of the Holy Spirit and eternal life if we believe on his name, or the wide path of the world which leads to destruction and ultimately eternal hell-fire. All the education system does is distract your minds from the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

By any chance, has anyone see that late 70's movie "Kramer vs. Kramer"?(with Dustin Hoffman and Meryl Streep) The movie centered around divorce(and conditioned the viewers to accept it ultimately).

However, there was another angle of the story that viewers seemed not to look at closely, although the subliminal messages of it probably got into everyone's heads - Hoffman played a career minded husband who was working his way up the ladder, and was ignoring his family by coming home really late at night(at the beginning of the movie, it showed a scene of him and his boss just laughing everything off and not really working at that late at night).

This was what pretty much lead to his wife leaving him quietly and unexpectedly(when he got home that night, he saw a note from his wife that she was fed up with what he was doing, and then left).

As the movie went along, Hoffman ended up having double responsibilities - his many hours a day work job and taking care of his 5 year old son. It got to the point where he had trouble handling both, that his boss had no choice but to fire him. And for that matter too it became incredibly tough for his son not having one parent around, and another parent giving him nothing more than the minimum amount of care(plus getting trouble in school to eating junk dinners to getting into an accident at the playground, etc).

Overall, deceptions galore throughout the movie - they painted Streep's character as one who was suffering from some kind of mental illness, and Hoffman's character was painted in a sympathetic light. It's as if you can feel the filmmaker's Hegelian Dialect approach to where at the end of the movie, you're like, "Maybe divorce isn't so bad after all..."(ie-Hoffman ended up getting main parental rights to the child, while Streep ended up giving in and "accepting her wrongs").

Ultimately, yeah, this movie was yet another conditioning to the masses to accept that these "career-minded" jobs are THE way to go(ie-also goes to show the rotten fruit of these "career-minded" businesses where they show no mercy when their employees have family problems like these). These movies can really be very subtle - the plots may be about one thing, but en yet they end up promoting messages about another very subtlely.

Bryan Denlinger preached a sermon about this very same subject this week - he said that he did so b/c someone requested to him, by any chance, was it anyone here that did so?

Anyhow, he did say "if ye can't work, ye can't eat" means literally just that(don't have a job, you can't eat). However, toward the end he made a good point how as Christians, we DO need to rest, and pointed out how Christian ministries would run themselves into the ground b/c they have this perception that they have to work and work and work constantly to get the gospel out, and ultimately burn themselves out.(the early chapters of Hebrews stresses this)

Again, like I said in another thread, I don't want to give away spoilers from his sermon so you can listen to it, but I have one question - when Paul was an Apostle, did he work another profession? Bryan pointed out the passages where Paul talked about how he laboured being that he himself worked another profession. However, whenever I read those passages, it seems like Paul was talking about labouring in the GOSPEL(preaching it, living by it, etc). Which was the case?

Okay, so this is why I asked if his sermon was in text yet, because i want to reply to it. Much easier and I think more in order to reply in text. This way both sides are readable. Anyway...(no, I did not contact him or request anything)

I have the same impression from reading those verses too BA. All a person has to do is a word search on work in the New Testament. The verses are clearly, to me, talking about the work of an evangalist, spreading the gospel. THAT is the work I believe scripture calls us all to do.

And if a person wants to say, just like they did in scripture, that if they don't have a job, what are they to do about food and clothing, etc, all I say is look at what Jesus told them.

Now, some say that was only directed at the disciples then, which in part is what Brian Denlinger does. I disagree. That text is for us too, BUT, what Brian didn't talk about was the difference between looking on the outward appearence, being carnal, versus being spiritual, and understanding the gospel spiritually, so as a result he's interpretating the verses carnally, literally. "God is a spirit..."

Jesus tells us to follow Him. Jesus didn't hold a job! He preached the gospel to His last breadth in the flesh. Thank you Jesus!

Brian also didn't address, I don't think, though I didn't listen to but 3/4 of it, the verses where it talks about...

17   But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. 
18   Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 
19   Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 
20   Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. 
21   Art thou called [being] a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use [it] rather. 
22   For he that is called in the Lord, [being] a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, [being] free, is Christ's servant. 
23   Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. 
24   Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God. 
1 Corinthians 7:17-24 (KJB)

What is that it says? "If thou mayest be made free, use it rather"? Really? That seems to discount Brian's position. "Use" is far from "required".

This is addressing those who come to this knowledge in scripture when they happen to be a servant, in effect, when they are employed. Some parts obviously don't apply as they are already a servant when they learn of the doctrine, so what do they do?

Scripture tells us they can either be content and work as to the Lord, not with eyeservice, OR they can leave the job and do the work of an evangalist, which is what we are ALL called to do. But nowhere do I see scripture telling us to enter bondage and servatude, to anybody but Jesus Christ, and with Christ, we are free, not in bondage, because we "walk by faith, and not by sight".

What people are overlooking is this; who said they must have a car, a mortgage, a bank account, schools, cell phones, cable tv, braces on the teeth, etc? Who said that? MAN. Not God.

What part do they not understand about this...

"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:33 (KJB)

Paul is mentioned dwelling with tentmakers, because it says they were of the same craft...

1   After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; 
2   And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them. 
3   And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers. 
4   And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. 
5   And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews [that] Jesus [was] Christ. 
6   And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook [his] raiment, and said unto them, Your blood [be] upon your own heads; I [am] clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles. 
7   And he departed thence, and entered into a certain [man's] house, named Justus, [one] that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
Acts 18:1-7 (KJB)

Now what people need to do is pay attention to what Paul does. It does say they were of the same crafy, and that is the reason given for him staying with them. What it was is that the couple are tentmakers, and since Paul knew tentmaking, he stayed with them and helped them with their work. But later we see Paul leaves over a dispute. So did Paul quit his job? Nope, I don't think so. I believe he was simply helping a brother and sister in his journey, who happen to be tentmakers. But he moved on. Outside of this mention, I don't any other reference to Paul working a job of any type once a disciple, other than the work of the ministry.

The real work that if you don't do, you won't eat, is following the Word. Literally taking in the Bread of Life. Our daily bread. THAT is what we eat and drink and are clothed with; the Word of God.

While a person is "in the world", yes, they must do something to survive in that world because they are living by the law then, and not faith. Just look to the Old Testament for guidelines how to be a servant to another man.

Personally I believe "the just shall live by faith"...

"But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry." 2 Timothy 4:5 (KJB)

So is Brian going to say that verse is only Paul talking to Timothy, but doesn't apply to the rest of us? To be consistant, it seems as though that is what he would have to say.

25   But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. 
26   If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain. 
27   Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world. 
James 1:25-27 (KJB)

Good point - in alot of Bryan's previous sermons, sometimes he ends up downplaying the first 4 NT gospels(Matthew - John) b/c he thinks Jesus was talking to the Jews(and their customs) in alot of those passages, which was before his death and resurrection. Alot of what he says comes off as sound, however, if I have to nitpick Bryan, it's that sometimes he can downplay just a tad bit those first 4 gospels(b/c he thinks they mostly talk about what went on BEFORE Jesus's death and resurrection, and therefore are talking to a different audience, the Jews).

Personally, I don't agree with this b/c if that's the case, then why not just throw these 4 gospels out completely, along with most of the OT as well?

Anyhow, yeah, that's what I was thinking as well - no, it's not like we have to just sit around and do nothing(yes, I myself am unemployed, largely due to the horrendous job market), but nonetheless the bible is there for us to have a relationship with Jesus Christ through his word. It's not like it's some New Age "life principles" book like Churchianity ends up interpreting it as.

If anyone else has thoughts on Bryan's sermon, please post it here. And also want to thank everyone for taking the time out to listen to this(when I requested it on another thread).

Thought I would share something else here - it was in the Fall of '09 when I sent in my resume to a job recruiting company, and it was one of those "first come, first served" kind of things(ie-where you really have to see the job postings as early as possible, and not wait any longer). And I was fortunate enough to get a call from one of the recruiters, and it really looked like they were going to offer me the Accountant position...UNTIL out of the blue, my cell phone just hung up, and had no idea how(didn't press any buttons). I tried to call back to that recruiter immediately, but could not reach her. The next day when I called back, the gentleman said it was given to someone else.

As mad as I was then...as time went on...I realized that it wasn't in the Lord's will. To be honest, if I had taken it...1) My old parents were in the process of cleaning up our house we lived in b/c the renters moved out, and it looked like we were going to sell it, and they really needed my help(as well as others), and 2) Even though I got started in the KJV for only weeks, there were alot of things I didn't understand, especially some of the basics, and if let's say I ended up getting that job, I might have gotten too busy and ended up abandoning what the Lord put in front of me(the TRUE Word of God KJV).

I'm glad this thread was made, it's been a great discussion thus far - to be honest, as much as I should be employed, I am very thankful that during these 2.5 years since the Lord put the KJV in front of me, he's continued to have me in this true word, growing in his grace every day. That "accident hang up" was NO coincidence, the Lord didn't want me there.

Just thought I would share this with everyone, to add to the discussion to this thread - for the most part, Paul in 2nd The 2 talks about the "falling away" in the end times. It's quite obvious that it's talking about modern day Churchianity - rarely are there any "church buildings" out there that are preaching sound doctrine. Maybe that's while they've falsely interpreted "if ye don't work, ye can't work" very badly, quite simply, they have hit everyone with guilt to support their massive overhead budgets(or just merely big ones). What if they preach to their pews that this verse is SPIRITUAL in meaning, meaning do the work of an evangelist? Then obviously, the pews will see the truth, they will no longer find the need to come to church buildings as they see the pastor isn't going out to the lost, and it would be better for them if they themselves do it without the help of a "church building", and then obviously their offering plates will get emptier...

Yeah, "church" isn't the same as it was over 100 years ago, it seems - you go inside a building, the smiles you see are nothing more than watching "Smiley Joel Osteen"(really, they look fake), you have pew members and deacons that dislike other members of the church, the pastor's sermon is without meat but very dry instead, and then afterward everyone goes home to resume whatever entertainment they want.

Anyhow, anyone that's reading this thread, if you're unemployed and can't find anything, please do NOT get down - if that "ye don't work, ye can't eat" passage REALLY did have a CARNAL meaning, then honestly the Lord would have put you in whatever job a long time ago. But instead, like with my experiences over the last 2.5 years - wanted me to get into his word and grow in his grace. Not saying we should not work and be bums on the street, but in all reality, like 95%+ of job places nowdays don't even allow anyone to mention Jesus's name.

Here's a passage Churchianity seems to completely ignore-

Mat 16:24  Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26  For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mat 16:27  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Something just occured to me when I was reading the 2nd chapter of Judges a minute ago...

Pretty much throughout the book of Judges, whenever the land of Israel turned their backs on God and served other gods of Cannaanites et al, wasn't that when God brought down his wrath?

Pt being that when we work at these secular, career-minded business, institutions, et al, wouldn't we be technically serving other pagan gods? The gods of money, prestige, pride, etc? Didn't Jesus say you can't serve 2 masters, God and mammon, otherwise you will hold to the one and hate the other?

No, for everyone that has a full time job that's reading this, please don't think I'm attacking you personally or anything, but just fwiw, when you think about how the big majority of today's businesses and institutions are like this...Again, like we said earlier, the workforce that has been in place here over the last 50-60 years is NOT the same as was pre-WW2.

I only gleamed through this(for now), however, just from the glance at it, it seems to make good points. Could anyone else look at this and tell me your thoughts?

http://www.silverstockreport.com/email/commandments.html

Paper Money Violates All Ten Commandments
Silver Stock Report
by Jason Hommel, July 2,2006

This page can be read online at:
silverstockreport.com/email/commandments.html

1.  Paper money debt enslaves you to something other than God.
2.  Valuing paper money is an act of idolatry.
3.  "In God we trust" takes the Lord's name in vain.
4.  The sabbath debt forgiveness times are ignored.
5.  Lack of honest standards dishonors our parents.
6.  Paper money has funded mass murder; two world wars.
7.  Lenders, usurers, are committing spiritual adultery.
8.  Paper money and banking is institutionalized theft.
9.  Paper money requires a mountain of false testimony.
10.  Paper money is supported by greed and covetousness.

Explanations for each of the 10 in link above

Just one little hitch...we are no longer under the 10 commandments or the 600+ other commandments, so #4 is definately irrelevant.

Paper money can buy a Large Print Leather English Authorized King James Bible for a lost soul!

Possible investment return 1day-99years. Interest if willing to read the print and conditions. This investment will last an eternal life time!

The Original Ten Commandments were written by God on stone. The make much more sense. Paper money at the time - useless.

Also, another thing...

Speaking of "but uf thou mayest be made free", shouldn't there be at least some rest for Christians? I agree we need to preach the word and be instant in season, however, shouldn't there be some time of rest?

One reason why I bring this up is b/c while I agree we need to have some scripture memorized, it's not like we have to memorize the whole bible or anything(ie-1 verse per week, or even per month is suffice). For example, in my mom's women's bible study class, they're doing a Beth Moore studies, and Moore says they need to memorize the ENTIRE book of James.

Personally, James is on the top of my list in the NT(outside of the first 4 gospels), however, isn't this asking a BIT too much to memorize every little word of an entire book? We sure wouldn't be "free" if God required us to do so. Why not just merely read verses in it every time we don't feel well? That's good enough for me!

No, don't want to get into a Beth Moore discussion here, but just to say briefly - no, I don't think Moore is a NWO-wolf plant, HOWEVER, I do think there was a time she bore good fruit, until she slowly allowed herself to be put up on a pedestial by the dark forces, and ultimately got deceived by alot of false teachings out there.

I think those are excellent points BA. That to me is "think on these things". THese are the things I believe God wants us to dwell on, what God wants us to and how to think, and how to act. All of this "thinking" to me is talking to God. We in our thoughts are looking to God, praying to God, having a conversation with our God, and it is the Spirit within us that makes intercesion with "groanings which cannot be uttered" to God for us while we are in the flesh...

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." Romans 8:26 (KJB)

Yet again, we see that it is God that does the work for us. Thank you Jesus.

We can't even pray correctly that God can understand, so He gave us His Spirit to do for it for us. Once we put on "incorruption" and we are changed, then we will be perfected, and no longer have the need for the Spirit to make intercession for us, as we will be like He is.

I personally believe that the Spirit in us, being born-again, is our rest. It is finished. The victory is Jesus' already. That said, we do have that time when evil is put down once and for all, then we will have that final peace and rest for eternity. So, spiritually, yes, we have a rest, but carnally, in the flesh? I don't believe there is a "day of rest" as in observing the levitical sabbath. But then scripture says that each of us must be fully persuaded in our own minds what we observe in that respect. So I see that we have a liberty in Christ, to observe a day out of the week as rest if we choose, but what do you do when your neighbor compells you to go? Would you not be compelled to go with them twain, even though it is your chosen day of rest? This is where the council leads us to "take no thought...", as far as a day of rest goes.

Besides, our Lord tells us that He will not burden us with anything more than we are able to handle. Thank you Jesus.

"Let not your heart be troubled..."

^^^

Whenever I read that passage, I think of the pagan xmas customs the RCC deceived the world(and church) with.

However, at the same time, doesn't anyone think about the modern day CHURCH BUILDING being built all over the place today in regards to this passage? As we've discussed here, the church is merely the local body of believers going out to preach to the lost, and NOT these "church buildings" paved with parking spaces et al.

*sigh* it's as if the modern day church has shamelessly buddied with the heathen - no wonder why there's so much doctrines of bondage in it.(ie-one person commented to me how a pastor in the metroplex "built his big church with his OWN hands")

With his OWN hands? Hhhhmmm...this person definitely should read this Jeremiah passage above.

It's as if the main focus for a Christian now is to go out, make money, so he or she can give at least 10% to the church(or even more if there's a surplus) so that money can go out to the missions et al, and all the blessings can come upon you.(b/c supposedly all that money went out ended up witnessing alot of people to Christ)

http://russkellyphd.blogspot.com/2010/05/tithing-and-justification-by-faith.html

Tithing and Justification by Faith
There is a connection between the doctrine of justification by faith and tithing.

True biblical holy tithes were always only food (Mal 3:10-11) from inside God’s holy land of Israel which God Himself had miraculously increased. Tithes could not come from what man increased or from outside Israel. Not even Jesus, Peter and Paul qualified as tithers.

Imputed righteousness is all of Christ and none of us. It is called justification by faith. Dikaiosunee is the Greek word for both righteousness and justification. If the tithe came from what man’s skill and hands produced, then man could always remind God that HE had produced the tithe and God owed him a blessing.

I just saw this article on Yahoo-

http://education.yahoo.net/articles/careers_for_shy_people_2.htm?kid=1KWO3

Not only do they list the top 5 jobs (supposedly)for "shy" people, but they list the average salaries for them as well. Just from my experiences, an Accountant does NOT average $68,000, according to the US Labor Dpt(at least not the fresh-out-of-college entry level types). For the most part, if you're an Accountant, you should be thrilled to start out $30K-$40K. And for that matter too, an Actuary doesn't average nearly $100K.

Sometimes, it amazes me how people(and the government for that matter) lie through their teeth. When a young college student(or a young adult for that matter) starts reading these articles, they're only going to get puffed up with alot of pseudo-hope.

And for that matter too, an Accountant's job requires alot of interaction with people(whether you're in Public Accounting or in Industry). So you might as well scratch this off of the "shy" list. And to throw this out there too - 99% of jobs out there require interaction with people.(seriously, this is just stupid saying there's jobs for "shy people")

Doesn't witnessing the gospel require interaction with people as well? Didn't Jesus say if you deny him before men, then he'll deny you at his coming before the angels in heaven? Just saying...

Thought I would post this article here I found on yahoo(posted this in another forum here)...

Everything this article says pretty much sums it all what's been going on in very recent years - I don't know if these people are Christians, but nonetheless it's not like they're lazy bums living lives off begging on the streets. Looks like they seem to be hard-working individuals who are now going through some really tough times.

Yeah, sometimes, when we examine scripture, we really need the Holy Spirit to guide us and let scripture interpret scripture line by line, precept upon precept. Yes, truth can offend, but truth being misinterpreted can really hurt our witness toward lost souls in this world...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/goodbye--middle-class.html

Goodbye, Middle Class

Fri, Feb 3, 2012 1:28 PM EST

Nearly one in two Americans is now living on the lower end of the income scale, according to the Census Bureau. For a family of four that's less than $45,000 a year. These are three families who are falling out of the middle class.

One bedroom for a family of five

Previous pay: $110,000
Current pay: None
Where they live: Staying as guests in a friend's home

Talia Mobley and her husband Adam have been out of work for more than two years. Adam was a lead technician for Comcast and says, "I had it made." Talia worked in customer service.

Collectively, they have sent out 500 resumes but have not gotten one job offer.

Talia went back to school to retrain as a Certified Medical Assistant because she heard health care is where the jobs are. But she still hasn't been able to find work.

Fifty percent of the unemployed in New Jersey have been out of work for more than six months, and it's a similar story in Florida, Illinois and Nevada, according to the Brookings Institute.

From six figures to the poverty line

Previous pay: $130,000
Current pay: $15,000
Where they live: Their foreclosed home, awaiting eviction

This family of 5 represents what it can look like when the bottom falls out of the middle class.

They live in Morris County, N.J., where the median household income is $91,403.

Unwilling to show their faces, they still wanted to share their story. The father used to make over $100,000. But then his 6-figure, telecom job of 20 years went to India.

They haven't paid their mortgage since 2009 and wake up each morning wondering if today will be the day they are evicted.

Not living in poverty but not making it

Previous pay: $40,000 to $50,000
Current pay: $12/hour
Where they live: Family shelter

A mother and her three children in Bergen County, N.J., now call a shelter home. Too ashamed to show their faces, the mother says, "I never thought in a million years I'd be at this point."

But when she lost her customer service job, she could no longer pay the rent in a county where the median household income is $77,000.

The manager of the shelter sees more and more families like this -- stuck in the middle. Not living in poverty but not making it either.

Since we first met her, the mother has been re-hired by her previous employer working in customer service, but only part time.

FYI, this is on page 28 of Fritz Springmeyer's book "Be Wise as Serpents"(PDFs found online)...

AMERICA'S MINDLESS FASCINATIONS

The conspiracy has succeeded in turning people from watching reality to a mindless fascination for a comic strip-video game-sitcom life of unreality. You are to do your job for the system, then go home and not think; or if you want to think, tune into one of their talk shows or read one of their newspapers. Perhaps no one has ever shown you the names of who exactly controls big business and the media. The power in this nation is controlled by an elite. That can be documented. And it can be shown what they intend for us.

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Interesting...no, I don't think Springmeyer was implying that working in this country is bad, per se, but nonetheless it popped up in my head how it seems like a big growing % of work forces(both public and private) are playing right into the hands "of the system".

BTW - don't be surprised if the antichrist says "if you don't work, you can't eat" as part of trying to convince the world to take the mark.

A couple of things...

1) From my experiences as an Accountant, it seems like the anxieties with tax returns are highest among churchgoers, why? Obviously, with all the money they put in the offering plates, they're the ones expecting the biggest tax refunds. It's not very often when I crossed paths with a non-churchgoer that would give alot of money, let's say, to the Red Cross.

Yeah, as believers in the Son of God, we are MADE FREE, but offering plates and the 501c3 status that comes with it has really brought in alot of baggage, as you can see. It seemed like the non-churchgoers who ended up owing to the IRS seemed to be in care-free moods, just as long as their returns got out by April 15th.

2) Are there many places of employment nowdays where you can share your faith to others? Not saying there isn't but nonetheless it seems like the more you're forced to zip your lips, the more you start to develop of subconscious attitude of denying Christ.

Personally, in the place of employment I worked in 4 years ago, it wasn't Christian, however, a week before I got layed off, I was in the lunchroom with everyone else on a Friday, and all of a sudden the conversation started turning into end times bible prophecy stuff(and they started asking me questions). It was rather odd, b/c like said, none of them were Christians, and the topic of end times just came out of the blue. It was a GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY to witness, but to be honest, I was just a mere "church goer" and wasn't grounded in the truth(nor aware of all the deceptions going on). Ultimately, always be ready to give an answer, b/c you never know when it'll just pop up out of nowhere.

Eph 6:5  Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
Eph 6:6  Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;


When you look at this passage - yeah, it says that to be obedient to your masters(your bosses, employers, or whomeover you want to call them), but look WHAT ELSE it says...as servants of CHRIST, as UNTO CHRIST, doing the will of GOD FROM THE HEART.

OK, let's say your boss goes on a bit of a tirade for a week and starts hurling insults at you, even though you did good work. Doesn't scripture say that we should suffer for doing good? So pretty much this passage would apply here.

HOWEVER, OTOH, let's say your boss/employer tells you that in order for the company to be successful, it would be "ok to toe the line and cheat a little", and that "we need to work Sundays as well" - would this be "doing the will of God from the heart"? NO! And for that matter too, what if you're in a workplace that is very limited in terms of sharing your faith with others? No, of course it's not being servants of Christ!

And as for "having a career"? Isn't this a CHOICE? Shouldn't we just be CONTENT with what we have(even if it means to stay at the bottom of the ladder throughout your working life), as "But godliness with contentment is great gain"?

Wondering what everyone else thinks of this particular passage.

could you expand on that please?

Also, Jesus himself want like this single carpenter that made like cups. He was what we would call a "contractor" today. Big business. I doubt he was poor, probably well off. Read the Real Jesus by Ted Garner, very old book

Isn't Sundays when Christians have their rest, worship, and fellowship, b/c this is the day when Jesus resurrected? Isn't this also the day the Apostles got together to do just this as well?

Will check out the book when I get the chance - what did Jesus mean when he said he has no place to lay his head(whereas foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests)?

They met on the first day of the week, this is true, yet it wasnt a holy day and it was never considdered the Sabbath.

The Lord gave up his business and everything else when his ministry started. Its speculated that the marriage feast that starts the Lords ministry was for his last sister, that after Joespehs death Jesus became head of the home and had to marry off his sisters. If so that party was quite extravagent and all would have been paid by Jesus as he was satnding in place of Joseph, for her dowery. It would have cost quite a bit, and as we can see that Jesus didnt have anything afterward, so much so that he entrusted his mom to the care of John. just saying...

No, scripture says that every man needs to be fully persuaded in his own mind as to what he celebrates, etc. One can observe the sabbath every day if they want. We have no such customs. We have liberty in Christ that allows us to worship with freedom, not restrictions to a given day.

However, if you decide you want to observe the Sabbath, as defined in Judaism, go for it. Whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Keep in mind that is your choice only. It does not apply to any other person, unless they decide for themselves that they want to observe as you. It's all about choice, not law and requirements.

We don't earn points or a better salvation by observing rituals and customs. That's an act of the flesh, and profits us nothing. We "earn" rewards as a result of God seeing us do good works as moved by the Spirit, not our own agenda. With the Spirit, we will do good works, and we will have our rewards as a result of our faith. Thank you Jesus!

Just to shift the discussion(but NOT the topic) for a bit...

When I read one of Franklin Graham's books awhile back(Yes, he's Billy's son), every once in awhile he would point out how "this is a sin, that's a sin". For example, he said how discouragement is a sin.

Yes, this is all but true, but what is WRONG with this picture? Does Franklin remember the times Peter got discouraged, in particular after he regretted denying Jesus 3 times? Didn't Jesus nonetheless tell him afterwards "Feed my sheep"? Or how about David in the wilderness when he thought he was feeling hopeless at one time? Didn't God come to his rescue?

Ultimately, one of the agendas of these wolves is obviously to deceive everyone so they can come back in bondage(which Paul warned about in Galatians). No, Franklin Graham et al don't exactly blatantly preach how we should be under the law, however they're doing things VERY subtlely, like mentioned above - so pretty much they're saying things to try to make you feel very guilty and pitiful, and ultimately to try to plant the seeds to turn your hearts away from our blessed hope in Jesus Christ, which is eternal life. So basically the message F. Graham was trying to get out is that "You're a bad person if you feel discouraged". Obviously, this man has no idea who Apostle Peter is.

Stick to the word and faith in Jesus Christ ALONE, and ye mayest be made free! :)

Has anyone here read Randall Baer's "Inside the New Age Nightmare"? He said in it how New Age ideologies have infiltrated just about every aspect of society - business, education, relgious/private/public institutions, etc. And when this book was written, it was written back in the *1980's*. So if New Age ideologies et al infiltrated a wide range of business sectors back then, just imagine how bad it is NOW.

Yeah, seriously, today's Churchianity really needs to evaluate the "if ye don't work, ye can't eat" passage again. Getting involved in the New Age in *ANY* way is really serious, and produces serious consequences. Jesus says you can't serve 2 masters, and being involved with the New Age in any way is doing JUST THAT. But en yet alot of the business sectors in this country and world are doing so.(No, I'm not saying every business sector and institution is, FWIW)

Hey guys, I really need your prayers on this...

I just got a call from one of the job placement services, and the guy on the phone told me that he wants to meet with me tomorrow, and from there hopefully place me in a full time job in the metroplex.

The reason why I'm asking is b/c I've been reading books exposing the New Age Movement, and both Randall Baer and Constance Cumbey have warned how New Age ideologies, teachings, and deceptions have really spread everywhere, INCLUDING alot of the workforces in this country. So you just never know what kind of questions this job recuiter will ask me, what kind of situations he may want to put me in, etc.

I mean when I was reading Baer's and Cumbey's books, they were in the *1980's* - yah, the way they documented everything in the New Age Movement, you thought they were writing about *in our present time*. So ultimately, if things in the NAM were really wretched then...again, fast-forward *20-30 years later*. :o

Again, today's "church" needs to reevaluate "if ye don't work, ye can't eat" - especially with all the New Age nonsense infiltrating workforces today.

Anyhow, we all go through some really trying times b/c the Lord wants to test us to see if we truely love him(if I said this wrong here, please correct me). So please everyone here, if anyone has any advice on how to handle certain things, what your experiences were with all this, and of course your prayers are very welcome as well.

That's all fine and dandy what those authors say, but what does scriptures say? "Examine yourselves..."

Oh no - what I meant(sorry, I know I can draw out my posts) is that what are the kinds of things, especially nowdays, that today's workforce will subtlely try to pull on their employees to do? Not that I'm worried or anything, but at the same time it concerns me that something can get thrown at me that can easily yoke me unawares.

It's not just those 2 authors I brought up, but overall, it's the ENTIRE New Age Movement I've been studying on recently, and how pretty much I am somewhat surprised by how New Age ideologies have spread all over the place. The NAM is widely networked, but they do NOT have a "heirarchy" per se. So pretty much there are alot of people or "leaders" per se out there promoting the New Age, but at the same time they may not have idea what they're really doing.

Anyhow, we're supposed to be wise as serpents - I know a few of you here gave your testimonies over former places you worked at, and why you guys left as well(others on PPF talked about their testimonies on this as well).

Sure, like those group pep rallys that Walmart does every morning. Yeah, those group team building things creep me out to be honest it's so phoney and shallow.

Anyhow, here are some passages with the word "eat" in them...read and and listen to what the SPIRIT has to say to you...

Mat_6:25  Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Mat_6:31  Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Mat 14:14  And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.
Mat 14:15  And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals.
Mat 14:16  But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat.
Mat 14:17  And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes.
Mat 14:18  He said, Bring them hither to me.
Mat 14:19  And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
Mat 14:20  And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.
 they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes.

Mat 15:15  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat 15:16  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17  Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Mat 15:32  Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way.

Mat_26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Mar 2:16  And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
Mar 2:17  When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luk_12:29  And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.

Luk 15:21  And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Luk 15:22  But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luk 15:23  And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24  For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 22:10  And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
Luk 22:11  And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Luk 22:12  And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.

Joh 4:30  Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.
Joh 4:31  In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.
Joh 4:32  But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
Joh 4:33  Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
Joh 4:34  Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 6:47  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48  I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49  Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50  This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51  I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

1Co_5:11  But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1Co_10:7  Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

1Co 10:27  If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1Co 10:28  But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
1Co 10:29  Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
1Co 10:30  For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
1Co 10:31  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

1Co 11:24  And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25  After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26  For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27  Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co_11:28  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

Jas_5:3  Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Rev_2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev_2:20  Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Rev_17:16  And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the ****, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Rev_19:18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

I’m pretty sure that’s the answer right there. I also think that this will be more of a challenge for professing believers as time goes on.

Which Vocations Should Be Off Limits to Christians?

The Reformation doctrine of vocation teaches that even seemingly secular jobs and earthly relationships are spheres where God assigns Christians to live out their faith. But are there some lines of work that Christians should avoid?

The early church required new members to give up their occupations as gladiators or actors. Whether Christians should enter military service has been controversial at several points in church history. So has holding political or judicial offices. Recently, New York Times columnist David Brooks suggested that Christians should not become professional athletes. He observed that "the moral ethos of sport"---which centers on pride---"is in tension with the moral ethos of faith," which requires humility.

So what guidance can we find from the doctrine of vocation? There is more to that teaching than most people realize, so let's review some of its more salient points. (To study this in more depth, you can check out my book God at Work: Your Christian Vocation in All of Life and follow the Bible references and footnotes. Also see my new book Family Vocation: God's Calling in Marriage, Parenting, and Childhood for yet more facets of this critical teaching for how Christians can live out faith in the world and in their everyday relationships.)
God Never Calls Us to Sin

"Vocation" is simply the Latinate word for "calling." The doctrine of vocation means that God assigns us to a certain life---with its particular talents, tasks, responsibilities, and relationships---and then calls us to that assignment (1 Corinthians 7:17). God never calls us to sin. All callings, or vocations, from God are thus valid places to serve. So strictly speaking there are no unlawful vocations; the question should actually be whether or not a particular way of making a living is a vocation at all.

God himself works through human vocations in providential care as he governs the world. He provides daily bread through farmers and bakers. He protects us through lawful magistrates. He heals us by means of physicians, nurses, and pharmacists. He creates new life through mothers and fathers. So we can ask whether or not God extends blessings through a particular line of work.

The purpose of every vocation, in all of the different spheres in which our multiple vocations occur---the family, the workplace, the culture, and the church---is to love and serve our neighbors. Loving God and loving our neighbors sums up our purpose (Matthew 22:36-40). Having been reconciled to God through Christ, we are then sent by God into the world to love and serve him by loving and serving our neighbors. This happens in vocation. So we can ask of every kind of work we doing, "Am I loving and serving my neighbor, or am I exploiting and tempting him?"

Obviously, those who make their living by robbery are not loving their neighbors. Heroin dealers, hit men, con artists, and other criminals are hurting their neighbors and have no calling from God to do so.

But there are some legal professions that also involve harming their neighbors instead of loving and serving them. An abortionist kills his small neighbor in the womb. An internet pornographer is abusing the neighbors he is exploiting sexually and, moreover, causing the neighbors who are his customers to sin.
Can Soldiers Be Saved?

Other occupations may not be so cut and dry.

We are told not only to love our neighbors but to love our enemies, but the work of a soldier is to kill his enemy. So should Christians not enlist in the military? Luther took up this question in an important treatise, Whether Soldiers Too Can Be Saved. The short answer he gives is yes. Though as individual Christians we must not kill, God certainly has the right to take human life. And God works through the governing authorities, which according to Romans 13 are his agents in restraining and punishing evil so that a society of fallen human beings is possible. Those agents specially include those vocations that "bear the sword" (Romans 13:4). Luther concludes that soldiers in a Romans 13 chain of command are authorized by their calling to love and serve their fellow citizens by defending them, even when that means killing the enemy. Soldiers, as Christians, should indeed love those enemies---not hate them, hold malice against them, or mistreat captives or civilians---but they have an authorization to do what soldiers have to do.

This point must not be missed: vocation comes with an authorization, so that someone within that vocation may do things someone outside it may not. Sexual intercourse is a sin outside the vocations of marriage, but a good work within those vocations of husband and wife. Physicians can do things to someone else's body---whether see a patient naked or cut the patient open---that others should not.
Pleasure Through Vocation

Still, opinions will vary about other professions. One of the Lutheran confessions in dealing with the doctrine of vocation specifically condemns the notion "That a Christian cannot with a good conscience be an inn-keeper, merchant, or maker of weapons" (Formula of Concord XII). A gunsmith can love and serve his neighbors with his craft. A merchant should not cheat his neighbors or give them bad merchandise, but rather love and serve them by providing goods and services that meet the neighbor's needs. Inn-keepers were more controversial, since the inns of the day were usually also taverns, places of drinking and revelry. Some Christians may think that selling alcohol or running a nightclub might not be a valid vocation. We Lutherans are confessionally bound and personally inclined to disagree.

This brings up the entertainment industry, which spans actors disapproved by the early church through professional athletes disapproved by David Brooks. It seems that providing pleasure is a way of loving and serving people. To be sure, there are sinful pleasures. But why shouldn't God, who adorned his creation so beautifully and has given us a joy in other people that is in fact akin to love, create pleasure through vocation?

On the analogy of God giving us our daily bread through the vocation of farmers and creating new life through the vocation of parents, we can say that God creates works of beauty and meaning through the vocation of artists. Vocation is a function of the talent, abilities, interests, and opportunities that God gives to each individual. This applies to scientists and craftsmen, and it surely applies to those who have the talent to make music, to draw, to devise stories, and (yes) to act. (See God's gifts for artists in Exodus 35:30-36:2, a key biblical passage on vocation.)

Athletes too have their talents and abilities from the hand of God. Of course it is legitimate to use them. And they can use those gifts in bringing pleasure to those of us who marvel at them, just as musicians play for an audience and so bless them, and just as the hundreds of people listed in the credits of a motion picture can in a powerful film bless those of us in the audience.
Profiting from Sin

Again, we need to make distinctions. A casino blackjack dealer might be considered part of the "entertainment industry," bringing a jolt of pleasure and excitement to her customers, but her main goal is not to love and serve them but to win their money. She is also profiting from the sins of her neighbors. A Christian blackjack dealer may argue that she is giving her customers the entertainment of a game of chance in exchange for what she takes from them. Still, this job may be morally problematic. A defensive lineman may execute a good hit on the opposing quarterback---that is the nature of his job---but to injure the quarterback on purpose, as in the current NFL bounty scandal, is clearly to sin in one's vocation.

Vocations, in general, must carry out their proper work and fulfill their proper purpose. A business owner must make a profit; a professional athlete must help his team win. To say these involve selfishness and pride, making them off limits to Christians, confuses different realms. The earthly laws of economics depend on participants following their rational self-interest; but the Christian, while doing so, can also turn the same productive labor into an expression of love and service. The athlete can trounce his opponent and joy in the victory while still being a selfless teammate who honors those on the other side.
Not Equal

Yet here is an irony. Before God all vocations are equal. But that is not so in the world. Often the highest-paying and the highest-status jobs do less for the neighbor than do jobs that the world tends to look down upon. I am ready to concede that the professional athlete and the movie star have legitimate vocations in giving brief moments of pleasure to millions of people. But the love and service rendered by the men who pick up our garbage every week or the women who clean up our hotel rooms is far more immediate and far more important.

The wealthy, esteemed, and honored often have a more problematic vocation than do the poorer folks who, in a kind of labor the Bible especially honors, work with their hands (1 Thessalonians 4:11). The "idle rich"---those with inherited wealth who did nothing to earn it and just spent it all on themselves---inspired many rants from the Puritans. Not that the Puritans opposed wealth---many of them were busy pioneering capitalism---but in their minds wealth needs to be productive. Usury, by which was meant lending money at interest, was traditionally seen as unchristian, multiplying one's wealth by taking advantage of a neighbor's need. Today's economy, of course, depends on a robust financial system in which lending and investment are very productive indeed, building homes and new businesses and doing great social good. Bankers, financiers, and venture capitalists are indeed legitimate vocations from God.

And yet, what are we to say of the derivative trader, who sits in front of his computer manipulating the finance system without adding goods or services to the collective good? Does he even have a neighbor, since he works in isolation without the slightest interaction with the people whose mortgages he is trading or the companies whose stock he is manipulating? I'm not sure---I'm not even sure what a derivative is!---but his work is probably more problematic vocationally than that of the factory worker or the retail clerk or the food service worker.

Since we do not, strictly speaking, choose our vocations but are called to them, they are not completely within our control; rather, God providentially places us in our vocations. So a blackjack dealer who becomes a Christian may well be stuck in that position at least for a time with no other prospects of employment to support her more family (probably her most important vocation), and God may lay upon her the cross of finding a way to live out her faith even in the casino. The same may be true of the derivative trader.

So are some occupations off-limits for Christians? No doubt, but it is not always clear what they are. Vocations are unique---that is to say, God calls and equips individuals in distinct and highly particular ways---so they may resist hard and fast and universally applicable rules and moralistic dictates. Since vocation is about God's work as well as human work, it has to do not just with the law but with the gospel; since vocation is where the Christian life is to be led, it will be an expression of Christian freedom.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/03/22/which-vocations-should-be-off-limits-to-christians/

I have been convicted that to join the military as a Christian knowing that your job is to kill people or be part of that act is wrong. If a Christian does join the military dont they know that the government owns them as a soldier? You cant make your own decisions, you must do evil or else!! The Christian becomes a slave to the Government in bondage, yoking with unbelievers and the Christian is expected to kill the enemy, murder is sin. Plus how would a Christian soldier feel about getting microchipped, tainted DNA, serious lifelong injuries? I would really use some wisdom here, we have to make wise choices in the time we live in, the world is going to get more wicked and wicked, even the Lord Jesus said that we are to be wise as serpents.

If a soldier becomes a Christian in the military then Praise the Lord!! But wouldn't the Christian then want to serve the Lord Jesus instead? And that will probably be first to resign from the military.

We are to be soldiers for Jesus, not Caesar. End of story. Born-again Christians should not seek service with Caesar, military or not. Consider what is more edifying if nothing else. To live by the law under Casear, or free from the law with Jesus?

"My sons, be not now negligent: for the LORD hath chosen you to stand before him, to serve him, and that ye should minister unto him, and burn incense." 2 Chronicles 29:11 (KJB)

"Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ." 2 Timothy 2:3 (KJB)

9   But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 
10   Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 
11 ¶ Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; 
12   Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1 Peter 2:9-12 (KJB)

So, it's kind of hard to hang out in the world workplace when scripture says this...

8   For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 
9   (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 
10   Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 
11   And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them]. 
12   For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Ephesians 5:8-12 (KJB)

Rom 4:14  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

When the following is considered, it's obvious believers won't make it in the worldly job market! CEO's or politicians? No way. The world knows we are not of them, and we aren't welcome in their world quite frankly. It also hleps to explain why those worldly "doors closed" at various times in life more than they opened, because the world hates us...

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." John 15:19 (KJB)

Another thing to consider - yes, we shouldn't be "busybodies", however, just look at Churchianity today...in 99% of those churches, there definitely are members in there that are lacking financially, but why doesn't the church help them? Quite simply, alot of the "offering" money goes into the pastors's salaries/401Ks, and other overhead like adding rooms/small buildings, buidling bigger buildings, and other activities that are pretty secular in nature.

The economy is in pretty rotten shape right now(and obviously won't get any better in light of yesterday's news), so isn't it pretty obvious that employement is getting much harder to come by? Look at all those college grads that are high in debt and can't find anything.

Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42  And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43  And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44  And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45  And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46  And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Anyone here subscribe to Newsweek? My parents do, and there's an article in it in the current issue titled "Screwed Generation", about the 18-35 demographics who feel they have no hope b/c of it being incredibly hard to find employment + the mounting debt from their college educations. At the same time, they are beginning to realize, it seems that they won't achieve this "American Dream" that their parents have provided for them. Over 1/2 of them don't have the "college educated" job that they were hoping for, while the rest of them that do have these jobs just feel hopeless b/c they won't be able to buy things they grew up in for years like nice homes. And for that matter too a big % of them have admitted they are putting off marrying and having kids b/c of their limited incomes.

A very good article(even though it didn't have a Christian point of view in it) - further it talked about how this same 18-35 demographics tend to stray away from alot of the "conservative" views. For example, they support redistribution of wealth, higher taxes, more help from the government, etc(as we all know, redistribution of wealth has been one of the big agendas of the NAM/NWO), as well as alot of the liberal social issues like supporting gay marriage.

So overall, just from what this Newsweek article talks about - while this young generation realizes what's going on around them, at the same time they are choosing to feel hopeless. Also, it's as if they've been conditioned to have this "submit to the government" attitude.

Again, we may have to re-consider what the "ye don't work, ye don't eat" passage Paul preached about.

Rev 13:11  And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12  And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18  Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.