End Times and Current Events

General Category => Wolves in Sheeps clothing => Topic started by: Psalm 51:17 on June 20, 2011, 05:00:20 pm



Title: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 20, 2011, 05:00:20 pm
Maybe slightly off-topic, however, very important...Please listen to this...did Pastor Hoggard just endorse unlimited subservance to Romans 13?

It is SURE sounding like it...please listen to this...

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=53011135937

http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=53011135937


Title: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 20, 2011, 05:25:49 pm
I'm 30 minutes into this - I can NOT believe what I'm hearing. He is NOW COMPLETELY contradicting EVERYTHING he's said on his many previous watchmen broadcasts!

Now he's saying that Presidents like Obama are higher powers appointed by God and the sword is given to these Presidents by God to do justice as Romans 13 says.

Huh?!? So how about all those Big Brother technology that Obama's allowing to implement(as well as our other recent Presidents)?? Is this part of the "sword" given to him by God to do good?? Or how about Ronald Reagan restoring diplomatic relations with the Vatican for the first time in 100 years?? I guess Reagan was "just NOT perfect" which is why he did this??

Hoggard also tried to tie Psalms 91(the God's protection passage) to Romans 13 - has Hoggard forgot about how Christians are getting arrested for street preaching, witnessing to Muslims, etc, in recent time?? And Hoggard even quoted "If the government shoves health care down our throats, then we should shove health care down others as well", and he also quoted that we need MORE laws b/c of the BAD people that are breaking it constantly. Huh?!? So the Capitol Hill corrupt officials that pass one draconian bill after another get a free pass??

Please everyone, listen to this sermon, at least 1/2 of it. The reason why this got my attention is b/c in Part 4 when Scott started talking about 501c3, he said how one of his listeners emailed him about this, so I wanted to verify this for myself.


Title: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on June 20, 2011, 05:51:31 pm
that doesn't sound good.  ???


Title: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 21, 2011, 01:10:07 am
Honestly, dunno what's going on - however, remember when Greg Dixon said one day, Caesar will call in his chips?

If they got to Hoggard...chances are Caesar may have called them in recently.


Title: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: William on June 21, 2011, 01:39:05 am
Honestly, dunno what's going on - however, remember when Greg Dixon said one day, Caesar will call in his chips?

If they got to Hoggard...chances are Caesar may have called them in recently.

Yeah I guess that's why the Lord says not to trust in man, but in Jesus Christ.

There are so many wolves in sheeps clothing its not funny. I even think possibly people like "Michael Slattery" might be one, but I have talked to him still recently.

Either way I'm glad I'm not in a Church system, and trusting in the Word of God, and Jesus Christ.

Do you think hes in on the NWO?


Title: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 21, 2011, 01:48:13 am
Yeah I guess that's why the Lord says not to trust in man, but in Jesus Christ.

There are so many wolves in sheeps clothing its not funny. I even think possibly people like "Michael Slattery" might be one, but I have talked to him still recently.

Either way I'm glad I'm not in a Church system, and trusting in the Word of God, and Jesus Christ.

Do you think hes in on the NWO?

From what I understand, people who belong to secret societies like the Jesuits and Freemasonry...they are SO secret, that even their spouses don't have a clue. Yes, when they have adulterous affairs, their spouses would get suspicious pretty quickly. However, it's quite the opposite when they're in secret societies...even their own close families don't have a clue(saw one video on the Jesuits about this).

No, I don't think Hoggard is an NWO/secret society member. But he DID make a big mistake in yoking up his church with 501c3. I don't know what happened in recent weeks. However, it looks like the IRS took plenty of notes from his sermons(which he posts online). I've seen sermons where he called out other false religions. It looks like the IRS may have given him an ultimatum.

And yes, in the "church system", you are trained to obey and revere the pastor.


Title: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on June 21, 2011, 05:28:31 am
It is weird, and seems out of character for him. Id like some more information. Would he lead his church to a FEMA camp? Does he support the Clergy Responce Teams? Does he think Daniel was wrong for resisting the Babylonian leaders? Was Jesus wrong for not obeying the leaders of Israel?

If the Gov says to kill our neighbors should we? What about spy on them? oh wait, they did. Until Mr. Hoggard can answer some of these I cannot support him any more. I understand what he is saying, and yes this country deserves the leaders we have. But to just blindly follow and do what they say is wrong. And the Bible backs that up.

Sorry but most of our Government does not follow a Godly Law or belief. Our Gov supports and endorses abortion. I will not, I will not stand with any one that does, and that includes the Government and the Bible backs me. We are to obey God first.

Act 5:24   Now when the high priest and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. 
 Act 5:25   Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people. 
 Act 5:26   Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned. 
 Act 5:27   And when they had brought them, they set [them] before the council: and the high priest asked them, 
 Act 5:28   Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. 
 Act 5:29   Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 


You can see from this perfect example all that needs to be said. We are to follow a Just and Right and Godly Government, but when that Gov goes against what God says than we follow God.


From Scott,
Romans 13 & Unlimited Subservience to the Government: Where should a Bible Believing Christian Draw the Line?
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1157

Feds Train 501c3 Clergy To ‘Quell Dissent’ During Martial Law (3 Parts)
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1158

Disturbing 501c3 Corporate Church Report
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1062

The 501c3 Church Being Muzzled
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1172


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on June 21, 2011, 06:21:46 am
Rethinking Romans 13

In recent years, Christians have interpreted Romans 13 as a command for unlimited submission to government by God. Many proponents of this belief have sat passively by, in the soft pews of their place of worship, while evil has triumphed in most areas of family and church life. In our pacifistic smugness, many have allowed government to become god without even knowing.

Yet, when confronted with the true meaning of Romans 13, absurd accusations are shouted in religious rhetoric toward those who would dare to break an unjust law or even to question the almighty government. The opponents of unlimited submission to government are deemed as rebellious, anarchist and disobedient. However, there is no practical, historical or biblical consistency in the shallow agreements of these simpletons.

First, unlimited submission to government is not practical. For a philosophy to be a valid philosophy, it must be consistent. As a result, it does not make practical sense to blindly obey a tyrant like Adolph Hitler or deem a law such as abortion-on-demand a legitimate law just because one's government says it is public policy. However, if Romans 13 teaches unlimited submission to government, then we must obey and acknowledge all laws, good and bad, as the will of God. If all governments are of God, then all laws are of God. This in not practical from any point of view.

Second, it is not historical. Our founding fathers recognized and understood tyranny and despotism. They perceived the ultimate end of the king's actions. Thus, they besought George III to relent in his persecutions and implored him to uphold his covenant agreement.

In July of 1774, our forefathers met in Fairfax County, Va., and considered ways of forcing Great Britain to redress American grievances. George Washington and George Mason were the instrumental agents in drafting what has come to be known as the "Fairfax Resolves."

Ponder for a moment Resolves five and six:

"Resolved that the claim lately assumed and exercised by the British Parliament, of making all such Laws as they think fit, to govern the people of these colonies, contrary to the first Principles of the Constitution, and the original Compacts by which we are dependent upon the British Crown and Government; but is totally incompatible with the privileges of a free people, and the natural Rights of Mankind; will render our own Legislatures merely nominal and nugatory, and is calculated to reduce us from a state of freedom and happiness to slavery and misery."

"Resolved that Taxation and Representation are in their nature inseparable; that the right of withholding, or of giving and granting their own money is the only effectual security to a free people, against the encroachments of Despotism and Tyranny; and that whenever they yield to one they fall prey to the other."

All of the Resolves are loaded with bullets that explode against a tyrannical and despotic government. The "shot that was heard around the world on Lexington green was loaded in the "Fairfax Resolves." How can one make that statement? After pleading with George III to uphold his covenant agreement and after seeking for a redress of grievances, the "coup de grace" is plainly stated in the 23rd Resolve:

"Resolved that it be recommended to the Deputies of the general Congress to draw up and transmit an humble and dutiful petition and remonstrance to his Majesty, asserting with decent firmness our just and constitutional Rights and Privileges, lamenting the fatal necessity of being compelled to enter into measures disgusting to his Majesty and his Parliament, or injurious to our fellow subjects in Great Britain; declaring the strongest terms of duty and affection to his Majesty's person, family and government, and our desire to continue our dependence upon Great Britain; and must humbly beseeching his Majesty, not to reduce his faithful subjects of America to a state of desperation, and to reflect, that from our Sovereign there can be but one appeal."

In simple terms, the Resolves offered George III two obvious choices. One was to fulfill his covenant obligations and be the king and ruler to the American Colonies that he had agreed to be or, second, to prepare for war. George III was asked to reflect upon the fact, that if he did not keep his end of the covenant, there could "be but one appeal."

Last --and most important -- it is not biblical. Daniel disobeyed Darius and went to the lions den. The three Hebrew children broke the law for not bowing. The parents hid baby Moses from Pharaoh. Rahab lied to protect the Hebrew spies. The Apostles went to prison for preaching Christ in the authority of Heaven. Paul and his followers in Acts 17 did contrary to all the decrees of Caesar in order to make Jesus the King. Even Jesus lived in direct opposition of the political religious leaders of his day and went to the cross for us.

Romans 13 is a treatise by Paul and the Apostles on the institution of model government. As we rightly divide the word of truth and take this passage in its total context, we will discover seven truths:


Good government is ordained by God.

Government officials are to be good ministers who represent God.

We the people must obey good and godly laws.

As we relate Romans 13 to America, our Constitution is the higher power -- not the IRS tax code.

Good government is not to be feared.

In America, we are to pay honor and custom and constitutional taxes to whom it is due.

Government is to protect the righteous and punish the wicked.
As a result, we have a practical, historical and biblical mandate to fervently disobey any unconstitutional laws and all government officials who cease to be good ministers of Jesus Christ. God almighty is the only power that deserves unlimited obedience.

Greg A. Dixon is the senior pastor of the Indianapolis Baptist Temple and has written several columns about the plight of his congregation.



Read more: Rethinking Romans 13 http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22417#ixzz1PuOciq95


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on June 21, 2011, 06:27:33 am
ROMANS 13 & CHRIST'S "CLERGY RESPONSE TEAMS"

NewsWithViews.com

Pastors across the country have been called on by the Department of Homeland Security to join “Clergy Response Teams” in order to placate and control the people of America in the event of local or national emergencies. Jeff Ferrell, a reporter for KSLA in Shreveport, claimed that “For the clergy team, one of the biggest tools that they will have in helping calm the public down or to obey the law is the bible itself, specifically Romans 13.” This idea was affirmed in the report by Dr. Durell Turberville who was quoted as saying, "because the government is established by the Lord, you know. And, that's what we believe in the Christian faith. That's what's stated in the scripture."

I believe that we may be “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,” and “ to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, but I do not see where that gives us a right to blame God for the governments we establish by that consent for ourselves.

According to the Bible when the “voice of the people” elected Saul and established a government under his authority, God called it a “rejection” of Him.

“And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.” 1 Samuel 8:7
When the Israelites were freed from the bondage of Egypt by Moses the people were told in Deuteronomy 17:16 to never go back to that type of government again. Even Jesus said we were not to be like the governments of other nations, where their benefactors exercise authority one over the other.

“And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so...” Luke 22:25, Matthew 20:25, Mark 10:42
Certainly all governments are not established by God. Were the governments of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, all ordained by God? What of George the III? If all governments are ordained of God, Americans owe George a sincere apology and should learn to sing God save the queen.

So, what is Paul trying to tell us in Romans 13? Today, when any Christian attempts to question the authority or right of government to limit the rights, choices, or liberties of the people they commonly hear pastors and other Christians reciting Romans 13. Unfortunately these pastors and their followers are under a strong delusion that has crept into the thinking of modern Christians.

Romans 13, in the King James version of the Bible, begins:

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.” Romans 13:1
We should have a hard time understanding this statement by Paul to mean that we must be obedient to all governments, while, Paul himself was constantly getting into trouble with governments for supposedly disobeying. All we have to do to resolve this apparent dilemma is honestly look anew at the text itself.

In any unabridged English dictionary the word power can have over a dozen different definitions. The question is which of these many definitions should we apply to our thinking when we read these words of Paul? Does it mean the authority of government, the power to act, or the right to choose?

To understand Paul we simply need to know what the word Paul actually used and what it truly means within the context of the Bible. The word translated into power in Romans 13 is one of more than half a dozen Greek words which are all translated into the single English word power within the New Testament.

The Greek word used in Romans 13 by Paul is exousia, which is defined: “power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases." It is translated “right” in Hebrews 13:10 and Revelations 22:14, and it is even translated “liberty” in Paul's own 1Corinthians 8:9.

Everywhere in the original text of the Bible the translation of exousia as liberty or right would fit the context of scripture. One may translate it as power, but only in the sense of the power of choice. Most modern ministers might object to this conclusion and no one should merely take my word for this interpretation. What is the opinion of others concerning the word exousia? Does it mean the power of government, or the power of choice?

In Plato's notes, we find the "Greek words for freedom (are) eleutheros (liberal/Free), exousia (Freedom/Power to do something), ..." You would think that Plato would know what the words meant back then.

In Bryn Mawr's Classical Review, the word exousia is said to express “the new concept of freedom, in opposition to the already defunct and unhelpful eleutheria." Even the Greek Glossary of Aristotelian Terms states that exousia means “right”. Aristotle, another guy who should know what the Greek actually means exemplifies exousia's use in the statement, "The right (exousia) to do anything one wishes..."

The Greek word exousia is considered to be one of the strongest words in the Greek language representing the idea of liberty. Accepting the idea that Romans 13 is actually a statement by Paul in support of individual liberty, rather than a command to submit to the commands of authoritarian rulers, will be difficult for some pastors and Christians alike to admit.

There should be no question that the word exousia in the original text means power in the sense of “the right to choose” or “liberty of choice.” And if so, then Romans 13 should be read and understood as saying:

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher liberty. For there is no liberty but of God: the liberties that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the liberty, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the liberty? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same.” Romans 13: 1,3
Can this really be true? Was Paul talking about liberty and not the subjugation of the people under rulers? From the beginning to the end, the Bible is talking about the liberty of men under God rather than the subjection of the people under other men like Cain, Lemech, Nimrod, Pharaoh, and even Herod or Caesar. If God endowed us with our right to choose why would he want us to give that right to choose to other men? Understanding that the word exousia can and does mean liberty seems to turn the world upside down for some ministers.

Pastors need to reexamine what they have been led to believe the authors of the Gospel are actually saying. If not, then the people need to reexamine the scriptures and maybe their pastors. We all need to rightly divide the word of truth, because many have been cunningly deceived by some who have “crept in unawares... denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Jeff Ferrell, the KSLA-TV reporter, also stated that, “Such clergy response teams would walk a tight-rope during martial law between the demands of the government on the one side, versus the wishes of the public on the other.”

First of all, the lawful demands of a “government of the people, for the people, and by the people” would be the same as the “wishes of the people.” If they are not the same, then something is not as it should be. Secondly, the “wishes of the people” who believe in God can never usurp the rights of their neighbors without doing violence to the command of God, Moses, and Christ to love our neighbor as ourselves.

God desires that every man should have the unimpaired and divine right of choice as long as that choice does not violate the right of our neighbor to make his own choices. There is a distinction between the privileges of governments granted by the people and the rights of the people granted by God, but the ministers of Christ should not be trying to walk that line as a tightrope. They should be squarely on the side of the people and their God given rights.

The Church was instituted by Christ to serve the purposes of God. The governments of the world usually have their own administers. One of God's purposes is to return every man to his family and to his possessions through the exercise of faith, hope, and charity in the ways of Christ under the perfect law of liberty. While we should give to Caesar what is Caesar's we are also told to give to God what is God's. Often governments may think they have a right to that which should belong to God. That would be an intolerable usurpation and it is the job of the clergy to be on the side of the people on God's behalf.

Abraham, Moses, and Christ came to set men free in spirit and in truth. The “Clergy Response Teams” of Christ must act in the service to His purposes, even if that means that they may appear to disobey the demands of men or their governments.

"Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29
If lies and deception are the bars and bricks that form our own mental prison, then vanity and pride are the mortar that binds them together. From the beginning , our Creator has allowed that men have the power to choose to be free souls under God or go under the authority of other men and their gods. That choice is never without consequences. We are not faithful to God unless we choose to accept the inherent and correlative responsibilities of those Natural Rights He has individually endowed upon all mankind.

We must not only care about the rights of others, while exercising our own, but we must fulfill that obligation without infringing on the rights of our neighbor to make their own choices. To accomplish that mission prescribed by God we must discover the whole truth and provide for it.

Footnotes:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Gregory/williams100.htm


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on June 21, 2011, 06:45:14 am
ROMANS CHAPTER 13

By Pastor Chuck Baldwin

August 10, 2007

NewsWithViews.com

It seems that every time someone such as myself attempts to encourage our Christian brothers and sisters to resist an unconstitutional or otherwise reprehensible government policy, we hear the retort, "What about Romans Chapter 13? We Christians must submit to government. Any government. Read your Bible, and leave me alone." Or words to that effect.

No doubt, some who use this argument are sincere. They are only repeating what they have heard their pastor and other religious leaders say. On the other hand, let's be honest enough to admit that some who use this argument are just plain lazy, apathetic, and indifferent. And Romans 13 is their escape from responsibility. I suspect this is the much larger group, by the way.

Nevertheless, for the benefit of those who are sincere (but obviously misinformed), let's briefly examine Romans Chapter 13. I quote Romans Chapter 13, verses 1 through 7, from the Authorized King James text:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."

Do our Christian friends who use these verses to teach that we should not oppose President Bush or any other political leader really believe that civil magistrates have unlimited authority to do anything they want without opposition? I doubt whether they truly believe that.

For example, what if our President decided to resurrect the old monarchal custom of Jus Primae Noctis (Law of First Night)? That was the old medieval custom when the king claimed the right to sleep with a subject's bride on the first night of their marriage. Would our sincere Christian brethren sheepishly say, "Romans Chapter 13 says we must submit to the government"? I think not. And would any of us respect any man who would submit to such a law?

So, there are limits to authority. A father has authority in his home, but does this give him power to abuse his wife and children? Of course not. An employer has authority on the job, but does this give him power to control the private lives of his employees? No. A pastor has overseer authority in the church, but does this give him power to tell employers in his church how to run their businesses? Of course not. All human authority is limited in nature. No man has unlimited authority over the lives of other men. (Lordship and Sovereignty is the exclusive domain of Jesus Christ.)

By the same token, a civil magistrate has authority in civil matters, but his authority is limited and defined. Observe that Romans Chapter 13 clearly limits the authority of civil government by strictly defining its purpose: "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil . . . For he is the minister of God to thee for good . . . for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

Notice that civil government must not be a "terror to good works." It has no power or authority to terrorize good works or good people. God never gave it that authority. And any government that oversteps that divine boundary has no divine authority or protection.

Civil government is a "minister of God to thee for good." It is a not a minister of God for evil. Civil magistrates have a divine duty to "execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." They have no authority to execute wrath upon him that doeth good. None. Zilch. Zero. And anyone who says they do is lying. So, even in the midst of telling Christians to submit to civil authority, Romans Chapter 13 limits the power and reach of civil authority.

Did Moses violate God's principle of submission to authority when he killed the Egyptian taskmaster in defense of his fellow Hebrew? Did Elijah violate God's principle of submission to authority when he openly challenged Ahab and Jezebel? Did David violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to surrender to Saul's troops? Did Daniel violate God's principle of submission to authority when he disobeyed the king's law to not pray audibly to God? Did the three Hebrew children violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to bow to the image of the state? Did John the Baptist violate God's principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem? Did Paul violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to obey those authorities who demanded that he abandon his missionary work? In fact, Paul spent almost as much time in jail as he did out of jail.

Remember that every apostle of Christ (except John) was killed by hostile civil authorities opposed to their endeavors. Christians throughout church history were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by civil authorities of all stripes for refusing to submit to their various laws and prohibitions. Did all of these Christian martyrs violate God's principle of submission to authority?

So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority--even civil authority--is limited.

Plus, Paul makes it clear that our submission to civil authority must be predicated on more than fear of governmental retaliation. Notice, he said, "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." Meaning, our obedience to civil authority is more than just "because they said so." It is also a matter of conscience. This means we must think and reason for ourselves regarding the justness and rightness of our government's laws. Obedience is not automatic or robotic. It is a result of both rational deliberation and moral approbation.

Therefore, there are times when civil authority may need to be resisted. Either governmental abuse of power or the violation of conscience (or both) could precipitate civil disobedience. Of course, how and when we decide to resist civil authority is an entirely separate issue. And I will reserve that discussion for another time.

Beyond that, we in the United States of America do not live under a monarchy. We have no king. There is no single governing official in this country. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with any man or any group of men. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with the President, the Congress, or even the Supreme Court. In America, the U.S. Constitution is the "supreme Law of the Land." Under our laws, every governing official publicly promises to submit to the Constitution of the United States. Do readers understand the significance of this distinction? I hope so.

This means that in America the "higher powers" are not the men who occupy elected office, they are the tenets and principles set forth in the U.S. Constitution. Under our laws and form of government, it is the duty of every citizen, including our elected officials, to obey the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, this is how Romans Chapter 13 reads to Americans:

"Let every soul be subject unto the [U.S. Constitution.] For there is no [Constitution] but of God: the [Constitution] that be [is] ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the [Constitution], resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For [the Constitution is] not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the [Constitution]? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For [the Constitution] is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for [the Constitution] beareth not the sword in vain: for [the Constitution] is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for [the Constitution is] God's minister, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."

Dear Christian friend, the above is exactly the proper understanding of our responsibility to civil authority in these United States, as per the teaching of Romans Chapter 13.

Furthermore, Christians, above all people, should desire that their elected representatives submit to the Constitution, because it is constitutional government that has done more to protect Christian liberty than any governing document ever devised by man. As I have noted before in this column (See: Read), Biblical principles form the foundation of all three of America's founding documents: The Declaration of Independence, The U.S. Constitution, and The Bill of Rights.

As a result, Christians in America (for the most part) have not had to face the painful decision to "obey God rather than men" and defy their civil authorities.

The problem in America today is that we have allowed our political leaders to violate their oaths of office and to ignore, and blatantly disobey, the "supreme Law of the Land," the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if we truly believe Romans Chapter 13, we will insist and demand that our civil magistrates submit to the U.S. Constitution.

Now, how many of us Christians are going to truly obey Romans Chapter 13?

http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin389.htm


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 21, 2011, 08:58:38 am
I was thinking the similar things too with the word "power" in Romans 13 - IF Paul was really talking about governments and ruling authorities in that passage, THEN WHY DIDN'T IT SAY goverments/ruling authorities in the first place?

And look at the NIV - they use "submit to the government" INSTEAD - now that says ALOT right there.

Also - didn't Ephesians 6:12 say these so-called governing authorities(principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of the world, and spiritual wickedness in high places - in this context of powers, they linked it to spiritual wickedness in high places) are wicked?

Pastor Hoggard has said many, many times how our current government is part of the Eph 6:12 passage - which is yet another reason he just contradicted himself completely.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on June 21, 2011, 09:12:28 am
I was thinking the similar things too with the word "power" in Romans 13 - IF Paul was really talking about governments and ruling authorities in that passage, THEN WHY DIDN'T IT SAY goverments/ruling authorities in the first place?

And look at the NIV - they use "submit to the government" INSTEAD - now that says ALOT right there.

Also - didn't Ephesians 6:12 say these so-called governing authorities(principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of the world, and spiritual wickedness in high places - in this context of powers, they linked it to spiritual wickedness in high places) are wicked?

Pastor Hoggard has said many, many times how our current government is part of the Eph 6:12 passage - which is yet another reason he just contradicted himself completely.



Just curious, but was it you that emailed him and asked what his opinion was on this? Seems like something you'd do.  ???


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 21, 2011, 11:51:37 am
Just curious, but was it you that emailed him and asked what his opinion was on this? Seems like something you'd do.  ???

You mean emailed Pastor Hoggard about this? No, I don't recall emailing him asking him about this - although last year before I joined his mailing list, I asked him a 501c3 question, and he pretty much brushed it off. For the most part, his church's web site is a *.com, which is what gave me the impression it wasn't a 501c3(as the *.org means non-profit).

But if I understand your question, he talked about Eph 6:12 many times and how it relates to our current government and world governments et al in his watchmen broadcasts.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on June 21, 2011, 11:58:53 am
Uhm, no. He said some one emailed him and was asking about his position on Rom 13. I know you do that a lot. Just email people and ask them questions. I was really expecting it to have been you.  :D


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 21, 2011, 12:08:15 pm
Uhm, no. He said some one emailed him and was asking about his position on Rom 13. I know you do that a lot. Just email people and ask them questions. I was really expecting it to have been you.  :D

LOL, no, it wasn't me. Yeah, I heard him say that at the beginning of the sermon. To be frank, the more I think about it, he probably said that as an excuse to preach it. Otherwise, I think he would have at least said something about it a long time ago(to be frank, I don't recall him saying anything about government hijacking churches in any of his watchmen broadcasts).

Ask Kilika and he'll tell you how many times/week I ask him questions via pm. :P


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on June 21, 2011, 12:14:17 pm
The weirdest part to me was the way he kept apologizing about it. He Kept saying how he liked the church and wanted to stay. It almost comes accross like he is forced to do this. Its all very weird. I never would have expected this from him. And at the end where he says he will pray for any that leave his church? whats that all about?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 21, 2011, 12:51:15 pm
The weirdest part to me was the way he kept apologizing about it. He Kept saying how he liked the church and wanted to stay. It almost comes accross like he is forced to do this. Its all very weird. I never would have expected this from him. And at the end where he says he will pray for any that leave his church? whats that all about?

Were you able to listen to the whole sermon? I only had time for 30 minutes of it.

Overall, imho, I think most pastors and churches were hoodwinked into doing this a long time ago-yes, we should discern ALL things, and test all the spirits. However, I can't help but think that they were tricked and hoodwinked into doing this from the get-go. And it's like that "roach motel" that was popular in the 80's - once you get yoked in, it's kinda hard to yoke out unless you're willing to give up everything. I know Greg Dixon went through this.

Although there are some exceptions - Chuck Swindol(Dallas Theological Seminary President) is encouraging everyone to get a 501c3.

And pray for any that leave his church? I thought a KJV-only guy should know full well that if someone rejects the testimony of Jesus Christ you witness to them, you just merely wipe the dust off of your feet. But who knows? Maybe with that statement you mention he made at the end, maybe he all but hinted he's forced to yoke up with the Clergy Response Teams? And he's hinting them to be careful?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Believer on June 21, 2011, 12:53:52 pm
It almost comes accross like he is forced to do this.

I'd have to say I agree with this statement.  What it is or who we may never know, but it is obvious that someone is holding some power over his head.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on June 21, 2011, 12:54:10 pm
Quote
Were you able to listen to the whole sermon?

ya, a couple of times.  I liked some of his stuff. and now this. Seems like Scott is the only legit guy out there.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 21, 2011, 01:03:06 pm
ya, a couple of times.  I liked some of his stuff. and now this. Seems like Scott is the only legit guy out there.

Beh - Scott is just flesh and blood like the rest of us.

Seriously though, while I don't follow man, Scott is one of the few people out there where I can hear some hard preaching nowdays. Sam Adams from Belleview, FL is another(his church is a non-501c3). I like Brian Denlinger alot as well(although Jesse forgot his last name, the other preacher at BD's home church, I find rather dry - but it's just a personal preference, and no more).

I attended my mom's Korean church in the metroplex on Sunday...yet another very soft sermon in today's church. He just mumbled and jumbled on how we can be a good neighbor to others. Same with a Lutheran church my uncle attends in Ohio a month ago - yet another "do good for the community" watered down message.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on June 21, 2011, 01:16:49 pm
I dont put Scott up on a pedastle.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 21, 2011, 10:26:26 pm
Well, either way, the bible predicted many false prophets would rise. It also predicted a falling away in the end times.

Again, not going to try to speculate the situation with Pastor Hoggard - but for now, yah, stay away from him. If the blind follow the blind, both shall fall into a ditch...


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Jshannon on June 22, 2011, 10:09:44 am
 Does anyone remember in the Matthew 2:
 Of how King Herod sent out his priests and scribes to find the newborn Jesus, they knew his intentions were not friendly. They did however go out and find the newborn but failed to report it back, mainly because God spoke to them in a dream and they understood not to go against what God was telling them, and that was to not report the location to Herod, so they went back to their country in another way.
 The point is this;
 Promises ought not to be kept, where God's honor and preaching of his truth are hindered.
 
 Does your government give you reason to trust their intentions, do they meet in secrecy..plotting?  What fruit in the eyes of God do they produce?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on June 23, 2011, 09:16:13 am
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=3126#comment-2439
Dr. Scott Johnson says:
June 23, 2011 at 12:31 am

I am listening to it now. So far I see exactly what the problems with this sermon are. This is sickening to me. He is basically saying no matter how evil the government gets we are to obey them or we will go to hell (he makes this inference on at least two occasions but I couldn’t listen to any more of it after the 26:00 minute mark). His justification of the TSA is also a very good example of how deceived he is in regards to that subject. This army of perverts sexually assault little children and adults alike, and exposes them to massive amounts of radiation and takes pornographic pictures of them and evidently Pastor Hoggard feels this is all justified and we should just subject our children as well as ourselves to this extreme evil because the government knows best and we need to just obey and not question their obvious good intentions. This is just one example of a government evil that totally contradicts Scripture. The key phrase is when he (and the word of God) says “Rulers are not a terror to good works” but when the government is as rouge as ours, it has become just the opposite (which he evidently he does not see): A terror to good works (much like the TSA example I just cited). Our government is getting more wicked by the day and this government is ‘no minister of God to do good’ as this portion of Scripture implies, therefore these scriptures do not apply when the rulers are a terror to good works thereby proving they are not ministers of God to do good. This obviously is not to say that all US laws are unjust and terrible, it is just they are moving in that direction. All one would have to do is carefully look at the verses in this portion of Scripture to easily debunk this typical Romans 13 stance taught widely in the cemeteries/seminaries of America. In fact I did so in this teaching:

Romans 13 & Unlimited Subservience to the Government: Where should a Bible Believing Christian Draw the Line? http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1157

From the description of this sermon we read: Do Christians who use Romans 13 to teach that we should not oppose President Bush or any other political leader, really believe that civil magistrates have unlimited authority to do anything they want without opposition? For example, what if our President decided to resurrect the old monarchal custom of Jus Primae Noctis (Law of First Night)? That was the old medieval custom when the king claimed the right to sleep with a subject’s bride on the first night of their marriage. Would our sincere Christian brethren sheepishly say, ‘Romans Chapter 13 says we must submit to the government’? I think not. And would any of us respect any man who would submit to such a law? So, there are limits to authority. All human authority is limited in nature. No man has unlimited authority over the lives of other men. (Lordship and Sovereignty is the exclusive domain of Jesus Christ.) Did John the Baptist violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God’s principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem? Act 5:29: “Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.” So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority–even civil authority–is limited.

Also to drive this point home even further I am posting part of a report on this subject:
The Radical Message of Romans 13
Posted By evancurry on May 13, 2010

1 Let everyone be subject to Hitler, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against Hitler is rebelling against who God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of Hitler? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For Hitler is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. Hitler is God’s servant, agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to him, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
It seems strange to read Romans 13:1-7 like this, but this is exactly how the majority of churches in Nazi Germany

Adolf Hitler
applied it. Hitler is God’s servant. Therefore, we should not resist but submit ourselves to what he is doing. When Hitler came into power, Romans 13. When his Gestapo began to take your Jewish neighbors away, Romans 13. When his army invaded Poland, Romans 13. Hitler wisely embraced a twisted view of Romans 13 to give him unquestioned power by the majority of German Christians. Not many Christians spoke up because, let’s be frank, as long as you were on Hitler’s side you were on the winning side. Romans 13 gives Hitler a lot of lead-way to do as he pleases. I mean, Paul would tell the German Christians to be subject to the governing authorities, wouldn’t he? The pro-Nazi churches were just following Scripture, right?

Some Christians spoke up against Hitler. Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Karl Barth to name two. They were part of a much smaller group of German Christians, who spread anti-Nazi propaganda, and rejected the German government’s attempts to “Nazify” the churches in Germany. In response to this, they headed up a movement called the “Confessing Church” and signed the Barmen Declaration, which was a document directly speaking out against Nazi Germany. Were they in this way disobeying Scripture?

Nazi Germany was one of the greatest evils in all of history, and yet much of the German church sided with this evil because they believed they were following Scripture. It is easy to sit back in our chairs and condemn the pro-Nazi churches, but we would be wise to learn from history, instead of repeating it.

Also see the other reports below to get a feel for the fruit of the churches yoking up with the government and the massive amount of evil and leaven this has introduced into the church at large:
Disturbing 501c3 Corporate Church Report http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1062
Feds Train 501c3 Clergy To ‘Quell Dissent’ During Martial Law (3 Parts) http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1158
The 501c3 Church Being Muzzled http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1172

Here is another very interesting take on this subject:
Submission to the State

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
In my hands is an old, beat up Bible. Somebody has been thumping it too hard and it is falling to pieces. This particular Bible has subheadings for each chapter. At Romans 13 it says, “Submission to the State.” Wow, that really strikes a strong cord in me. Now those words are not part of the Scripture. They are just someone’s opinion of what Romans 13 says, but does it?

Romans 13 is the scripture that stumbles so many people when they try to “come out from among them.” How can they “come out” and “obey them” at the same time?

The harlot churches like to promote Romans 13 as meaning, “Obey Caesar,” or “Obey the law of the land.” How else can they interpret it? They have yoked themselves with Caesar through State incorporation. Their very life comes from the State. If they do not obey Caesar, Caesar will withdraw their corporate charter and they will die. State incorporated churches have only one choice if they are to survive: promote obedience to the State.

Barclay’s commentaries, which are used as a textbook in Sunday Schools, shows the typical attitude about Romans 13. Barclay says, “At first reading this is an extremely surprising passage, for it seems to counsel absolute obedience on the part of the Christian to the civil power. But, in point of fact, this is a commandment which runs through the whole New Testament.” According to Barclay, Romans 13 commands “absolute obedience on the part of the Christian to the civil power.” With commentaries like this, it is no wonder that Romans 13 was Hitler’s favorite Bible passage.

Absolute obedience means obeying the president and every bureaucrat under him. “Obey all these people who do not confess Jesus Christ. After all, God has set these men over us.” Are we to obey anyone who claims to be a higher authority? Let’s take another look at Romans 13 and rightly divide the word of truth.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:16
Understanding Romans 13 http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: jackie on June 23, 2011, 10:17:54 am
wow, I am going to listen to this one, I had been listening to Mike Hoggord for the past 5-6 months... I think he is a 501c3 Church even thought you can "attend" his church sevices online.

Thanks for the insight!


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Degruix on June 23, 2011, 10:37:11 am
I listened to the entire sermon once and the first 25 minutes a second time.

Much like the vague insinuations against Chuck Missler, this seems to me to be another mole hill made into a mountain.


What I got from the sermon was trust God and submit to the laws of the land.

Did he say if the government tells you to kill your child then you do so, no he did not.

Did he say take the mark of the beast when given the choice between that and death, no he did not.

He said trust God and submit. He did not say submit no matter what.

I do not like many of the laws any more then most people, but there is a difference between a law that is unjust and a law that is unGodly. We each have to pray about and study the Bible about any law we think is unGodly. 

If you trust God then why are you afraid of men? You already know what the future holds, it is prewritten by God. You are going to either be Raptured or die. No one wants to be persecuted, but Christians are going to be increasingly persecuted and put upon. The devil rules this world, that is just how it is. As Christians you already know this. Fear is just your sinful flesh talking, as Born Again Christians we should all be striving to keep our eyes on God and doing His will, not what is about to happen to us down here.

I will go back listening to Pasture Mike's audios now, I have listened to almost everything on his website except his sermons but I still have about 1/5 or so of them to go.

Mike Hoggard is my favorite teacher, his verse by verse study of Revelation is awesome.

I would also like to thank Scot Johnson for exposing me to him.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 23, 2011, 10:53:13 am
Yes, everything Hoggard said in his watchmen audios just COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS what he said in his Romans 13 sermon.

He described Obama as MERELY "not perfect". No, he has NOT said one good thing about Obama in his watchmen audios.

If Ronald Reagan really was "not perfect", then why in the world did he re-establish diplomatic relations with the Vatican for the first time in over 100 years? Why did he let the Pope have more influence over our US government policies?

So Clinton was being "not perfect" when he fooled around with Monica Lewinsky and lied about it?

Was George W. Bush being "not perfect" when he lied about WMD being in Iraq?

Are the wars in the ME really protecting our freedoms here like Hoggard implied? Hoggard said the complete opposite in his watchmen videos.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on June 23, 2011, 03:10:46 pm
I listened to the entire sermon once and the first 25 minutes a second time.

Much like the vague insinuations against Chuck Missler, this seems to me to be another mole hill made into a mountain.


What I got from the sermon was trust God and submit to the laws of the land.

Did he say if the government tells you to kill your child then you do so, no he did not.

Did he say take the mark of the beast when given the choice between that and death, no he did not.

He said trust God and submit. He did not say submit no matter what.

I do not like many of the laws any more then most people, but there is a difference between a law that is unjust and a law that is unGodly. We each have to pray about and study the Bible about any law we think is unGodly. 

If you trust God then why are you afraid of men? You already know what the future holds, it is prewritten by God. You are going to either be Raptured or die. No one wants to be persecuted, but Christians are going to be increasingly persecuted and put upon. The devil rules this world, that is just how it is. As Christians you already know this. Fear is just your sinful flesh talking, as Born Again Christians we should all be striving to keep our eyes on God and doing His will, not what is about to happen to us down here.

I will go back listening to Pasture Mike's audios now, I have listened to almost everything on his website except his sermons but I still have about 1/5 or so of them to go.

Mike Hoggard is my favorite teacher, his verse by verse study of Revelation is awesome.

I would also like to thank Scot Johnson for exposing me to him.

Its more that he didn't say any of that stuff. If the Gov. shows up and tells me to go to a FEMA camp. Im not going. If they say we have to turn in all our Bibles are you? I mean the Church has a long history of NOT doing that. It is his total endorsement to blindly follow the government that bothers me. Its a secular worldly government, and not once did he say anything about not following anything they have to say. Dear Lord he even came out and said we should have more rules and laws. You have to be kidding me.

Quote
He did not say submit no matter what.

Basically he did say that. Not once did he give an example of not following the Gov, although the Bible is rife with it.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 23, 2011, 03:42:51 pm
FYI - here's more proof-

Go to page 9 of the PDF
http://unregisteredbaptistfellowship.com/trumpet/archives/pdf/Trumpet%20Jan-Mar2011.pdf

President Bush Vows to Rebuild Moslem Mosque;
Christian Church in U.S. Bulldozed after His
Attorney General Orders It Seized


By Dr. Greg Dixon
Reprinted from July-Sept 2008 Trumpet
CNN News reported on February
22, 2008 that President Bush has vowed
to rebuild a Moslem mosque that is suspected
of being destroyed by al-Qaeda.
There has been a series of terrorist
attacks on 27 Moslem mosques in Iraq,
including the renowned Al-Askariya
"Golden Mosque" in Samarra, one of the
holiest Shiite sites. The wave of attacks
followed an early morning bombing of
the mosque, which included a 6-hour
barrage of small arms fire, rocket-propelled
grenades and mortar rounds.
Three Sunni imams were killed in the
attacks.

The top half of the golden dome that
once towered above the Al-Askariya
Mosque collapsed in the blast. Minarets
flanking the dome remained standing
amid mounds of debris.

Shiites believe Imam al-Mehdi, the
12th and final awaited imam, will reappear
at the Al-Askariya Mosque to bring
them salvation. Al-Mehdi's father and
grandfather, the 11th and 10th imams
respectively, are buried in the shrine. Al-
Mehdi is said to have disappeared in the
eighth century during the funeral of his
father and is believed by Shiites to have
been withdrawn by God from the eyes of
the people, until his return.

Foreign fighters were likely responsible,
and the attack bore the hallmarks
of al Qaeda in Iraq, al-Rubaie said.
"They are really testing the patience of
the Iraqi people," he said, calling on
Muslims around the world to condemn
"this act of terrorism." The attack
occurred as Kurdish, Shiite and Sunni
leaders are working to form a national
unity government.

President Bush condemned the
"brutal bombing of the Golden
Mosque," promising help to rebuild it
and asking Iraqis to exercise restraint.
"The terrorists in Iraq have again proven
that they are enemies of all faiths and of
all humanity," he said in a statement.
"This senseless crime is an affront to
people of faith throughout the world."
Bush Attorney General Orders
Christian Church in U.S. Raided
and Bulldozed Down!


After President Bush's representatives
were given a legal plan by Attorney
Al Cunningham where by the
Indianapolis Baptist Temple property
could have been saved, and which the
President's liaison agreed was a feasible
plan, professed Christian Attorney
General John Ashcroft moved quickly to
seize the property by his own admission.
In a letter to Mr. Ashcroft dated
March 1, 2002, Pastor Greg A. Dixon
and I challenged Mr. Ashcroft with the
following words:

Dear Mr. Ashcroft:
This letter is to inform you that the congregation
of the Indianapolis Baptist Temple
is in total shock to learn of the slanderous
and false remarks that you made about our
congregation in a speech carried live on
CNN and Fox News Network on December
5, 2001, in which you connected the
Indianapolis Baptist Temple to domestic terrorism
.
This is especially egregious considering
the events of September 11,…
The slanderous and false words that
our congregation takes exception to were
delivered at the swearing in ceremony for
Benigno Reyna the new Director of the
Marshals Service which was held at the
U.S. Marshal Service headquarters at
Arlington, Virginia, on that date of
December 5. Those words are as follows:
"And I would just add that since I
became attorney general, I've had numerous
opportunities to witness the truth of your
message. For example, when I came on
board last winter, the first Department of
Justice operation conducted on my watch
was for the department to seize the assets

read more


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: jackie on June 23, 2011, 08:09:41 pm
I listened to that sermon and kept feeling like he was getting people ready to accept martial law....very different from how he usually preaches/ teaches.

He knows the corruption in the government, why all this "patriotism and  submission to O. A red flag went up when he mentioned George Bush "didn't do everything right during 9/11

He has to know that was an inside job.   Big change. 


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 23, 2011, 11:05:41 pm
I listened to that sermon and kept feeling like he was getting people ready to accept martial law....very different from how he usually preaches/ teaches.

He knows the corruption in the government, why all this "patriotism and  submission to O. A red flag went up when he mentioned George Bush "didn't do everything right during 9/11

He has to know that was an inside job.   Big change. 

So when George W. Bush and John Ashcroft went after Pastor Greg Dixon, bulldozed his church, and called his ministry "domestic terrorism", was Bush "being human and not perfect"? Or how about the WMD lies to get us to Iraq? Or how about when Bush told Charlie Gibson that Christians and Muslims worship the same God? Or how about exposing Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame their undercover CIA agent identities? Or how about the Afhganistan war after 9/11 that's continued until now?



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 05, 2011, 04:45:29 pm
Well, still getting his work on his watchman/pure bible study/sunday service cds in the mail - very surprised he's still doing this especially considering he's distancing himself. Either way, they go in the trash.

Let them alone. If the blind follow the blind, both shall fall into a ditch...


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on July 10, 2011, 07:31:40 am
Pastor Mike should really read this.

p.s. NASB and NIV

When Government Declares Good to Be Evil
Melvin Johnson


It is an indisputable fact that the government of the United States of America is a unique exercise of individual freedom and personal responsibility, while simultaneously reflecting the e pluribus unum (out of many, one) creed. Our enemies may look at this great melting pot as a boiling cauldron of disunity, confusion and weakness, and even seek to exploit what they see as opportunity, but when attacked or woefully offended, they become subject to a unified force of unbridled might and fury!

What makes our government so unique is that the founders and framers of our Constitution and laws wrote them in the context of its citizenry being a moral people, rich in Biblical knowledge and practitioners of Judeo-Christian principles. In the 13th chapter of Romans, verses 3 and 5 provide a brief, but excellent in the purpose of our government and those we place in power through our election process ...

Quote
"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil." (NASB).

Rom 13:3   For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 
 Rom 13:4   For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. 
 Rom 13:5   Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 


So the essential essence and purpose of the United States government is to promote social order by protecting its citizenry from evil! But what happens when our government becomes a terror to that which is good? The prophet Isaiah cried out "Woe to them that call good evil and evil good..." It is God and he alone who has established the standard between that which is good and that which is evil, with government in place to maintain the line of separation.

Is it evil to pray? Most of us agree that there is nothing wrong with a person praying, no matter where the individual might be. Prayer has been an essential part of the American heart, soul and mind since the native Americans first set foot on this continent! Each individual has the right to believe in it or not, but certainly should not thwart or hinder those who do! Just a little research would tell any person that government has now taken a position to terrorize those who seek to pray at the times and places of their own choosing.

When Arleen Ocasio, Director of Houston VA National Cemetery sent out her decree banning families from using the name "Jesus" or "God," and instructing them to send her a copy of any written statement for her approval, she was met by a firestorm of opposition. From her perspective, this President Obama appointee saw the need to purge the cemetary of all religious exercises and symbols. Advancing the pagan and antichrist agenda!

In 1999, U.S. 5th District Court Judge Samuel Kent issued a scathing attack against several students at the Santa Fe High School. If Marian Ward and others were to defy his order not to pray at a school event, he posted a federal marshal and declared that he would "make them wish that they were never born..." Again, is it evil to ask for God's protection and blessings through prayer?

Other most recent cases include the San Antonio area's Medina High School, where the 2011 graduating class valedictorian was ordered by U.S. District Judge Fred Biery to refrain from talking about God, Jesus or even saying "Amen!" Fortunately the school district's appeal was granted, and the event, fueled by a public enraged by the judge's order, became a special occasion affirming a belief in God and the goodness in relating to how Jesus' influence brings positive living. So again, government's attempt to call the good thing of prayer "evil" was thwarted by wiser minds.

In Houston, Texas, pastor Scott Rainey had said a prayer during the Veteran's National Cemetery's Memorial Day Program for the past two years. As he was invited to do the same this year, he was contacted and told that he could not pray in the name of Jesus, and if he insisted, then he would have to be disinvited. According to

Is it evil to be prosperous? As millions of immigrants even realize today, America is still the land of opportunity. Free enterprise and capitalism are built upon the foundation of liberty, and the right of the individual to exceed and excel is matched nowhere else in the world! Today, any person—regardless of who they are or where they came from—has the opportunity to prosper. The entrepreneur, the inventor, the leader, the investor usually comes from humble beginnings, but through personal sacrifice and belief in their own abilities, become successful and prosperous. Even those who study hard, further their education and prepare for rewarding careers do so at great sacrifice! Unfortunately, they are now seen as the enemy. Government has declared them to be selfish and gluttonous. "They make too much money, and must therefore share their wealth!" is the judgment. Government's punishment for being successful is more taxation.

Is it evil to point out evil? In the New International Version, Exodus 20:13 says, "You shall not murder." Exd 20:13 ¶ Thou shalt not kill.  It is the willful taking of innocent life. What can be more innocent than an unborn child! Yet, many laws have been enacted and radically-enforced to protect the abortionist and the organizations that support and encourage it. Our government provides funding for the abortion procedure while making every possible effort to discourage those who speak against it! In the eyes of government today, the pro-life movement is the sinister group that must be carefully watched. To be an advocate for the unborn is evil as far as it is concerned!

What we are witnessing is the invasion of a foreign and sinister force—an ideology that is not American, but an unholy entity that has murdered millions and enslaved nations! Romans 13 makes it very clear concerning the function of government, and when it expands beyond its God-ordained boundaries, it soon becomes tyrannical. When it begins to see our good as evil, government itself becomes that!

http://blogs.christianpost.com/thinkingoutloud/2011/07/when-government-declares-good-to-be-evil-09/


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on July 29, 2011, 06:58:45 am
White House courts religious leaders to help people in need

It's a combination of church and state — not separation — that keeps communities strong, federal officials told more than 500 members of Denver's faith and social-services communities Wednesday at the Convention Center.

The White House's traveling conference series, "Connecting Communities for the Common Good," stopped in Denver, one of five U.S. cities on the schedule.

The White House Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships said working with religious leaders in their hometowns enables the administration to better support the critical work of feeding and housing people, ensuring health care, creating economic opportunities, promoting education and strengthening families.

Gov. John Hickenlooper said in the keynote address that people questioned Denver's recruitment of congregations to help the city end homelessness — an initiative he undertook as mayor.

The law says government can't favor one religion over another, Hickenlooper said — it doesn't say you cannot get involved with religious communities.

"Communities of faith have been a big part of our search for social justice from the beginning," Hickenlooper said.

In continuing a faith-based initiative of President George W. Bush, President Barack Obama​ said faith-based groups are not a substitute for secular nonprofits and government efforts, but America "needs all hands on deck."

"If your focus is first and foremost serving people in need, then there's not a tremendous amount of time left to debate the finer points of the church- state relationship," said program director Joshua DuBois​.

The office, which has four staffers in the White House and about 40 spread across various federal agencies, doesn't provide grants or make award decisions.

It helps faith-based and other groups learn how to compete for existing federal grants and trains them to be active providers of secular services.

"For example, before a natural disaster, we help certify and train groups in how to respond," DuBois said. "We go in after a disaster and make sure those same organizations know how to be part of long-term recovery efforts."

These efforts can bolster local programs that strengthen or support everything from health care and responsible parenting to assisting veterans and fostering volunteerism.

Now Faith Christian Center Church pastor Leon Emerson, president of the Greater Metro Ministerial Alliance, said faith leaders, while grateful for the administration's support, don't want more process or red tape, or new programs.

"We already know the needs in our communities," Emerson said. "We want someone to come alongside us with dollars and help us out with what we're already doing."

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_18564109?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+delicious%2Fgqlf+%28Christian+Headlines+Top+Headlines%29


Title: hoggard
Post by: Mark on July 18, 2012, 05:23:22 am
i watched it. It's unthinkable that a professed doctor - Phil Stringer could write such a book with obvious lies in it. The front cover of the book is pretty misleading showing the KJV in flames, Gail Riplinger is under alot of attack and even Mike Hoggard is attacked too, Silly Philly says that Gail is leading people into the ecumenical movement and into the Kabbalah - totally ridiculous :D Bryan makes a good point that there were no seminaries or bible colleges in the early church. After seeing Dr Stringer's book new book i would definitely beware of him.

I listened to most of it and have to agree, this Stringer guy is a nut and definatly not a KJ person. You dont need seminaries and Bible colleges, you never have as the best preachers and evangelists are self taught. always have been. As their teacher is the Spirit. Even i attack Hoggard, dont trust him, especially as he said when the Gov comes for his church, they have nothing to worry about as HE will protect them.

Sorry but that kind of talk scares me, especially when it comes from the leader of a church. a 501c3 church at that.


Title: hoggard
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 18, 2012, 09:06:07 am
I listened to most of it and have to agree, this Stringer guy is a nut and definatly not a KJ person. You dont need seminaries and Bible colleges, you never have as the best preachers and evangelists are self taught. always have been. As their teacher is the Spirit. Even i attack Hoggard, dont trust him, especially as he said when the Gov comes for his church, they have nothing to worry about as HE will protect them.

Sorry but that kind of talk scares me, especially when it comes from the leader of a church. a 501c3 church at that.

Stringer is a member of the Dean Burgon Society - from what I understand, the DBS believes we have to go back to the Greek and Hebrew to understand the translations better in the KJV. It doesn't make any sense at all, b/c the KJV was given to us in ENGLISH ALREADY - PRAISE JESUS! I can't remember all of the names, but DA Waite is also a member - I have his Defined King James Bible. Thankfully, he didn't change any words, delete words, add words, verses, etc like Zonderfan would do, however, he bold printed some words and defined them in the footnotes...the latter part hasn't been good b/c Waite referred to the UPDATED Greek like Schrivener's(sp) for these defined words.

As for Hoggard, yeah - it really disturbed me when he gave an "unlimited submission to the government" Romans 13 sermon last year. I watched one of his Watchman's Broadcasts for the first time the other night in over a year, but nonetheless itshouldn't sit well with anyone if any preacher gives this kind of sermon. This is what Stringer should have called out Hoggard over.

And yeah, I was completely shocked over the blasphemy Stringer put out in his book - it was pretty much him spewing heresies and blasphemies more than attacking Ripplinger herself.


Title: hoggard
Post by: Christian40 on July 19, 2012, 01:21:50 am
Hoggard is 501c3? i'll believe You Mark, but to be fair i will say despite Hoggard not being perfect he has some really great videos that explain the King James Bible to the listeners, he gets into the fine points of Bible Numerics in the KJV which nearly all preachers wont get into. The Bible Numerics were put in the Bible by God to show Bible students that God works through numbers, i'm sure You can think of examples. You may say by their fruits ye shall know them, see the fruits of Hoggard's ministries and that is the key to recognizing them.


Title: hoggard
Post by: Mark on July 19, 2012, 04:02:56 am
Hoggard is 501c3? i'll believe You Mark, but to be fair i will say despite Hoggard not being perfect he has some really great videos that explain the King James Bible to the listeners, he gets into the fine points of Bible Numerics in the KJV which nearly all preachers wont get into. The Bible Numerics were put in the Bible by God to show Bible students that God works through numbers, i'm sure You can think of examples. You may say by their fruits ye shall know them, see the fruits of Hoggard's ministries and that is the key to recognizing them.

I wont deny that, not at all. I really liked him, up until that sermon. And i say sermon as that is what it was, given at his church, to his flock. He has never released this as a big thing, like he does everything else he does. But with all that being said, Billy Graham has some good stuff too. Remember they come in as sheep but are really ravenous wolves.


Title: hoggard
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 19, 2012, 10:03:51 am
I wont deny that, not at all. I really liked him, up until that sermon. And i say sermon as that is what it was, given at his church, to his flock. He has never released this as a big thing, like he does everything else he does. But with all that being said, Billy Graham has some good stuff too. Remember they come in as sheep but are really ravenous wolves.

Even before Hoggard came out supporting Romans 13 being "unlimited submission", I used to listen to some of his church sermons, and to be frank, while they may have been a heck of alot better than 99% of the perverted bible versions out there, they still had some leaven of Churchianity in them. For example, one time in 2010 during a sermon, he told his flock that they needed to go out and vote in the midterm elections. This itself is nothing but religious right/moral majority babble. Another time he commented during a sermon, "The Lord may not make his 2nd Coming until another 25 years from now". Yes, I know we don't know the day nor hour, but it completely contradicts with what he's been warning in his Watchman's Broadcast videos. Yet another leaven Churchianity statement.

While I think Hoggard is genuine, the rotten fruits of 501c3 are pretty obvious to ANY ministry, b/c the yoke of bondage under the IRS is so strong. I'm surprised Bryan endorses him b/c Bryan has been warning heavily about the rotten fruits of 501c3. And for that matter too, I wish Scott doesn't endorse DA Waite b/c his Bible for Today ministry is a 501c3.

Luk 3:9  And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Title: hoggard
Post by: Christian40 on July 20, 2012, 01:01:31 am
I wont deny that, not at all. I really liked him, up until that sermon. And i say sermon as that is what it was, given at his church, to his flock. He has never released this as a big thing, like he does everything else he does. But with all that being said, Billy Graham has some good stuff too. Remember they come in as sheep but are really ravenous wolves.

So You think that Hoggard is a wolf in sheeps clothing? wouldn't that be going too far? i mean all the promotion of the KJV Bible, the free DVD's, exposing freemasonry, exposing witchcraft and what he has done for the last 12+ years and he is compared to Billy Graham?


Title: Re: hoggard
Post by: Mark on July 20, 2012, 07:20:16 am
So You think that Hoggard is a wolf in sheeps clothing? wouldn't that be going too far? i mean all the promotion of the KJV Bible, the free DVD's, exposing freemasonry, exposing witchcraft and what he has done for the last 12+ years and he is compared to Billy Graham?

I attached this to the hoggard thread, so read through this, and give a listen for yourself. ultimately you will have to decide for yourself. Everyone can have some good sounding stuff, but Jesus went against the Government of his day which was wrong. And hoggard is telling his people to submit to a wrong government. That is wrong and is not what Romans 13 teaches, and isnt what the Lord did or taught. Hoggard says He will protect his people? I mean he actually says that. Protect them how? Help load them up on the busses? keep them calm as they are led away, help quite the kids as they are processed? Do you see what i mean. This is Clergy responce stuff from 501c3 pastors.

And another thing, he comes from a very small church. Where did all his money come from? Once you start digging into this guy more questions start popping up. Like i said I really liked him, and he said some odd off the topic things before, but i just ignored them. But after this, i really started to pay attention and i just dont feel drawn to him. The Spirit pushes me away from him, and i will follow the Spirit.


Title: Re: hoggard
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 20, 2012, 09:00:45 am
So You think that Hoggard is a wolf in sheeps clothing? wouldn't that be going too far? i mean all the promotion of the KJV Bible, the free DVD's, exposing freemasonry, exposing witchcraft and what he has done for the last 12+ years and he is compared to Billy Graham?

Well, even Billy Graham said in one of his books over how Satan's minions have infiltrated the churches, Sunday schools, seminaries, et al. Yes, this 33rd Degree Mason wolf actually said this, believe it or not, in one of his books(ie-none of the other so-called "influential evangelicals" would think twice about saying this). But that doesn't give Graham a free pass for all the other wicked things he's done(which is countless and would have to write up pages on a Word doc to do so).

Again, no, I don't think Hoggard is this wolf church infiltrator(or whatever enemy you want to call him), however, I do feel his temptations over money has gotten the very best of him. Like Mark said, he's sold himself out with 501c3, and to boot for someone who comes from a small church...somehow he's come up with pricey ways to do his Watchman Broadcasts, write books, etc(ie-all the technology he uses to design his Watchman Broadcasts just don't look cheap).

Either way, he should be avoided.


Title: Re: hoggard
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 20, 2012, 12:59:53 pm
Hoggard also celebrates Xmas and Ishtar at his church - like other churchianity pastors, he somehow spins that Romans passage where "we shouldn't judge another over a holy day" to rationalize celebrating these holidays. For someone who's KJV-only, there's no excuse to somehow not know these are pagan holidays.

Even DA Waite has warned about these pagan holidays.(no, not putting him on a pedestial, but read my above comments about him)


Title: Re: hoggard
Post by: Christian40 on July 22, 2012, 12:29:12 am
And another thing, he comes from a very small church. Where did all his money come from?

i dont know, how is it that he has alot of money? we dont really know.

Quote
Once you start digging into this guy more questions start popping up. Like i said I really liked him, and he said some odd off the topic things before, but i just ignored them.

ok so it is all okay to investigate him, i know he has strange views on Romans 13 yes that is strange, but of course we are Bereans here and remember that Peter wasn't perfect either, we cant expect our brethren and sisters to be perfect people in their doctrine. And even if it turns out that Hoggard is a wolf, i believe that his sermons with the KJB verses in them will be of much benefit to the watchers.

Quote
But after this, i really started to pay attention and i just dont feel drawn to him. The Spirit pushes me away from him, and i will follow the Spirit.

Ok yesterday i came across a Hoggard DVD and played it it is called "The Triple Helix the de-evolution of man" and i turned up the volume, and it had alot of KJV Bible verses in it and i only got to see half of it but i really enjoyed the video, it was very uplifting to my soul and i was thankful that i had watched it. I got that same good feeling that comes to me that comes when i preach the Gospel, i know dont trust your feelings but to be honest i feel really good when i preach and when i hear a KJV based sermon.




Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on July 22, 2012, 04:05:52 am
Hey, if you like him than thats fine. As i said he put out some good info.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Degruix on August 01, 2012, 10:57:38 am
Some of you insist Pastor Mike is 501c3.

Do you have proof? If you do, I would like to see it.


If you go to http://blip.tv/pastormikeonline and to to his

teaching of 6/16/11 at around the 40 minute mark he says his church is NOT 501c3.

I will make it even easier for you, here is the direct link to that study:

http://blip.tv/pastormikeonline/pastor-mike-online-06-16-11-5308830. Open it and go to the

40 minute mark and see for yourself.




On the other hand,

Quote
I listened to the entire sermon once and the first 25 minutes a second time.

Much like the vague insinuations against Chuck Missler, this seems to me to be another mole hill made into a mountain.


What I got from the sermon was trust God and submit to the laws of the land.

Did he say if the government tells you to kill your child then you do so, no he did not.

Did he say take the mark of the beast when given the choice between that and death, no he did not.

He said trust God and submit. He did not say submit no matter what.

I do not like many of the laws any more then most people, but there is a difference between a law that is unjust and a law that is unGodly. We each have to pray about and study the Bible about any law we think is unGodly. 

If you trust God then why are you afraid of men? You already know what the future holds, it is prewritten by God. You are going to either be Raptured or die. No one wants to be persecuted, but Christians are going to be increasingly persecuted and put upon. The devil rules this world, that is just how it is. As Christians you already know this. Fear is just your sinful flesh talking, as Born Again Christians we should all be striving to keep our eyes on God and doing His will, not what is about to happen to us down here.

I will go back listening to Pasture Mike's audios now, I have listened to almost everything on his website except his sermons but I still have about 1/5 or so of them to go.

Mike Hoggard is my favorite teacher, his verse by verse study of Revelation is awesome.

I would also like to thank Scot Johnson for exposing me to him.

Its more that he didn't say any of that stuff. If the Gov. shows up and tells me to go to a FEMA camp. Im not going. If they say we have to turn in all our Bibles are you? I mean the Church has a long history of NOT doing that. It is his total endorsement to blindly follow the government that bothers me. Its a secular worldly government, and not once did he say anything about not following anything they have to say. Dear Lord he even came out and said we should have more rules and laws. You have to be kidding me.

Quote
He did not say submit no matter what.

Basically he did say that. Not once did he give an example of not following the Gov, although the Bible is rife with it.


Where did he say it? I have already asked for this once, and no one answered me. Give me the minute mark

to fast forward to and I will.


You can not give me a minute to go to can you..... because it does not exist.





Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 01, 2012, 11:30:26 am
^^

For the record, I don't have anything against Mike Hoggard(I was just concerned over a Romans 13 sermon he gave last year) - if it's the case that Pastor Hoggard's church is NOT a 501c3, then this is GREAT news! Seriously, it's not like I was beating my chest and celebrating over some guy's church (supposedly)being yoked up with the government. Again, Hoggard's church not being a 501c3 is GREAT News! And if any other pastor in this country wants to come clean and dismantle his government-incorporated church, then AWESOME!




Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 01, 2012, 11:54:34 am
OK, I just listened at the 40 minute mark - Hoggard said it's not a 501c3, however, he said he had to file Articles of Incorporation paperwork with the state of Missouri(with the STATE of Missouri ONLY) in order to have a bank account, and donations to his church are tax deductible. He said that MO recognized his church as a church(if I understand this correctly). He also said the church was founded in the early 70's(before he got there, that is).

40 minute mark
http://blip.tv/pastormikeonline/pastor-mike-online-06-16-11-5308830

OK, without getting into a discussion about church buildings here - this whole 501c3 thing, I'll admit, is a bit confusing to me. Peter Kennshaw(sp) said that non-501c3 churches can still get tax deductions off donations, however, Greg Dixon said the federal government can still find excuses to recognize your church as just that if there are numerous things you do(ie-the church has a bank account, by laws, accept tax-deductible gifts, just to name a few).

Even though Hoggard cleared it up that his church is not a 501c3, at the same time, with the rest of what he said I'm still not clear with...could you guys listen at the 40 minute mark and tell me what you think? Thanks!


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on August 01, 2012, 01:15:30 pm
If that entity is incorporated, it's the same difference. He's still looking to the government for authorization to preach the gospel, is he not? Who cares what the government says about what a church is? Who cares? Those who care about the love of money, and that comes in the form of setting up their little groups so they can get "tax deductions".

It's the love of money that churches are incorporated, whatever type corp they are. Doing so makes them subject to the government. If they don't comply with Caesar, then they lose their tax status and could go to jail for tax evasion.

Current tax law does not require a "church" to incorporate as a non-profit. It's a given status in the tax code that is verified at tax filing time.

Sorry, Hoggard is not to be trusted or listened to.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Degruix on August 01, 2012, 02:02:39 pm
Quote
If that entity is incorporated, it's the same difference. He's still looking to the government for authorization to preach the gospel, is he not?

If you believe being tax exempt is the same as the irs or cia writing his sermons for him you go right ahead and believe. Fortunately for the rest of the world that particular belief of yours is ridicules. The worst the government can do is revoke his tax exempt status.


Quote
Sorry, Hoggard is not to be trusted or listened to.

Once again, I see no one can give a reason why Pasture Mike is bad.


I guess I was expecting to much from a "Christian" forum when I thought it would have a higher burden of

proof than "he's bad because I don't trust him, and, and, he's, he's.... INCORPORATED!!!".





Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on August 01, 2012, 02:06:28 pm
Is this biblical enough for you?...

"Thus saith the LORD; Cursed [be] the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD." Jeremiah 17:5 (KJB)



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Degruix on August 01, 2012, 02:27:06 pm
Quote
"Thus saith the LORD; Cursed [be] the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD." Jeremiah 17:5 (KJB)

That is very Biblical.


How does it prove Pasture Mike is bad?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on August 01, 2012, 02:49:01 pm
"[Be] of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits." Romans 12:16 (KJB)

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Romans 14:5 (KJB)

10   Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 
11   For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 
12   Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 
13   Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 (KJB)


19   Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 
20   But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 
21   If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work. 
22   Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 
23   But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 
24   And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, 
25   In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 
26   And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 
2 Timothy 2:19-26 (KJB)


"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1 (KJB)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 01, 2012, 03:25:14 pm
Heb 2:4  God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Heb 2:5  For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Heb 2:6  But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7  Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Degruix on August 01, 2012, 03:58:07 pm
Quote
Posted by: BornAgain2
Insert Quote
Heb 2:4  God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Heb 2:5  For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Heb 2:6  But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7  Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Posted on: Today at 02:49:01 pm
 Posted by: Kilika
Insert Quote
"[Be] of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits." Romans 12:16 (KJB)

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Romans 14:5 (KJB)

10   Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 
11   For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 
12   Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 
13   Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 (KJB)

19   Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 
20   But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 
21   If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work. 
22   Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 
23   But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 
24   And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, 
25   In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 
26   And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 
2 Timothy 2:19-26 (KJB)

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1 (KJB)


What does this have to do with my question?


How is Pasture Mike bad?


If your answer to "how is Pasture Mike bad?" is, "he is just bad and I don't like him", that is ok with me.

I am just wanting clarity, if you do not have a clear answer, just say so.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 01, 2012, 04:04:59 pm

What does this have to do with my question?


How is Pasture Mike bad?


If your answer to "how is Pasture Mike bad?" is, "he is just bad and I don't like him", that is ok with me.

I am just wanting clarity, if you do not have a clear answer, just say so.



We just clarified it by putting out scripture. Read them, and meditate on them.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on August 01, 2012, 05:26:25 pm
Mike Hoggards church BETHEL FREE WILL BAPTIST CHURCH OF FESTUS, MISSOURI and its 2 other names, and 3 other organizations are filled as Non-Profit Corporation with the Missouri Secretary of State. This virtually guarantees a 501c3 filling with the IRS.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Degruix on August 02, 2012, 09:12:04 am
Quote
We just clarified it by putting out scripture. Read them, and meditate on them.

I have read them, but I did not see anything that has to do with Pasture Mike not being Biblical or anything

referencing 501c3.

So basically your answer is "I think he is 501c3 and that is bad, even though he says he
is not 501c3 I do not believe him and even if he is not 501c3 he has filed papers with the
state of Missouri to be tax exempt and that makes him bad"

My answer to your opinion is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Now I will give you a few scriptures to meditate on yourself.


Matthew 22:17-21

Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, [ye] hypocrites?

Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription?

They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.


Since I rather doubt this website is paid for by barter, everyone here is using the same corrupt system, the

same dirty money, lives in the same evil country, on the same fallen planet as everyone else. Since the

answer to my last question has boiled down to "I said so"I have a new question . How are you Kilika and

you BornAgain2 any better than Pasture Mike and the rest of us poor sinners who are just doing the best we

can in this life?




Quote
Mike Hoggards church BETHEL FREE WILL BAPTIST CHURCH OF FESTUS, MISSOURI and its 2 other names, and 3 other organizations are filled as Non-Profit Corporation with the Missouri Secretary of State. This virtually guarantees a 501c3 filling with the I

Pasture Mike's second audio in the series after the 6/16/11 audio also has a reference to 501c3. In the

audio of 6/23/11 he specifically states his Church is not 501c3 at about the 2 minute mark. He goes on to

rant about 501c3 a little. Here is the link, not that it will matter because on this forum he is bad because

"groupthink" indicates he is bad.

http://blip.tv/pastormikeonline/pastor-mike-online-06-23-11-5322098






Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 02, 2012, 09:23:06 am
Jesus Christ told his disciples "Feed my sheep". ANY pastor that has to get a license from the government(in this case filing Articles of Incorporation with the state) is NOT doing any favors to their flock. As a matter of fact, they are hurting their flock more than they are helping them.

Believe me, I've sat in the pews of this system since I was a kid in the early 80's, and the leaven is very obvious. And this isn't a Pastor Mike issue, it's an issue with 99% of churches in America today b/c either 1) Their greed for money, 2) Their heavy lack for discernment, or 3) Their willing ignorance.

Joh 6:24  When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
Joh 6:25  And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Joh 6:26  Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Joh 6:27  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on August 02, 2012, 10:00:17 am

Pasture Mike's second audio in the series after the 6/16/11 audio also has a reference to 501c3. In the

audio of 6/23/11 he specifically states his Church is not 501c3 at about the 2 minute mark. He goes on to

rant about 501c3 a little. Here is the link, not that it will matter because on this forum he is bad because

"groupthink" indicates he is bad.

http://blip.tv/pastormikeonline/pastor-mike-online-06-23-11-5322098


Your point? The church is registered as NON PROFIT with the secretary of state. That requires a 501c3 filling. sorry you cant accept that. Look i liked Pastor Mike, some of his teachings were very good, others were very screwball. The guy came out and said in his Romans 13 teaching that HE would protect his church and that they should trust him. Sorry, but that is right out of the Governments clergy response team hand book.

You can find likes and faults with everyone, i wont argue that. But its that statement from Pastor Mike that did it for me. Your more than welcome to like and follow him.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 02, 2012, 12:06:38 pm
I listened to what he said at the 2 minute mark - he said his church is not 501c3, but at the same time he doesn't think it's a bad thing? ??? He said if you send your money to his and other "good" churches, then it means it won't go to the government meaning it's a good thing? ???

And to boot, he also said he gets a salary(which is why his church is incorporated with the state of MO). Uhhh...for someone who's KJV-only, shouldn't he know that Jesus Christ spoke AGAINST hirelings?(ie-hireling isn't a bad word - it just means that you're getting paid to do a job. But in ministry, this should NOT be the case)

Yeah, I would stray far away as possible from this guy. And for that matter too, KJV-only churches that are 501c3 are no better than all the other non-KJV churches, b/c they've been leavened.

Joh 10:7  Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8  All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9  I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 10:10  The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.
Joh 10:11  I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12  But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 10:13  The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
Joh 10:14  I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15  As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16  And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
Joh 10:17  Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18  No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father
.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on August 02, 2012, 12:23:45 pm
Quote
How are you Kilika and

you BornAgain2 any better than Pasture Mike and the rest of us poor sinners who are just doing the best we

can in this life?

We are not better. Your missing the point. Now your being provocative. Those who know the truth know the we are free from the law of sin and death, as Jesus Christ is in us, we having the mind of Christ. THose that would be greatest are to humble themselves as servants to the younger. We all are to humble ourselves before God, not take up titles and college degrees and proclaim ourselves as experts in theology. We are to humble ourselves and take always the low seat that the Lord may exhault us in His time.

It's your manner of spirit that I rebuke. Humble yourself, and quit promoting men, and preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Degruix on August 02, 2012, 03:37:09 pm
Quote
Jesus Christ told his disciples "Feed my sheep". ANY pastor that has to get a license from the government(in this case filing Articles of Incorporation with the state) is NOT doing any favors to their flock. As a matter of fact, they are hurting their flock more than they are helping them.

Believe me, I've sat in the pews of this system since I was a kid in the early 80's, and the leaven is very obvious. And this isn't a Pastor Mike issue, it's an issue with 99% of churches in America today b/c either 1) Their greed for money, 2) Their heavy lack for discernment, or 3) Their willing ignorance.

Finally an answer, kinda, sorta. Pastor Mike is a bad Pastor because his Church is incorporated. Thank you for finally getting around to answering my question of why do you believe Pastor Mike bad.


Quote
Mike Hoggards church BETHEL FREE WILL BAPTIST CHURCH OF FESTUS, MISSOURI and its 2 other names, and 3 other organizations are filled as Non-Profit Corporation with the Missouri Secretary of State. This virtually guarantees a 501c3 filling with the I

Pasture Mike's second audio in the series after the 6/16/11 audio also has a reference to 501c3. In the

audio of 6/23/11 he specifically states his Church is not 501c3 at about the 2 minute mark. He goes on to

rant about 501c3 a little. Here is the link, not that it will matter because on this forum he is bad because

"groupthink" indicates he is bad.

http://blip.tv/pastormikeonline/pastor-mike-online-06-23-11-532209

Your point? The church is registered as NON PROFIT with the secretary of state. That requires a 501c3 filling. sorry you cant accept that. Look i liked Pastor Mike, some of his teachings were very good, others were very screwball. The guy came out and said in his Romans 13 teaching that HE would protect his church and that they should trust him. Sorry, but that is right out of the Governments clergy response team hand book.

You can find likes and faults with everyone, i wont argue that. But its that statement from Pastor Mike that did it for me. Your more than welcome to like and follow him.

My point was Mike's Church has been accused multiple times on being 501c3 without any proof that it is. I have provided 2 links to videos where he says specifically that his Church is not 501c3.


Quote
Yeah, I would stray far away as possible from this guy. And for that matter too, KJV-only churches that are 501c3 are no better than all the other non-KJV churches, b/c they've been leavened.

Please prove his Church is 501c3. Please show me one, just one instance of leaven in ANY of his audios or videos.


Quote
We are not better. Your missing the point

Ok, enlighten me, what was your point?


Quote
It's your manner of spirit that I rebuke. Humble yourself, and quit promoting men, and preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

What manner of spirit?

When did I promote Pastor Mike? The only thing I have said in this entire thread that was positive of Pastor Mike was in post #25 "Mike Hoggard is my favorite teacher, his verse by verse study of Revelation is awesome."

All I have done is ask questions, the first of which, back in post #46 was "where did Mike say "blindly follow the government" is still unanswered.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 02, 2012, 03:49:46 pm
Quote
Please prove his Church is 501c3. Please show me one, just one instance of leaven in ANY of his audios or videos.

Have you read any of the previous posts? If any church or charity organization files an Articles of Incorporation with their respective state, then they ARE a 501c3 b/c the state has given them their right to exist.

Nothing personal or anything, but you need to research these things on your own instead of taking what everyone says at face value. And yes, I am guilty of this too(where at times I will take everything someone says at face value b/c I can be a bit naive to think that person is 100% trustworthy).

Pro 14:15  The simple believeth every word: but the prudent [man] looketh well to his going.

Pro 1:5  A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
Pro 1:6  To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.


Act_17:11  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Also, if Pastor Mike denies his church being a 501c3, then why did he say there's nothing wrong with a 501c3 church(as long as they're KJV-only)?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on August 03, 2012, 01:28:26 am
okay so i'm thinking that pastor Mike is 501c3 (to be honest i haven't seen him say that or admit it) but he produces brilliant videos about the KJV Bible, i was listening to a talk about that Holmes murderer 29/7 study and it was amazing how Hoggard put the numerics in it, it is funny and strange that while a person like Hoggard is said to be patriotic and 501c3 that he produces audios and that greatly increase a persons knowledge in the KJV Bible. Does one think that God could use such a person as Hoggard to help people lay up further knowledge about the KJV and current events? i think so


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on August 03, 2012, 03:49:20 am
Quote
What manner of spirit?

When did I promote Pastor Mike? The only thing I have said in this entire thread that was positive of Pastor Mike was in post #25 "Mike Hoggard is my favorite teacher,

Now your backpeddling. I've read your posts, ALL of them. You've been promoting these men since you first started posting here. Defending men/Hoggard is exactly what you've been doing in this very thread.

Your posts give you away.

"...be not ye the servants of men"


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on August 03, 2012, 04:07:23 am
Please prove his Church is 501c3.


Here is the link that shows the Church is registered non profit.

https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/soskb/Corp.asp?646691

Him being a religious non profit, means he has to file a 501c3, no way around it.

Here is the IRS link for charities and non-profit

http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=169727,00.html

so YOU prove he isnt other than him saying so.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Degruix on August 03, 2012, 09:18:45 am
Quote
Quote
What manner of spirit?

When did I promote Pastor Mike? The only thing I have said in this entire thread that was positive of Pastor Mike was in post #25 "Mike Hoggard is my favorite teacher,

Now your backpeddling. I've read your posts, ALL of them. You've been promoting these men since you first started posting here. Defending men/Hoggard is exactly what you've been doing in this very thread.

Your posts give you away.

"...be not ye the servants of men"

Accusing me of backpedaling is not an answer to my questions but that is ok.



Quote
Quote from: Degruix on August 02, 2012, 03:37:09 pm
Please prove his Church is 501c3.

Here is the link that shows the Church is registered non profit.

https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/soskb/Corp.asp?646691

Him being a religious non profit, means he has to file a 501c3, no way around it.

Here is the IRS link for charities and non-profit

http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=169727,00.html

so YOU prove he isnt other than him saying so.


Your first link is a document filed with the State of Missouri listing Bethel Free Will Baptist Church of Festus

Missouri as a non-profit corporation. The emphasis is on State, this document  has nothing to do with the

feds. Your second link is a faq sheet for tax exempt organizations that meet irs 501c3 criteria. This link does

not indicate what it takes to meet those requirements.


I on the other hand have found the actual irs tax code that controls 501c3 status. The link is

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/508.

This is on the Cornell Law school website. The relevant part of the tax code is:

(a)  New organizations must notify Secretary that they are applying for recognition of section 501(c)(3) status
Except as provided in subsection (c), an organization organized after October 9, 1969, shall not be treated as an organization described in section 501 (c)(3)—

The important part is the phrase "Except as provided in subsection (c)".

Subsection c says:

(c)  Exceptions
(1)  Mandatory exceptions
Subsections (a) and (b) shall not apply to—
(A) churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches, or
(B) any organization which is not a private foundation (as defined in section 509 (a)) and the gross receipts of which in each taxable year are normally not more than $5,000.

The important part of this is the phrase "mandatory exceptions" and the word "churches". This means a

church is explicitly exempted from 501c3 status unless the church chooses to not be exempt. So a church

can be tax exempt and non-501c3.


With this information I will take Mike's word for his non-501c3 status.


Thank you for this conversation, it has been very informative.






Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on August 03, 2012, 09:24:20 am
If it is registered with the STATE as Non-propfit, and being a religous roganization, it automatically gets 501c3 status. So as you can see my delima here as it is kind of hard to get around this. Especially as he IS regestered as non profit, and that church has been registered non profit since the 1970's. So unless he is severly going way out of their way since he took over, they are 501c3.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Degruix on August 03, 2012, 09:56:33 am
Quote
If it is registered with the STATE as Non-propfit, and being a religous roganization, it automatically gets 501c3 status.

This is your opinion, not what the tax code says.


Quote
So as you can see my delima here as it is kind of hard to get around this.

The only dilemma I see is people making statements and not having facts to back them up.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on August 03, 2012, 10:06:24 am
This is your opinion, not what the tax code says.

Uhm, no its not. That is what the IRS says, on their website. sorry, you dont have to like it, but thats how it is.

The only dilemma I see is people making statements and not having facts to back them up.

Uhm, again, i have backed it with facts.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Degruix on August 03, 2012, 12:45:57 pm
Quote
Quote
If it is registered with the STATE as Non-propfit, and being a religous roganization, it automatically gets 501c3 status.

Maybe I am just slow, but I did not read that anywhere in the law.

If what you say is true, copy and paste the relevant part in a new post.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 03, 2012, 01:24:23 pm
Maybe I am just slow, but I did not read that anywhere in the law.

If what you say is true, copy and paste the relevant part in a new post.

FYI, I don't know if you've heard of Greg Dixon, but he once was in this web many years ago, and when he got out, he ended up not only losing everything, but the Feds came by sending in the SWAT teams and tearing down the building. Yes, what Dixon did was admirable, and to boot he's warning other pastors to not get into this, but at the same time b/c the state gave him his right to exist, they also had rights to all his church's assets when he wanted to dissolve. Even John Ashcroft labeled his ministry a terrorist organization. Oh yeah...wasn't George W. Bush supposed to be this faithful born-again Christian that would lead morals back to this country? ::)

I had a few emails with him 2 years ago when Scott and others recommended him(Dixon is a very nice guy) - and he gave me more info over how the IRS has gotten more draconian in terms of cracking down on 501c3 churches(ie-they continue to make more laws and regulations against them).

The IRS is linked with alot of the major global banking elite like the IMF, which is linked to to the United Nations...you guys can follow the trail...

Here's Pastor Dixon's web site ministry, he explains all...
http://www.unregisteredbaptistfellowship.com/


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on August 03, 2012, 02:43:10 pm
Maybe I am just slow, but I did not read that anywhere in the law.

If what you say is true, copy and paste the relevant part in a new post.



well its there on the IRS website. Ive posted it, your gonna have to look it up yourself, and not take my word for it.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Degruix on August 03, 2012, 03:29:45 pm
Quote
well its there on the IRS website. Ive posted it, your gonna have to look it up yourself, and not take my word for it.

I do not take your word for it. I have already dissected your links and there was nothing relevant on your irs link.

My irs link on the other hand which showed the relevant 501c3 tax law clearly indicates churches are specifically exempted from said 501c3 status unless whoever is in control of said church wants to be under the 501c3 umbrella.


So you can cite imaginary data that only you can see, or you can post pertinent data for everyone to see as I have.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on August 03, 2012, 03:43:00 pm
Quote
Recognition of Tax-Exempt Status
Automatic Exemption for Churches

Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section
501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and
are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of
tax-exempt status from the IRS.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

this topic is now done with.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on August 04, 2012, 03:56:18 am
I agree. Topic locked.

We stand by our assesment of Hoggard, and the IRS.

Go argue elsewhere please.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on December 27, 2012, 06:22:54 am
I’ve been digging into some of Hoggards teachings, and he adds a LOT of pagan and supernatural and defiantly a lot of Masonic teachings in his stuff. I’m really starting to believe that this guy is full 100% disinfo artist. In his vid about Sandy Hook he sits and claims he’s all for the second amendment, and that he has and does carry a concealed weapon. Yet he is all for following the Government.

He is always adding up numbers as if they mean something. And he just gives meanings to those numbers and doesn’t say where the meaning come from. Like 3 means sin. ??? Where is that at? And I would still love to know where all of the money comes from? His church is very tiny.

Found this on a different site, good analysis...

Quote
mattfivefour 
Moderator Join Date Jul 2008
Location MidWest
Posts 19,984  Re: Mike Hoggard

The problem with Mike Hoggard is that he preaches so many things right. But has so many other things absolutely wrong. And that is a very dangerous combination. Truth and error mixed usually only result in error. It's kind of like algebra: no matter how large the positive number is and how small the negative number, any positive multiplied by a negative will ALWAYS wind up negative.


I don't have time to go into a whole expose of his teachings, but here are just a couple of points.

He believes you get special revelation from scripture. Not merely knowledge but special revelation of hidden things. And God will make you pay a steep price for it. He does not believe in Bible Commentaries or Study bibles. He says he studies the bible with a calculator in his other hand. Apparently he thinks all of the numbers in the bible are there for a hidden reason and we can calculate them out in order to get hidden knowledge. Interestingly, the number 3 in the Bible that represents God, Hoggard says actually represents sin!

He also manipulates data to achieve his desired goals, just like Harold Camping. Here's one example: He says the number 22 in the bible represents revelation because God wrote the Book of Revelation through John using 22 chapters. Of course, this ignores the fact that the Bible was written with NO chapters. It was a Roman Catholic archbishop, Stephen Langton, who first divided the NT into chapters in the 12th century AD ... more than a thousand years after it was written.


Here's another: Hoggard says that as he read the bible he noticed the word "compass" used. Because a compass is a key image in Masonry, he believed this might be a hidden reference to Masonry. He counted up the number of times the word is used and found it totaled 39 times. 39 is 3 times 13 ... and since 3 and 13 both represent sin and evil in the bible, this confirmed for him that the word compass was a reference to Masonry, that God hid in the Bible. The problem is that while there are 39 references in English, in Greek (in which the NT was written) there are different words in different places, so the total does not add up to 39. The only way his system works is if the bible were given to man in English. And that brings us to his next belief.


He believes that all other bibles other than the KJV are of Satan. I know a very few others agree with him, especially among certain Evangelical and Fellowship Baptist groups. (I wonder what that means for people who do not speak English and have bibles in their own language.) But he extends that to the original manuscripts, too. He says you may only study the bible out of the KJV, because that is the bible God gave to man!!! You are never to go to the original Hebrew or Greek. And if you find a preacher or teacher who explains a verse using the Greek or Hebrew, avoid them.


One last warning. Listen to his sermons, and you will rarely hear him expounding on the literal meaning of Scripture. He spiritualizes everything according to his own interpretations. Therefore Scripture does not necessarily means what it plainly says, but what he interprets it to say. That is a dangerous teacher to sit under!

Incidentally, if you check him out with the Who's Who of Bible Prophecy he does not rate a green apple. He gets only a yellow one. (Frankly, I would have thought red would be more accurate!) Anyway, this man is a master of eisegesis (reading ideas into scripture) rather than exegesis (reading ideas out of scripture). It appears that he chiefly approaches the bible with an idea and looks for evidence to prove he is right. However he is an engaging preacher and an effective communicator. He definitely scratches itching ears.

My advice? Stay clear.
http://www.raptureforums.com/forum/bible-study-q/70043-mike-hoggard.html


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on December 27, 2012, 07:05:31 am
he has a teaching where he talks about Atlantis as a real place, and the 10 horns of Daniel are the 10 kings of Atlantis. Does anyone know which teaching this is? I would love to hear it just to confirm what is being said.

But if true, that is 100% new age. There is no Atlantis, never was. Well not in the sence that the new-agers have spun the history of it, to which Hoggard is presenting as true. He does this all the time in his videos and stuff, just adds stuff in and hopes to not get called on it.

http://bibleconundrumsandcontroversy.blogspot.com/2012/03/mike-hoggard-anti-apostasy-teacher-or.html

worth the read...

Hoggard is very worth looking into...


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on December 27, 2012, 09:38:03 am
Mark, did you get that post above from the Rapture Forums message forum?

The reason why I'm asking is b/c I'm familiar with mattfivefour, one of the moderators of that forum - not that I'm calling him out single handedly, but as a WHOLE the Rapture Ready/Rapture Forums site/message forums is opposition-controlled/disinfo. They are runned by Todd Strandberg and Terry James.

I was a member of both forums for a good while - no, I have no problems with their pre-trib position(I'll admit, I'm starting to buy into it, but will discuss it later). But there are many other aspects where they know how to control and deceive all the members of that forum(and site) - one being that instead of letting everyone have the freedom of calling out the entire Illuminati NWO system as a whole, everyone is pretty much forced to believe the LIE that Christians are commanded to support Republican candidates. Even mattfivefour was leading this charge throughout the 2012 election campaign in terms of blindly supporting Mitt Romney(leading everyone to believe that while Romney is a Mormon, he still has GOP moral and ethical values to preserve the sanctity of life and enforce the laws of the country, saying how Christians would abide by Romans 13 if they vote for Romney).

Uhm...they seem to forget that Obamacare was modeled after Romneycare, which funded abortions. Romney supports gun control, NDAA, banker bailouts, etc, etc. So ultimately, pretty much from what I've observed this election year, posters on both forums that came out to expose Romney and the NWO system ended up getting ganged up on, shouted down, and ultimately banned. So basically it's a sin for Christians to believe in conspiracy theories, but we have to blindly support these back-stabbing GOP candidates?

And pretty much in their political forums, they're always calling out Obama/Democrats - yes, that is all and good, but they're forgetting all the parts over how John Boehner, for example, has endorsed alot of Obama's liberal agendas like Obamacare, raising taxes on the "rich", how more Republicans are getting on the gun control/illegal immigration reform bandwagons, etc. Alot of this has to do with the mods and a few regulars steering the ship this way.

And their Apostasy forums are VERY limited, to say the least - it's very good that they expose the Emergent Church. But that is AS FAR as they go. Nothing about 501c3, calling out other perverted versions(with the exception of the Message bible/T-NIV), Hal Lindsey(they consider him a hero even though he openly endorsed the Pope), David Reagan(even though he endorses Pat Robertson), Jack Van Impe, John MacArthur, Paul Washer, David Jeremiah, etc. Come to think of it, one time I called out 501c3, and was accused of being a conspiracy theorist.

This mattfivefour guy also mocked KJV-onlyists, which I have a problem with as well. He also claims he works for(and I believe owns) a news media company. Aren't the great majority of news media outlets runned by Satan's minions? Just saying. And no, MFF isn't the only one, there's others on there like Chris, Buzzardhut, etc they continually stir up the board with propaganda to get everyone to look at Obama being the LONE enemy.(ie-Buzzardhut says to beware of Obama's created social justice program, but everyone SHOULD know that social justice was created by the Jesuits a long time ago)

With that being said - I only skimmed what he said about Mike Hoggard. He could be right, but at the same time, Hoggard HAS attended conferences with Todd Strandberg, Terry James, Hal Lindsey, etc. Yes, Hoggard is dangerous, as we've documented here. If he is dangerous like MFF says, then why in the world are the Rapture Ready/Forums people attending conferences with him?

Well, Jesus Christ says in I John that we will know it is the last time when there are MANY antichrists.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on December 27, 2012, 09:52:42 am
what he posted is the same stuff I have been picking up from Hoggard myself. I have a bunch more stuff, just havent posted yet.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on December 27, 2012, 10:00:52 am
what he posted is the same stuff I have been picking up from Hoggard myself. I have a bunch more stuff, just havent posted yet.

Yeah, that was the point I was getting at - I haven't listened to Hoggard in almost 2 years since he gave that "blindly follow the government" sermon, and the more I think about his presentations he does weekly, they were just TOO mind-blowing for my tastes(especially the numerology part), that I felt something felt wrong about him. Plus when he does his Sunday morning services, he screams over 1/2 of the time to the point where you just can't understand what he's saying. My previous pastor in New Orleans did that quite a bit, and it was over time since I left when I saw the rotten fruit in him(ie-when he would do media interviews, he would rarely, if never mention Jesus Christ, and one time said "dawning of a new day..."). I don't mind at all if a preacher preaches with passion, but screaming is not the fruit of the Spirit, as our speech has to be seasoned with grace and salt.

Overall, when we read our bibles, we let the Holy Spirit teach us, AND Jesus Christ says his yoke is light - having to delve into all of this numerology is a heavy burden, isn't it?

And yeah, for someone that has a tiny church, I wonder where he gets all of those resources to make DVDs, write books, travel to conferences, etc. Sure, he's a KJV-only guy, but at the same time, IF he's part of the occult, then I guess it would be no surprise that he knows ALOT about it.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on December 27, 2012, 10:07:54 am
he goes beyonf KJV, he KJV ONLY, as in its the only true inspired word. He even discounts the original manuscripts.

Hes mixing just too much occult and secret stuff into what he is saying and hoping people dont catch it.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on December 28, 2012, 12:01:40 am
He is always adding up numbers as if they mean something. And he just gives meanings to those numbers and doesn’t say where the meaning come from. Like 3 means sin. ??? Where is that at?

i know what he would say: Genesis 3 is about sin. There were 3 people on the cross including Jesus. Satan, the Antichrist and False prophet are 3 and sin.

And I would still love to know where all of the money comes from? His church is very tiny.

He says that he is poor and lives in a small house and that he has to pay the few people that work for him. i can only assume he is getting donations from across America and even outside America. On one of the latest teachings he said that he was responsible for paying his workers in other words it seemed he is short of money.

he goes beyond KJV, he KJV ONLY, as in its the only true inspired word. He even discounts the original manuscripts.

well i haven't heard him discount Bibles in other languages, i think he would say that the original manuscripts no longer exist, because he doesn't know Greek or Hebrew he focuses on the English.

I’ve been digging into some of Hoggards teachings, and he adds a LOT of pagan and supernatural and defiantly a lot of Masonic teachings in his stuff. I’m really starting to believe that this guy is full 100% disinfo artist. In his vid about Sandy Hook he sits and claims he’s all for the second amendment, and that he has and does carry a concealed weapon. Yet he is all for following the Government.

i would be really surprised if Hoggard supports Obama since i remember him speaking out against him. I'm not sure that he really does support the federal government.

Quote
One last warning. Listen to his sermons, and you will rarely hear him expounding on the literal meaning of Scripture. He spiritualizes everything according to his own interpretations. Therefore Scripture does not necessarily means what it plainly says, but what he interprets it to say. That is a dangerous teacher to sit under!

not true, Hoggard regularly goes into the literal meaning. i would like to know how Hoggard has to be put down, no he isn't perfect but he has alot of good stuff and he professionally focuses on biblical numerology which alot of people dont understand as yet.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on December 28, 2012, 03:56:59 am
i know what he would say: Genesis 3 is about sin. There were 3 people on the cross including Jesus. Satan, the Antichrist and False prophet are 3 and sin.

That makes no sense ay all, and is ascribing an authority that isn't there. The Trinity is made up of 3, so i say 3 is a holy number. Do you see how this works? He does that stuff all the time, and it is occultic.

He says that he is poor and lives in a small house and that he has to pay the few people that work for him. i can only assume he is getting donations from across America and even outside America. On one of the latest teachings he said that he was responsible for paying his workers in other words it seemed he is short of money.

He isnt poor, his suits and ties are expensive, he apparently eats well ans talked about it in the teaching after the sandy hook shooting. I would love to see his house and car, and im betting they sure arent second hand stuff. His church is very small according to the website, yet can fund all of his teachings, travels and show production? Half of his congregation must be millionaires.

well i haven't heard him discount Bibles in other languages, i think he would say that the original manuscripts no longer exist, because he doesn't know Greek or Hebrew he focuses on the English.

That isnt the way i get his KJV Onlyism, nut then again he could change his view, as i have already discovered that he changes his view to support what he wants to say. Like the rapture, supports it one time, is against it another. Wolves wear many masks to hide within the flock

i would be really surprised if Hoggard supports Obama since i remember him speaking out against him. I'm not sure that he really does support the federal government.

not true, Hoggard regularly goes into the literal meaning. i would like to know how Hoggard has to be put down, no he isn't perfect but he has alot of good stuff and he professionally focuses on biblical numerology which alot of people dont understand as yet.

constantly using his form of numerology to ascribe meaning when there isnt one, is not using the literal meaning of the passage. Just start listening to him, and the way he just wanders around, and you will start to see it.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on December 28, 2012, 05:15:44 am
Yeah, we definitely need to have a discussion on this one! I'll get the thread going...(starting with your last two posts Mark)

Literal versus Spiritual


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on December 28, 2012, 11:28:34 pm
Quote
He is attracting a bigger and bigger following, especially with people who are fed up with the apostasy in the church and are looking for some good old-fashioned Bible preaching. So what is the problem? The problem is, in the midst of gathering a major audience of Christians who are looking for someone to lead them out of apostasy, and are following him because of the strong stand he takes against apostasy, he is slowly and subtly introducing to them teachings that are not Scriptural. Because they are such little things within his sermons, nobody notices or gives it much thought, or they just let it pass like a blip on the screen, but when added up, it comes to a lot of things that are not correct. I also have concerns about the way he approaches his study of the Scripture, as well as the way he teaches it. I honestly see the beginnings of another Harold Camping in the making given enough time. http://bibleconundrumsandcontroversy.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/mike-hoggard-anti-apostasy-teacher-or.html

You have to be joking to compare Mike Hoggard with Harold Camping.

Quote
Pastor Hoggard does the same thing with numbers that he does with these “word” revelations. He draws conclusions about things by adding, or dividing, or doing other mathematical exercises with them, if required. In fact he stated that when he studies the Bible, he keeps the Bible in one hand and a calculator in the other, as numbers are so important. Really? I have never had to sit with a calculator in hand tallying up numbers to understand the Word of God. There are times when I see parallels between numbers, such as the twelve tribes, and the twelve disciples, or forty year wandering in the desert and forty days of the temptation of Christ, but I don't see the need to add, subtract, multiply, or divide them to reveal some secret hidden message or code in God's Word. I'm not saying there might not be some interesting things to learn, but the obsessive way in which he uses numbers to show him what passages mean is where I start seeing a problem. Harold Camping got off on this same tangent. Numbers became more important than simply reading what the Word said. Look where it led him. Hoggard seems to be taking this same route. In fact I question that he is using numbers in a proper way.

It's called Biblical numerology,

Ecc 7:27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Leviticus 25:52 And if there remain but few years unto the year of jubile, then he shall count with him, and according unto his years shall he give him again the price of his redemption.

There is nothing wrong with studying Biblical numerology and Hoggard is pretty much an expert, so was Bullinger and Dr Ivan Panin. Numbers have meaning in the Bible. Just think of the measurements that the Temple had to go by and the items in the Temple.

And also i believe that when Hoggard mentions "revelations" he is simply meaning something he has learnt from looking closely at the scripture. i think that the article written by Connie http://bibleconundrumsandcontroversy.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/mike-hoggard-anti-apostasy-teacher-or.html doesn't prove anything, he or she agrees with Hoggard and then they disagree where they like. i dont think it is a fair analysis of all of Hoggard's teachings.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Quote
i know what he would say: Genesis 3 is about sin. There were 3 people on the cross including Jesus. Satan, the Antichrist and False prophet are 3 and sin.

That makes no sense ay all, and is ascribing an authority that isn't there. The Trinity is made up of 3, so i say 3 is a holy number. Do you see how this works? He does that stuff all the time, and it is occultic.

umm no it is Biblical numerology

Quote
What is the King James Code?

If I had to describe the King James Code in a nutshell, I would do it this way. The King James Bible contains a system of numbers that are consistently linked with words or phrases in the scriptures. It is understood that the Bible can be comprehended on many levels. The more you study the Scriptures and become accustomed to them, the more you understand the Divine symbols of certain passages that you never saw before. These must always come as a product of Divine Revelation. Certain words and phrases take on a whole new meaning, never contradictory to any other passage in the Scriptures. As you study, you begin to see also that numbers seem to have a certain relevance in the Bible. Each number will have its own symbolic meaning. Things associated with completion or perfection will be linked with the number 7. Things associated with the sinfulness of man will be associated with the number 6, and so on.

What I have discovered, or rather, what the Lord has revealed, is that word and phrase occurrences in the King James Bible follow this same pattern. If a word or a phrase is added or omitted, this ruins the pattern. Could it be that this is why God commanded us not to add or take away from His Word? (Deut. 4:2, Rev. 22:18,19)

An example of how this works is found in the phrase "Holy Spirit". This phrase is found exactly 7 times in the King James Bible. This not only reveals the Divine nature of the Holy Spirit, but also reveals to us that the Bible is a very unique Book. It contains the very signature of God himself, for, it would be impossible for man to plan a book, and a system of numbers, in this fashion.

Please read these pages carefully and with an open mind. It may benefit you to acquire some knowledge of the use of numbers in the Bible, but a mastery of the subject is not necessary. For those who are not familiar at all with the usage of Bible numerics, I include a reference guide in this document.

Numbers are one of the few things in this world that can truly reflect the nature of God in several ways. First, numbers are infinite. We will never count the last number, because it does not exist. Not only are they infinite in positive form, but in negative form as well. This perfectly describes a God who is eternal; a God who always was and always shall be.

Numbers are constant. They never change. In this world, languages have changed, people have changed, the world itself is in a constant state of change, but numbers remain the same. 2+2 always equals 4 and always will. There is no way it will change.

Numbers are one of the few things, according to Revelation 21, that will accompany us from this world to the next. They are as eternal and infinite as our Mighty God is.

This is why His Word is a word of numbers. Please read the following carefully. All of this research can be easily replicated using a Bible search program. I recommend using QuickVerse for Windows. It is the program that I used in gathering this information. A copy will cost about $10-$15 dollars. QuickVerse will allow you to search for a word or phrase, and then list exactly how many times that word or phrase is found, and show you how many verses it is found in. Not all Bible search programs will do this. Also, QuickVerse comes with a master list of all the words in the AV, along with the number of times they are found in the text.

As I said earlier, this information came on me rather quick. Although I have made several attempts at proofreading and double-checking the various patterns for accuracy, there may be an occasion where I have made an error. Let me assure you, that any errors in this book are merely the result of human frailty and not sinister manipulation, just to prove a point. http://www.biblebelievers.com/Hoggard_KJV_Code.html

Quote
He says that he is poor and lives in a small house and that he has to pay the few people that work for him. i can only assume he is getting donations from across America and even outside America. On one of the latest teachings he said that he was responsible for paying his workers in other words it seemed he is short of money.

He isnt poor, his suits and ties are expensive, he apparently eats well ans talked about it in the teaching after the sandy hook shooting. I would love to see his house and car, and im betting they sure arent second hand stuff. His church is very small according to the website, yet can fund all of his teachings, travels and show production? Half of his congregation must be millionaires.

that is exaggerating, it is amazing how God funds ministries in ways we cant always understand, there is a picture of Hoggard's house on his blog page and it isn't that big, as for what car i haven't seen, i just know that he is well supported.

Quote
well i haven't heard him discount Bibles in other languages, i think he would say that the original manuscripts no longer exist, because he doesn't know Greek or Hebrew he focuses on the English.

That isnt the way i get his KJV Onlyism, nut then again he could change his view, as i have already discovered that he changes his view to support what he wants to say. Like the rapture, supports it one time, is against it another. Wolves wear many masks to hide within the flock

??? he is everything for the rapture, how is he against it?

Quote
constantly using his form of numerology to ascribe meaning when there isnt one, is not using the literal meaning of the passage. Just start listening to him, and the way he just wanders around, and you will start to see it.

he does both, it is just that he has an advanced knowledge of Biblical numerology that makes him look a bit different, numbers are important to God and God uses numbers in the Bible to explain things.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Aussie Micha on December 29, 2012, 01:04:55 am
Hi Guys!!!

Yep, I'm a newie so a BIG HELLO and G'DAY  :D :D :D

I have actually been following this forum for awhile now, but I just *had* to join to say that we should *always* remember the fruit that Mike Hoggard has produced...... just like Scott says to do  ;) ;) ;) ;D

I for one can credit him for making the Bible come alive for me. I have been a lukewarm Christian that only ever read her Bible because I felt a duty to God to do so etc...

Since listening to over 20 dvds of his teachings I'm now enjoying the KJV (before I wasn't convinced that it was the *only* right one).

By the way Mike presented it and showed me the numbers I realized you couldn't do that with the other versions.

I know it's not looking good to what he said (I actually will need to listen to it myself first) but remember we are all human and in a sin nature.... we will all make mistakes, say wrong stuff and slip up.

So maybe someone could point it out to him instead of making him look like a false prophet. He might be really shocked that it's gotten this far. Please be gracious.

Blessings,
Aussie Micha  :)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on December 29, 2012, 03:41:45 am
G'day!  ;)

And welcome.

"And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace [be] to this house." Luke 10:5 (KJB)

Well, as you know, we are a small group, but passionate for our Lord Jesus. None of us are perfect indeed, though we be "perfected" in Christ by His Spirit the Holy Ghost.

As you mention, all of us are still subject to the fleshly body we reside in for now. That sin nature of the flesh hasn't gone anywhere, though we are born-again. It's the battle that Paul speak of; flesh against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. So that means none of us are 100% correct on doctrine. We all still have some learning to do.

And yes, charity being the greatest of these, we should bear with them till we at least make sure we have a full understanding of what a person is trying to teach. At the same time, we should not rely on a man's interpretations, or look to man as your teacher. The Holy Ghost is our teacher, not man. Iron does sharpen iron, but it is still the Spirit within each believer that does the work.

False prophet? We know who the false prophets are by the Holy Ghost in us. The unbelieving? Not a clue what's false or true. They MUST have the Spirit to be able to discern between good and evil.

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." 1 John 2:27 (KJB)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on December 29, 2012, 10:35:08 am
Thought I would throw this out here...

Has anyone here watched Fritz Springmeyer's "Bloodlines of the Illuminati" presentation he did at the Bible Prophecy Club years ago?(It's up on youtube) No, I don't endorse everything he says, but it was nonetheless a fascinating expose. One of the things he pointed out was how the CIA(among other NWO entities) have sent out agents et al into the churches masquerading as pastors, and put them under some kind of mind control program. If I remember correctly how he described it, he said that they would have these personalities, albeit subtle, where in a flicker of a moment, they can change from one personality unto another with the CIA mind control program that was put on them.

No, he wasn't talking about your typical Churchianity pastor that went through the Alexandrian brainwashing at some seminary. Nor of your typical love-of-money pastor either.

Personally, I can somewhat attest to what he was saying - in my previous city where I lived, I crossed paths with this pastor of a big SBC Baptist church there that was rather highly esteemed among the evangelical community. Whenever I would see him preach, one moment his speech would be soft and with grace, and the next minute he would be yelling like he was pouring out so much passion. No, this wasn't your typical SBC pastor who had too much caffeine that morning, or tried to show too much (fake)passion. His behavior during these sermons, to say the least, was rather strange, and to boot he knew how to captivate his audiences unto him. Also, he was pretty arrogant, and whenever he would give interviews to the media, he would rarely if never mention Jesus Christ, but mention some New Agey terms(ie-dawning of a new day...).

Pretty much from my few experiences, it seems like pastors of the present day in these big SBC Baptist churches have this strange behavior that mirrors what Springmeyer has talked about.

No, I'm not trying to say Mike Hoggard is one of them(although personally, I find it strange that he can have this yelling behavior on the pulpit every now and then), but just thought I would throw what Springmeyer has exposed out here.

Satan masquerades as an angel of light...


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on December 29, 2012, 09:22:37 pm
Hi Guys!!!

Yep, I'm a newie so a BIG HELLO and G'DAY  :D :D :D

So maybe someone could point it out to him instead of making him look like a false prophet. He might be really shocked that it's gotten this far. Please be gracious.

Blessings,
Aussie Micha  :)

:D Nice to meet You too

Quote from: kilika
As you mention, all of us are still subject to the fleshly body we reside in for now. That sin nature of the flesh hasn't gone anywhere, though we are born-again. It's the battle that Paul speak of; flesh against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. So that means none of us are 100% correct on doctrine. We all still have some learning to do.

Hoggard says repeatably that he doesn't know everything by numbers in the Bible (Dr Panin said this too).

Quote from: BornAgain2
No, I'm not trying to say Mike Hoggard is one of them(although personally, I find it strange that he can have this yelling behavior on the pulpit every now and then)

i'm not big on preachers yelling but Hoggard has sat under the teaching of Pastor Reg Kelly who yells and i think it is his influence on him.

also i will say this about Hoggard in that he admitted that he has a big mouth and that he used to get whipped as a child because of his mouth.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Aussie Micha on December 30, 2012, 01:34:47 am
Hi Guys again,

After I posted here I thought I'd email Pastor Hoggard, so he can know and respond to what is being said about him. As I find it a bit unfair to take one point and run off with it.

I know I personally wouldn't like it. And the Bible also says *if* you have a problem with a Brother go to him first. It doesn't seem like any of those things happened here.

Anyway, if you are interested this below is what Pastor Mike wrote to me-


Michaela,

there are a few of these out there, and they trouble me a little but I am not too worried about it.

People have a right to say what they want about me, and I always take some of it to heart just to be sure that I am honest in my dealings, my doctrine, my behaviour, etc. 

If you post on there again, please let them know that if they have any questions for me about our church, my car, a 2001 Sienna, my house, our church finances, my status with the government, or anything else, they can call me at the church and ask. 

They can also ask any of the numbers of visitors we have had at our church who have seen who we are and what we do. 

I am not perfect, neither is our church, we are weak and flawed vessels by which God has chosen to preach the Gospel and give edification and warning in the last days. 

Thanks for letting me know about this.

by the way, if you want to know what I think about the government and Romans 13 I will tell you.  You can reach me tomorrow at our church office after our services are over.

God bless you, and Keep standing for the Old Book!

Mike


So please if there is any other concerns then go to him directly, as he is a humble man and genuinely wants to do God's work.

There are sooooo many 'wolves in sheep' clothing out there, and to major on the minor points on a *real man of God* is really not something we should do. Especially, when there are ones out there damaging the Body of Christ.

All the above said in love, and I hope you guys aren't mad at me for bringing it up to Mike's attention, but I really didn't think he deserved any of it. :(

By the way, it's a great forum and I hope I don't get banned! :-\


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on December 30, 2012, 03:32:51 am
I know I personally wouldn't like it. And the Bible also says *if* you have a problem with a Brother go to him first. It doesn't seem like any of those things happened here.

He puts out sermons and videos explaining his positions. Are you saying he is holding back on info or not fully stating his positions? One thing Pastor Hoggard does is provide a lot of info. It doesnt bother me that you have contacted him. Others have asked the questions I have and I have seen the responses. I did see the status of his church with the Gov, by actually looking at what the Government has on his church. To which i have posted.

Quote
if you want to know what I think about the government and Romans 13 I will tell you.  You can reach me tomorrow at our church office after our services are over.

he put out a whole sermon on it. Has his position changed or did he not mean what he said? This sermon was in his church preached from the pastors pulpit. Are we supposed to infer that what he says from the pulpit isn't what he believes? When a pastor gets up in front of hs congregation and gives a sermon, im going to take him at his word.

Quote
So please if there is any other concerns then go to him directly, as he is a humble man and genuinely wants to do God's work.

I have no doubt, I have listened to him for a long time.

Quote
All the above said in love, and I hope you guys aren't mad at me for bringing it up to Mike's attention, but I really didn't think he deserved any of it.

no, and I dont think he really cares. But if you read through this thread, it was his teaching that we should do what the Gov says when they say to do it, is what got me looking at him. Any one that says to just blindly follow the government deserves to be looked at. And then when he comes out talking about owning firearms is a constitutional right, well....

Quote
By the way, it's a great forum and I hope I don't get banned!

than why did it take so long to post? this thread has been here a LONG time. But just for the record,,,

Hey, if you like him than thats fine. As i said he put out some good info.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on December 30, 2012, 03:42:28 am
I will call anyone out on what i feel is wrong. Scott posted his belief on the rapture, and he is wrong as he is believing the lie that it started in the 1800's. I really like Kent Hovind, yet he recently came out on the same position, and im calling hm out also. I like a lot of Chuck Missler, and he has a whole bunch of baggage.

Yet 1 thing i cannot tolerate is anyone especially a pastor saying get in that fema camp, the Gov will take care of you and i will protect you.

History, proves that statement a lie and that it repeats over and over again.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on December 30, 2012, 03:50:37 am
No, I don't see any banning, not at this point. Just for defending some points about a person? Nah. It takes much more than that.

But then we here are not your typical group of believers. Our biggest battle we encounter is with what we call "churchianity", Mike being one of them. Sorry, but it's a fact. He's a product of the organized "church" system.

Mike Hoggard is a big boy. He can defend himself, as any believer can, if in fact the Spirit dwells in him. But Jesus clearly told us "ye shall know them by their fruit". Indeed we do!

What you need to understand is that we don't promote preachers here, though this is originally a Scott Johnson based site. The focus should not be the preacher, but the message being preached.

When I hear a person say, "But pastor Scott said this...Preacher Hoggard said that...

THAT really bothers me. I could care less what some man said. I want to know what my Lord Jesus says.

Now, you go run back to Mike and tell him what I said, and that I invite him to our little humble part of the ministry and have a little discussion.

Considering what we expose here about the truth of the false "churchianity" system, I highly doubt he has the courage to show up. I personally have not found a churchianity preacher yet that could handle the truth as I know it, and that's after nearly 30 years of walking with Jesus, even living on the streets as a street preacher ministering to the poor. Many people from churchianity would come up and question me and my brothers in Christ that worked the street ministry about "what church we attend" or "who is your pastor" etc. MAN, those questions get old! But I assure you of one thing, we NEVER ran across ANY churchianity preacher that knew their bible as well as we did, mainly I believe because we literally lived the bible every day and studied and read it every day, and everything we did was based on what the bible says.

How many church-goers do you know that know their bible inside and out? I suspect virtually none. But even then, the least will be the greatest, so it's not about one's gifts of knowledge, etc. It's not a contest, but just a test to try the spirits whether they are of God.

Quote
and to major on the minor points on a *real man of God* is really not something we should do.

Not sure where you get that logic from, but it isn't doctrinal. We are to, "reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine..."

Those who preach or teach have an extra burden because they have put themselves in a position of supposedly being knowledgeable about the bible and how to be a Christian, when the truth of the gospel says that we are to take the low seat, to be humble and not exhalt ourselves. Nor are we to take titles either calling ourselves by some "official sounding" name.

Are you calling Hoggard a "real man of God"? That sounds like you're putting too much glory on a man, that even he I suspect wouldn't support. Be very careful of what the world calls "hero worship". You put a man on a pedestal, you risk putting him before God.

"Cursed be the man that trusteth in man..."

I don't think Mike has the nerve to show up here actually, though it would be nice to share with him the truth, and to directly judge what manner of fruit he bears.

And I'd really like to hear what his explanation is for "churchianity", the organized false church system.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:..."

"And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence." Matthew 10:11 (KJB)

"But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost." Mark 13:11 (KJB)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Aussie Micha on December 30, 2012, 10:46:09 pm

Yes, guys I'm *totally* with you there- that you don't have to go to a church to be a good Christian. I too gave that up years ago, and have nearly lost a few Christian friends over it, as they can't seem to get their heads around that to be a Christian you don't need to go etc...

But it doesn't mean that everyone else is required to have the same conviction we do at the same time.

We need to remember that Mike has been in church his *whole life*. The same goes for Christmas and other issues..... they all come (convictions) in God's timing- not ours.

And Christians that don't see it like we do aren't any worse, or we any better.  You have to be super careful not to get a spirit of self justification..... We all do (need to be careful), as it's easy to get when we see others doing stuff that we were convicted not to do. I'm also pointing my finger back at myself.   :-[

The reason I didn't post before was that I'm only new to the entire forum (about a month).... and I never saw this thread before. And like I said before that I was just happy to read along, as I agreed with it all. It was only when I saw *this* thread that I felt like joining to give my views and to let others know how greatly and life altering Mike Hoggard has been for myself and other families. That was my whole point, and to stay gracious and loving..... :-* :)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Aussie Micha on December 30, 2012, 10:54:53 pm
Quote
Are you calling Hoggard a "real man of God"? That sounds like you're putting too much glory on a man, that even he I suspect wouldn't support. Be very careful of what the world calls "hero worship". You put a man on a pedestal, you risk putting him before God.

I'm not putting him on a pedestal, as I know he is just a man, and all men will fail you.... But you know them by the fruits and that's all I can go by- the fruits have been very, very good!

Also, just because one has *favourite* teachers doesn't mean they are putting them before God. I have favourite friends and other things that I like better than some- it totally doesn't mean that they come before God.  ???



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on December 30, 2012, 11:18:16 pm

Yet 1 thing i cannot tolerate is anyone especially a pastor saying get in that fema camp, the Gov will take care of you and i will protect you.

History, proves that statement a lie and that it repeats over and over again.

just from listening to Pastor Mike i'm sure that Pastor Mike would never say "get into that fema camp"

Also, just because one has favourite teachers doesn't mean they are putting them before God. I have favorite friends and other things that I like better than some- it totally doesn't mean that they come before God.  ???

That is the thing that we all have favorite teachers and some are better than others, whether they come before God only God knows.

And Christians that don't see it like we do aren't any worse, or we any better.  You have to be super careful not to get a spirit of self justification..... We all do (need to be careful), as it's easy to get when we see others doing stuff that we were convicted not to do. I'm also pointing my finger back at myself. 

by self justification you mean by pride, yeah pride is a pretty bad thing.

Quote
I don't think Mike has the nerve to show up here actually, though it would be nice to share with him the truth, and to directly judge what manner of fruit he bears.

i hope he does but i can see he is pretty busy.

i felt like joining to give my views and to let others know how greatly and life altering Mike Hoggard has been for myself and other families. That was my whole point, and to stay gracious and loving.....

i can understand that God has blessed people through the ministry of Mike Hoggard. Hopefully the good fruits will keep coming


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on December 31, 2012, 03:41:10 am
just from listening to Pastor Mike i'm sure that Pastor Mike would never say "get into that fema camp"



Than everything he said in his sermon, this wasn't one of his watchman videos, this was as the Pastor of the church, than everything he said, was a lie. He repeatedly said that we as good rebellious Christians had to obey those in authority over us, as the Lord put them their and we were to obey. And that those over us would protect us, as that is what the Lord wants.

I can agree with him in the spirit of what he is saying, i get what he means and i agree with him on those points. What he didn't do, and what i kept waiting for was the "BUT", as in but if this happens, you shouldn't obey. He never did give any instances of when you should resit the orders of those over you.

We should listen and obey the laws of the land, until those laws counter the laws of God. Abortion is legal in America by those in authority. Does that mean i should practice abortion because the powers that be say so? Should a Christian in China murder their baby because its the law of the land? The answer is no. Pastor Hoggard, never once said anything like that. Not once did he give a reason to resist, a reason to not follow the orders of those above us.

Only that if we did, we were rebelling against God. That is wrong. The Lord himself said to the people that when they see the abomination of desolation that they are to flee the land. And woe unto them with child, or if its in the winter time. Now when that happens, it will be the law of the land to come forth, give praise to the beast and get your mark. Whom are we to obey?

Pastor Hoggard did not give ant reason or situations to go against the powers that be, He didn't say Gods law trumps all others. He didn't say it. What he did say over and over was he was sorry that people are going to not like what he has to say, and that he knows people will leave him for what he has to say. Again i got what he was saying, and agree with those parts. We are to obey the laws of the land, UNTIL those laws contradict Gods laws.

Christianity was ILLEGAL under Roman law. Should the early Christians have just given up and practiced what those in authority said? Or did they follow a higher law? Pastor Hoggard did not once talk about those provisions, and that is what distanced me, as i kept waiting for him to say them. NEVER HAPPENED.

And the thing that really put me over was when he said if you stay in MY church i will protect you. Around the 46 min mark. You know who else said this kind of stuff? German pastors to their flock before leading them away to gas chambers. The "pastors" in LA during Katrina who said get in those FEMA camps, the Gov is here to help and Romans 13 says to OBEY!.

Hoggard came across in that sermon just like all the other 501c3 pastors who OBEY. Romans 13, if used out of context on the "churchianity" crowd is the ultimate control mechanism. Any christian that reads their Bible easily knows the truth of Romans 13, and that their are limits to its authority.

I can go on and on, but i dont see the point. Pastor Hoggard has had more than enough time to correct what he said. I haven't heard it yet. If he has please let me know, but to my ken he hasn't.

Oh and his new found super patriotism and guns and god stuff. That screams republican churchianity. Obama is coming for his gun, under his own sermon when they ask he will have to turn them over or he has made himself a hypocrite and a liar. What do you think he will do? I have a pretty good idea.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on December 31, 2012, 10:37:45 pm
Just reminding myself

Romans 13:
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Have You heard of this new sermon? i think he addresses this here:

The Standard Bearer 12/30/2012

Pastor Hoggard teaches upon the importance of standards. Some topics include: family; grouping together of peoples; a standard; the American flag, standards of USA; what a standard represents; meaning of the word standard; the Christian Flag; the Cross, a standard, a rallying point; we the people; political tyranny removes Gospel of Jesus; seven spirits of God; Satan wants your standard, and much more...

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12301213194710

http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/12301213194710/12301213194710.mp3

http://video.sa-media.com/media/12301213194710/12301213194710.mp4


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on January 01, 2013, 04:09:41 am


Have You heard of this new sermon? i think he addresses this here:



I did listen to that one, and it has nothing to do with Romans 13, but is in fact a call to keep flags and crosses in his church. Apparently someone told him that the cross is a pagan symbol predating Christ and this is his refutation on that and why he keeps such things in his church.

This sermon is a more of his republican guns and god kick he is on. Its pure churchianity in my opinion. He actually refutes his whole Romans 13 sermon in his Watchman Broadcast for 12/30/12, god and guns part 2. In that watchman video, not a sermon as the Pastor of his church, he goes 100% get your gun for Obama is coming to get it, and we don't need to follow Romans 13.

He finally gives the proper use and understanding of Romans 13. Though this flies completely in the face of everything he said in his official sermon on Romans 13. He did not once make an apology, or a refutation of that sermon. Just went on like nobody has ever heard it, and that this was his position the whole time. To which it wasn't.

He also dropped Alex Jones name a LOT. Wasn't expecting that. But still of this is his position NOW on Romans 13, than he needs to explain why he says one thing to his Church as a Pastor, and another to everybody else. You cannot serve 2 masters and you cannot speak out of both sides of your mouth.

With that being said i liked a lot of what he had to say in his 2 parts of God and guns. I was going to post the 2 parts in the Sandy shooting thread. I didnt because it flies in the face of what he has preached from the pulpit. Maybe Aussie Micha can ask him why his opinions change with the times?

Here are the 2 broadcasts.

God, Guns and Liberty Part 1
http://watchmanvideobroadcast.com/video/wvb121223_god-guns-liberty-01.html

Watchman Video Broadcast 12-30-12, God, Guns and Liberty Part 2
http://blip.tv/watchmanvideo/watchman-video-broadcast-12-30-12-god-guns-and-liberty-part-2-6489792?utm

also found here: http://mikehoggard.com/

It took over a year and a half, and for Obama to make a grab for guns for Pastor Hoggard to make a change on his stance of Romans 13. Why did it take this measure, a grab for guns, to make this change? He could have came out at anytime after his Sermon and made a declaration. There wa no reason to wait a year and a half and in the middle of a political upheaval.

Also, i dont see him not giving his weapons up when they come for them. Jesus said to flee, i dont see Pastor Hoggard as the survivalist type of guy when things go down. But do not worry, if your a member of his church, he will protect you. He needs to give a full account of his stance, not saying one thing and than saying something else. We call everyone else on this stuff.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Aussie Micha on January 01, 2013, 11:19:28 pm
Hi guys,

I asked Pastor Mike what his position is on Romans 13, and told him what people are saying about him, and he wrote back to me this-

Michaela,

This guy hasnt listened to other sermons I have preached on this issue.  He is assuming out of ignorance.  The scriptures are clear, as long a government ruler is not requiring or forcing us to disobey God's commandments, we are to be subject to the earthly authority. 

Even if that government is corrupt.  Paul was under Roman rule, and as you know, Ceaser considered himself a god.  However, in the book of Acts, Paul repeatedly pleads for his rights as a Roman citizen, and was granted those rights. 

However, if a ruler wants to force us to disobey God, then we are not to be subject to that. Peter and John refused to obey the Sanhedrin who told them not to preach Jesus anymore.  The Israelite midwives refused to murder the babies of the Jewish women.  If my government wants to pull me over for speeding, they have that right.  If my government wants to force my wife to have an abortion, or force me to preach in favor of sodomy, I must refuse and face the consequences.  That is what the scriptures declare and that is what I stand for.

Mike



Hope that helps clear it up a bit.  :)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on January 01, 2013, 11:33:26 pm
Hi guys,

I asked Pastor Mike what his position is on Romans 13, and told him what people are saying about him, and he wrote back to me this-

Michaela,

This guy hasnt listened to other sermons I have preached on this issue.  He is assuming out of ignorance.  The scriptures are clear, as long a government ruler is not requiring or forcing us to disobey God's commandments, we are to be subject to the earthly authority. 

Even if that government is corrupt.  Paul was under Roman rule, and as you know, Ceaser considered himself a god.  However, in the book of Acts, Paul repeatedly pleads for his rights as a Roman citizen, and was granted those rights. 

However, if a ruler wants to force us to disobey God, then we are not to be subject to that. Peter and John refused to obey the Sanhedrin who told them not to preach Jesus anymore.  The Israelite midwives refused to murder the babies of the Jewish women.  If my government wants to pull me over for speeding, they have that right.  If my government wants to force my wife to have an abortion, or force me to preach in favor of sodomy, I must refuse and face the consequences.  That is what the scriptures declare and that is what I stand for.

Mike


Hope that helps clear it up a bit.  :)

well that is clear right?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Aussie Micha on January 02, 2013, 01:12:27 am
Quote
he has a teaching where he talks about Atlantis as a real place, and the 10 horns of Daniel are the 10 kings of Atlantis. Does anyone know which teaching this is? I would love to hear it just to confirm what is being said.

But if true, that is 100% new age. There is no Atlantis, never was. Well not in the sence that the new-agers have spun the history of it, to which Hoggard is presenting as true. He does this all the time in his videos and stuff, just adds stuff in and hopes to not get called on it.

South East Christian Witness newletter issue 9 (2012) has this to say-

The 'sons of God" referred to in Genesis 6, established a highly advanced occult-based civilization before the Flood. The legends of Atlantis, Thule and Hyperborea, along with the monolithic ruins of Babylon, the Great Pyramid, the Sphinx, Mayan and Incan ruins, Stonehenge, Titcaca and countless other archaeological evidence above and now below under the waters testify to the existence of a civilizations so advanced, that they must have had access to information from another dimension beyond this world.


So my point is that he is not the *only* Christian saying that.

I'm sure Dr Scott Johnson would have no problem believing *that* either. As he has a good understanding of all those Greek and others legends, and how they fit into a reality before the Flood..... Just because we can't totally get our heads around it, it doesn't *disprove* anything.......


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on January 02, 2013, 03:44:00 am
Hi guys,

I asked Pastor Mike what his position is on Romans 13, and told him what people are saying about him, and he wrote back to me this-

Michaela,

This guy hasnt listened to other sermons I have preached on this issue.  He is assuming out of ignorance.  The scriptures are clear, as long a government ruler is not requiring or forcing us to disobey God's commandments, we are to be subject to the earthly authority. 

Even if that government is corrupt.  Paul was under Roman rule, and as you know, Ceaser considered himself a god.  However, in the book of Acts, Paul repeatedly pleads for his rights as a Roman citizen, and was granted those rights. 

However, if a ruler wants to force us to disobey God, then we are not to be subject to that. Peter and John refused to obey the Sanhedrin who told them not to preach Jesus anymore.  The Israelite midwives refused to murder the babies of the Jewish women.  If my government wants to pull me over for speeding, they have that right.  If my government wants to force my wife to have an abortion, or force me to preach in favor of sodomy, I must refuse and face the consequences.  That is what the scriptures declare and that is what I stand for.

Mike



Hope that helps clear it up a bit.  :)

I have listened to quite a bit of his sermons. He did not refute what he said or added a but or anything to what he said.

Quote
He is assuming out of ignorance.
nope, i have the audio, downloaded form sermon audio, anyone can listen to it, and no where does he refute his beliefs, he apologizes quite a bit. So sorry, mu conclusions are not out of ignorance. Just what he said, which is there for all to hear. Now maybe, it looks like i just might have to transcribe it, so all can see just what he said.

Quote
The scriptures are clear, as long a government ruler is not requiring or forcing us to disobey God's commandments, we are to be subject to the earthly authority. 

Even if that government is corrupt.  Paul was under Roman rule, and as you know, Ceaser considered himself a god.  However, in the book of Acts, Paul repeatedly pleads for his rights as a Roman citizen, and was granted those rights. 

On this he is correct, and I have said that. I have no problem with this. It was the total disregard and no mention of when the Gov violates the Lords laws.

Quote
However, if a ruler wants to force us to disobey God, then we are not to be subject to that. Peter and John refused to obey the Sanhedrin who told them not to preach Jesus anymore.  The Israelite midwives refused to murder the babies of the Jewish women.  If my government wants to pull me over for speeding, they have that right.  If my government wants to force my wife to have an abortion, or force me to preach in favor of sodomy, I must refuse and face the consequences.  That is what the scriptures declare and that is what I stand for.

This is what I'm talking about. He did not preach this, this is not in his sermon anywhere. It isn't in any of his stuff the next week nor the next week after that. the first refutation that i  have heard is in the God and Guns 2 which came out on 12/30/12. So its not out of ignorance i made my decision.

Quote
Hope that helps clear it up a bit

no it didnt, if he made a refutation before 12/30/12 id like to know where it is?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on January 02, 2013, 03:53:31 am
So my point is that he is not the *only* Christian saying that.

I can post so much stuff right now that "christians" believe, that are not Biblical at all. Not everyone that says they are "christian" are one. So using that logic fails every time.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Just saying...

If you know anything about the Atlantis, once you do away with all of the new-age myths, theosophy, and Quaylesque intrigue, it has nothing what so ever to do with the Pre-Flood world. 

Even so i would like to listen for my self to draw my own conclusions. Still looking for the audio? Wouldnt want to do anything out of ignorance...   ;)

Quote
I'm sure Dr Scott Johnson would have no problem believing *that* either. As he has a good understanding of all those Greek and others legends, and how they fit into a reality before the Flood..... Just because we can't totally get our heads around it, it doesn't *disprove* anything.......

Pretty sure he hasnt, but i would call him out on that too if he did. He has connected the Greek stories with the nephillim, but not atlantis.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on January 02, 2013, 12:41:15 pm


However, if a ruler wants to force us to disobey God, then we are not to be subject to that. Peter and John refused to obey the Sanhedrin who told them not to preach Jesus anymore.  The Israelite midwives refused to murder the babies of the Jewish women.  If my government wants to pull me over for speeding, they have that right.  If my government wants to force my wife to have an abortion, or force me to preach in favor of sodomy, I must refuse and face the consequences.  That is what the scriptures declare and that is what I stand for.

Well, he did say in his Romans 13 sermon 2 years ago(May 2011) that Obama "wasn't perfect", but according to Romans 13 he was appointed by God to be the leader of this country. Hoggard also went onto endorsing other stuff like TSA scanners, going into Iraq, etc.

Obama has been the most pro-abortion President we've ever had. Yes, our previous leaders(including our "conservative" ones like Ronald Reagan) were pro-abortion as well, but Obama has taken it to a whole new level.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on January 02, 2013, 07:11:33 pm
I will say this, he does a very good Alex Jones...  :D


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on February 21, 2013, 09:01:29 am
ok, listening to Pastor Mike Online 02-19-2013, from sermon audio.

at 01:26:26 he says he fully believes that the antichrist will have 7 heads. no lie, he fully explains why he believes this. So remeber we are to be looking for a guy that actually looks like a 7 headed dragon that comes out of the sea.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 21, 2013, 10:12:00 am
ok, listening to Pastor Mike Online 02-19-2013, from sermon audio.

at 01:26:26 he says he fully believes that the antichrist will have 7 heads. no lie, he fully explains why he believes this. So remeber we are to be looking for a guy that actually looks like a 7 headed dragon that comes out of the sea.

Well, if he is pre-trib, shouldn't he be looking for Jesus Christ coming back for his bride, and NOT the Antichrist, period?

I haven't listened to it(and will do so later), but maybe he meant this?

Rev_13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on February 21, 2013, 11:11:14 am
Well, if he is pre-trib, shouldn't he be looking for Jesus Christ coming back for his bride, and NOT the Antichrist, period?

I haven't listened to it(and will do so later), but maybe he meant this?

Rev_13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Thats what he meant, except that he believes that is what he will really look like. He will really have 7 heads 10 horns a gimp eye and so on. yep,, you really have to listen to Hoggard, he will try to slip em past ya.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 21, 2013, 12:12:38 pm
Yeah, just saw it, and caught it - he managed to slip that in when he responded over long-time questions over whether Obama is the Antichrist. If Hoggard had further read the scriptures in Revelation for a tad bit more...

Rev 17:9  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

This pretty much flies in the face of everything else he's said in his previous broadcasts, over having wisdom when discerning end times prophecies, counting(using numerology to some extent), etc.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on February 21, 2013, 12:23:00 pm
 :D you really have to listen to what he says...


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on February 21, 2013, 04:12:04 pm
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24 (KJB)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on February 28, 2013, 10:33:55 am
we get a shout out from Pastor Hoggard !! lol  :D

15:40 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA2SRKnEOyg

could he be talking about anyone else?



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 28, 2013, 10:41:02 am
^^

Yeah, just listened to those bits - he sounds like that 10 year old kid who gets caught by their parents doing something bad, then lies about it and gets defensive about it thinking he'll out-smart his parents and get out of trouble.

I did that alot as a young boy(won't deny it) - but not once did my parents fall for my antics. And Hoggard comes off as just that.

Also, he needs to explain his sermon he did on Romans 13 2 years ago. So far, he hasn't, but has dodged speaking about it.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on February 28, 2013, 11:03:12 am
i wish he would have mentioned us by name or something, maybe we would get a little more traffic


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 28, 2013, 11:09:52 am
i wish he would have mentioned us by name or something, maybe we would get a little more traffic


Good point - yeah, if Hoggard knows his bible, he should know that false teachers need to be called out by name. So technically, yeah, surprised he didn't call us out explicitely. ;D


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on February 28, 2013, 11:19:19 am
Just want to say, the part about him saying people get on a FEMA truck is not a lie. He didn't say those exact words but the scenario that he is endorsing is true. He states over and over that disobedience to the Gov is wrong. If an emergency happens, FEMA has full power and authority to come in and relocate people to FEMA camps. Pastor Mike, you said repeatedly that we must do what the Gov says, that would include getting in FEMA camp.

Nowhere is that violating the Bible in any way possible, we would just be blindly following the Governments orders just as you have said repeatedly that we are to do. According to your own sermon, we would have to follow the law and go to a fema camp if told to. Your WORDS!! not mine, but hey, we have you to protect us, right, that is what you said.

So did you say those exact words, get on a fema truck, nope you didnt, but you did say we would have to get on the truck. Sorry you feel so wronged, but your the one that will blindly follow the government. You didnt state anything contrary to that until this past shooting, when you got all God and Guns and well kill everyone, republican far right attitude.

This is the first time you CHANGED your stance on Romans 13. Its your sermon, to your church, as a pastor. You said it.. If need be, ill make a transcript so everyone can read it, might just be a good idea.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 28, 2013, 11:41:54 am
These word games Hoggard is playing is the same word games Satan used to deceive Eve.

Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2  And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3  But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on February 28, 2013, 02:10:57 pm
i wish he would have mentioned us by name or something, maybe we would get a little more traffic


15:40 min.? I listened through to about 16:45, and I guess I'm missing it. How was he referring to our site?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on February 28, 2013, 02:20:05 pm
15:40 min.? I listened through to about 16:45, and I guess I'm missing it. How was he referring to our site?

The part about him and the Fema camp...


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on February 28, 2013, 02:59:20 pm
I questioned before I read back a few posts! I had forgotten that little dialog and invitation. NOW it makes sense.

I needed to go back further and listen.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: tennis shoe on February 28, 2013, 04:00:17 pm
Sounded like doubletalk to me. To paraphrase: “I’m not telling you to go to the FEMA camp, but, as long as it doesn’t violate God’s law, you need to do as the government says.”

Did I hear that right?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 28, 2013, 04:57:24 pm
Sounded like doubletalk to me. To paraphrase: “I’m not telling you to go to the FEMA camp, but, as long as it doesn’t violate God’s law, you need to do as the government says.”

Did I hear that right?

Yes, he was rather subtle about it, and that was how I understood it too.

Also, caught something else Hoggard said a bit further down the 15:40 mark(like a minute later) - he said that if Obama passes laws that go against biblical authority(or something like that), then Hoggard said he and other Christians should REVOLT.(I'm paraphrasing, but he DID say we should revolt)

Uhm...while Romans 13 says Christians shouldn't have blind submission to an evil government, at the same time it did NOT say to revolt against this evil goverment(which people like Alex Jones are deceiving their flock to do so).

Rom 13:11  And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Rom 13:12  The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom 13:13  Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14  But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


James 5:4  Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
Jas 5:5  Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
Jas 5:6  Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
Jas 5:7  Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on March 01, 2013, 04:10:15 am
Just a follow up here, not once during the Romans 13 sermon was there a "But if it violates Gods word" or anything else like that. Not once did you say BUT Mr Hoggard, as your so fond of stating over and over today. You didnt do it in your sermon, to your church as a Pastor.

So I have every right to call you on that, as i have fully stated in this whole thread. You didnt say it on the sermon, heck you didnt say it until months later. So you cant claim "this is what i always said" because you didnt say it.

If any one doubts me here is the audio, down load it and listen for yourself.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=53011135937

So i dont have anything to apologize for, you do.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 01, 2013, 01:09:46 pm
Just a follow up here, not once during the Romans 13 sermon was there a "But if it violates Gods word" or anything else like that. Not once did you say BUT Mr Hoggard, as your so fond of stating over and over today. You didnt do it in your sermon, to your church as a Pastor.

So I have every right to call you on that, as i have fully stated in this whole thread. You didnt say it on the sermon, heck you didnt say it until months later. So you cant claim "this is what i always said" because you didnt say it.

If any one doubts me here is the audio, down load it and listen for yourself.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=53011135937

So i dont have anything to apologize for, you do.


Yep, and NOT ONCE did he the least bit call out Obama for what he is in that 2011 sermon - he was like, "Sure, Obama isn't perfect, but he's put there by God to do justice against evil...". And this FLIES IN THE FACE of all the watchman broadcasts he's done exposing Obama.

And not to mention too he ENDORSED TWA scanners, the wars "helping our freedoms" in the ME, etc.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on March 01, 2013, 09:16:02 pm
Good point - yeah, if Hoggard knows his bible, he should know that false teachers need to be called out by name. So technically, yeah, surprised he didn't call us out explicitly. ;D

how are we false teachers?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 01, 2013, 09:21:06 pm
how are we false teachers?

http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,2282.msg31705.html#msg31705

Discussion on this started at this post in this thread - Mark pointed out that Mike's comment may have been directed at us on this message forum.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 21, 2013, 12:07:00 am
OK, this discussion over eternal security starts at the 8:00 mark, and ended up listening to the 38 minute mark.

Even though he said Christians can't lose their salvation, he came to the conclusion that you have to keep believing from the beginning to the end, and have perseverence with steadfast confidence to the end to show you are truely saved.(he mentioned we're preserved as well, so he showed the other side very well - but nonetheless not sure what to make of this other side he said on salvation)

At least that's how I interpreted what he said - what do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1xVY9go9_E


Title: King James Pure Bible Search software
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 21, 2013, 01:24:50 pm
This looks pretty decent.

http://www.dewtronics.com/KingJamesPureBibleSearch/


Title: Re: King James Pure Bible Search software
Post by: Kilika on March 21, 2013, 03:41:57 pm
View the Preface page of their online manual, then let me know what you think of it. (notice the "cloud" url?)

http://cloud.dewtronics.com/KingJamesPureBibleSearch/manual/KingJamesPureBibleSearch.html (http://cloud.dewtronics.com/KingJamesPureBibleSearch/manual/KingJamesPureBibleSearch.html)


Title: Re: King James Pure Bible Search software
Post by: Christian40 on March 21, 2013, 11:03:12 pm
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,8116.0.html

it is version 1.1 now, i haven't upgraded yet


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on March 21, 2013, 11:08:12 pm
I'm not sure what to think, i cant think of any agenda that Hoggard would have in disproving eternal security or promotion of works salvation.

Bryan Delinger said he is going to do an exposure of Mike Hoggard some time in the future and he mentioned that eternal security as one of the issues he was going to bring up.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 21, 2013, 11:40:00 pm
I'm not sure what to think, i cant think of any agenda that Hoggard would have in disproving eternal security or promotion of works salvation.

Bryan Delinger said he is going to do an exposure of Mike Hoggard some time in the future and he mentioned that eternal security as one of the issues he was going to bring up.

Yeah, saw that in one of his recent videos - he said it's just a warning, and not an expose of a heretic or anything. I also didn't know Hoggard was backtracking on his pre-trib rapture beliefs.

Anyhow, he was bringing up verses in Hebrews talking about perserverence that is a required part of salvation/eternal security. This being one of them...

Heb 3:14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1) When one reads this verse, one can automatically think that we can't have any kind of backsliding or wavering at all until the end of our lives(or the rapture/2nd Coming), right? But that is NOT what it means, especially considering the passage in Romans 7 where Paul preaches about the lusts of his flesh warring against the Spirit. 2) One has to be patient and CONTINUE reading to see what it means. So here's the REST of the passage...

Heb 3:15  While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16  For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17  But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18  And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19  So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


Now what does the last verse say? Should sum it up right there. They couldn't be partakers of Christ b/c of their UNBELIEF, period. Again, PATIENCE when reading the scriptures.


Title: Re: King James Pure Bible Search software
Post by: Kilika on March 22, 2013, 02:17:54 am
Quote
Preface

Welcome to the King James Pure Bible Search application!  This application has
been brought to you by the fervent prayers of Bethel Church, Festus, MO.

This application was developed to allow the student of the King James Bible to
effectively search and seek out the patterns of the Divine Fingerprints of God in
His inerrant and infallible Holy Written Word.

This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the
terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software
Foundation; either version 3 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.

This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY
WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the GNU General Public License for
more details.

You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with
this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 675 Mass Ave,
Cambridge, MA 02139, USA.

‘Free’ software refers to your free uninhibited ability to access and obtain this
software in its exact original form, and your freedom to copy and share it with
others, not necessarily that it was obtained ‘for free’, as reasonable fees may be
charged to recover distribution costs.

This application was originally developed using open source Qt 4.8.3, and has also
been built and tested against Qt 4.8.4 and Qt 5.0.0.  The specific version
distributed depends on the target platform.  Qt is available at

http://qt-project.org/

.

Many thanks to Laura Moore for the new artwork for the program and manual!

This application is copyrighted for the same reason that the King James Bible is
copyrighted, to protect and ensure its integrity:
King James Pure Bible Search (Can Opener)
Copyright (C) 2012-2013 Donna Whisnant, a.k.a. Dewtronics.
Contact:

http://www.dewtronics.com/

This is an open source application.  The source code is available upon request.

Written and Developed for:

Bethel Church
1233 American Legion Drive
Festus, MO 63028
USA
636-931-3999


I wasn't talking about the version! Out of all that is bolded, you see no problems?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on March 22, 2013, 05:05:57 am
Heb 3:14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15  While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16  For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17  But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18  And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19  So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Now what does the last verse say? Should sum it up right there. They couldn't be partakers of Christ b/c of their UNBELIEF, period. Again, PATIENCE when reading the scriptures.

yeah it's about unbelief not a saved Christian losing their salvation.

Yeah, saw that in one of his recent videos - he said it's just a warning, and not an expose of a heretic or anything. I also didn't know Hoggard was backtracking on his pre-trib rapture beliefs.

??? i hope not


Title: Re: King James Pure Bible Search software
Post by: Christian40 on March 22, 2013, 05:15:17 am
i see one problem, the application is copyright and then it is open source software, i dont see how it could be both.


Title: Re: King James Pure Bible Search software
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 22, 2013, 11:24:03 am
Thank you guys, I did NOT see that! :( Can't believe I missed that! And Hoggard has it COPYRIGHTED too, while putting it on a CLOUD?

Kilika, if you want, you can change the OP thread header to some kind of warning(or dump this thread altogether).


Title: Re: King James Pure Bible Search software
Post by: Kilika on March 22, 2013, 04:44:29 pm
Considering that both Blue Letter and e-Sword are reasonably acceptable to use, another is not needed I'd say. So dump it at your leisure.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on April 08, 2013, 12:19:40 am
Okay?

A Warning About Mike Hoggard On Eternal Security

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4lO5yiAzOU&list=UU5k2gKT5wWo655t6XC7e-lg&index=1

I can NOT endorse Mike Hoggard until he begins to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of God. He is teaching a VERY false doctrine in relation to Eternal Security!


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 08, 2013, 02:56:06 pm
Just viewed the video - pretty darn good one - yeah, we have to be very careful in particular with our own selves thinking that b/c we're saved, we have to somehow strive for a sinless life. This is NOT going to happen, period. Yes, we need to live holy lives and be an example to the brethren, but nonetheless we would be deceiving our own selves if we think we have to be sinless, otherwise we would be putting the cross of Christ to open shame.

With that being said - I saw the Hoggard video(part 1 of it) last month where he talks about eternal security/can we lose our salvation, and while I didn't catch it the first time around, Denlinger pointed out how he played word games(and didn't say "You can lose your salvation" directly). On the 2nd go around with the clips shown, I thought he was pretty subtle, and there were times where he would say one thing, and backtrack on it the next minute.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on April 09, 2013, 12:35:20 am
The thing about his "Pastor Mike Online" show that it is on twice a week and he does it live where people can ask questions as he goes about anything at all. This is where he is making all his goofs and saying the wrong things because when he does a sermon or bible study he supports his statements with Bible verses as he actually well prepares for them. Anyway that is no real excuse for him to be saying what he likes. The best thing that Hoggard can do is repent of his false beliefs about losing eternal security, he should do a sermon where he explains his beliefs with scripture rather than just make wrong statements on his live show. He is a Pastor so he should know these things. I like the way that Delinger handles this video keying on the different things that Hoggard has said.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on April 13, 2013, 05:36:03 am
Mike Hoggard - Anti-apostasy Teacher or the Next Harold Camping?

http://bibleconundrumsandcontroversy.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/mike-hoggard-anti-apostasy-teacher-or.html?m=1

http://bibleconundrumsandcontroversy.blogspot.com/2012/05/mike-hoggard-part-2-king-james-bible.html

http://bibleconundrumsandcontroversy.blogspot.com/2012/05/mike-hoggard-part-3-are-you-being_23.html


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on April 13, 2013, 05:40:03 am
Mike Hoggard - The Watchman Has No Clothes (Part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4TFiuKPhNo


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 13, 2013, 11:30:32 am
Mike Hoggard - The Watchman Has No Clothes (Part 2) Eternal Security

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYpm4dvr-Ps


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 13, 2013, 01:11:23 pm
These are 2 very good videos this guy made exposing Hoggard - yeah, this was a big issue over at PPF for a good while...a lot of self-profession Christians there would push this "man's perserverence works-based, after you get saved" Churchianity salvation(which is what the Free Will Baptists believe). And the few who would profess the grace alone, faith alone in Jesus Christ were the ones that got ostracized.

Also, was listening to the first 24 minutes of Hoggard's 10 Commandments preaching from 2 years ago(that the guy in the video talked about) - listen at the 20-24 minute mark...he says he hates it when people say we're not under the law anymore.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=829111042310


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on April 13, 2013, 03:05:04 pm
Quote
he says he hates it when people say we're not under the law anymore.

Hmm, figures. He hates it because they aren't burdened by the law like he is to fulfill the whole law, which he can't because he's already sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Not sure what part of this he doesn't understand...

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:36 (KJB)



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on April 14, 2013, 03:23:44 pm
those three vids were pretty powerful!!! have to listen to them again. I wonder if Hoggard will reply to any?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on April 14, 2013, 03:32:01 pm
part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnEmTgpONv4&list=UUiGAa3oj5eXRvSrjqj65aAA&index=1


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 14, 2013, 04:06:38 pm
 :o

Is all I can say...


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on April 14, 2013, 04:33:45 pm
this is the sureYnot portion of the video done by Hoggards web master Jazz

Mike Hoggard's Response About the SureYNot Page: http://goodsoldierofjesuschrist.blogspot.com/2012/07/mike-hoggard-and-his-spiritual.html

just WOW!!!!  :o   :o

I honestly didnt think the rabbit hole went this deep...


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 14, 2013, 04:46:06 pm
this is the sureYnot portion of the video done by Hoggards web master Jazz

Mike Hoggard's Response About the SureYNot Page: http://goodsoldierofjesuschrist.blogspot.com/2012/07/mike-hoggard-and-his-spiritual.html

just WOW!!!!  :o   :o

I honestly didnt think the rabbit hole went this deep...

Yeah, I have doctrinal issues with Stan Johnson(the guy who runs the Prophecy Club), where Mike has spoken at. But at the same time, Johnson has managed to bring in some good guests.

Anyhow, great catches by the web site - had no idea those other hand signs are Freemasonic as well(ie-the one where he's pointing his finger in the air with his thumb sticking out). And look at how many times Hoggard lied to convince the numerology angle. As for the color red Stan J was wearing - a lot of Hollywood celebs, pop singers, models, etc wear red as well b/c it reflects occult symbolism, from what I understand.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 14, 2013, 05:25:46 pm
Mike Hoggard's Response About the SureYNot Page: http://goodsoldierofjesuschrist.blogspot.com/2012/07/mike-hoggard-and-his-spiritual.html


Just a little disclaimer on this guy's blog - he thinks that Revelation and Daniel have no 7/3.5 year future prophecies to be fulfilled b/c (supposedly)it was John Nelson Darby who made it all up with his "dispensationalism". He doesn't believe in pre-trib, that's his business, but saying Revelation and Daniel have no future end time prophecies?(meaning they were already fulfilled in the past?)

Wow...not just him, but anyone - if anything, this is a 7th Day Adventist teaching(ie-7DAs believe the 1260 day period in Rev 13 was actually 1260 years in Papal Rome, and the rapture of the church was supposed to happen soon afterwards).

Anyhow - he has a lot of good information exposing a lot of these "end times watchmen", but nonetheless "test the spirits"...


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on April 15, 2013, 02:50:29 am
Just a little disclaimer on this guy's blog - he thinks that Revelation and Daniel have no 7/3.5 year future prophecies to be fulfilled b/c (supposedly)it was John Nelson Darby who made it all up with his "dispensationalism". He doesn't believe in pre-trib, that's his business, but saying Revelation and Daniel have no future end time prophecies?(meaning they were already fulfilled in the past?)

Wow...not just him, but anyone - if anything, this is a 7th Day Adventist teaching(ie-7DAs believe the 1260 day period in Rev 13 was actually 1260 years in Papal Rome, and the rapture of the church was supposed to happen soon afterwards).

Anyhow - he has a lot of good information exposing a lot of these "end times watchmen", but nonetheless "test the spirits"...

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1 (KJB)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on April 15, 2013, 05:06:07 am
this is the sureYnot portion of the video done by Hoggards web master Jazz

Mike Hoggard's Response About the SureYNot Page: http://goodsoldierofjesuschrist.blogspot.com/2012/07/mike-hoggard-and-his-spiritual.html

just WOW!!!!  :o   :o

I honestly didnt think the rabbit hole went this deep...

:o so he has these hidden messages on his programs when he himself is supposed to be exposing hidden things, it sounds a bit like hypocrisy.

Hoggard has changed the music at the end of the "Pastor Mike Online" program and it is now something from "Handel's Messiah" also he was having problems with his show online so he left some classical music going as he was fixing the problem.

Yet Hoggard has said numerous times that he isn't a freemason.

As Mark said once before: "i dont trust Hoggard"


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 15, 2013, 09:37:52 am
:o so he has these hidden messages on his programs when he himself is supposed to be exposing hidden things, it sounds a bit like hypocrisy.

Hoggard has changed the music at the end of the "Pastor Mike Online" program and it is now something from "Handel's Messiah" also he was having problems with his show online so he left some classical music going as he was fixing the problem.

Yet Hoggard has said numerous times that he isn't a freemason.

As Mark said once before: "i dont trust Hoggard"

One time at the end of one of his live broadcasts, he played that "Mr. Rogers Neighborhood" song. Not sure if Fred Rogers himself was a Satanist(as has been rumored in the internet community), but personally, I rarely watched his show growing up as a kid b/c he just gave me the CREEPS(ie-just struck me as odd over some grown man wanting to be around little kids all by himself).

And for the most part too - I'm starting to get weary of the entire discernment network. No, not every one of them, but in general those that hit the internet airwaves and are popular among the mainline end times message forums. For example, someone pointed out "Dawning of the New Age" occult symbolism to me with Joe Schimmel's(Goodfight Ministries), Brannon House's(Worldview Weekend), Ingrid Shulster's(VCY is runned by Catholics), just to name a few web sites. And these are the same people who's priorities are exposing the Emergent Church. Hhhhmmm...yeah, I agree the EC is very dangerous, but perhaps a Hegelian Dialectic going on here with both sides controlled opposition?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on April 16, 2013, 05:04:02 am
i wouldn't rule out a Haegalian Dialect with Mike Hoggard, if he is not a freemason then he could be in some catholic order such as the knights of malta or even the Jesuits.

And also about Hoggard is that he doesn't always answer his critics, he has for what seems the last 6 months been exposing the Hebrew Roots movement, it was like he was offended by some of their leaders as he keeps bringing it up, he was saying that he has a thorn in the flesh but he doesn't say who it is that are saying things about him, he is not naming anyone including this site.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 16, 2013, 11:00:20 am
i wouldn't rule out a Haegalian Dialect with Mike Hoggard, if he is not a freemason then he could be in some catholic order such as the knights of malta or even the Jesuits.

And also about Hoggard is that he doesn't always answer his critics, he has for what seems the last 6 months been exposing the Hebrew Roots movement, it was like he was offended by some of their leaders as he keeps bringing it up, he was saying that he has a thorn in the flesh but he doesn't say who it is that are saying things about him, he is not naming anyone including this site.

You guys probably know about the news story over the weekend over some California teen dying "playing chicken" with a train(which somehow is growing to be popular among the youth of today). Anyhow, especially with the indoctrination the youth of today is under in their institutions and media entertainment they watch, decided to look up "playing chicken" on the internet - surely enough, this didn't necessarily apply to those rebel James Dean movies and other entertainment where they would play dangerous games(ie-2 cars driving toward each other, and the winner would be the one that wouldn't swerve - worst case scenario, either both swerve or both wreck each others's cars).

Posted the link about it on the "Hollywood's War on God" thread - pretty much, both opposing sides will be incredibly persistent in pushing their views without backing down, and the worst possible outcome is a neutral draw. You see this talk in the political world, the Communists have used this tactic, and Bertrand Russell endorses it.

Yeah, you pretty much see this attitude with Hoggard - not that I expect every Christian to be perfect(after all, our flesh is weak), but from the get-go, it was as if he was trying to push an agenda with his (hidden)numerology doctrine, and no matter how flawed it was, he continued to push it in all of his audios and videos. While I didn't mind him exposing the occult with Hollywood(and showing scripture with what he was talking about), it got to a point at times where it wasn't edifying and I myself felt a bit defiled looking at the images on his videos.(also, the more he got into the entertainment stuff, the more it reminded me how the "religious right" used to over-attack Hollywood and forget what our REAL enemies are) Again, I don't mind learning about the BASIC occult stuff, b/c we shouldn't be ignorant of Satan's devices(as self-professing Christian leaders have infiltrated churches).

And he also played the role of "good cop" - seeing how spiritually DEAD 99% of churches in America are, and acting like he was providing a voice to those who were desperate to find fellowship and preaching somewhere. A lot like how Ron Paul played this same "good cop" role to the "truth movement" just to merely give them a voice in the midst of the false left/right paradigm.

But yeah, it seems like this "playing chicken" Hegelian Dialectic is played out with the intent of "wearing out the saints..."(or whatever side of the fence you're on), as the agendas that get pushed are the same repetitive stuff over and over.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on April 17, 2013, 04:06:51 am
part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kSOAJZiq5Y


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 17, 2013, 01:51:13 pm
^^ Very good video. Just a note on this - not just Hoggard teaching this heresy, but in general it seems like a lot of us(especially myself included) can blindly dive into this works-based nonsense, largely b/c of misinterpreting the OT teachings from time to time, where the old covenant was under the law.(again, I myself has been guilty of this quite a bit)

It also seems like not only Hoggard, but the typical modern-day "church" stresses quite a bit on works - my previous pastor was like that(his doctrinal statement admits we're saved by deeds also, and he was so over-zealous in terms of doing all kinds of "good works" for the community). Guess this should be no surprise as they have their big buildings and various "activities" they've constantly investing in(and not to mention too their "General Funds" are stashed away for a "rainy day").

Heb 8:6  But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11  And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12  For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on April 17, 2013, 03:10:09 pm
1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:1-7 (KJB)


1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2  Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Colossians 3:1-3 (KJB)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on April 18, 2013, 04:37:44 am
Hoggard is NOT pre Trib, around the 88 min mark of his 800kbps Video Pastor Mike Online 04-16-2013 he is asked about it and he says he says he believes in Tribulation, he sure does.


Well, if he believes that, why isnt he preparing for it?  He not very physically fit. He would last very long on his own. makes you wonder


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 18, 2013, 10:37:21 am
Hoggard is NOT pre Trib, around the 88 min mark of his 800kbps Video Pastor Mike Online 04-16-2013 he is asked about it and he says he says he believes in Tribulation, he sure does.


Well, if he believes that, why isnt he preparing for it?  He not very physically fit. He would last very long on his own. makes you wonder

Speaking of pre-trib, I'll be honest, the more I hear these minions speak out against it(ie-Alex Jones, Steven Anderson, Catholic Church, Barbara Max-Hubbard, etc), the more I'm starting to re-examine mine own position on this. And speaking of not being very physically fit, neither is Alex Jones. He warns how we should be prepared, but he looks like someone who sits in front of the tv all day eating potato chips. I'll be honest as well - the reason why I changed my position to post-trib 4 years ago was b/c people like John MacArthur, Hal Lindsey, John Hagee and other wolves were promoting it, so I assumed pre-trib was the wrong doctrine.(ie-these men in particular have major doctrinal issues on salvation - and Lindsey largely blames Bill Clinton over what is going on now, instead of calling out the entire system) Both I and Mark had conversations about this via pm over on PPF at the time.

I'm going to have to watch that part of the video to see how he says it.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 18, 2013, 02:06:07 pm
Mark, did you say the 88 minute mark of his 4/16/2013 live broadcast? Is it this one? At the 88 minute mark is when he ends the program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_xbFB5Wpmo


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on April 18, 2013, 02:17:23 pm
this one, http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=416131637406

Im pretty sure the timer was at 88 min... it was toward the end, he was reading a question that somone asked.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on April 18, 2013, 02:29:58 pm
AROUND THE 1 hr 20 min mark


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 18, 2013, 02:38:36 pm
AROUND THE 1 hr 20 min mark

Thanks! Just listened to it - the question given to Hoggard was "Do you believe in a pre-trib rapture, and can Catholics be saved?". And his response was, "I believe in Great Tribulation". Yes, THIS was his answer. He sounded like he was trying to cut and run.

Uhm...the person was asking TWO separate questions, right?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on April 18, 2013, 02:39:33 pm
Yeah, he says he believes in tribulation, "I sho doo" (sorry he used an accent), then moved on to something different with no clarification. Snake.

I also noticed his phone number listed on the sermonaudio page. Just sayin'.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on April 27, 2013, 09:44:16 am
part 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vya-UQByOIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vya-UQByOIg


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 27, 2013, 06:31:31 pm
^^ This is a very good part 5 as well! Yeah, it's starting to come to a point where it's not so much that Hoggard is trying to deceive his flock, per se, but him being a wolf in sheep's clothing has a MISUNDERSTANDING of the scriptures IN THE FIRST PLACE...IOW, even the best of magicians will eventually run out of a bag of tricks.

Mat 21:42  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44  And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.


Rom_9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

2Peter 3:16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on April 28, 2013, 04:48:50 am
Mike Hoggard's biggest nightmare. The guy knows the difference between doctrine and devotional spiritual application. Just kinda important, eh?

And here is a comment from a friend of mine:

"A testimony of my experience with Mike Hoggard and his ministry. Mike Hoggard is a heretick preaching a false gospel of works salvation (Gal.1:8,9). His ministry is marked by confusion (1 Cor. 14:33), and he refuses to receive instruction or correction (Pr. 12:1). You cannot believe the King James Bible, rightly divided, and follow Hoggard (Rom.16:17)."


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 03, 2013, 01:41:42 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw60hUibTjg


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 03, 2013, 11:00:24 am
First off, just wanted to say that this guy making the videos exposing Hoggard has done a very good, thorough job. But just one thing I don't agree with him - he says we should read bible commentaries. Personally, I can't agree with that b/c while some of them are very good, at the same time they tend to drift to their own opinions, and end up getting away from the true meaning of the texts. For example, I have Matthew Henry's commentary, and even that has a few errors in it that tends to leaven things a bit.

With that being said, yes, it is hypocritical of Hoggard to say he stays away from commentaries, but en yet he himself is babbling for hours on end on his broadcasts.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on May 03, 2013, 05:02:42 pm
"Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter [any] thing before God: for God [is] in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few." Ecclesiastes 5:2 (KJB)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on May 03, 2013, 11:38:40 pm
1 Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on May 04, 2013, 04:25:54 am
Amen


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 13, 2013, 03:10:21 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRAeeFQVuKA


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on May 13, 2013, 05:44:16 pm
What? He says the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God are not the same?

Where does he discuss that?


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 13, 2013, 09:04:38 pm
What? He says the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God are not the same?

Where does he discuss that?

I haven't listened to the video yet(will have to wait until tomorrow), but are you talking about Hoggard or the guy in the video?



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on May 14, 2013, 02:37:13 am
The guy doing the video, right out of the gate to start the video he says it. Somebody is going to need to explain that. I've never heard such.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 14, 2013, 08:22:02 am
The guy doing the video, right out of the gate to start the video he says it. Somebody is going to need to explain that. I've never heard such.

kingdom of heaven - it's only mention in the book of Matthew(the other NT chapters use kingdom of God) - but nonetheless, I'm surprised too that he said they both have different meanings.

Mat_5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 6:20  And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.


Dunno, but they both seem to have the same meaning according to the texts.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on May 14, 2013, 10:39:42 am
That's what I'm saying. There is no difference. They are one and the same.

Gotta watch these so-called teachers. ::)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on May 16, 2013, 02:35:36 pm
 :o Hoggard just said in his LIVE broadcast that we will be transformed into Angels.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=bethel

He quoted the Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. and stated that Jesus said we would be turned into Angels.

i need a good face palm here.

He did mention my email i sent him though.  ;D that was a plus. not gonna say which one since i think he checks here. Come on Mike, no where does the Bible say we are turned into Angels. Serioulsy, we are going to have a body like Jesus's risen body, we are not being turned into Angels.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 16, 2013, 02:43:16 pm
Is the live broadcast the one on 5/14/13? At what time does he start reading off emails? Want to listen to it right now. Thanks!


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on May 16, 2013, 02:48:30 pm
Is the live broadcast the one on 5/14/13? Want to listen to it right now. Thanks!

no it just ended a little bit ago, you should be able to catch it later tonight or tomorrow. its the Pastor Mike Online 5/16/13 broadcast.

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

That verse and the proceeding passage and corrisponding passages talk about MARRIAGE. We will not be married or given in marriage. Has nothing to do with being turned into angels. Angels are 1 gender, so they cant marry anyway. They can produce children with humans, but not with each other. But still it has nothing to do with us being turned into angels.



Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 16, 2013, 02:57:00 pm
OK thanks - personally, I kept wondering about those passages. Yeah, Hoggard will pick the slightest things b/c he knows it will confuse and deceive his listeners that are baby Christians. Like the time when he said humans have the "serpent seed" in them b/c of what happened in the Garden of Eden.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on May 17, 2013, 04:02:30 am
Hey Mike, forget this one?...

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 (KJB)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on May 17, 2013, 04:07:47 am
OK thanks - personally, I kept wondering about those passages. Yeah, Hoggard will pick the slightest things b/c he knows it will confuse and deceive his listeners that are baby Christians. Like the time when he said humans have the "serpent seed" in them b/c of what happened in the Garden of Eden.

Serpent seed, uh, no. That's just a stupid thing to say.

Corrupted seed, yes. That is why we need salvation.

12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Romans 5:12-14 (KJB)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on July 31, 2013, 07:57:58 am
Mike Hoggard: "God has wings"   :D

thats right God has actual wings, like a bird. Start at the 14 min mark on this weeks Pastor Mike online for 7/30/13. He says it at the 14:23 mark. He says Biaz says God has wings, David said in Psalm 91 God has wings, oh and by the way when the Holy Spirit showed up, and and and, rested upon Jesus when he is coming out of the water baptism, HE HAD WINGS!! You just got to believe it people.

He then goes into a diatribe of how people report on his crazy sayings.  ::) then dont say crazy things.

Im assuming this is the verse by Boaz. Rth_2:12  The LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust.

here is salm 91's: Psa 91:4  He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. guess the Lord is some kind of GIANT bird.  :o

oops, i guess he is a tiny bird. Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Lets see here Pastor Mike. You used those 3 verses to proclaim God has wings. You said it, and meant it, and then went on like an occultists and proclaimed that any one that speaks out against your crazy sayings are just trolls and not part of the church that we have left. You need some real help.

funny how those verse's all talk about an allegorical situation. The Lord God does not actually come down and put his feathery wings around people. The Spirit of God descended LIKE a dove. It didnt look like one. And ahh, where are the wings in any of the Revelation passages? funny how they are missing. The Lord is SPIRIT, Jesus said so, its in the Bible.

Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Woops, no wings Pastor Mike. If you dont want people commenting on your crazy sayings, then quite saying them.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 31, 2013, 08:16:52 am
Hoggard is really losing his mind now, or his bag of tricks has run out.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on August 01, 2013, 01:59:45 am
That is classical Mike Hoggard tactics, he goes on the offensive by saying multiple misleading and wrong things and then says he is a victim from wolves and "hateful" people that expose his lying. ::)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on November 19, 2013, 04:21:33 am
get this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUhdsb-RRsk


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on November 19, 2013, 05:12:52 am
 :D i was just listening to that. Yep that is the true sign of a wolf creeping in. They get in by saying stuff that is true and relevant in the Bible than over time they slowly change what they believe and get the rest to follow.

and how dare he say that the more you learn the Bible the less you know. Hoggard you are a fraud and a liar.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Funny how that doesnt work for you and all the other wolfs out there.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 19, 2013, 10:47:11 am
And look how he uses FUTURE tense when he says "The time is coming when we WILL be tried by fire...".

Uhm, sorry Mike, but scripture does NOT use future tense...

1Peter 1:6  Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


1Peter 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.


1The 3:2  And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
1Th 3:3  That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4  For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.


Basically, Hoggard is telling you that everything is peaches and cream(presently, that is), until a future time when we will be tried by fire.

And while I don't want to bring up another pre/mid/post trib rapture discussion - I will admit that the more these wolves are coming out of the woodwork attacking the pre-trib rapture, the more I'm becoming convinced the pre-trib position IS the correct doctrine. :)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 19, 2013, 10:58:23 am
:D i was just listening to that. Yep that is the true sign of a wolf creeping in. They get in by saying stuff that is true and relevant in the Bible than over time they slowly change what they believe and get the rest to follow.

and how dare he say that the more you learn the Bible the less you know. Hoggard you are a fraud and a liar.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Funny how that doesnt work for you and all the other wolfs out there.

And this is exactly what I've heard from these "influential evangelists" like Billy Graham and Charles Stanley for years and years - they say how every time they read passages in the bible, they always see "new meanings". Yes, I understand that while we are in our weak flesh, we're not going to have a complete understanding of everything. But nonetheless look at the rhetoric Hoggard(and Graham/Stanley) use to give everyone the impression that the bible is somehow hard to understand. "new meanings" each time they read the bible? "know less and less"? Yes, VERY subtle!


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Kilika on November 19, 2013, 12:43:23 pm
11  [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15  And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16  As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18  But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.
2 Peter 3:11-18 (KJB)


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Mark on November 20, 2013, 05:35:14 am
get this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUhdsb-RRsk

I also want to say, that right before this clip, [hear whole thing here: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1114131517220] he was talking about how North Korea killed those 80 people, and some were killed just for owning the Bible. Mike than made the outrageous claim and LIE that NO NORTH KOREAN BELIEVES IN THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE. That’s a lie Mike, as you can’t possibly know that. There is no way you can know that at all. Mike bases this on??? Nothing, just the fact that Christians are being persecuted and killed is his entire basis for this. Dude, that’s been going on for just about 2000 years now. It’s never stopped. You can’t sit and say no North Korean Christian believes in the pre trib rapture... You just making stuff up, which is a lie.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 20, 2013, 09:28:35 am
I also want to say, that right before this clip, [hear whole thing here: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1114131517220] he was talking about how North Korea killed those 80 people, and some were killed just for owning the Bible. Mike than made the outrageous claim and LIE that NO NORTH KOREAN BELIEVES IN THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE. That’s a lie Mike, as you can’t possibly know that. There is no way you can know that at all. Mike bases this on??? Nothing, just the fact that Christians are being persecuted and killed is his entire basis for this. Dude, that’s been going on for just about 2000 years now. It’s never stopped. You can’t sit and say no North Korean Christian believes in the pre trib rapture... You just making stuff up, which is a lie.

Looks like Mike forgot about this passage...

1The 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Yes, at the rapture, these North Koreans who were killed for defending their faith in Jesus Christ WILL be the first to rise!

OOPS!


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 02, 2014, 02:43:32 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NggyAwbpgMk


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on May 03, 2014, 09:46:07 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NggyAwbpgMk

Many of the points he made about Hoggard i have seen too, he can be very confusing and very silly! i dont know why he has to go of on a tangent alot of the time, just preach the word of God so people can understand it.


Title: Re: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government
Post by: Christian40 on October 05, 2014, 04:51:33 am
Mike Hoggard defends himself in regards to eternal security 0 to 35 minute mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afuPHIwUjgQ