End Times and Current Events

General Category => Revelation Prophecy => Topic started by: PeanutGallery on September 22, 2011, 02:03:40 pm



Title: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: PeanutGallery on September 22, 2011, 02:03:40 pm
cant go up, when your coming down, jsut dont work that way.  :D and 2 thess 2:3 dosent say anythign about pre or post, only that the antichrist will be revealed before the rapture. which still fits a pre trib.

i really dont want this to be a pre-post debate. just survival info.
Interesting you mentioned antichrist will be revealed before the rapture; I've read that the antichrist would not appear until after rapture.
That changes things; some taught that the antichrist is not revealed until mid-trib.
Thanks; something to think about.


2Thess 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on September 22, 2011, 02:24:59 pm
Quote
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

says it right there. The antichrist has to be revealed. We will knwo who he is, although we might now he is the antichrist he will make an apperance on the world stage. The actual TRIB starts at the signing of the 7 year treaty. In order for the antichrist to broker that he would have to rise to some sort of power before that.  :)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on September 22, 2011, 02:59:06 pm
God only knows if any of us will be alive when it take splace, but it's WELL within our "normal" lifetimes that we could see the Antichrist revealed. I think though that many have been conditioned to look at these things as some MAJOR event and massive wars an aliens walking the earth, and it all starts as one single big event or something, but that's not what I understand of the progression of events. It seems to be it's a progression, an escalation of severity over time. It won't get panic bad till the Antichrist breaks the peace deal 3.5 yeers into the deal. Then it gets REAL bad! All hell on earth breaks loose then.

But it's still not a single major alien landing type event. It creeps up on the blind of the world, numbing them along the way so most never see it coming. Remember that scripture says they will be saying peace and safety right before it all comes apart. The sales pitch of the world is that it's all good, everythings fine it's just a down turn, when countries are collapsing around them.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 22, 2011, 06:04:55 pm
says it right there. The antichrist has to be revealed. We will knwo who he is, although we might now he is the antichrist he will make an apperance on the world stage. The actual TRIB starts at the signing of the 7 year treaty. In order for the antichrist to broker that he would have to rise to some sort of power before that.  :)

Even though Scott strays away from this debate(and giving his own position on this), at the same time he's harped pretty hard that the antichrist has to reveal himself first(according to this passage) before the church can be raptured(whenever that will be).

This is my main gripe with the pre-trib crowd(not all, but most) - b/c for the most part they say the rapture happens before the AC gets revealed. Scripture says the AC has to reveal himself first. Now whether one wants to believe the rapture will happen soon after, at the midway point, or at the end, it's up to you.

BTW - Steve Jackson's INWO card game has just that...the 'Messiah' card where the AC reveals himself(the one where a big light shines down on a smiling albeit deceived crowd), and then the 'Rapture' card is placed right after that(and before the 'Repent' card). Even Bill Howard, a high level Theosophist, said many years ago that when the World Teacher(maitreya) makes his appearance, the group of people that do NOT fall for the world teacher will vanish, and they've already prepared an explanation for these "disappearances".

Anyhow - thought I would throw that in - it's not what some Christian preacher is saying, it's what THE ENEMY is saying. Not that I agree with them, but they seem to be pretty serious about this.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on September 22, 2011, 07:50:12 pm
its not what the enemy says its what the Word of God says. The Antichrist will be revealed, now when the treaty is signed is when the 7 years start. In order for the antichrist to broker the deal he has to rise to power first. no way around it. That is what the Bible teaches. It also teaches that you cant go up at the same time your coming down. dont work that way. So clearly you cannot have a post trib rapture if the saints are returning with Jesus. sorry...  :)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 22, 2011, 07:56:04 pm
its not what the enemy says its what the Word of God says. The Antichrist will be revealed, now when the treaty is signed is when the 7 years start. In order for the antichrist to broker the deal he has to rise to power first. no way around it. That is what the Bible teaches. It also teaches that you cant go up at the same time your coming down. dont work that way. So clearly you cannot have a post trib rapture if the saints are returning with Jesus. sorry...  :)

I know what you're saying, but was just pointing out what the NWO minions have been planning for a long time now(as evidenced by Steve Jackson's INWO card game).

People like Geolibertarian over on PPF have not only mocked pre-trib, but has gone as far as saying today's "church" have bought into it largely b/c of the Zionists and John Hagee. Like I said before, this is just not true, b/c it's QUITE THE OPPOSITE that's poisoned today's "church"...Preterism largely b/c of Emergent/Purpose Drive poison(which Geo has failed to see many times). A growing number of churches are buying into the lie that Revelation and Daniel happened in 70 AD, and how the church replaced Israel somehow.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 06, 2011, 09:07:41 am
I like this description:
"Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation."
http://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-tribulation.html

Besides, it can't be mid or post or we would know approximately the time...3.5 years or 7 years.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 06, 2011, 09:53:36 am
Either way, the antichrist has to be revealed first.



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on October 06, 2011, 03:27:36 pm
"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15 (KJB)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 07, 2011, 08:09:19 am
"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15 (KJB)

world

Kosmos, Summary: In the sense of the present world-system, the ethically bad sense of the word, refers to the "order," "arrangement," under which Satan has organized the world of unbelieving mankind upon his cosmic principle of force, greed, selfishness, ambition, and pleasure. Matthew 4:8,9; John 12:31; 14:30; 18:36; Ephesians 2:2; 6:12; 1 John 2:15-17. This world- system is imposing and powerful with armies and fleets; is often outwardly religious, scientific, cultured, and elegant; but, seething with national and commercial rivalries and ambitions, is upheld in any real crisis only by armed force, and is dominated by Satanic principles.

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=013


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 12, 2011, 02:46:09 pm
Ok, I need some brotherly help here. I am still not seeing where the ac will be revealed before the rapture.???


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 12, 2011, 02:55:46 pm
Ok, I need some brotherly help here. I am still not seeing where the ac will be revealed before the rapture.???

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 13, 2011, 07:58:31 am
2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Thanks, but I still don't see it. Here is what J. Vernon McGee had to say about it:

Two Departures?
I want you to notice in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 something very, very important. “Let no man
deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except….” Notice the reference to “that
day.” What day is that? It is the Day of the Lord; it is the day that the apostles asked Jesus
about. You remember that they came to the Lord Jesus when He went to the top of the Mount of
Olives and asked Him first, “When shall these things be?” (Matthew 24:3). When will there not
be left here one stone upon another? (See verse 2.) He told them that when they would see
Jerusalem compassed with armies they would know the time had come. That happened in A.D.
70. I’m of the opinion that several of the apostles were there. Perhaps they climbed up on the
battlements of the walls of Jerusalem and looked over. When they saw the standard, the eagles
of the Roman government of Titus there, I think one apostle nudged the other and said, “This is
what He was talking about. This is it! It has come to pass.” Titus destroyed Jerusalem just as the
Lord Jesus said, and not one stone was left upon another. Let me repeat what I said in another
message – it bears repeating. If you doubt that one stone was not left upon another, look at the
wailing wall in Jerusalem today. The thing that amazes me about the western wall is the kinds of
stones that are in it. There are stones from Solomon’s temple, from the temple days of Ezra and
Haggai and from every other period. One stone was not left upon another when Titus took
Jerusalem. And that prophecy was fulfilled.
They had another question: What is the sign of the end of the age? Now that is what Paul is
talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The Lord Jesus labeled the end of the age as the Great
Tribulation period. I didn’t label it. No evangelical labeled it. The Lord Jesus is the One who
labeled it the Great Tribulation period (Matthew 24:21). He said there would be nothing like it
in the history of the world.
Now let’s look at this again:
Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except
8there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of
perdition. (2 Thessalonians 2:3)
The word I’m interested in here is “the falling away first.” And when I made a study of this
word, I just had to stand up in my study and say, “Hallelujah!” What a wonderful revelation it
was to see the root meaning of the word. Now the word in Greek is apostasia and it comes from
apostasis. The root word means “departure” or “removal from.” And the verb means “to
remove, to depart, to leave.” It comes from two words: histemi, meaning “to stand,” and apo,
meaning “away from.” From this we get our word apostasy. Apostates, we understand today, are
men who held the truth at one time. They’ve stood for the truth of Scripture and now they apohistemi, they stand away from it.
That’s one meaning of the word. But that’s not all the meaning of this word. The primary
meaning is “a departure.” Paul says that day shall not come until the “falling away” or “departure.” What departure is he talking about? Well, the same departure he talked about in his first
epistle to the Thessalonians. That’s the Rapture of the church. The church is going to depart
from this earth. The Rapture is the removal of the church, the departure of the church from the
earth. Paul dwelt on that in his first epistle when he was answering their question about their
loved ones:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise
first; then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up…. (1 Thessalonians
4:16, 17)
This is an apohistemi, that’s a departure. And to me the word that Paul uses is marvelous
because it speaks of two things. It speaks of two departures, because the whole church is to apostatize:
1. The true church is to leave the earth;
2. The professing church will just move away from the truth.
The Lord Jesus said, “When the Son of man cometh, shall he find [the] faith on the earth?”
(Luke 18: eight). That is, will He find that the body of truth, the apostles’ doctrine, is still held? In
the original Greek the question is phrased in such a way that it demands a negative answer. The
professing church will have departed so far from the faith that in the seventeenth chapter of
Revelation it is called the harlot. The true church, called the Bride of Christ, has been caught up
to meet Him. That departure must come first. As we saw in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, “… that day
shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son
of perdition.” In other words, the Antichrist cannot appear until the true church departs from this
earth. Now we have this twofold meaning. Some shall depart from the faith, and some shall
depart from the earth. The departure of the true church from the earth brings in total apostasy;
so that what the Lord Jesus said about not finding faith on the earth when He comes will be fulfilled.
Now from the viewpoint of the earth, it will be a departure. From the viewpoint of heaven,
it will be a rapture; they will be caught up – apostasia. That will be the leaving, the departure,
9of the true church. I think that the world is going to say at that time, “They’re gone. They’ve
departed. They’ve left us.” And if they are ever to say, “Hallelujah,” that’s when they’ll say it.
The world will rejoice at first. Antichrist will make them believe that they’re entering the
Millennium when actually they will be entering the Tribulation. That, I think, is the big lie. The
world will think they’re bringing in the Millennium. And, my friend, haven’t you voted already
for many candidates who promised to bring peace to this world? Didn’t Woodrow Wilson promise it as far back as 1917? And hasn’t peace been the platform of many men since then? Don’t
misunderstand – these men are sincere. They’re not antichrists. But they tried to bring peace to
the earth. You and I both know that when the man appears on the scene who tells this war-weary
world, “We’re going to have peace, and I’m going to bring it,” they will say, “Bring him on. We
turn it all over to him.” And the world would take him today in five minutes if he appeared.
Only God is holding him back. God is not going to let him appear until He calls out His church,
and He alone knows when that time will be fulfilled.
The world will be rejoicing as the Antichrist begins his rule. But it’s going to be the saddest
day this earth has ever seen, because it means the departure of the church and the entrance of
the world into an awful period identified by Christ as the Great Tribulation.
I saw this illustrated some time ago. We were out at the airport getting ready to take a plane
to go back East. We had quite a bit of time to spend because we always get there early. So I
spent some time walking around. There was a plane getting ready to leave for the Hawaiian
Islands, and I am always interested in going to the Hawaiian Islands, so I just looked at the folk
who were going. Most of them were going out for a holiday. But I saw a couple sitting there, a
soldier boy in uniform, a fine looking young fellow, and beside him the prettiest little wife
you’ve ever seen, holding a fine looking baby. And they were both sad. Everybody else going to
the Hawaiian Islands was anticipating the fun they were going to have, but he was on his way to
Hawaii to join his outfit going to Vietnam. There sat that fellow and there sat the girl. They
weren’t saying anything. They were just staring out into space. The little boy didn’t know what
it was all about, so he was having a big time. When the call came to board the plane, they stood
up. I saw him put those great big arms around both of them, his wife and that little boy. And he
kissed both of them. Tears were coming down his cheeks and tears were coming down her
cheeks. The little boy, he was still having a big time. And then the fellow picked up his little old
bag he had there, started out to the plane, and disappeared. The girl stood there, then she went
over to the window and waited till the plane pulled out to get on the runway. I watched her as
she went away carrying that baby and carrying that bag you women have to carry when you’ve
got a baby. She was weighted down. I never felt as sorry for anyone as I did for that girl. I wondered what the future held. Was there a father or a mother she would go to, or would she have
to live alone and take care of that baby by herself? I don’t know, but it was sad to see.
I thought, That’s the way it’s going to be on this earth someday when the departure, the
Rapture, takes place. The earth will rejoice for awhile, but then a great company of people are
going to begin to wake up. They will find they’ve been deceived. The man who promised peace
is Antichrist, not Christ at all. He has taken them in; he has absolutely deceived them.
http://www.thruthebible.org/atf/cf/%7B91e2424c-636c-40c2-9c55-890588e90ece%7D/Who%20is%20Antichrist.pdf


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 13, 2011, 08:42:38 am
Thanks, but I still don't see it.

 really?  ???

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


As clearly shown here, the antichrist IE: that man of sin, must be revealed first. We will know who the antichrist is.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 13, 2011, 09:14:36 am
The rapture of the church precedes the beginning of the Day of the Lord.


The first epistle to the Thessalonians deals with the Rapture, Christ’s
coming for believers. The second epistle relates the return of Christ
to that phase where He returns to the earth in judgment and
where one of the accomplishments is in connection with the “man
of sin,” whom He “shall destroy with the brightness of his coming”
(2 Thessalonians 2:eight). These two aspects are clearly delineated. The
interval between these two phases is the Great Tribulation, which can
be further identified with the 70th week of Daniel 9 as a period of
seven years.
THE DAY OF THE LORD:
This is the phrase which occurs in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 (incorrectly
translated “the day of Christ” in the Authorized Version). It is an Old
Testament phrase with definite connotations. It occurs in the writings
of the Old Testament prophets where it relates to the future kingdom
promised in the Old Testament. The day of Christ is a New Testament
expression (1 Corinthians 1:eight); it relates here to the future of the
church. The day of the Lord is connected with the coming of Christ
as it relates to the setting up of the kingdom.
The day of Christ is connected with the coming of Christ for the church. Whatever else is
implied in these two statements, certainly this is basic.
The teaching in 1 Thessalonians is that the saints who have died
will have part in Christ’s coming for His living saints; in 2
Thessalonians it is that the saints who are alive will not have part in
the Great Tribulation. The return of Christ has a peculiar and precious
meaning for His saints.
 J. Vernon Mcgee
http://thruthebible.ca/notes/1-2_Thessalonians.pdf


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 13, 2011, 09:59:21 am
Personally, I like the late Pastor McGee - I read one of his books where he talked about the book of Malachi. It is excellent.

However, we always have to search the scriptures FIRST to find out the truth. No, I'm not saying McGee is trying to lie or distort anything, but he's just a man(like all of us), and is obviously not infallible. I like him, but I certainly don't agree with him on this particular issue.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 13, 2011, 11:08:58 am
the Day of the Lord starts with the signing of the treaty. Not before, not with the Rapture, not with the rise of the antichrist. Only with the signing of the treaty. In order for the AntiChrist to broker the treaty he has to be rising in power before it happens. So we will be able to discern who he is. No one will believe us, but we should be able to discern who it might be.

The Tribulation starts with the signing of the 7year treaty with Israel and the world, not before that.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 13, 2011, 11:11:12 am
Quote
This is the phrase which occurs in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 (incorrectly
translated “the day of Christ” in the Authorized Version)

Jesus is God, so the Day of Christ works. Also the word here IS
3G5547
Χριστός
Christos
khris-tos'
From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

so it is translated correct.  Jesus is Lord.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 13, 2011, 12:11:02 pm
Then how do you explain this?

 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Me? He who letteth = Holy Spirit, which will be taken out of the way with the rapture of the church. Lawlessness will run rampant, then the ac will be revealed, coming on the scene offering peace and hope. We will probably know who he is human-wise before the rapture, but I don't believe we will know he will become the ac.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 13, 2011, 12:16:48 pm
Then how do you explain this?

 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Me? He who letteth = Holy Spirit, which will be taken out of the way with the rapture of the church. Lawlessness will run rampant, then the ac will be revealed, coming on the scene offering peace and hope. We will probably know who he is human-wise before the rapture, but I don't believe we will know he will become the ac.


meaning that he will rise to full power AFTER the rapture. When the true church is removed the Antichrist will have no one to oppose him anywhere in the world except for the 2 witnesses that appear in Israel.

There is still no conflict. The Antichrist will start his rise to power before the rapture, and assume full power after. That is the only way he can broker the treaty with any power behind it.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 13, 2011, 12:37:31 pm
The word "revealed" doesn't mean rise to power.

ἀποκαλύπτω
to uncover
ἀποκαλύπτω
to take off the cover, i.e. disclose
Derivation: from G575 and G2572;
KJV Usage: reveal. G575 G2572
Thayer:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 13, 2011, 12:47:31 pm
The word "revealed" doesn't mean rise to power.

ἀποκαλύπτω
to uncover
ἀποκαλύπτω
to take off the cover, i.e. disclose
Derivation: from G575 and G2572;
KJV Usage: reveal. G575 G2572
Thayer:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown

He isnt fully revealed until AFTER the rapture. He comes to power before the Rapture. Im not getting what you do not understand here.  ???

He rises to power before the rapture, meaning he comes onto the world stage. After the rapture he will be fully empowered and takes over.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 13, 2011, 12:53:54 pm


He rises to power before the rapture, meaning he comes onto the world stage.


This is what I am not finding anywhere.
BTW, I really appreciate/enjoy this discussion with brothers in Christ!


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 13, 2011, 02:22:05 pm
This is what I am not finding anywhere.
BTW, I really appreciate/enjoy this discussion with brothers in Christ!

How do you think he is going to take over? Just show up one day? He has to get to a point of prominence some how. How do you think he gets his authority and is able to broker a treaty between Israel and the World?

Could you just go out and do it or would you have to rise to some sort of power first? probably by running and winning a local election than move to a state election than to congress or the senate. That is how you rise to power in America. Im sure its similar in Europe. So some where out there the antichrist right now could by a minor official or elected official somewhere, rising to power.

No the Tribulation starts the day he signs the treaty with Israel, not at the rapture. The Rapture could happen months or even years until the treaty is signed, although i believe it will be just a matter of months in between. SO the antichrist must be revealed before the rapture, meaning he will be a world player with publicity. After the rapture, he will be fully revealed as the ANTICHRIST to the whole world.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on October 13, 2011, 02:27:26 pm
Hey pavelow, if I may, I need to address the following from you. I believe it is the core of why your not getting it. You are basing you understanding on a false doctrine from the start....

Quote
The primary
meaning is “a departure.” Paul says that day shall not come until the “falling away” or “departure.” What departure is he talking about? Well, the same departure he talked about in his first
epistle to the Thessalonians. That’s the Rapture of the church. The church is going to depart
from this earth.

I'm sorry, but I believe that to be a complete misunderstanding of the scriptures. Your simply wrong. Paul was not talking about a physical removal of the body of Christ at all, he was talking about a "falling away" of the apostate church, what we call "churchianity" in the world. I believe what he is referring to is churchianity will end up bowing to the world, like all other worldly relgions are doing, subject to their respective governments. Churchanity is the apostacy, it is the "falling away", or "departure", and it will get much worse.

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Hebrews 3:12 (KJB)

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." 1 John 2:9 (KJB)

2 Thessalonians 2:3 is not talking about the "rapture" of the body of Christ. It's about the revealing of the apostate churchianity. It's the seperating the wheat from the chaff. The purpose is to expose who the frauds are, but to the unbelieving world who don't know any better not having spiritual discernment, they will think this "new" spirit of friendship in the world among all religions is so cool, like one big happy family, all worshiping the "god of this world".

And "that day" is also "the day of redemption". Many names and ways to refer to the day Jesus returns in His glory, remembering that we are sealed by the Holy Ghost until the "day of redemption".

One could refer to unbelieveing mankind as "that man of sin", but it's not the case, as the verse is talking about a specific person, not a group of people or ideology.

The "son of perdition" is none other than the Antichrist, the first beast out of the sea. The one with seven heads and ten horns. "even he is the eighth, and goeth into perdition".

9   And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  
10   And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.  
11   And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.  
12   And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.  
13   These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.  
Revelation 17:9-13 (KJB)


Don't let the description of the 7-headed beast with the Great Wh0re in Revelation 17 as being THE description by overlooking the part where it says "even he is the eighth".

It's pointing out one aspect of the first beast, the "son of perdition", which is that he has a wordly government or group behind him that literally and physically runs the world for him, the antichrist system of the world. And it says clearly the "he", a specific person, is "of the seven".

Just like there is a spiritual aspect of Jesus that we are to focus on, but there is still a physical, literal Jesus. In fact, whatever is not of God is carnal and not spiritual, so that fact demands there be a physical representation of the "son of perdition", THE Antichrist.

I believe the apostate deception, the "strong delusion", is that people don't believe there will be a specific person rise to power and sign a treaty in Jerusalem. It won't even dawn on them what's going on because they can't see it without the Spirit. I believe this doctrine is born out of the attitude that bible prophecy is just metaphors and symbology, and it's not real actual events. They'll be too busy looking for some big bad sinister group of people, and not even see the "son of perdition" show up. Classic misdirection, and the root of deception.

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." 2 Timothy 3:13 (KJB)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: akfools on October 13, 2011, 02:39:15 pm
Websters 1828 defines Falling as:
FALL'ING, ppr. Descending; dropping; disemboguing; apostatizing; declining; decreasing; sinking; coming.

G646 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries)
G646 ἀποστασία apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah) n.
1. defection from truth (properly, the state)
2. "apostasy"
[feminine of the same as G647]
KJV: falling away, forsake
Root(s): G647


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 13, 2011, 02:43:59 pm
i read that and meant to come back to it, but i found a mormon on PPF to debate with.  8)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 14, 2011, 09:46:04 am
He isnt fully revealed until AFTER the rapture. He comes to power before the Rapture. Im not getting what you do not understand here.  ???

He rises to power before the rapture, meaning he comes onto the world stage. After the rapture he will be fully empowered and takes over.

???

So if he rises to power before the rapture wouldn't the discerning Christian know the rapture is coming soon?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 14, 2011, 10:06:16 am
???

So if he rises to power before the rapture wouldn't the discerning Christian know the rapture is coming soon?

yep... Jesus himself said to Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." -



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 14, 2011, 12:22:04 pm
yep... Jesus himself said to Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.



However, if the ac shows up before the rapture we will have a pretty good idea the rapture will be happening shortly.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 14, 2011, 12:23:15 pm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/Golden/sgdb-chap_05.htm

Who Is the Antichrist?

by Pastor Lee Roberson, D.D.

 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called GOD, or that is worshipped; so that he as GOD sitteth in the temple of GOD, shewing himself that he is GOD." — II THESSALONIANS 2:3, 4

The word "Antichrist" is given to us in 1st John 2:18, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heart that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

"Anti" means against. There is coming one who is against Christ. The Word tells us that this person will reveal himself after the Holy Spirit has been taken out of the way.

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." -- II Thessalonians 2:7-10

The Antichrist will be a man of great power and authority, and will be the personal agent of Satan himself. The Antichrist will be revealed in all his wonder-working power after the rapture of the saints and the taking away of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Antichrist will have his great period in the seven years between the rapture of the saints and the revelation of Christ, this period which is known as the Great Tribulation.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 14, 2011, 12:27:29 pm
This I could see:

 The Bible says that the antichrist will be revealed AFTER the rapture, but the Bible does not say that he won't be politically active before it.  I sincerely believe that the antichrist is already politically active.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/End%20of%20the%20World/left_behind_at_the_rapture.htm


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: pavelow on October 14, 2011, 12:48:42 pm
Pastor Jack Hyles believes the same as Dr. Mcgee:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/Dr%20Jack%20Hyles/Meet%20The%20Holy%20Spirit/holyspirit_and_the_endtime.htm


2. The rapture of the saints must take place.  2nd Thessalonians 2:7b, "Only He Who now letteth will let, until He be taken out of the way."  The work "let" here means "to hinder."  There seems to be someone hindering the mystery of iniquity.  This someone, of course, is the Holy Spirit.  He does this hindering to His people who are the salt of the earth.  Now notice the words inverse 7, "until He be taken out of the way."  This means the Holy Spirit will continue to hinder the mystery of iniquity until that day comes when He is taken out of the way.  This is the rapture when God's people are caught up to meet the Lord in the air; the dead will raise first, followed by those of us who are alive and remain.  Now notice in II Thessalonians 2:1 the words, "by our gathering together unto Him," which speak of the same event-the rapture.  Read further in 2nd Thessalonians 2:2, 3.  The Apostle says that that day, that is, the tribulation period, cannot come "except there be a falling away first." The term "falling away" is also translated "departure." This, no doubt, speaks of the rapture.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 14, 2011, 01:02:37 pm
the falling away is not the rapture. this has been addressed here: http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,3410.msg11411.html#msg11411


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 14, 2011, 03:36:04 pm
Dok and Kilika, was wondering your opinion on this-

Will there be some sort of global event RIGHT BEFORE the Rev 13 beast emerges? For example, do you think something like World War 3, Global Pandemic, Global Economic Collapse, etc will happen until the man of sin shows up and acts like he has all the answers?

Also, remember that tv show "The Dead Zone" - Anthony Michael Hall played a character that got into a car accident, which left him with (witchcraft)psychic powers. It was toward the end of the series when this mysterious, young hot-shot figure appeared out of nowhere to win a Congressional seat in the northeast. It was during the campaign when people around him were mysteriously dying, and his charisma shot up him to the Vice Presidency in only 2 years. During this time, it went right under Hall's nose(even his "psychic" powers didn't leave him a hint), however, he kept having visions of an asteroid hitting the House of Congress(which made the viewer to believe that this mysterious figure would emerge as the charismatic OWG antichrist leader).


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 14, 2011, 03:39:43 pm
Pastor Jack Hyles believes the same as Dr. Mcgee:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/Dr%20Jack%20Hyles/Meet%20The%20Holy%20Spirit/holyspirit_and_the_endtime.htm


2. The rapture of the saints must take place.  2nd Thessalonians 2:7b, "Only He Who now letteth will let, until He be taken out of the way."  The work "let" here means "to hinder."  There seems to be someone hindering the mystery of iniquity.  This someone, of course, is the Holy Spirit.  He does this hindering to His people who are the salt of the earth.  Now notice the words inverse 7, "until He be taken out of the way."  This means the Holy Spirit will continue to hinder the mystery of iniquity until that day comes when He is taken out of the way.  This is the rapture when God's people are caught up to meet the Lord in the air; the dead will raise first, followed by those of us who are alive and remain.  Now notice in II Thessalonians 2:1 the words, "by our gathering together unto Him," which speak of the same event-the rapture.  Read further in 2nd Thessalonians 2:2, 3.  The Apostle says that that day, that is, the tribulation period, cannot come "except there be a falling away first." The term "falling away" is also translated "departure." This, no doubt, speaks of the rapture.

I'm not saying these people are heretics or anything(like I said, personally I like McGee, although I'm not a fan of Hyles), but we need to go back and stick to scripture instead of repeating what other people say. Believe me, I myself make this error every now and then. Again, not that these people are heretics, but they're not exactly infallible and are prone to error(like all of us are).

Gal 1:11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:13  For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Gal 1:14  And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16  To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on October 15, 2011, 03:48:21 am
If there is any specific "event", I'd say it may be over Jerusalem and the "peace process" in Israel. Major fighting may break out and look like it's going to get out of control possibly. Outside of something like that, I don't think it will be any obvious event, but just a collection of events, a downward spiral into chaos if something isn't done quickly kind of sales pitch.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 15, 2011, 06:38:49 am
Dok and Kilika, was wondering your opinion on this-

Will there be some sort of global event RIGHT BEFORE the Rev 13 beast emerges? For example, do you think something like World War 3, Global Pandemic, Global Economic Collapse, etc will happen until the man of sin shows up and acts like he has all the answers?

Also, remember that tv show "The Dead Zone" - Anthony Michael Hall played a character that got into a car accident, which left him with (witchcraft)psychic powers. It was toward the end of the series when this mysterious, young hot-shot figure appeared out of nowhere to win a Congressional seat in the northeast. It was during the campaign when people around him were mysteriously dying, and his charisma shot up him to the Vice Presidency in only 2 years. During this time, it went right under Hall's nose(even his "psychic" powers didn't leave him a hint), however, he kept having visions of an asteroid hitting the House of Congress(which made the viewer to believe that this mysterious figure would emerge as the charismatic OWG antichrist leader).

we are living it right now, just read the news.  ??? All the signs are happening right now as we speak. Its like we are on the rim of a whirl pool, you can look down and see what is coming and all the signs that point to it.

Quote
101 Last Days Prophecies UPDATED!

"Behold, the former things have come to pass, And new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them." (Isaiah 42:9)

"Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure'."
(Isaiah 46:9-10)

“Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He."
(John 13:19)

The Bible foretells many signs that would culminate in the last days. Jesus indicated these signs would arise together as His return drew near (Matthew 24:33-34). Though many of these prophecies won’t climax until the tribulation period, our generation is the first to see every trend in place. As the final seconds of this age tick away, these events will come into even clearer focus. Keep in mind as you read through this list that these prophecies were penned 1900 to 3500 years ago! How does this relate to you? The last several pages provide the answer – you need to read them carefully.

"Birth Pangs"

FULL BOOK ONLINE UPDATED http://www.eternal-productions.org/101prophecy.html


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Overcast on October 26, 2011, 03:19:03 pm
If there is any specific "event", I'd say it may be over Jerusalem and the "peace process" in Israel. Major fighting may break out and look like it's going to get out of control possibly. Outside of something like that, I don't think it will be any obvious event, but just a collection of events, a downward spiral into chaos if something isn't done quickly kind of sales pitch.

I've kinda always imagined the time-line like this - of course, this is pure conjecture..

1. Socio-Economic Collapse, world wide. Mass Starvation and such - due to the New World Government attempting to control things, and failing miserably.

2. After a time, a 'savior' in the secular sense of the word, arises to 'solve the problems' of the nations. This part seems self-evident, in that... who would need a savior if you aren't in peril?

3. Part of that will be a requirement of Israel and others to come to a 'peace agreement'...

Of course, the actual timing of the rapture - I have no idea. I see the reasoning behind various rapture theories, but in the end; personally, I'm going to live as though it won't happen. One thing has concerned me, is it the concept of the rapture is deceit to make Christians non-vigilant of the times, expecting that 'escape clause' to save them.

Now, that being said I lean toward it happening more so that not, but I've always been curious if we (man) is wrong at interpreting that part. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong; I just don't know in this specific case.

Of course, with so many people dying in those days, no one (living) may ever be aware that it happened. Just one day, those pesky Christians seemed to just go away...


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 26, 2011, 05:29:32 pm
Well yeah, I agree, I think some, especially those we see on the airwaves alot, have this misperception that the rapture can happen 5 minutes from now, meaning we could be out bowling somewhere, or taking a walk in the park, and *poof*. Honestly, while I'm post-trib, I'm really not 100% sure when God will take his church out. Both the pre and post tribbers have very good points, but at the same time both have their share of flaws, which is why these debates end up going into infinity(no, I'm not calling anyone out here in particular). And yes, like Dok said, the antichrist has to reveal himself FIRST, as 2nd The 2 says. So no, it's not like it will happen as I'm typing this.

Anyhow - I saw an old end times movie titled "Years of the Beast" uploaded on youtube late last night - while I don't buy into the imminent rapture/before the AC appears, I thought it was pretty well presented. Although my only gripe is that they turned the last act of the film into an "escapism" event that's not in the book of Revelation(I won't go into details here, but I think you know what I'm talking about). But overall, I thought it was pretty good. Just about everything they talked about in this 70's/early 80's movie - Martial Law, Food Shortages, Police State, Gun Control, the mother of ALL wars, New World Order, "Unity", Israel, the list goes on and on - we are seeing THESE things pass before our eyes RIGHT now(!). I mean they were NOT talking about these things THEN that we are hearing NOW.

There was also another end times rapture movie I saw after that, "Gone" - honestly, I would NOT recommend it b/c the only times they mentioned Jesus in it was at the end, and only once prior to it. It really had a New-Agey feel to it. Yes, there were talks in over warning about the end times and God's wrath to come, etc, etc. However, it was one of those "Christian" media productions where it felt like the Illuminati had their fingerprints all over it.

However, a few things was able to catch in it - 1) one of the main characters pointed out how the nation's and world's mainstream media is controlled by a few powerful men, 2) They decifered Bill Gates's name via the computer code(or whatever you call it) to 666, 3) They talked about how the "powerful elite" distracted the public with all these idol entertainment figures like movie and sports stars, 4) The 3 characters in it graduated from prestigious law schools and were only a few years away from achieving partnership in their firm(they were just acting very unclean, although one of them had a conscience bothering him, and were deceived into believing that they were being given opportunities to shape the world into a better new world order place, despite given the green light to step on everyone's toes) - the reason why I bring up #4 is b/c Kilika made a thread in the Bible Study form over "ye don't work, ye don't eat"(no, that's not the thread title, but the title is in quotes and it's recent, please look there) - we were discussing over there that there are ALOT of traps into being "career-minded", and how putting our faith in this keeps us away from the word of God. I almost immediately thought of this thread and discussion when I saw these 3 men working their way up the corporate ladder while stepping on everyone's toes. It was just WICKED.

Toward the end of this movie when the antichrist was releaved, one of the men admitted this was one of Satan's tactics to keep us away from the word of God(by putting them in these "prestigious" high paying, albeit very wicked jobs). Anyhow, like I said, I do NOT recommend this movie at all. But this were the few things that popped out at me while viewing them.

Overall, it seems like these older end times movies that brought up all these prophecies in it, we are seeing them RIGHT before our very eyes RIGHT NOW!


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Overcast on October 26, 2011, 09:39:45 pm

Overall, it seems like these older end times movies that brought up all these prophecies in it, we are seeing them RIGHT before our very eyes RIGHT NOW!

I remember and old one, about a group of teens - that end up getting beheaded - I forget the name, but it was 70's era. Kinda had that B-Movie corniness to it, but it had a more solid message of salvation in it.

And yes, that's interesting - it would almost seem the most 'physical proof' that the Bible is in fact the true gospel; is that the secular world is step by step proving it right. Like it or not. I guess this is where we can start to see the "powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie" part, eh?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Overcast on October 26, 2011, 09:54:43 pm
Quote
They decifered Bill Gates's name via the computer code(or whatever you call it) to 666

Yeah -  ACSII.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII (MS-DOS, the first Microsoft OS revolved around it for I/O).


http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/5639.htm

 By converting the letters of his current name to the  ASCII-values and
 adding his (III), you get the following:
      |       B  66
      |       I  73
      |       L  76
      |       L  76
      |       G  71
      |       A  65
      |       T  84
      |       E  69
      |       S  83
      |       I   1
      |       I   1
      |       I   1
      |     --------------
      |        666


But that doesn't totally pan out - the "I" is not a value of 1, even 'one' the number, is not a value of one.

The more.. interesting thing I have found in regards to the 'number' - is that that sixth letter of the hebrew alphabet is 'W' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waw_%28letter%29

So if one was to convert the ever popular 'WWW' into numeric value in Hebrew, you'd end up with '666'. I've always considered that part of the 'beast' revelations eludes to is an 'it' - a concept, or a system and not a man.

But that kind of plays into a 'mockery' of the trinity..

The Father: Satan
The Son: False Prophet (Man)
The Holy Spirit: a 'system'

Makes sense to me that the mockery and it's parts would have to be the closest equivalent possible..


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on October 27, 2011, 03:50:29 am
I've considerd the "www" thing too. And I think it's more than just a coincidence.

As it says, "for it is the number of a man..." And that has had me thinking about it for a long time. It fits. What is the basis for computers and electronics? 1's and 0's. Numbers of men, and they form the basis for the www, as well as all items that make up the beast digital system.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Overcast on October 27, 2011, 10:25:23 am
I've considerd the "www" thing too. And I think it's more than just a coincidence.

As it says, "for it is the number of a man..." And that has had me thinking about it for a long time. It fits. What is the basis for computers and electronics? 1's and 0's. Numbers of men, and they form the basis for the www, as well as all items that make up the beast digital system.

And this will be the 'beast' that controls buying and selling... it's the only one in material terms; that is capable of even doing that.

I'm no mathematical genuis, by any means, but also '666' is a 'triangular number' - meaning it can be looked at in 3 different ways, or I guess 'form a triangle' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_numbers

Also - most of the early computers; unlike today's computers that use 8 bits - they used 6 bits..

First used on the IBM 701 in the early 1950's, and used on essentially all machines designed prior to 1965. The predominance of word sizes that are a multiple of 6 on machines designed in this era is completely explained by the dominance of 6 bit bytes! In early usage, the term byte was never used! Most early machines that supported 6-bit things either called them characters or digits.

It's interesting - because from a number of angles we can see what it leads to - yet I don't think we've seen all of the symbolism pan out on this - just yet.





Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: 2BeNoticed on October 27, 2011, 11:08:15 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZtsUTsB3gg&feature=related


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on October 27, 2011, 01:29:53 pm
That's true, 8 bits equals 1 byte. That's 1's and 0's stuff, the very basis of computing. Actually, I didn't know about the early 6-bit thing. Interesting.

666 or 999, the same thing, eh Herman!


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: PeanutGallery on October 27, 2011, 04:15:50 pm
6 is the same whether 6-bit or 8-bit.
0   0   0   1  1   0          0     0   0  0   0   1  1   0
__ __ __ __ __ __       __   __ __ __ __ __ __ __
32 16  8  4   2   1        128  64 32 16  8   4  2   1


------------------
Thus the 666 on bar-codes = 11 11 11



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Overcast on October 27, 2011, 05:31:05 pm
6 is the same whether 6-bit or 8-bit.
0   0   0   1  1   0          0     0   0  0   0   1  1   0
__ __ __ __ __ __       __   __ __ __ __ __ __ __
32 16  8  4   2   1        128  64 32 16  8   4  2   1


------------------
Thus the 666 on bar-codes = 11 11 11



Was just interesting tid-bit from History too - and it seems to get harder to find that each year..

Yeah - I've heard the barcode thing. I forget who had a video on that.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on October 28, 2011, 03:13:14 am
Yeah, you got me peanut! I'm a hardware maintenance guy that had to have a couple programming classes to get by. While I have wrote very basic coded for a basic programming class, that's pretty much the extent of my coding experience.

I use to be able to read binary, hexadecimal, etc but that was years ago.

I've seen the barcode stuff too, in articles and video. It's been mentioned in more than one video. But I haven't seen a decent explanation, just that "oh, those aren't part of the barcode, so they don't count as numbers", etc. Mmmkay, whatever.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 28, 2011, 10:52:35 pm
Speaking of numerology, is it just me, or has everyone else noticed the number 11 has been popping up very frequently over the last couple of years? I mean not just in a few places, but just everywhere you see and go, etc, etc?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 27, 2012, 12:46:28 pm
Am listening to New Order Barbarians now(a doctor who attended a private meeting, where a Planned Parenthood Medical Director revealed all of the NWO draconian plans).

Like I said, I lean post-trib, however, at the 15 minute mark of part 6, when he said that when the new system would usher in, the "resisters" wouldn't get martyred, per se, but there would be "disappearances", and an "announcement" would be made upon the entire world when this new system would be ushered in. I almost jumped in my chair when he said that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sxUudbFQy_8

Pt being that this isn't the only person from the dark side saying this - 1) C. Peter Wagner, one of the leaders of the NAR, said he no longer believes in the rapture, 2) In a video presentation Bryan made(Rediculous New Age Perverted Bibles, or something like that), he showed a pseudo-Christian magazine, and showed a comment inside over how Christians would go through hard times in the "tribulation", and then get saved after that. Uhm...aren't believers ALREADY SAVED? 3) New Age leaders like Benjamine Creme and Barbara Marx Hubbard have talked about "disappearances" when their New Age "Christ" makes his emergence. 4) Steve Jackson's INWO card game has a "Tape Runs Out" card(which is said to be the rapture card - even New Ager David Icke, I think, says so as well)

Again, I'm not convinced, still, but it's not these wolves in sheep's clothing like John MacArthur, Hal Lindsey, Chuck Missler, Charles Stanley, John Hagee, etc pushing the pre-trib rapture. It's the ENEMIES on the DARK SIDE saying it'll happen.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 27, 2012, 01:32:22 pm
uhm, the Bible says it is going to happen, just Like the Bible says Israel was to come back in 1948. it happened, the Rapture will happen just as the BIBLE says so. not because some man says so. Even Satan believes


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 27, 2012, 05:55:22 pm
uhm, the Bible says it is going to happen, just Like the Bible says Israel was to come back in 1948. it happened, the Rapture will happen just as the BIBLE says so. not because some man says so. Even Satan believes


Well yeah, that was the pt I was trying to make - when he was going through every little detail through the 6 parts of the NWO draconian plans, lots of bible scriptures in the NT end times, Daniel, and the OT major prophets like Isaiah came to mind. While it sounded disheartening over what's been going on, at the same time Christians should rejoice that the prophecies in scripture are coming to pass.

With that being said, this is why I jumped out of my chair when toward the end, he said there was already an "announcement" planned to explain the "disappearances" when the new system gets ushered in. And this confirms with what other enemies with darkness have said. Maybe I need to go search the scriptures on the pre-trib view.

BTW - the very first KJV I read was from American Bible Society(which is partnered with the Catholics) - they have verses referencing one another if they deal with the same topic. For example, with end times stuff, they will link each scripture in footnotes b/w Rev, Daniel, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17 and 21, 1st The 4:13-18, and 2nd The 2...and somehow they came up with a post-trib view. Again, the ABS is partnered with the Catholics, so I guess you can throw them in line with the rest of the dark forces that either are expecting "disappearances" or telling everyone Christians will go through the tribulation.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Christian40 on October 27, 2012, 10:25:17 pm

Again, I'm not convinced, still, but it's not these wolves in sheep's clothing like John MacArthur, Hal Lindsey, Chuck Missler, Charles Stanley, John Hagee, etc pushing the pre-trib rapture. It's the ENEMIES on the DARK SIDE saying it'll happen.

Well there are wolves out there saying that there will be a post-trib rapture too so it comes down to what the KJV says.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on January 14, 2013, 10:35:45 am
Don't want to dig up this thread again, but I'll admit I'm starting to lean pre-trib. Don't have time now to get in all of the scriptures, but will say with further studying of the scriptures, I see a pre-trib rapture being possible.

Also notice too - do they teach pre-trib(or even futurist prophecies) at seminaries nowdays? Nope. Or how about the modern-day church? Not really. And doesn't the world mock at pre-trib/pre-mill? Yep.(especially the "truth" movement) Well, good 'ole Dave McPherson(whom we discussed here recently) went around bible seminaries warning how pre-trib is a hoax...thank you Dave b/c bible colleges rarely teach this anymore!

So does that make me part of the "falling away" now? J/k...really, Jesus Christ gave his promises to Christians in particular in the book of John.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Christian40 on January 14, 2013, 11:38:10 pm
Don't want to dig up this thread again, but I'll admit I'm starting to lean pre-trib. Don't have time now to get in all of the scriptures, but will say with further studying of the scriptures, I see a pre-trib rapture being possible.

i've been reading your posts and i could see you being challenged before and i was confident that you would see that the pre-trib rapture view is right. :)

Also notice too - do they teach pre-trib(or even futurist prophecies) at seminaries nowdays? Nope. Or how about the modern-day church? Not really. And doesn't the world mock at pre-trib/pre-mill? Yep.(especially the "truth" movement) Well, good 'ole Dave McPherson(whom we discussed here recently) went around bible seminaries warning how pre-trib is a hoax...thank you Dave b/c bible colleges rarely teach this anymore!

i'm not familiar with Dave McPherson thanks for marking him out yes there are preachers out there working very hard to breakdown true doctrines and breakdown the next generation of Pastors, the Lord will reward them according to their false works.

So does that make me part of the "falling away" now? J/k...really, Jesus Christ gave his promises to Christians in particular in the book of John.

your not falling away your standing with us and with God's word!


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on January 15, 2013, 04:04:11 am
The same ole' problem; there is no one set "rapture", yet people still try to make it that way.

If I'm anything, it's not "pre-trib". That's a false doctrine, sorry. People don't want to face the fact that we WILL face tribulation. And there will be a rapture, but it's not what they claim. There is more than one "rapture". It's easy for people to side with pre-trib because they don't want to face the coming tribulation, and many don't believe they will be safe during any tribulation, so they fear it and make up all kinds of stories to tell people so they won't freak out.

Point blank; believers are saved. So who cares if there is a rapture, tribulation or whatever? What's the point? The point is to cause divisions by telling lies to make people think they don't have to worry about it seeing they will be whisked away to safety!

Seriously, if churchianity is pushing pre-trib, beware, because it's a lie.

Quit listening to these false prophets and just read the scriptures. It's right there.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18 (KJB)

What part of these verses do people not understand?...(especially the whole chapter of John 17)

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 (KJB)

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." John 17:12 (KJB)

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15 (KJB)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on January 15, 2013, 04:21:01 am
thats not quite correct, there is 1 rapture that takes place after the appearance of the antichrist, and than there is 1 resurrection that takes place after the Lord returns to Earth and then there is the 2nd resurrection that takes place at the White Throne Judgment. All 3 of these are very easily found in the Bible. The resurrection after the Lord returns is not a rapture event as it only affects the people who died during the Great Tribulation. The Rapture which happens before, affects those who are alive and dead and are changed. And of course the final one affects everyone but not everyone is changed.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on January 15, 2013, 04:40:37 am
Thus I said there is more than one. Call it what you want, seeing the word isn't in scripture anyway, being an invention of churchianity. It's a moot argument. There is clearly more than one event. The lie is that there is a single "rapture" event before things get bad. I say bull, there is no pre-trib "rapture" where believers are pulled from the "fire" before it starts burning. Here's another one...

"And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God." Zechariah 13:9 (KJB)



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on January 15, 2013, 04:52:47 am
I pose this question...

If there is a "rapture" that takes believers out of the world before the tribulation period, then why did Jesus pray to the Father that He wouldn't take them out of the world, but rather keep them from the evil?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on January 15, 2013, 05:21:13 am
I pose this question...

If there is a "rapture" that takes believers out of the world before the tribulation period, then why did Jesus pray to the Father that He wouldn't take them out of the world, but rather keep them from the evil?

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


Looks like he is going to save us.... We are also in Heaven with him when he returns, how did we get there?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on January 15, 2013, 05:49:50 am
Thus I said there is more than one. Call it what you want, seeing the word isn't in scripture anyway, being an invention of churchianity. It's a moot argument. There is clearly more than one event. The lie is that there is a single "rapture" event before things get bad. I say bull, there is no pre-trib "rapture" where believers are pulled from the "fire" before it starts burning. Here's another one...

"And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God." Zechariah 13:9 (KJB)



no, there is a single rapture event and 2 ressurections, which are not like the rapture at all. You can call it the great snatch if you want, but getting fussy about a word that isnt in the ENGLISH Bible is a little redundit dont you think? I mean the word Trinity isnt in there either.

That verse isnt for Christians but the Jews them selves during the final days of the Trib, this verse is referensed by Jesus himself.

Matt 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


The LIE is that there isnt a rapture and this was started by the Catholic church all the way back in the late 400's. The True Church has always maintained the belief in the coming of the Lord to save his people before the endtimes in the air. History has proven this, the Catholics have always lied about it.

We all have tribulation in our lives, you had some not to long ago, that is not the same as the great and terrible day of the Lord, BIG difference, and YOU should know that.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on January 15, 2013, 08:44:41 am
Thus I said there is more than one. Call it what you want, seeing the word isn't in scripture anyway, being an invention of churchianity. It's a moot argument. There is clearly more than one event. The lie is that there is a single "rapture" event before things get bad. I say bull, there is no pre-trib "rapture" where believers are pulled from the "fire" before it starts burning. Here's another one...

"And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God." Zechariah 13:9 (KJB)



I understand what you're saying - but just to clarify...

1) Pre-trib or whatever you want to call it, modern-day Churchianity hasn't even mentioned a peep about it for quite some time. They don't even believe pre-mill anymore. Which is why I brought up that Dave McPherson guy - not that I ever endorsed bible seminaries, but a long time ago they were teaching pre-trib/pre-mill to their students, until McPherson came by "warning" them about this doctrine. Guess what...fast-forward to this present day, and ALMOST ZERO(with maybe the exception of Peter Ruckman's college) are teaching it. By and large they teach A-Mill/Preterism. BTW - McPherson's work is endorsed by Preterist web sites, which speaks volumes.

2) No, I never believed that the rapture(or whatever you want to call it) will happen 5 minutes from now(or week/month from now for that matter too) - both I and Mark discussed prior that things will get worse and worse before the Antichrist will make his appearance. Matthew 24, 1st and 2 Timothy, etc makes this very clear. As a matter of fact, as we're looking at current events in recent weeks, things are getting worse and worse right now.

Again, pre-trib or whatever you want to call it - just wanted to clarify these points.

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.


2Tim 3:1  This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4  Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


And let's not forget this passage...

Rev 3:7  And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8  I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on January 15, 2013, 08:54:10 am
I pose this question...

If there is a "rapture" that takes believers out of the world before the tribulation period, then why did Jesus pray to the Father that He wouldn't take them out of the world, but rather keep them from the evil?

One more thing...

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Pre-trib(or whatever you want to call it) - this passage here makes it clear the AC has to make his appearance first(notice the word "and" b/w "falling away" and "the man of sin be revealed").

Anyhow, just wanted to further clarify what Mark, I, and C40 have been talking about(ie-that the "pre-trib rapture" is not some event that will happen a few minutes or days from now). So yes, while Christians should have no fear whatsoever, there are going to be some very difficult times ahead.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on January 15, 2013, 04:34:32 pm
Before we get any further, let me say again, that this topic is not something I have studied to the extent of what "preterism" even is. Without looking up a definition, I don't know what "a-mill" is. That's churchainity terms that I never have been interested in learning. All I know is if what they say matches what I know scripture to say. I, we, don't really need to know the details of their blindness. Just the basics I think will do, but that's only my exhortation to keep things simple and focused so we don't get lost in the babble of churchianity-speak.

If you'll bear with me, understand that I think we are saying more or less the same. The difference is I think in each person's understanding of when a given verse takes place in time. So the first point starts with what verses define this first event referred to as "The Rapture"? What other verses are talking about this specific event?

Also a difference may be understanding of what the rapture itself is suppose to be.

I understand it to be the "taking up" of all believers at that point in time, dead and alive, before the seven year tribulation, leaving behind people that are lost, but do have during the tribulation the chance to repent and be saved, up and including the "Mark" period. These people go through all the tribulation period, and are under a "works" type salvation. Some of them will die during that seven years period, who will then "sleep" till the final coming, and at that time be raised up with those dead alive and meet Jesus and the rest of the saints and previously risen brethren "in the air", and seemingly immediately, "in the twinkling of an eye", are seen by the unbelieving world as returning with Jesus Christ.

So, you bring up great points BA I would like to address more, but let's focus on what Mark said first. I think that's where we are closest. I agree with you Mark, that there is more than one event. I guess what I dispute is the way it is being presented by churchianity; that "all believers have no worries, we'll all be yanked out before the evil shows up, and that's it. The evil people go through tribulation, it's all put down by Jesus in the end. End of story".

Quote
Quote from: Kilika on Today at 03:52:47 am
I pose this question...

If there is a "rapture" that takes believers out of the world before the tribulation period, then why did Jesus pray to the Father that He wouldn't take them out of the world, but rather keep them from the evil?

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Looks like he is going to save us.... We are also in Heaven with him when he returns, how did we get there

Now see, verse 10 is what I'm talking about, that's the "tribulation" I'm talking about that the church will be here for that the "rapture doctrine" seems to dispute, saying we will be taken out before such things even happen.

No question Jesus saves us from evil every day.

That "hour of temptation" is when on the timeline? Is that the "...deliver us from evil..." that we pray for?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on January 15, 2013, 04:58:12 pm
Interesting points - the key word to look at in Rev 3:10 is KEEP. But doesn't keep generally mean to guard? For example, when Jesus says to keep his commandments(which does NOT mean to do the 10 commandments, per se, as we're not under the OT law anymore), it means to keep his words(scripture) in your heart, right?

Psa_119:11  Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

which brings us to this...

2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


the "strong delusion" - whatever the "strong delusion" will be, let's say we're HERE when it happens. Does this mean that the believers in Christ will quickly discern the grand deception? And that is ANY believer, and not some so-called "mature" believer who's some scripture quoting scholar machine(if you know what I mean here).

Col 1:12  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on January 15, 2013, 05:21:47 pm
I'm not sure if that answers the question of when the "hour of temptation" is. Is it the same as the "strong delusion"? These two being one and the same event or period?

As Mark mentioned in another thread, the claim is there is a "Tribulation", then there is "The Great Tribulation", which I surmise to be the seven year period, while the "Tribulation" is what I'm meaning it seems, the lead up to that seven year period.

My understanding is that the common rapture claim is that the church won't experience ANY of these tribulations. I dispute that claim. We at least will see the "Tribulation", the increasingly bad times, but I agree these "beginnings of sorrows" are the ramp up to the seven year tribulation period.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on January 15, 2013, 05:34:54 pm
I'm not sure if that answers the question of when the "hour of temptation" is. Is it the same as the "strong delusion"? These two being one and the same event or period?

James 1:12  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


The reason why I put this passage here is b/c this is for the believer who has constant struggles in his or her flesh(as Paul discussed in Romans 7) - on the contrary, the "hour of temptation" in Rev 3:10 talks about how it will try THE WORLD, and NOT the believer's daily struggle in the flesh.(at least that's how I understand it)

Quote
As Mark mentioned in another thread, the claim is there is a "Tribulation", then there is "The Great Tribulation", which I surmise to be the seven year period, while the "Tribulation" is what I'm meaning it seems, the lead up to that seven year period.

Yes, that's what I understand too - the "great tribulation" is the final 7 year period.

Mat_24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And the other verses talking about regular tribulation is concerning the believer, I agree.


Rom 5:3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


Quote
My understanding is that the common rapture claim is that the church won't experience ANY of these tribulations. I dispute that claim. We at least will see the "Tribulation", the increasingly bad times, but I agree these "beginnings of sorrows" are the ramp up to the seven year tribulation period.

Yeah, that was my point too - it's not like everything will be "peaceful and prosperous" before the snatching away. I don't know how bad/worse things will get before the snatching away, but as I understood in scripture, Jesus does say the believers WILL witness the "beginnings of sorrows"(the key words are "but the end is not yet..." in this passage).

Thoughts from anyone else? Have to go exercise now before it gets dark.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on January 15, 2013, 08:27:21 pm
Here's a couple of passages with tribulation(NOT the great tribulation, that is)...

Act 14:21  And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
Act 14:22  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


Rom 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


AND...

2Th 1:3  We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4  So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
:



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Christian40 on January 15, 2013, 10:17:03 pm
Thoughts from anyone else? Have to go exercise now before it gets dark.

if You take all the real Christians in the world now and see the percentage of Christians in tribulation and Christians already in persecution it would be pretty high so the key word is what tribulation means, those Christians in it now would love to see a Pre-trib rapture which is the Lord Jesus meeting the Church in the clouds. It is a blessed hope, it is encouragement to know that soon we will see the Lord Jesus, we look for the Lord Jesus and not the Antichrist. Who cares about the Antichrist when we have the power of the Lord Jesus to see. Whatever happens i will be trusting God.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on May 08, 2013, 09:51:08 pm
I have a few things to say/ask/quote. But first, let me preface by saying that I'm ultimately "pan-trib", but I'm 90% sure it's post-trib. Not because we have to "suffer" or anything like that, but merely by reading the Bible for what it is (the Bible means what it says and says what it means) and not reading things into scripture that aren't there, I have ALWAYS come to the conclusion of a post-trib rapture.

1. Who is the "elect" referred to in Matthew 24, Mark 13, etc?
It is the believers in Jesus Christ. Whether they be Jew or Gentile. There are 13 occurrences of the word "elect" in the New Testament. 1 is in reference to Jesus. 1 is in reference to angels. That makes 11 occurrences in the NT apart from the one about Christ and one about angels. 4 occur in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 (for example, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.") For the sake of argument, we'll leave those out for now. Who is being referred to in the other 7 occurrences?

Luke 18:7  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2 John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2 John 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

These are believers. Jew AND Gentile.

2. If the "he who now letteth will let" is the Holy Spirit working through the body of Christ, he must be removed from the earth (and the body of Christ with him) for the Antichrist to be revealed. If that is the case, HOW DOES ANYONE ELSE GET SAVED AFTER THAT? If the Holy Spirit is not there, you will not get saved. That includes the one-third of the Jews that the Bible clearly states will be saved during the Tribulation. They would not be able to get saved. The Bible merely states "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." One example of many where something needs to be read into the verse for a pre-trib to make sense Biblically.

3. None of you use the "We are not appointed unto wrath..." verse to justify pre-trib rapture theory, do you? It's one thing to Biblically back it with scripture, it's another thing to take one verse out of context like my church does with that one to justify it...

(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(Luke 21:36) " Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
(Ephesians 6:13) "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

Why would we need to pray that we be taken up in the pre-trib rapture? Merely by being saved you would be. And what is this evil day?

There's more, but I need to get to bed soon.

God bless  :)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 08, 2013, 10:27:04 pm
I have a few things to say/ask/quote. But first, let me preface by saying that I'm ultimately "pan-trib", but I'm 90% sure it's post-trib.

1 question you have to answer before i continue.

Rom 1:7  To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Zec 14:5  And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


So, as we can clearly see, we are all called saints who accept Jesus. SO how can we come back with him, when he returns, if we are not raised until he returns? If the Lord returns with all of his saints on horses, how did we get there? if we dont rise until he returns.

im sorry but the BIBLE teaches a pre trib rapture. there is no way around it. We return at the end of the trib WITH the Lord, because he came and got us before the Trib.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 08, 2013, 10:47:28 pm
Excellent Post, FervorForFaith - a couple things to point out...

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Compare this passage to...

1The 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Notice in the Matthew 24 passage, talking about Jesus's 2nd Coming, it mentions nothing about dead saints seeing the Lord mentioned in 1 The 4:13-18. The 1 The 4 passage says the saints(both the dead ones and the ones alive remaining) are rising in the air to meet the Lord, while the Matthew 24 passage says how it's the angels that gather together the elect.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Compare that to the 1 The 4:13-18 passage - again, says nothing about the saints(both dead and alive remaining) in the passage concerning the 6th seal.

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Look in your KJV - the words "which were" is italicized - if the rapture is post-trib, then why do they use past tense here? Obviously, the KJV translators knew what they were doing.

With that being said, no, I don't agree with the angle of the pre-trib theory that the rapture will happen imminently(like a week from now, tomorrow, or while I'm typing this post). There are things that need to come to pass before the 7 year trib starts - for example, IMHO, the AC won't just show up out of thin air after the rapture of the church(like most popular mainstream bible teachers like John MacArthur and Hal Lindsey would make you believe). There will likely be a world figure who slowly rises to popularity and power before he signs the Daniel 9:27 covenant. Christians, especially those who are watching in these last days, will notice him, but the lost world and the pseudo-Christian modern-day church won't.

Luke_21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


We're already seeing a falling away of the church here in America(and the world) - just NO biblical truth in these modern-day churches. Notice the word "and", it's NOT "then"(like the popular modern-day bible teachers want to make you believe) - IOW, we're seeing prophecy unfolding already with the falling away of the church. But when this world figure rises to popularity and power, we will notice him. Ultimately, you can still have a pre-trib rapture b/w the time he rises to popularity and when he signs the Daniel 9:27 covenant.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on May 09, 2013, 05:19:15 am
"For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it." 1 Corinthians 11:18 (KJB)

Because I'm not convinced, as well as I think it's not important and even a distraction, to be debating "pre or post trib", I tend to avoid this discussion. We are saved whether we are right or wrong about when we are caught up to "meet the Lord in the air".

The point to remember is that we will be shown what we need when we need it. Jesus promised us we would be shown things, that we would know our redemption "draweth nigh". So that means we will see certain changes in the world around us that lets us know the time is short.

But what I think some people tend to overlook is that there is two types of tribulation mentioned in scripture. There is the tribulation we experience while here, as part of the day to day dealings with the world because the world hates us. The other is "great tribulation", which is commonly thought to be the 7 year tribulation period, during which the trumpet, seals, and vials are unleashed.

One indicator that is mentioned is the "trumpet" that is mentioned as part of the great tribulation, and another mentioned as being "the trumpet shall sound..." seems to be connected to our "rapture", "the dead in Christ shall rise first..."

Are there two trumpet sounds? Or are these two one and the same trumpet? Also, pre-trib says we won't be here during the sounding of the trumpets, along with the opening of the seals, etc, as that's part of the great tribulation period, we are already gone by then, right?

Jesus clearly says, "In the world ye shall have tribulation...". That however is not a reference anything more than how we experience tribulation in the world, but it doesn't relate to any rapture. It's not the same type "tribulation". I mention this because some confuse certain verses as evidence of pre-trib, when in fact it's talking about the general tribulation we all experience each day in the world, and is not any indicator of a rapture.

More than one verse mentioned above have no relation to the rapture, such as the Matthew 24 verses. Notice that it says, "...from one end of heaven to the other." That verse to me shows the body of Christ already in heaven. It doesn't say earth, but heaven. If we have not been "raptured" yet, we obviously could not be in heaven to be gathered from one end to the other.

The key is where it says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days". Wait, stop. What tribulation? And what is being described as taking place after that tribulation? The return of Jesus, with His saints, the armies of God, gathered by His angels "from one end of heaven to the other". So is Matthew 24:29 talking about the "great tribulation" period? Seems so. That means then we need to go back in time to see what takes place during and before "the tribulation of those days", because from verse 29 on, the body is definitely in heaven already. NOW we have a baseline (determine when we are definitely here, and when we are no longer here) to work with on the timeline. So the latter Matthew 24 verses only help establish a point when we are no longer here, but in heaven. It needs to be defines what the tribulation is in verse 29, but it seems like THE tribulation period. By that time, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", we are already gone.

This I believe is one of the most telling verses on the topic...

Quote
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Notice it says "we". Who "we" are needs to be clarified.

The author is including himself in the group of those believers that are alive in the flesh on earth when Jesus returns, with His gathered armies. But, "we" in that verse are said to be on earth still, observing His return. So, how does that work? To say "we" is to refer to all believers, yet Matthew tells us that we are already with Jesus when He returns. Hmm. Somebody is wrong, and it ain't Jesus!

This is where some say that they are the people who were left on earth after the rapture, but have been born-again during the great tribulation and are still alive in the flesh on earth when Jesus returns "with ten thousands of his saints". I'm not seeing anything yet that refutes that. It doesn't not fit. This is where some say thta there is not a single "rapture", but more than one, a pre-trib of believers, then another at the time of Jesus' return with those saints who were raptured before the great tribulation period. Some have tried to make the case that there is even more than two "raptures", calling the taking up of Enoch as a rapture. That to me is a stretch of the word "rapture".

But it is clear to me that if there is such a thing as a pre-tribulation rapture, there is also a "rapture" of the seven year tribulation period new believers as Jesus returns as well.

So for what it's worth, attention needs to be paid to which tribulation is being talked about in a given verse, as both general and the great tribulation period are mentioned in and around end times related verses. The word "tribulation" is used generally throughout scripture, and specifically about the seven year tribulation period.

"No prophesy of scripture is of any private interpretation..."

No question, there is just one interpretation, so some of us are wrong, and must humble ourselves and let God shows us the error of our way.

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:10 (KJB)

"[Be] of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits." Romans 12:16 (KJB)

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Titus 3:9 (KJB)

"For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's." Romans 14:8 (KJB)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 09, 2013, 02:53:27 pm
Excellent discussion and analysis by all in this thread! :)

James_1:5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on May 12, 2013, 12:49:03 am
This is where some say that they are the people who were left on earth after the rapture, but have been born-again during the great tribulation and are still alive in the flesh on earth when Jesus returns "with ten thousands of his saints". I'm not seeing anything yet that refutes that. It doesn't not fit.

But how can anyone get saved if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the earth? "He who now letteth will let..." is commonly said to be the Holy Spirit working through the church. The Holy Spirit will be taken off the earth, and because the Holy Spirit lives inside a born again believer, we will be taken as well.

But if that's the case, no one can get saved after the pre-trib rapture, and we know that can't be (the one-third of Israel WILL get saved, as the Bible states).

(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(Luke 21:36) " Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
(Ephesians 6:13) "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

Why would we need to pray that we be taken up in the pre-trib rapture? Merely by being saved you would be. And what is this evil day? Could it be the day of the Lord?

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." (Isaiah 13:9)

"Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light." (Amos 5:20)

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)

"Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;" (Amos 6:3)

"The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly." (Zephaniah 1:14)

"Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come." (Joel 1:15)

Now granted, Revelation 6 is in reference to the Lamb, Jesus Christ. However:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5)

"As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus." (2 Corinthians 1:14)

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." (2 Thessalonians 2:2) (This lines up with Ephesians 6:13, where we need to take up the whole armor of God, basically to avoid deception)

We WILL be here for "the tribulation of those days", but we also WILL return with Christ at Armageddon. There is only one second coming of Christ.

(2 Thessalonians 2:1) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

is the same coming as:

[2 Thessalonians 2:8] "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

How exactly everything plays out we don't know, and I don't think we will know until it does play out. Remember that "we see through a glass, darkly..." and that:

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." (1 Thessalonians 5:2)

Thank you all and God bless :)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on May 12, 2013, 03:11:57 am
Quote
But how can anyone get saved if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the earth? "He who now letteth will let..." is commonly said to be the Holy Spirit working through the church. The Holy Spirit will be taken off the earth, and because the Holy Spirit lives inside a born again believer, we will be taken as well.

By "works".

We are judged by our "works" in that whether or not we walk in the Spirit. Our works is walking by faith, not by sight. But if in fact the Spirit is pulled as some speculate, those people still here will be walking by sight, and not faith, by the law, under a "works" system like it was for Israel under Judaism.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12 (KJB)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Christian40 on May 12, 2013, 04:52:34 am
Quote
But how can anyone get saved if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the earth? "He who now letteth will let..." is commonly said to be the Holy Spirit working through the church. The Holy Spirit will be taken off the earth, and because the Holy Spirit lives inside a born again believer, we will be taken as well.

 :(
By "works".

We are judged by our "works" in that whether or not we walk in the Spirit. Our works is walking by faith, not by sight. But if in fact the Spirit is pulled as some speculate, those people still here will be walking by sight, and not faith, by the law, under a "works" system like it was for Israel under Judaism.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12 (KJB)

That's what i think, that the seven years of the Big Trib will see God dealing with the nation of Israel once the Church has left the earth.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 12, 2013, 06:03:19 am
The Holy Spirit does not leave the Earth, the people saved After the Rapture will have to lose their heads and give a Testimony of their faith. These are the Tribulation Saints. You are still saved by faith and works during the 7 year period, as if you take the Mark, you are done no matter what you do, hence an act of works. When the Lord returns the only Christians on planet will be the remnant of Israel that is saved as the rest of the planet will be utterly uninhabitable. 

The Lord returns with ALL of his Saints that were raptured before the start of the Tribulation, the Trib Saints are resurrected AFTER the Tribulation. They are the ones whose souls are under the Temple during the Tribulation.

The fact that a trumpet is blown at the Rapture has no connection to the 7 trumpet judgments in Revelation. Paul wrote his epistle  around 30 years before John was given the vision of Revelation. You really cannot link the 2 together at it just doesn’t fit. Only 2 people were given that vision, Daniel who was told to lock it up, and John who was told to write it down. So clearly the Trumpet sound is something else. Since the whole rapture of the Church is compared to a wedding, and there were a lot of trumpet blasts during the whole ceremony. When the Husband came for his bride there were trumpets blown. It is a wedding, the Lord, Jesus comes for his Bride, the Church, than we go to a 7 year feast, instead of 7 days in the bridal chamber. He is making us mansions and all.. The trumpets has nothing to do with the 7 trumpet judgment.

The trumpet and the rapture is in no way linked to the Tribulation. Just read Jesus's own words on it.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

There will not be any fields to work, the Judgments will destroy all of them.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

there will not be any mills, all gone. These people are described as doing normal everyday stuff, no one will be doing that during the Tribulation.

42 ¶ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Really? Heck that’s easy to determine after the Trib starts, that is only possible with a PRE TRIB rapture.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on May 12, 2013, 02:55:04 pm
The Holy Spirit does not leave the Earth, the people saved After the Rapture will have to lose their heads and give a Testimony of their faith. These are the Tribulation Saints. You are still saved by faith and works during the 7 year period, as if you take the Mark, you are done no matter what you do, hence an act of works. When the Lord returns the only Christians on planet will be the remnant of Israel that is saved as the rest of the planet will be utterly uninhabitable. 

The Lord returns with ALL of his Saints that were raptured before the start of the Tribulation, the Trib Saints are resurrected AFTER the Tribulation. They are the ones whose souls are under the Temple during the Tribulation.

The fact that a trumpet is blown at the Rapture has no connection to the 7 trumpet judgments in Revelation. Paul wrote his epistle  around 30 years before John was given the vision of Revelation. You really cannot link the 2 together at it just doesn’t fit. Only 2 people were given that vision, Daniel who was told to lock it up, and John who was told to write it down. So clearly the Trumpet sound is something else. Since the whole rapture of the Church is compared to a wedding, and there were a lot of trumpet blasts during the whole ceremony. When the Husband came for his bride there were trumpets blown. It is a wedding, the Lord, Jesus comes for his Bride, the Church, than we go to a 7 year feast, instead of 7 days in the bridal chamber. He is making us mansions and all.. The trumpets has nothing to do with the 7 trumpet judgment.

The trumpet and the rapture is in no way linked to the Tribulation. Just read Jesus's own words on it.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

There will not be any fields to work, the Judgments will destroy all of them.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

there will not be any mills, all gone. These people are described as doing normal everyday stuff, no one will be doing that during the Tribulation.

42 ¶ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Really? Heck that’s easy to determine after the Trib starts, that is only possible with a PRE TRIB rapture.


We know not what hour our Lord comes? Kind of like how the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night? The coming of the Lord is the same as the day of the Lord, which is the same as the day of Christ. I have read and re-read those passages over and over recently, and the more I read them, the more I see no distinction between the day of the Lord and the coming of our Lord Jesus.

About the other passage: Half of the world would get raptured if that were a rapture verse. I personally don't believe that is the case. We know that people are gonna repopulate the earth during the Millennial Reign. I believe the "one left" is the ones that will still be here to repopulate the planet. The "one taken" is the ones that took the mark of the Beast and are put into the wine-press of the wrath of God.

Quote
(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(Luke 21:36) " Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
(Ephesians 6:13) "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

Why would we need to pray that we be taken up in the pre-trib rapture? Merely by being saved you would be. And what is this evil day? Could it be the day of the Lord?

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." (Isaiah 13:9)

"Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light." (Amos 5:20)

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)

"Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;" (Amos 6:3)

"The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly." (Zephaniah 1:14)

"Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come." (Joel 1:15)

Now granted, Revelation 6 is in reference to the Lamb, Jesus Christ. However:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5)

"As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus." (2 Corinthians 1:14)

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." (2 Thessalonians 2:2) (This lines up with Ephesians 6:13, where we need to take up the whole armor of God, basically to avoid deception)

We WILL be here for "the tribulation of those days", but we also WILL return with Christ at Armageddon. THERE IS ONLY ONE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST.

(2 Thessalonians 2:1) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

is the same coming as:

[2 Thessalonians 2:8] "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

How exactly everything plays out we don't know, and I don't think we will know until it does play out. Remember that "we see through a glass, darkly..." and that:

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." (1 Thessalonians 5:2)

Thank you all and God bless :)

What about these...

Quote
Who is the "elect" referred to in Matthew 24, Mark 13, etc?
It is the believers in Jesus Christ. Whether they be Jew or Gentile. There are 13 occurrences of the word "elect" in the New Testament. 1 is in reference to Jesus. 1 is in reference to angels. That makes 11 occurrences in the NT apart from the one about Christ and one about angels. 4 occur in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 (for example, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.") For the sake of argument, we'll leave those out for now. Who is being referred to in the other 7 occurrences?

Luke 18:7  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2 John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2 John 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

These are believers. Jew AND Gentile.

Or this?

I'm not saying you can't see pre-trib in certain verses (because even I can see it sometimes), but the problem is that a lot of people read into verses things that aren't there or take verses out of context (such as 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Just by reading the Bible for what it is (as I said before, the Bible says what it means and means what it says), I can come to no other conclusion than that the rapture will be post-trib. However, this shouldn't be a dividing issue. One side will be wrong when it's all said and done, but by that time I won't even care.

For the argument of pre vs. post-trib, I think Scott Johnson did a pretty good study on it. He missed out on some scripture he could have used, but all in all it's pretty good. I'd recommend it.

I don't usually like talking about the rapture anymore, because it riles up unnecessary anger. My church (non-501c3) really dislikes me now because I believe in post-trib and quoted some verse to explain why I believe that (whereas they are staunch pre-trib, even 'triple rapture' proponents). I just want people to see all Biblical sides of it. If it's pre-trib, great! Praise God! If it's post-trib, still praise God! I want people to be prepared and not lose faith even if it doesn't pan out the way one might have been taught their whole life. And that goes for everything: the rapture, Antichrist, false prophet, Babylon the Great, etc.

Remember: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

In any case, this is an exciting time in history, and I'll just be happy to be there. I'm really just so happy to be able to sing that great hymn "When the roll is called up yonder... I'll be there," and know that it's true.

God bless all you brethren in Christ Jesus!


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on May 13, 2013, 05:29:15 am
Quote
When the Lord returns the only Christians on planet will be the remnant of Israel that is saved as the rest of the planet will be utterly uninhabitable.

Huh? Please explain that. What about all those who will convert during that seven years? They would be called Christians too. What you say makes no sense.

I also question who "Israel" mentioned really is. That remnant is not who you think. It ain't Jews, sorry. You either accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, or you perish, period.

Jews WISH they would be saved without Jesus, but that ain't happening. I realize some churchianity preachers are tossing around this idea, but it's just a misinterpretation. The real Israel that is being talked about is believers, Christians. Here's why...

You claim like churchianity that "a remnant" will be saved, but that flys in the face of the verse that says "so all Israel shall be saved".

Wait, ALL Israel? I thought it was a remnant. Then somebody must be wrong about who, or rather, which Israel is being talked about. I say that Israel are Christians, not Jews. ALL believers will be saved. We are Jews inwardly, not outwardly like His people Israel, the Hebrews. They wash the outside of the cup, while the REAL Israel are clean on the inside and are saved because we accept Jesus as Messiah.

When Jesus returns, who do you think looks on Him in mourning and shock? Those who pierced Him, the Jews. They WILL mourn because at that time they realize they seriously messed up! It is then that the Jewish people realize that they killed their Saviour.

We are the ones that God fulfills His promises with, not the Jews. They had their chance under the Law. They failed.

All Israel WILL be saved. Like churchianity, you're thinking the wrong Israel.

Churchianity leaven is a disease that is tickling the ears of those who are too impatient to wait on God to tell them the truth.

I'm telling you right now, that leaven has crept in here among some who post on this site. The Lord rebuke that lying spirit.

Like FervorForFaith mentioned, it matters not seeing striving about the law is indeed unprofitable and vain, as we ARE saved. Thank you Jesus!

"How is it that ye do not understand that I spake [it] not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?" Matthew 16:11 (KJB)



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 13, 2013, 05:52:03 am
Huh? Please explain that. What about all those who will convert during that seven years? They would be called Christians too. What you say makes no sense.

I also question who "Israel" mentioned really is. That remnant is not who you think. It ain't Jews, sorry. You either accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, or you perish, period.

Jews WISH they would be saved without Jesus, but that ain't happening. I realize some churchianity preachers are tossing around this idea, but it's just a misinterpretation. The real Israel that is being talked about is believers, Christians. Here's why...

You claim like churchianity that "a remnant" will be saved, but that flys in the face of the verse that says "so all Israel shall be saved".

Wait, ALL Israel? I thought it was a remnant. Then somebody must be wrong about who, or rather, which Israel is being talked about. I say that Israel are Christians, not Jews. ALL believers will be saved. We are Jews inwardly, not outwardly like His people Israel, the Hebrews. They wash the outside of the cup, while the REAL Israel are clean on the inside and are saved because we accept Jesus as Messiah.

When Jesus returns, who do you think looks on Him in mourning and shock? Those who pierced Him, the Jews. They WILL mourn because at that time they realize they seriously messed up! It is then that the Jewish people realize that they killed their Saviour.

We are the ones that God fulfills His promises with, not the Jews. They had their chance under the Law. They failed.

All Israel WILL be saved. Like churchianity, you're thinking the wrong Israel.

Churchianity leaven is a disease that is tickling the ears of those who are too impatient to wait on God to tell them the truth.

I'm telling you right now, that leaven has crept in here among some who post on this site. The Lord rebuke that lying spirit.

Like FervorForFaith mentioned, it matters not seeing striving about the law is indeed unprofitable and vain, as we ARE saved. Thank you Jesus!

"How is it that ye do not understand that I spake [it] not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?" Matthew 16:11 (KJB)



Zec 13:8  And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


Maybe you should get off your high horse and learn a little. Your always claiming special revelation, and its so easy to disprove. Humble yourself a little and your eyes will be open because your blinded by pride.

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I'm telling you right now, that leaven has crept in here among some who post on this site. The Lord rebuke that lying spirit.

you got that right.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on May 13, 2013, 06:10:05 am
Quote
Your always claiming special revelation


I claim no such thing!

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." John 5:30 (KJB)

Pride? Indeed I have my moments, I'm not perfect, but at times my confidence in knowing the truth is falsely called pride by those that are questioned. Classic churchianity defensive accusations.

There is no need for such an attitude. Why are you lashing out? Talk about pride, and hypocrisy!

And quite frankly, seeing you want to go there, you haven't proved anything Mark, all you've done is post comments along with a couple verses that you think backs your claims. That from Zechariah is not what you claim. That talks about ALL people, not Jews, as evidenced by "all the land". The third part that He brings through the fire, those are they who call on Jesus.

"And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends." Zechariah 13:6 (KJB)

Point blank, do you believe a Jew can be saved without accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour?

5  Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6  For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies [are] the men of his own house.
7  Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.
Micah7:5-7 (KJB)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 13, 2013, 06:30:56 am
I claim no such thing!

Yes you do and quite a bit. You claim you learn EVERYTHING from the Holy Spirit. That is of PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. The Bible states to find teachers and listen to them, yet in your PRIDE you reject that and claim your own knowledge. Do you need me to get the quotes?

Pride? Indeed I have my moments, I'm not perfect, but at times my confidence in knowing the truth is falsely called pride by those that are questioned. Classic churchianity defensive accusations.

your wrong here, and your whole defense is churchianity, your using replacement theology which is in fact chuchianity created by the catholic church

There is no need for such an attitude. Why are you lashing out? Talk about pride, and hypocrisy!

And quite frankly, seeing you want to go there, you haven't proved anything Mark, all you've done is post comments along with a couple verses that you think backs your claims. That from Zechariah is not what you claim. That talks about ALL people, not Jews, as evidenced by "all the land". The third part that He brings through the fire, those are they who call on Jesus.

"And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends." Zechariah 13:6 (KJB)

Point blank, do you believe a Jew can be saved without accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour?

5  Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6  For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies [are] the men of his own house.
7  Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.
Micah7:5-7 (KJB)


See there you go again. The Land is Israel, and the third that will be saved will be Christian, They will call on the Lord, and that is the exact moment he will return.

Zec 13:1  In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem not the church

Mat 23:38  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39  For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


The Lord is talking to the Jewish people here, no one else. Not the church, not the world, but all of Israel.

Zec 13:9  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

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Point blank, do you believe a Jew can be saved without accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour?

nope and i think i just showed you that. Thats not "chuchianity" that is what the Bible says. You have claimed a couple of times you dont know to much about this stuff, well why not learn some of it instead of going against what you feel is wrong.

Am i little bitter? ya as i know just what you think of me.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on May 13, 2013, 05:22:46 pm
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I claim no such thing!

Yes you do and quite a bit. You claim you learn EVERYTHING from the Holy Spirit. That is of PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. The Bible states to find teachers and listen to them, yet in your PRIDE you reject that and claim your own knowledge. Do you need me to get the quotes?

I don't claim to get what I understand from the Holy Ghost, it's a FACT. From the Spirit is EXACTLY where ALL of us get our understanding of the true gospel. You rebuke me for claiming the truth of the Spirit? Mark, Mark, Mark, now pride has taken over your better judgement! Look again at what you just said to me. Then read this brother...Are you sure you really believe the following with all your heart?

11  And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and [unto] magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12  For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
Luke 12:11,12 (KJB)


"But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26 (KJB)

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." 1 John 2:27 (KJB)

THAT is where I get my understanding. No MAN teaches me anything. It is God Almighty by His Spirit that teaches me, and everyone else that believes. It is the Spirit in others around me that gives me understanding. It is not the work of  self-professing teachers, it's the Spirit in a teacher, a preacher, a brother, or sister. It is the Spirit working in us sharing with others "that which ye have".

We pray to God, not men, so why go looking for what other men say the gospel is? All you have to do is have faith in the Spirit that Jesus said He would give you the Spirit to teach and protect you. It is not men that teach, or preach, or heal, it is "Jesus Christ in you".

And yes, by all means quote what scripture says. "Feed my sheep".

You, like me and everyone else in the body, are exhorted to "prove what is acceptable...". Are we all on the same page at the same time? No. Each of us are at different stages of growth in our faith and understanding, growing from a babe to a man when we "put away childish things". What you may have, I may not, and vice versa. That is why scripture, not my words, says that...

"And when they did mete [it] with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating." Exodus 16:18 (KJB)

14  But by an equality, [that] now at this time your abundance [may be a supply] for their want, that their abundance also may be [a supply] for your want: that there may be equality:
15   As it is written, He that [had gathered] much had nothing over; and he that [had gathered] little had no lack. 2 Corinthians 8:15 (KJB)



Pride? Indeed I have my moments, I'm not perfect, but at times my confidence in knowing the truth is falsely called pride by those that are questioned. Classic churchianity defensive accusations.

your wrong here, and your whole defense is churchianity, your using replacement theology which is in fact chuchianity created by the catholic church

On the contrary. My defense is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

It's right there in plain sight to read it for yourself. Either what is preached is one of two things; the truth, or a lie. The word "churchianity" is used as a general term to relate to so-called "organized Christianity", the so-called "church goers" crowd that are promoting, and BA has thoroughly documented in his research, "replacement theology, contemplative prayer", etc.

Who did Jesus rail on the most? Who were the ones He rebuked the most? The religious leaders of the day, "scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!" which at the time were Jews. But just like with circumcision ("...is that of the heart..."), it's now spiritual ("comparing spiritual with spiritual", and those verses now apply to all religious leaders, the modern day Pharisee of the various "denominations" in Churchianity, not just the Jews, and it applies to everybody that rejects the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Look, I have many times admitted, acknowledge, and exhorted people that they are NOT to listen to my words, but seek out the Word of God, to listen to the scriptures that come out in what I say. Only His Word will profit a man ("shall not return unto me void..."), that is why it says we must offer interpretation with our own words...

"He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." 1 Corinthians 14:4 (KJB)

14  For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15  What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16  Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
1 Corinthians 14:14-16 (KJB)


"He that hath an ear..."


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Am i little bitter? ya as i know just what you think of me.

Have you ever actually asked me what I think of you? You and I both know you haven't. So how is it that you know? And why do you even care what I, or any man, thinks of you? The unbelieving world think some really nasty things of you, and me and all of us who believe, as a son of God, and your worried about me?

I'll tell you what I think Mark. I have seen evidence that you have been influenced by false teachers of churchianity. That's it.

And I would exhort you to post more of your understandings in your own words with the appropriate scripture, and less copy/paste articles and videos about doctrine. We learn from each other by His Spirit when we communicate with each other like now. You cannot communicate with a book or video. There needs to be direct communication like we are doing in this forum. That is my understanding of, "to do good and communicate...".

It's an error in part in doctrine, but no reflection on your salvation. None of us consciously have all the answers, though all the answers already reside in us by the Holy Ghost. We just don't have access to it all at once as we simply cannot bear it now being yet carnal in this temporal flesh. The Holy Ghost gives us "in that hour" what we need, not what we think we need to teach some group of people on Sundays!

Assumptions born of agitation that we don't agree on this is where your at. And that is to be expected, as none of us are on the exact same page beyond "the first principles of the oracles of God". That is why it is so important to know what is "sound doctrine". Look at the contentions among the apostles when they were with Jesus. Jesus even rebuked them more than once. Why? First, because He loved them, as us, and secondly He is sent to do the will of the Father.

Eventually we will agree totally on all things, but not yet, though we have "the mind of Christ". We must be patient. "But let patience have her perfect work".

13  Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14  But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15  This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
16  For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.
17  But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
 James 3:13-18 (KJB)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on May 13, 2013, 05:32:32 pm
I desire to reply to your post BA, but first let's resolve the issue at hand before we get back into who Israel really is.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on May 13, 2013, 08:53:12 pm
Another thing that I think seals the deal of a post-trib rapture is what Jesus says in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21:

Matthew 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not,  (let him that readeth understand,)  then let them that be in Judæa flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:21  Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Keep in mind that Jesus is talking to His apostles here on how we will know the end is near. Jesus specifically mentions those in Judaea (the Jews, or Israel) as if they are only one part of a larger group. If the one-third of Israel were the only saved people on earth between the beginning of the tribulation and the end, Jesus wouldn't have been so specific with His words, and He wouldn't have singled them out of the larger group He was talking to/about (because they would BE the larger group).

I also think that most pre-trib adherents take 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9 completely out of context. Those verses read:

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

These verses, they say, prove that we must be taken before the tribulation starts because the seal, vial and trumpet judgments are God's wrath. As born again, Bible believing Christians, we are NOT appointed to wrath. But wrath, in these verses, is not the same wrath in those verses. Read these verses:

Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

This again mentions "the wrath to come", just like in 1 Thessalonians 1:10.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Notice here the wording that is used: "thy wrath is come". That "wrath to come" now "is come". And the explanation of what that wrath is paints pretty clearly that it is judgment and damnation.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Is John referring to the tribulation here? Well, let's ask ourselves this: In 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and John 3:36, what is the opposite of salvation/everlasting life? Is it great tribulation? Or is it damnation/everlasting torment? I think it's obvious now what wrath we aren't appointed to. Remember also:

Matthew 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

That doesn't mean that God will not shield us and make a way to escape. Remember, Jesus told us to pray that we are accounted worthy to ESCAPE these things and to stand before the Son of man.

Add that in with my other reasonings that I've posted (which, surprisingly, nobody has tried to disprove yet), and I think it pretty decisively points to a post-tribulation rapture/resurrection and subsequent being with Christ as His army at Armageddon. Now like I said, I'm not the purveyor of all knowledge. I don't know EXACTLY how it all plays out. But just by reading it for what it says, that's what I keep getting. Again though, I think in the end it'll happen the way it'll happen, regardless. I just want my brethren to be prepared.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on May 15, 2013, 07:23:24 pm
From now on, I'm gonna preface each post in this thread with this:

THIS IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE, AND I DON'T DESIRE FOR IT TO BE A DIVISIVE ONE, EITHER.

Read these verses:

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

The Beast, or Antichrist, when he takes power, will make war with the saints and overcome them. We, as born again Bible believers, are the saints. How can the Antichrist make war with us and overcome us if we aren't here when he is in power? These verses, among others, clearly show that we are here during the tribulation. The Church is here, along with Israel.

Let's read on in Revelation 14:14-19:
 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

There's that word "wrath" again. And again, it's in connection to damnation, as it says earlier in the chapter in verses 10 and 11.

Now let's compare that to Matthew 13:24-30:
 24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,  The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
 25  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
 26  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
 27  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
 28  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
 29  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
 30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

He tells his servants to wait until the harvest to gather up the wheat and tares. ALL OF THEM. AT THE SAME TIME.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 15, 2013, 08:05:20 pm
The Tribulation Saints are not the Church. The Trib Saints are saved AFTER the rapture of the Church. The Trib Saints will die for their testimony and have their heads cut off, or accept the MARK. The Bible is very clear on this. They are the souls that are kept under the alter until after the Trib.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 15, 2013, 09:04:42 pm
The Tribulation Saints are not the Church. The Trib Saints are saved AFTER the rapture of the Church. The Trib Saints will die for their testimony and have their heads cut off, or accept the MARK. The Bible is very clear on this. They are the souls that are kept under the alter until after the Trib.


Oh OK, now it's starting to make sense...

Jude 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


So the raptured (church age)saints are with the Lord in heaven.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


And not under the alter(5th seal).

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


Now I see where both the church age saints and the trib saints are distinguished differently. Thank you! :)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on May 15, 2013, 10:06:48 pm
The Tribulation Saints are not the Church. The Trib Saints are saved AFTER the rapture of the Church. The Trib Saints will die for their testimony and have their heads cut off, or accept the MARK. The Bible is very clear on this. They are the souls that are kept under the alter until after the Trib.

I mean no disrespect, Mark, but if it's so clear, then give me verse for it. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it in there, brother. You say "Oh, it's so clear!" "Oh, the Bible CLEARLY states this!" Yet you never give verse for it. Again, I mean absolutely no disrespect, but that's what I'm seeing.

And you still haven't refuted the verses I've quoted previously, nor Matthew 13.

And again, I ask the question: How can the "tribulation saints" get saved without the Holy Spirit? I'm sorry, but Jesus died on the cross for everyone of EVERY time period. Not just the "age of grace" but for ALL. He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. It was always God's plan to have it that way. The Holy Spirit HAS to be present for a person to be saved. No matter when they get saved. You aren't saved without Him. No one is EVER saved by "works". Not back in Old Testament days, not now, and not ever. The prophets and the Jews back then weren't saved by keeping the sabbath, keeping the passover, doing this, doing that, etc. Paul points this out in I believe Romans as well as Hebrews. By the works of the law no man is justified. They were saved by their faith that God's commandments and words were truth, so they followed them.

Even not taking the mark. That is not what saves you. It is the faith to believe God's Word that saves you, not the "work" of refusing the mark. You do the "work" because of your FAITH. It's works following, not works preceding.

And to answer your question from the other thread:

You don't think God is entirely capable of doing the rapture, the resurrection, the Second Coming and the arrival of the army of heaven all within a very short time? I'm not confused, I just think pre-trib proponents tend to put God in a box. God created the universe, He can have the rapture take place moments before the battle of Armageddon. It is entirely within His abilities.

Again, nobody is unsaved by believing one way or the other. It may just be one of those things where I believe one way and you believe another. We're both saved, and one will be wrong. I want everyone to be prepared, either way.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Christian40 on May 16, 2013, 03:34:56 am
Quote from: FervorForFaith
And again, I ask the question: How can the "tribulation saints" get saved without the Holy Spirit?

Revelation 7:
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

By having the seal of the living God.



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 16, 2013, 04:20:38 am


And again, I ask the question: How can the "tribulation saints" get saved without the Holy Spirit?

Where did i ever say this? I never said that. The Holy Spirit never leaves, if He did than no one would get saved.

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Even not taking the mark. That is not what saves you. It is the faith to believe God's Word that saves you, not the "work" of refusing the mark. You do the "work" because of your FAITH. It's works following, not works preceding.

Not taking the mark will not save you either. You still have to accept Jesus. But if you do take the Mark than your done. period. So it is a work during the Tribulation. You have to accept Jesus and NOT take the Mark. It is not the same as now.

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You don't think God is entirely capable of doing the rapture, the resurrection, the Second Coming and the arrival of the army of heaven all within a very short time? I'm not confused, I just think pre-trib proponents tend to put God in a box. God created the universe, He can have the rapture take place moments before the battle of Armageddon. It is entirely within His abilities.

The Lord can do anything, i havent put him in any box. Its just what he said he was going to do. We are raptured around the start of theTrib, then we are on horses with the Lord in Heaven before he descends to Earth. You have to make that work, not me, because that is what the scripture states. Your the one with the problem of being in 2 places at once. Not me and the Bible.

For pre trib it all works out, no confusion. For everything else, it does not work and is nothing but confusion.

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I mean no disrespect, Mark, but if it's so clear, then give me verse for it.

verse for what exactly? The Trib Saints? you posted them your self.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 16, 2013, 04:27:26 am
Oh OK, now it's starting to make sense...

Jude 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


So the raptured (church age)saints are with the Lord in heaven.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


And not under the alter(5th seal).

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


Now I see where both the church age saints and the trib saints are distinguished differently. Thank you! :)

Yes there is a difference.

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

 Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.


We come back with the Lord, all the Grace Age Saints. The Trib Saints are raised AFTER the Tribulation. You cant be raised after if your coming back with Jesus. We will be in Heaven, on horses with the Lord, and we get to come back with him and watch him execute judgment on the Earth.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on May 16, 2013, 05:13:03 am
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The Holy Spirit HAS to be present for a person to be saved. No matter when they get saved. You aren't saved without Him. No one is EVER saved by "works". Not back in Old Testament days, not now, and not ever.

And that is your problem with understanding the situation. No, I disagree, the Spirit was not available to men as it is since Jesus ascended. Things were by works then, as the Spirit was not available to men as it is now. Yes, they had faith, but the faith they had was in "keeping the commandments", which was done by their Judaic worship, which is a work of the law.

I understand your misunderstanding, as the situation does involve faith of the person under the works of the law. They have faith in the law itself, not the Spirit to save them because they weren't given the Spirit to save them. They were under the law, not grace.

As Abraham "believed God" and it was counted to him for righteousness, it was indeed faith by Abraham, but he still acted on faith in his works of believing God, as salvation by grace via the Spirit did not come till AFTER Jesus ascended.

39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:39,40 (KJB)


And why did they not "receive the promise"? They did not have the Holy Ghost in them. They lived under the works of the law by faith in the commandments of God.

It's a subtle difference, but it is different. Till Jesus ascended, we did not have the Holy Ghost. While the Spirit was around from the beginning, it was not given to men yet as part of salvation.

16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17  [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:16,17 (KJB)




Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on May 16, 2013, 05:33:13 am
The Lord can do anything, i havent put him in any box. Its just what he said he was going to do. We are raptured around the start of theTrib, then we are on horses with the Lord in Heaven before he descends to Earth. You have to make that work, not me, because that is what the scripture states. Your the one with the problem of being in 2 places at once. Not me and the Bible.

Scripture does NOT state this. I'm sorry, friend, but it doesn't. I understand wanting to believe a pre-trib, it's a lot nicer thing to believe than a post-trib, but it just isn't there. I can see how you can come to a pre-trib conclusion in a couple verses (if you squint real hard, you can see it :D), but the overwhelming majority point to a post-trib.

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verse for what exactly? The Trib Saints? you posted them your self.

It doesn't state that in the verse I quoted. I want you to post verses that prove that it is talking SPECIFICALLY about "trib saints" and not just saints in general.

And again, you STILL haven't refuted the multiple verses I quoted earlier...

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39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:39,40 (KJB)

The promise isn't the Holy Spirit.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Among others...


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 16, 2013, 05:44:08 am
Scripture does NOT state this. I'm sorry, friend, but it doesn't. I understand wanting to believe a pre-trib, it's a lot nicer thing to believe than a post-trib, but it just isn't there. I can see how you can come to a pre-trib conclusion in a couple verses (if you squint real hard, you can see it :D), but the overwhelming majority point to a post-trib.


Yes it does, that’s why there isn’t any confusion in what the Bible says about the Rapture. Because it is pre trib, if its post trib there is all kinds of problems that you cannot fix. Like being in heaven on horses and getting raised on earth. It doesn’t work, thus confusion, and the Lord isn’t the god of confusion. Your idea does not work. sorry.

Luke 23:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Worthy to ESCAPE and to STAND BEFORE the Son of Man. That does not fit with post trib.  :D too much confusion. That verse works perfectly as pre trib, as that is what it is. Hey make the parable of the 10 virgins fit post trib. can’t do it. Make the wedding feats fit post trib, can’t do it. too much confusion.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 16, 2013, 06:34:07 am

It doesn't state that in the verse I quoted. I want you to post verses that prove that it is talking SPECIFICALLY about "trib saints" and not just saints in general.


Yes they did, as these are those whom go through the Tribulation. Hence the Tribulation Saints. They will have to loose ther heads and give a testimony, we do not have to do that today. During the Trib they will. The Antichrist will be over them, not so today. Again so much confusion with post trib, there will be millions that come to Christ in the minutes after the Rapture. Now they have to endure. Not so for those of us today.

“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto everyone of them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled” – (Rev.6:9-11).

“9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death” – (Rev.12:11).

And here is a very good verse on the distinction of the Saint and Trib Saint

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You have 2 groups of people here. Those on the thrones who Judge and those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, we did not and will not do that. We are those who are on the thrones 1 Cor 6-2. These are 2 seperate groups of people. The Saints from the Rapture and the Trib Saints. again. no confusion, fits perfectly.

Who are these 2 groups in your post trib world?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 16, 2013, 07:55:17 am
FFF - when you get a chance, definitely look up quotes from New Age Movement minion leaders like Benjamin Crème, Barbara Max Hubbard, Bill Lambert, David Icke, etc - even they have said they expect "disappearances" when their New Age "Christ" makes his appearance. There's also a DVD uploaded on youtube titled "New Order Barbarians" where a doctor had a closed door meeting in the 1960's with a Planned Parenthood director, who spilled every little detail of the NWO agenda. At the very end of the interview, he said when this "new system" gets unveiled, the "resisters" are going to be "disappeared". And come to think of it too, Lambert said the Illuminati minions already have an "explanation" prepared for all of these "disappearances".

And to boot - the Catholic Church's doctrine believes in a post-trib rapture. In their Catechisms, they said the church would go through great tribulation(I'll post the link later).

Anyhow - thought I found this interesting, as this is not only what THEY'RE saying, but it's NOT like the audience they're speaking to is Christians(but to their New Age Movement et al followers).


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on May 16, 2013, 07:03:44 pm
FFF - when you get a chance, definitely look up quotes from New Age Movement minion leaders like Benjamin Crème, Barbara Max Hubbard, Bill Lambert, David Icke, etc - even they have said they expect "disappearances" when their New Age "Christ" makes his appearance. There's also a DVD uploaded on youtube titled "New Order Barbarians" where a doctor had a closed door meeting in the 1960's with a Planned Parenthood director, who spilled every little detail of the NWO agenda. At the very end of the interview, he said when this "new system" gets unveiled, the "resisters" are going to be "disappeared". And come to think of it too, Lambert said the Illuminati minions already have an "explanation" prepared for all of these "disappearances".

And to boot - the Catholic Church's doctrine believes in a post-trib rapture. In their Catechisms, they said the church would go through great tribulation(I'll post the link later).

Anyhow - thought I found this interesting, as this is not only what THEY'RE saying, but it's NOT like the audience they're speaking to is Christians(but to their New Age Movement et al followers).

The Catholic Church doesn't teach post-trib rapture. They don't even really believe in a rapture. In the 15 years that I was a Catholic, I never heard once about any kind of rapture, or the tribulation for that matter. I vividly remember watching EWTN and the priest/monk guy emphatically stating to a caller that there was no such thing as a rapture. So how can they believe in a post-trib rapture if they don't even believe in a rapture at all? And in the year or so that I was a New Ager, I never heard about any of that, either. Not saying they don't teach it, but I never heard it, and I used to pray to Sanat Kumara and contemplate the image of Maitreya's hand (which is why I'm so intent on exposing New Age for the Luciferic one-world cult that it is and Maitreya as, imo, the most likely candidate for Antichrist. But that's a topic for a different time).

And in regards to the thrones in Revelation 20:4...

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The key to this verse, I think, is that the group on the thrones is called "they", but nothing else. It isn't until one sentence later that John explains who this group is. John saw thrones, and an unnamed group sat and judged. Then John saw their souls, who were beheaded/killed because of their faith. And this group of people lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I'll admit, I may be wrong here, but it doesn't seem right to just not identify the group on the thrones in the entire chapter. I can't think of a single time in the Bible when something prophetic isn't identified in some way in the chapter its in. Babylon is that great city. The beast has the number of his name, and the 7 heads and ten horns. The false prophet has two horns like a lamb but speaks as a dragon. Etc etc etc. Here, it literally just says "they" sat on the thrones and judgement was given to them.

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Luke 23:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Why would we need to pray that we are worthy to go up in the pre-trib rapture? We would simply because we are saved. And why would we need to be able to withstand in the evil day if we won't even BE HERE in the evil day? The evil day being the day of the Lord. It doesn't make sense.

If I'm indeed wrong, I want to be proven wrong. Not just told that I'm wrong. "... lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:6)

And yet again, you STILL haven't addressed any of the verses I quoted previously. Explain Matthew 13 and its relation to Revelation 14. Or 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 2:8 being in reference to the same exact event: Jesus Christ's "coming". While we're at it, why not explain Revelation 14:1 and its relation to Zechariah 14:4-5.

I really hate talking about this topic, because all it does is divide saved people. And unfortunately, it's almost always the pre-trib proponents that get unnecessarily offended when someone brings up post-trib as a possibility. It happens ALL THE TIME at my church (which is non-501c3 fundamental Baptist). My pastors (we've got like 10 of them :D) are almost ready to kick me out because I bring up these verses to them. What time the rapture happens is not a salvation issue, it never was and never will be.



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on May 17, 2013, 04:14:55 am
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In the 15 years that I was a Catholic

Please elaborate, as in when did you reject the RCC and become born-again and why, what church group did you go to after the RCC, and how old are you now?

I found these comments, and I thought maybe we need some more details, as it might explain some of your confusion.

http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,8216.msg31259.html#msg31259 (http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,8216.msg31259.html#msg31259)

It does matter, because how you were raised, starting with your parents having you christened as a baby, shows me you were in a typical Catholic household. That influence doesn't just go away.

You have a ton of baggage to get rid of in your thinking. Becoming born-again does free you of it all, but, you MUST search for Jesus with ALL your heart.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 17, 2013, 05:43:32 am
The Catholic Church doesn't teach post-trib rapture. They don't even really believe in a rapture. In the 15 years that I was a Catholic, I never heard once about any kind of rapture, or the tribulation for that matter. I vividly remember watching EWTN and the priest/monk guy emphatically stating to a caller that there was no such thing as a rapture. So how can they believe in a post-trib rapture if they don't even believe in a rapture at all? And in the year or so that I was a New Ager, I never heard about any of that, either. Not saying they don't teach it, but I never heard it, and I used to pray to Sanat Kumara and contemplate the image of Maitreya's hand (which is why I'm so intent on exposing New Age for the Luciferic one-world cult that it is and Maitreya as, imo, the most likely candidate for Antichrist. But that's a topic for a different time).

There is a reason they do not teach it. Just like there is a reason they pray to a false gods and worship statues and men.

Catholics teach Post-Tribulation Rapture
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,1094.0.html

sorry but you cant learn about the whole new-age in a year. It takes years of study and reading to get it down. Kind of like studying the Bible, it takes years. If you want to know more about the new-age explanation of the rapture read here.

The New Earth, book 2 Chapter 4,5,6 and 7 if i remember right... pray before reading as these are channeled messages.
Book II: THE EARTH CHANGES,
    Chapter 4: Cleansing Planet Earth
    Chapter 5: The Higher Plan
    Chapter 6: Time for Choice
    Chapter 7: The Flying Saucers
http://www.thenewearth.org/

Scary stuff there.

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And in regards to the thrones in Revelation 20:4...

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The key to this verse, I think, is that the group on the thrones is called "they", but nothing else. It isn't until one sentence later that John explains who this group is. John saw thrones, and an unnamed group sat and judged. Then John saw their souls, who were beheaded/killed because of their faith. And this group of people lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The key to the verses is the comas and colon and; and. He sees thrones and the people on them are sitting in judgment. AND, meaning in addition too, he sees all these Tribulation Saints. So he sees 2 separate groups of people. The AND makes this distinction very well.

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I'll admit, I may be wrong here, but it doesn't seem right to just not identify the group on the thrones in the entire chapter. I can't think of a single time in the Bible when something prophetic isn't identified in some way in the chapter its in. Babylon is that great city. The beast has the number of his name, and the 7 heads and ten horns. The false prophet has two horns like a lamb but speaks as a dragon. Etc etc etc. Here, it literally just says "they" sat on the thrones and judgement was given to them.

That is a good question, just who are these people? See if you have the Pre Trib view it all fits, as we are to sit in Judgment. If you have a post trib view there is confusion and stuff just doesn't fit and it has to be worked around. I would think that, that alone would make you question.

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Luke 23:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Why would we need to pray that we are worthy to go up in the pre-trib rapture? We would simply because we are saved. And why would we need to be able to withstand in the evil day if we won't even BE HERE in the evil day? The evil day being the day of the Lord. It doesn't make sense.

well for starters your mixing a lot of stuff up together that doesn't go together. Mike Hoggard does that, a lot. Jesus in Luke 23 is telling you to pray to escape, you have to pray to be saved, once saved you will escape and stand before the Son of Man.

Rev 6:17 is a general question, The Great Day of Wrath has finally come, who can stand before it? That is a question for the whole world, not the individual Christian. This time that has now began the Lord has been talking about for thousands of years, here it is, who can stand against God in his wrath? He is going to level the planet, kill all the trees and grass, turn all the water into blood, break up all the lands move every island. Ya WHO can stand against that?

The Evil day in Eph is about the normal every day stuff we face. We are to put on the whole armor of God EVERYDAY. And the evil day is not the Day of the Lord. Where did you come by that? Gods Wrath is a JUDGMENT it isnt evil. It is Holy Holy Holy. You really need to think on that one.

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If I'm indeed wrong, I want to be proven wrong. Not just told that I'm wrong. "... lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:6)

you will at the Rapture. but no worries that is why 1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

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And yet again, you STILL haven't addressed any of the verses I quoted previously. Explain Matthew 13 and its relation to Revelation 14. Or 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 2:8 being in reference to the same exact event: Jesus Christ's "coming". While we're at it, why not explain Revelation 14:1 and its relation to Zechariah 14:4-5.

my times limited at times, list them individually and i will strive to answer them, doing big bunches of stuff like this gets to confusing. It is way easier to do 1 or 2 things at a time.

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I really hate talking about this topic, because all it does is divide saved people. And unfortunately, it's almost always the pre-trib proponents that get unnecessarily offended when someone brings up post-trib

only 1 can be right, not 2 or 3. And if its something that the Catholic church teaches against, well its almost 100% true then.  :D

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as a possibility. It happens ALL THE TIME at my church (which is non-501c3 fundamental Baptist). My pastors (we've got like 10 of them ) are almost ready to kick me out because I bring up these verses to them. What time the rapture happens is not a salvation issue, it never was and never will be.

How can a body function with 10 heads?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 17, 2013, 08:52:48 am
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as a possibility. It happens ALL THE TIME at my church (which is non-501c3 fundamental Baptist). My pastors (we've got like 10 of them ) are almost ready to kick me out because I bring up these verses to them. What time the rapture happens is not a salvation issue, it never was and never will be.

Just curious - does your church have a bank account in its name? Do they have by laws? Do they have business meetings? Are donations to them tax deductible? If so, these are only a couple of examples, then they are 501c3s. The church I go to(just tag along with my parents), I thought it wasn't a 501c3 b/c it wasn't listed on the IRS web site, but the IRS doesn't list every single organization that's tax-exempt - but then I found out the other stuff(bank account in its name, by laws, etc).

And I'm sure you're familiar with Pastor Sam Adams(who's a good friend of Scott) - his church isn't a 501c3, and when I sent in a tiny donation a couple of years ago, I didn't have to make out the check to the name of his church.

For the most part, from my own experiences, pastors seem to be very sensitive when you approach them with this question. I emailed a couple of them in my area a couple of years ago(when looking for a KJV-only church), and they didn't respond. On another occasion when I called, the response was "Yep! We sure are!"(and he seemed anxious to get off of the phone). I'm not saying your church leadership is dishonest or anything, but again, it seems to be a sensitive issue with pastors for the most part when approached with this question, and would be best doing the research on your own.

501c3 thread
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,530.0.html

Ohio Secretary of State's web site - link to looking up 501c3s
http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/pls/bsqry/f?p=100:1


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on May 17, 2013, 12:55:37 pm
Quote
I'll admit, I may be wrong here, but it doesn't seem right to just not identify the group on the thrones in the entire chapter.

Those on the thrones are identified...(I believe Revelation 20:4 is explained here)

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28 (KJB)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 17, 2013, 02:00:48 pm
Those on the thrones are identified...(I believe Revelation 20:4 is explained here)

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28 (KJB)

bold and underline emphasis mine

Now this is making more and more sense - excellent find to the Matthew 19:28 verse linking to the Revelation 20:4 verse! :)

Thank you everyone for helping to divide the word of truth with this discussion!


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 17, 2013, 04:14:19 pm
Those on the thrones are identified...(I believe Revelation 20:4 is explained here)

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28 (KJB)

I believe that verse is strictly for the 12 Apostles as it goes with the 12 gates of New Jerusalem. Just who is that 12th name?  ;)

A much better verse to back up Rev 24:4 is

1Co 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

backed by,

Dan 7:22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

see, it all fits if you follow the pre trib rapture. NO confusion.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 17, 2013, 04:17:51 pm
I believe that verse is strictly for the 12 Apostles as it goes with the 12 gates of New Jerusalem. Just who is that 12th name?  ;)

A much better verse to back up Rev 24:4 is

1Co 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

backed by,

Dan 7:22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

see, it all fits if you follow the pre trib rapture. NO confusion.

The 12th one is Paul, right?

Again, this is making much, much more sense now.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 17, 2013, 04:40:19 pm
FYI, about that Margaret MacDonald "vision" about a pre-trib rapture(b/c supposedly she was dabbling into the occult)...

1) Her vision was actually that of a POST-TRIB rapture, b/c apparently she held to the Historicism view(which itself is false).
http://apostasynow.com/topics/trib/pretrib08.html

2) Another thing, she NEVER met John Nelson Darby(supposedly it was Darby that got this "revelation" from her) - otherwise, Darby would have mentioned her name in his 1500 pages of writings.

http://apostasynow.com/topics/trib/pretrib08.html

Edit - with #2 - not sure which is the correct report, but it was either Darby never meeting MacDonald, or Darby crossing paths with her but REJECTING her "vision". The link says the latter, but I read another source that says they never met. Either way, Darby didn't want anything to do with MM.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on May 17, 2013, 08:48:05 pm
There is a reason they do not teach it. Just like there is a reason they pray to a false gods and worship statues and men.

Catholics teach Post-Tribulation Rapture
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,1094.0.html

If they do believe it, then they don't teach it. They hide it in a closet somewhere, because I had NEVER heard of a rapture until I got saved.

You yourself admitted that they BANNED the rapture (any rapture) in 400 AD.

http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,4777.0.html (http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,4777.0.html)

They are amillennial, wheareas we are premillennial.

Also: Even if they did teach post-tribulation rapture, them teaching it doesn't necessarily make it wrong scripturally.

Catholics believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. Since they teach it, it must be wrong!

Catholics believe that Jesus walked on water and turned water into wine. Since they teach it, it must be wrong!

Catholics believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. Since they teach it, it must be wrong!

Now yes, Catholicism is wicked and evil and nobody will ever be saved by that abomination of a religion (or any religion for that matter, Jesus saves us). But there is almost ALWAYS truth mixed in with lies. Another example is the Jehovah's Witnesses. They have everything wrong except the holidays being pagan and Jesus didn't have long hair.

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sorry but you cant learn about the whole new-age in a year. It takes years of study and reading to get it down. Kind of like studying the Bible, it takes years. If you want to know more about the new-age explanation of the rapture read here.

The New Earth, book 2 Chapter 4,5,6 and 7 if i remember right... pray before reading as these are channeled messages.
Book II: THE EARTH CHANGES,
    Chapter 4: Cleansing Planet Earth
    Chapter 5: The Higher Plan
    Chapter 6: Time for Choice
    Chapter 7: The Flying Saucers
http://www.thenewearth.org/

Scary stuff there.

Never said I did, Mark. If you read my post, I said "Not saying they don't teach it, but I never heard it..."

I realize I wasn't in it for that long, and I never said they didn't teach it. But in the time that I was, I never heard a peep about it.

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The key to the verses is the comas and colon and; and. He sees thrones and the people on them are sitting in judgment. AND, meaning in addition too, he sees all these Tribulation Saints. So he sees 2 separate groups of people. The AND makes this distinction very well.

That is a good question, just who are these people? See if you have the Pre Trib view it all fits, as we are to sit in Judgment. If you have a post trib view there is confusion and stuff just doesn't fit and it has to be worked around. I would think that, that alone would make you question.

You quoted this verse to back up your point.

Dan 7:22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

However, this would contradict Revelation 20:4. In Revelation 20, only those on the thrones judged. "The souls of them" did not judge. If those on the thrones and "the souls of them" are two different groups, then not all the saints were given judgment. The "tribulation saints" as you put it are just as much saints as we are, no? So naturally, they should have a throne and judge, too. But if we go by your interpretation of this passage, then they don't get to judge, and this passage would be false.

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well for starters your mixing a lot of stuff up together that doesn't go together. Mike Hoggard does that, a lot. Jesus in Luke 23 is telling you to pray to escape, you have to pray to be saved, once saved you will escape and stand before the Son of Man.

Rev 6:17 is a general question, The Great Day of Wrath has finally come, who can stand before it? That is a question for the whole world, not the individual Christian. This time that has now began the Lord has been talking about for thousands of years, here it is, who can stand against God in his wrath? He is going to level the planet, kill all the trees and grass, turn all the water into blood, break up all the lands move every island. Ya WHO can stand against that?

Or it could just as easily mean escape the wars/plagues/executions/etc that will kill a lot of people and survive to see the beginning of the second coming of our Lord.

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The Evil day in Eph is about the normal every day stuff we face. We are to put on the whole armor of God EVERYDAY. And the evil day is not the Day of the Lord. Where did you come by that? Gods Wrath is a JUDGMENT it isnt evil. It is Holy Holy Holy. You really need to think on that one.

I made mention to this before:

"Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light." (Amos 5:20)

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)

"Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;" (Amos 6:3)

"The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly." (Zephaniah 1:14)

It says it throughout scripture. The day of the Lord = the day of evil, or the evil day. Other names for it include day of destruction, day of Christ, second coming of Christ, etc.

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you will at the Rapture. but no worries that is why 1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Just saying. I very well might be wrong, but don't boast. But anyway, you just continually saying "You're confused" or "You're wrong" doesn't help me or you. It'd be like screaming "You're wrong!" to a Jehovah's Witness and not explaining how or why they are wrong. They won't listen to you.

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only 1 can be right, not 2 or 3. And if its something that the Catholic church teaches against, well its almost 100% true then.  :D

To be fair, the Catholic church teaches (usually) against abortion and sodomy. Does that mean those are almost 100% ok then?

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How can a body function with 10 heads?

That's a great question.

And btw, BornAgain2, I'm not historicist (to my knowledge), and I don't think any of you are, either. I just place the rapture at a different time than you guys.

John Darby was a British East India Company guy, and the BEIC has historically been a tool of the Illuminati. So even if you are pre-trib, I wouldn't go to him for your doctrine.

I'm pretty much done talking about this topic (I'm not huge on debating it nowadays), because we're pretty much getting nowhere with it. If you want to check out the scriptures I posted earlier, feel free.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on May 18, 2013, 01:46:50 am
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Just who is that 12th name?

Ah, THAT debate!  ;)

Is it Paul?, or is it...

"And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Acts 1:26 (KJB)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on May 18, 2013, 01:49:09 am
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I'm pretty much done talking about this topic (I'm not huge on debating it nowadays), because we're pretty much getting nowhere with it. If you want to check out the scriptures I posted earlier, feel free.

And that is why I usually preface any discussion on this topic that I believe it's more than a point of contention that anything. Better to not debate it, as you said, it's not salvation-dependent to know which is correct. Better to look for things which make for peace.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 13, 2013, 10:22:13 am
I've been seeing more of these "stories" lately in the MSM. It just got me thinking how maybe they're using these propaganda stories to explain away the rapture of the dead in Christ to those left behind when the AC is revealed(ie-to "explain" those "opened" graves).

http://news.yahoo.com/vampire-graves-uncovered-poland-181147837.html
'Vampire' Graves Uncovered in Poland
7/12/13

Archaeologists in Poland believe they've made a startling discovery: a group of vampire graves.

The graves were discovered during the construction of a roadway near the Polish town of Gliwice, where archaeologists are more accustomed to finding the remains of World War II soldiers, according to The Telegraph.

But instead of soldiers, the graves contained skeletons whose heads had been severed and placed on their legs. This indicated to the archaeologists that the bodies had been subject to a ritualized execution designed to ensure the dead stayed dead, The Telegraph reports. [Famous Fangs: Tales of Our Favorite Vampires]

By keeping the head separated from the body, according to ancient superstition, the "undead" wouldn't be able to rise from the grave to terrorize the living. Decapitation was one way of achieving that; another way was hanging the person by a rope attached to the neck until, over time, the decaying body simply separated from the head.

There were other, equally bizarre ways of dealing with vampire burials, according to research published by forensic anthropologist Matteo Borrini. He cites the case of a woman who died during a 16th-century plague in Venice, Italy. The woman was apparently buried with a brick wedged tightly in her open mouth, a popular medieval method of keeping suspected vampires from returning to feed on the blood of the living. The woman's grave might be the earliest known vampire burial ever found.

Hers was a typical case of an accusation of vampirism following some calamity, such as a plague or a devastating crop failure. Accusing an individual of being a vampire was a not-uncommon way of finding a scapegoat for an otherwise unexplained disaster.

In other cases, the body of a suspected vampire might be staked to the ground, pinning the corpse into place with a stake made of metal or wood. In 2012, archaeologists in Bulgaria found two skeletons with iron rods piercing their chests, indicating they may have been considered vampires.

The practice of decapitating the bodies of suspected vampires before burial was common in Slavic countries during the early Christian era, when pagan beliefs were still widespread.

In fact, their belief in vampires stemmed from both superstition about death and lack of knowledge about decomposition. Most vampire stories of history tend to follow a certain pattern where an individual or family dies of some unfortunate event or disease; before science could explain such deaths, the people chose to blame them on "vampires."

Villagers have also mistaken ordinary decomposition processes for the supernatural. "For example, though laypeople might assume that a body would decompose immediately, if the coffin is well sealed and buried in winter, putrefaction might be delayed by weeks or months; intestinal decomposition creates bloating which can force blood up into the mouth, making it look like a dead body has recently sucked blood," writes LiveScience's Bad Science columnist Benjamin Radford. "These processes are well understood by modern doctors and morticians, but in medieval Europe were taken as unmistakable signs that vampires were real and existed among them."

There's no consensus yet on when the bodies found in Poland were buried. According to Jacek Pierzak, one of the archaeologists on the site, the skeletons were found with no jewelry, belt buckles, buttons or any other artifacts that might assist in providing a burial date.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on August 18, 2013, 09:19:19 pm
I've been seeing more of these "stories" lately in the MSM. It just got me thinking how maybe they're using these propaganda stories to explain away the rapture of the dead in Christ to those left behind when the AC is revealed(ie-to "explain" those "opened" graves).

We'll still be here when the antichrist is revealed. Whether you're pre, mid, post or whatever.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thessalonians 2:3)





Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 08, 2013, 11:28:14 pm
http://movies.yahoo.com/news/seth-rogen-raunchy-end-doing-back-theaters-211132079.html
What’s Seth Rogen’s Raunchy ‘This is The End’ Doing Back in Theaters?
9/8/13

What’s Seth Rogen’s Raunchy ‘This is The End’ Doing Back in Theaters?

Sony this weekend re-released its raunchy Seth Rogen comedy “This is the End,” which came out in June, so that it could hit the $100 million mark in domestic grosses.

It’s doing the trick. After bringing in $2 million from 2,161 theaters it’s at $98.9 million, leaving it just a little more than $1 million shy of the box-office benchmark.

It should pass the mark sometime this week, and it will be the fifth summer comedy to do so. Fox’s Melissa McCarthy-Sandra Bullock buddy tale “The Heat” ($157 million), Sony’s Adam Sandler sequel “Grown Ups 2” ($130 million) and Warner Bros.’ “We’re the Millers” ($123 million) and “The Hangover Part III” ($112 million) have already done it.

With a production budget of $32 million and $116 million in worldwide grosses, “This Is the End” is clearly a financial winner for Sony. But bragging rights are nice, particularly since Sony had a tough summer with high-priced disappointments “After Earth” and “White House Down.”

Evan Goldberg co-wrote and directed with Rogen. Jay Baruchel, Danny McBride, Craig Robinson, Michael Cera and Emma Watson co-starred in the R-rated tale of young celebs partying hearty as the world ends.

The re-release of “This Is the End” likely got a boost from the recent TV airing of “The Comedy Central Roast of James Franco.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They rarely re-release movies for this reason(so that it can reach a certain benchmark) - the reasons why are rather obvious why, IOW.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 15, 2013, 09:33:58 pm
OK, I'm not saying is Putin is the Antichrist. But as we've discussed here, the AC could very well rise to fame and popularity on the world stage before the rapture(as 2nd The 2 may be disccusing just that). So far, it seems like Putin is getting a growing number of that. Even Infowars and the Christian Post sites have written flattering articles about him recently.

TIME magazine puts Putin on the front cover in every world market(Europe, ME, Africa, Asia, and South Pacific) EXCEPT for the USA.http://content.time.com/time/magazine/asia/0,9263,501130916,00.html

http://www.infowars.com/putin-steps-into-world-leadership-role/
Putin Steps Into World Leadership Role

Excerpt:
Quote

Most of Putin’s critics are too intellectually challenged to comprehend that Putin’s brilliant and humane article has left Putin the leader of the free world and defender of the rule of law and exposed Obama for what he is–the leader of a rogue, lawless, unaccountable government committed to lies and war crimes.

Putin, being diplomatic, was very careful in his criticism of Obama’s September 10 speech in which Obama sought to justify Washington’s lawlessness in terms of “American exceptionalism.” Obama, attempting to lift his criminal regime by the bootstraps up into the moral heavens, claimed that United States government policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.”

What Obama told Americans is exactly what Hitler told the Germans. The Russians, having borne more than anyone else the full weight of the German war machine, know how dangerous it is to encourage people to think of themselves as exceptional, unbound by law, the Geneva Conventions, the UN Security Council, and humane concerns for others. Putin reminded Obama that “God created us equal.”

If Putin had wanted to give Obama the full rebuke that Obama deserves, Putin could have said: “Obama is correct that the policy of the US government is what makes the US exceptional. The US is the only country in the world that has attacked 8 countries in 12 years, murdering and dispossessing millions of Muslims all on the basis of lies. This is not an exceptionalism of which to be proud.”

Putin is obviously more than a match for the immoral, low grade morons that Americans put into high office. However, Putin should not underestimate the mendacity of his enemies in Washington. Putin warned that the militants that Washington is breeding in the Middle East are an issue of deep concern. When these militants return to their own countries, they spread destabilization, as when extremists used by the US in the overthrow of Libya moved on to Mali.



Again, I'm not saying he's the guy. But nonetheless, WATCH.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 23, 2013, 01:22:28 pm
http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/the-secret-american-subculture-of-putin-worshippers-20130919
The Secret American Subculture of Putin-Worshippers

The Russian president has his fans here—who see him as the very epitome of macho manliness.

9/19/13

Two years ago, Gayne C. Young, a Texas-based writer and blogger for Outdoor Life, scored the interview of a lifetime. As a beat writer, Young had enjoyed the outdoor exploits of Russian President Vladimir Putin, who has been documented shooting a gray whale with a crossbow, tranquilizing a tiger attacking a news crew, hunting shirtless, fishing shirtless, and riding horseback shirtless. On a personal level, Young liked the rugged brand of masculinity that seemed a throwback to Teddy Roosevelt. "Although you have Clinton shooting ducks, you never see it. Although Rick Perry says he enjoys hunting, you don't see it. They say they do, but they don't. Obama says he shoots skeet, but they only released one picture," Young says. "Here's a guy out there fishing, with no qualms. He's like, 'You don't like it? Tough.' Then he'd escalate and do more."

His posts on Putin brought in great traffic, so his editor kept encouraging him to escalate. Soon, Young was declaring his "man crush" on the Russian president. ("I hate to use that word, especially on a hunting website," he admits.) He called the Russian consulate, flirted with the right secretary, and went through "hoop after hoop after hoop" until, one Friday, a press attaché called and told him the president wanted his questions in the next 20 minutes.

Young scrambled and sent something over. Six weeks later, Putin replied with an almost unbelievable 8,000-word missive—covering everything from tiger conservation to his favorite works of Hemingway to the innate frailty of human life. He lectured on the similarities between Russians and Americans, and demurred from answering Young's friendliest questions. ("Are you the coolest man in politics?") "People really liked him, at least on our comments section on Outdoor Life," Young says. "Given the demographics of the readership, most are die-hard Republicans," and when they saw Putin hunting, he says, "they were like, 'Obama wouldn't do that.' "

Putinphilia is not, of course, the predominant position of the conservative movement. But in certain corners of the Internet, adoration for the leader of America's No. 1 frenemy is unexceptional. They are not his countrymen, Russian expats, or any of the other regional allies you might expect to find allied with the Russian leader. Some, like Young and his readers, are earnest outdoorsy types who like Putin's Rough Rider sensibility. Others more cheekily admire Putin's cult of masculinity and claim relative indifference to the political stances—the anti-Americanism, the support for leaders like Bashar al-Assad, the oppression of minorities, gays, journalists, dissidents, independent-minded oligarchs—that drive most Americans mad. A few even arrive at their Putin admiration through a strange brew of antipathy to everything they think President Obama stands for, a reflexive distrust of what the government and media tells them, and political beliefs that go unrepresented by either of the main American political parties.

They utterly perplex many observers of the Russian-American relationship. "No clue as to what drives it, other than some form of illness," says Russian-born novelist Gary Shteyngart, author of Absurdistan.

There are many faux Putin fans in America—those who mock the hero worship ironically or half-ironically. But plenty of his fans are serious. Three months ago, Americans for Putin, a Facebook group, sprang up "for Americans who admire many of the policies and the leadership style of Russian President Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin" and think he "sounds better than the Republicrat establishment." The group has an eight-point policy platform calling for "a unified [American] national culture," a "firm stance against Israeli imperialism," and an opposition to the political correctness it says dominates Washington. Though that group is relatively small (167 likes as of Wednesday afternoon, ticking up every few hours), the Obama's-so-bad-Putin-almost-looks-good sentiment can be found on plenty of conservative message boards. Earlier this year, when Putin supposedly caught—and kissed—a 46-pound pike fish, posters on Free Republic, a major grassroots message board for the Right, were overwhelmingly pro-Putin:

"I wonder what photoup [sic] of his vacation will the Usurper show us? Maybe clipping his fingernails I suppose or maybe hanging some curtains. Yep manly. I can't believe I'm siding with Putin," one wrote. "I have President envy," another said. "Better than our metrosexual president," said a third. One riffed that a Putin-Sarah Palin ticket would lead to a more moral United States.

The cult of Putin in America probably has its strongest hold on the readers of ostensibly apolitical humor sites that target young men, such as Cracked and theChive. Cracked's post on why Putin is "The World's Craziest Badass" drew more than 1 million views. TheChive's slide show naming Putin "The Real Life Most Interesting Man in the World" inspired several hundred comments—only a few from Putin-haters distressed to see that he had such a following.

Putin is hardly the first—or the worst—antihero to enjoy the devotion of a small segment of Americans. Nor is he the first to benefit from a deep, reflexive distrust of public institutions like the government or media. The most recent and disconcerting example is the hero worship of Boston Marathon suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, who has a cult following online. Many doubt law enforcement's assertion of his guilt; others create Tumblr pages worshipping him like the latest teenage pop star.

As for Young, recent years have tested the man-crush. He still thinks the guy he interviewed would make a great fishing partner, but he dislikes the "saber rattling" he sees between Putin and Obama. "A lot of people in the outdoors world will say to me, 'Hey look what your boy Putin is doing now. I always respond: 'It's Vlad, and I'm not sure that's the real one,' " Young says.  "It's really hard for me right now, with what all is going on, to say which Putin he really is. I would like to say he's the one who answered my questions."



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 26, 2013, 10:20:09 pm
Was reading up a bit on this Sunday School movement. Even before the Sunday School movement, there were sects of organized religion/education, the MA Bay Colony Plymouth Pilgrims being one of them. Eventually, they embraced the SS movement, but nonetheless they embraced some kind of organized religion/education prior to that, and their fruits showed.

Pt being that you see the modern-day organized church system believe in this Historicism eschatology heresy(which comes from the RCC, and believes prophecy is being fulfilled gradually over time interpreted symbolically, and the Rev 13 Antichrist is some system that happened a long time ago). This is exactly the same eschatology belief the Pilgrims, Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, John Wesley, and other organized religion types held too - no surprise, b/c even the Pilgrims, Spurgeon, Henry, and Wesley held to organized church system beliefs.

FWIW, I have a book written with Spurgeon quotes in it - one of the things he said was that Christians should NOT preach about the 2nd Coming of Christ, b/c it hurts our preaching of Christ's 1st Coming to others. Sorry Spurgeon, but scripture says otherwise...

1Peter 1:6  Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:


1John 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jn 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.


It's no wonder why the modern-day church buildings, 99% of them, scoff at end times prophecies now. And the seeds were planted some time ago.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 11, 2013, 12:56:59 am
First off, I'm not trying to talk about Greg Miller here - but I was listening to a sermon he preached over who the Rev 13 beast could be yesterday, and when he talked about Judas Iscariot...to be honest, this is something I've really been thinking about over the last couple of years, and here's why according to scripture...

2The 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

John_17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Notice here - in 2nd The 2, Paul calls the Antichrist the son of perdition. In this verse in John, Jesus was referring to Judas Iscariot as the son of perdition.

Acts_1:25  That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Notice here when this verse refers to Judas, it doesn't say he's asleep in the grave before judgment - but he's in HIS OWN PLACE.

Rev_17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Now look at this passage - was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit...

Rev_11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Just curious - is the bottomless pit and hell the same thing? When you start to tie in everything together from the above verses, it doesn't sound like they're the same thing. And as we all know, the dead are asleep in the grave before judgment.

Also - someone on this forum pointed out that the AC could be Jewish. Especially considering how the end times largely focuses on Israel, this wouldn't surprise me.

Daniel 11:36  And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Dan 11:37  Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.



Again, I'm not trying to bring Greg Miller into this discussion - but like said, this is something I've been thinking about for awhile b/c of the "son of perdition" references in 2nd The 2 and John 17:8, which for some reason made me wonder if Judas Iscariot could be involved. 


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Christian40 on October 11, 2013, 04:34:23 am
This subject was brought up recently on Now The End Begins blogtalkradio that i listened to. The host said after looking at some of them verses it is FACT that the Antichrist is Judas Iscariot. i know the host listens to Peter Ruckman which made me think did he get the idea from Ruckman? If it is Judas as Antichrist i think he will go by a different name when he appears. Jesus has many names so i think that the Antichrist in counterfeiting will have many names too. In my thinking i'm not looking for the Antichrist i'm looking for the Blessed Hope the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Just curious - is the bottomless pit and hell the same thing? When you start to tie in everything together from the above verses, it doesn't sound like they're the same thing. And as we all know, the dead are asleep in the grave before judgment.

They are different i know in the Greek the two words are different meaning.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on October 11, 2013, 05:20:04 am
Judas is not the Antichrist. Judas died in the flesh.

16  Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17  For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18  Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19  And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20  For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Acts 1:16-20 (KJB)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 11, 2013, 05:24:20 am
Judas was taken over by Satan at the time. Just as Satan will one day fully take over the Antichrist, probably after he suffers his head wound. It wont be the actual Judas from Jesus's time, whom killed himself after he realized what had happened.


Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.


We can see here when Satan entered and took control. It will be the same with the Antichrist, most likley at Rev 13:3, when the antichrist dies and coms back to life.

But it isnt Judas Iscariot.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on October 11, 2013, 05:34:21 am
Quote
Just as Satan will one day fully take over the Antichrist

See, I don't see it working that way. The Antichrist is all evil all on his own. He's not a human that becomes possessed by Satan, hes effectively a part of Satan, same evil spirit. While he may appear as a normal human, he won't be normal at all. Satan is a single entity unlike God. He can't be in two places at once like God can. So if he were to possess the AC, then that's where he would be till he doesn't possess him. See what I mean? He's not omnipotent.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 11, 2013, 05:50:25 am
Well i interpret Rev 13 as the Antichist being killed and coming back to life. And at the time is when Satan fully inhabits the body.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on October 11, 2013, 06:13:04 am
From scripture, I don't know if he is actually killed/dies, but yes, he does suffer a "deadly wound" and is healed. But I still don't believe he gets "possessed". He's evil all on his own.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 11, 2013, 06:52:24 am
well, we can see where the worship starts, it is after the deadly wound is healed and that is when the false prophet arises and makes the people to worship the beast.


Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


the deadly wound has to be a significant one, in to which i believe the antichrist is killed, and in a mockery of Lord will arise three days later being incarnated by satan himself. This will easily sway the people, for no one has ever come back from the dead before.  ::)



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on October 11, 2013, 01:53:22 pm
Quote
This will easily sway the people, for no one has ever come back from the dead before.   ::)

Indeed.

"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 (KJB)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on October 11, 2013, 09:27:25 pm
Well i interpret Rev 13 as the Antichist being killed and coming back to life. And at the time is when Satan fully inhabits the body.

I understand this viewpoint, and it makes sense. However, if we go to Revelation:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (Revelation 16:13)

That would insinuate they are in two different places, and not inhabiting the same body, wouldn't it? Just my two cents.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on October 12, 2013, 05:15:30 am
I understand this viewpoint, and it makes sense. However, if we go to Revelation:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (Revelation 16:13)

That would insinuate they are in two different places, and not inhabiting the same body, wouldn't it? Just my two cents.

Well, the antichrist is possessed by Satan. So we have the Beast the Antichrist, the Dragon who is Satan and the False Prophet who is the second Beast. The Antichrist is killed and brought back to life, and at this point is possessed by Satan, the Antichrist is still there, just not pulling the strings. So we can have 2 demons come out of the antichrist, 1 from him and 1 from Satan himself.

We can see how the 2 are still separate right after the Trib.


Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


We can see here how the Beast and the False Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, and Satan is locked up for 1000 years. So it still works with Satan indwelling the Beast, just as he did Judas Iscariot.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on February 08, 2014, 02:53:59 am
Consider this...

If there is in fact a "pre-trib rapture", why are Christians so concerned about not taking the MOB? It's not mandated till the last half of the tribulation when the deal with Israel is broken.

We won't be here when it is mandated and revealed to the world. The warning would then be for those people left behind in unbelief during the last 3.5 years, which by then the body of Christ has been long gone from the earth.

So my point is why are we making such a big deal now about the current digital age in relation to the mark off the beast? I find myself avoiding or whatever things related to the digital system, when reality is that there is no risk for us now, right? Till the body is raptured, the mark is, in effect, for Christians a moot point.

I then have to be honest and admit that there is currently no difference between having a SS number, or a high tech digital passport, or a pay swipe NFC card, or for that matter even a chip in the hand. While it may be the overall beast system, we currently use it pretty much every day, so what's the difference? It's okay to use it a little bit now, but not for everything?

An ATM is okay, but paying by swiping your cell phone is the mark and shouldn't be used? As I said, I'm realizing that for the body of Christ, use the world's digital system or not, doesn't matter, we'll be gone before the mandate is instituted.

See my point?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on February 08, 2014, 07:35:56 am
for us today, nope no problem. Heck i dont carry or use cash. so much easier. There are actually real benefits to a cashless society. But it can be a severe control mechanism for that society. no way around that. But the MARK itself is only in existence for a very short time, and what most people tend to over look is that there is WORSHIP involved with taking the MARK. Its not just hey lets run down get the MARK and get some food. You have to WORSHIP the Beast. You will be rejecting Jesus for all time and accepting the Beast as your savior.

So for people to flip out and say i dont use a debit card its the Mark, dont know their Bibles very well. Is the technology there for the Mark today? Yep, and we were told to watch for those signs.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 08, 2014, 10:44:16 am
for us today, nope no problem. Heck i dont carry or use cash. so much easier. There are actually real benefits to a cashless society. But it can be a severe control mechanism for that society. no way around that. But the MARK itself is only in existence for a very short time, and what most people tend to over look is that there is WORSHIP involved with taking the MARK. Its not just hey lets run down get the MARK and get some food. You have to WORSHIP the Beast. You will be rejecting Jesus for all time and accepting the Beast as your savior.

So for people to flip out and say i dont use a debit card its the Mark, dont know their Bibles very well. Is the technology there for the Mark today? Yep, and we were told to watch for those signs.

Yes, exactly! We were told to watch for these signs, and guess what...2000 years later, these signs are slowly but surely coming to pass before our very eyes. But guess what, the Apostate, lukewarm, modern-day 501c3 Laeodician(sp) church is either asleep and/or scoffing at all of this like it's come "conspiracy theory" when all of this is coming to pass right before our very eyes. Yes, the unbelieving world is too, but we should expect nothing less of the unbelieving world. It's ultimately the Apostate, organized "church" system that's doing all of the scoffing, and ultimately helping to usher in this One World Religion of worshiping the Antichrist.

Worried and concerned about it? No, not at all - it's a lot like all of these earthquakes, volcanos, wars and rumors of wars, etc that are showing up in divers places - we too are commanded to WATCH for them(but let not our hearts' be troubled).


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on February 09, 2014, 04:44:43 am
Quote
and what most people tend to over look is that there is WORSHIP involved with taking the MARK. Its not just hey lets run down get the MARK and get some food. You have to WORSHIP the Beast.

Correct, as I understand it. While there is a physical "mark", there is the spiritual aspect, the worship of the beast. This is why I believe born-again Christians won't take it, none of them, because Jesus says, "...none of them is lost...".

So, for now, the bigger concern for people is not the physical mark, it's the spiritual mark of unbelief, and belief in the beast instead.

Christians are "marked" in their foreheads, which I understand to mean that mark is the Holy Ghost within as a result of their faith in Jesus.

Quote
Heck i dont carry or use cash. so much easier. There are actually real benefits to a cashless society.

And that's the carrot, it's so much easier, which it is in most cases, and it actually is technically a more secure method, in theory. But you know how that goes! User beware the digital trolls.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on March 02, 2014, 04:56:48 pm
Correct, as I understand it. While there is a physical "mark", there is the spiritual aspect, the worship of the beast. This is why I believe born-again Christians won't take it, none of them, because Jesus says, "...none of them is lost...".

So, for now, the bigger concern for people is not the physical mark, it's the spiritual mark of unbelief, and belief in the beast instead.

Christians are "marked" in their foreheads, which I understand to mean that mark is the Holy Ghost within as a result of their faith in Jesus.

And that's the carrot, it's so much easier, which it is in most cases, and it actually is technically a more secure method, in theory. But you know how that goes! User beware the digital trolls.

You hit the nail on the head when you said there is a spiritual aspect to go along with the physical, technological aspet. I really believe the mark of the beast will have something to do with the rite of initiation that you find in modern day secret societies, the new age movement, the mystery cults of the ancient world, etc. I also believe it has something to do with the third eye in the forehead. Yes, I understand that it can be in the forehead OR the right hand, but I've posted in the past that the right hand is also significant in the occult world, and is symbolic of "white witchcraft" like the Kabbalah  ::)

Just conjecture, but I think it's interesting to know about.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on March 19, 2014, 12:12:43 pm
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Verse 4 is talking about the Lords second coming. Notice how it says we will appear with him. That means he had to get us at an earlier point....



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 19, 2014, 01:04:46 pm
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Verse 4 is talking about the Lords second coming. Notice how it says we will appear with him. That means he had to get us at an earlier point....



Yeah, the more I read these epistles, the more I'm seeing a pre-trib rapture.

Ephesians 3:3  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


The word "mystery" is key when you read these scriptures.

James 1:5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.


And let us keep in mind this - it's GOD who unleashes the Revelation judgments(NOT the Illuminati, nor the Jesuits, nor the Freemasons, like these Alex Jones-types want to make you believe).


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 19, 2014, 01:46:32 pm
Also - like we were saying on the "missing" Malaysian airplane thread - all the jibber-jabber you see the news media trying to explain away this "disappearance".

It reminds me over how they'll do the same thing after the rapture of the church - explaining away all of these "disappearances" with vain babbling to no end.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on April 03, 2014, 11:18:14 am
Are You Pre-Flood, Mid-Flood or Post-Flood?

By Sandy Howard
http://www.raptureready.com/soap2/howard16.html

Do you remember that old TV show called, Name That Tune? It was a game show where the contestants would say, “I can name that tune in four notes,” for example. Whichever contestant was able to name the tune in or less than the number of notes declared—was the winner. Well, I’m telling you that I can name that Pre-Tribulation Rapture tune in one Scripture:

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth” (Revelation 3:10).

Okay, now let’s read that again:

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the HOUR of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”

There, I actually named that Pre-Tribulation Rapture tune in one word of one verse.(Emphasis on the word “hour” is mine.) So, if you stop at this word while reading this verse and think a minute, what does the word “hour” mean? It’s a block of time. A measure of time. Or as the dictionary describes it:

Noun: hour; plural noun: hours

1. A period of time equal to a twenty-fourth part of a day and night and divided into 60 minutes.

“An extra hour of daylight.”

A less definite period of time.

“During the early hours of the morning.”

The distance traveled in one hour.

“Ocean City is less than an hour away.”

2. A point in time.

“I wondered if my last hour had come.”

So, Jesus (Who authored the book of Revelation thru John) is saying that He will keep those of us who persevere from the HOUR of trial…as opposed to only keeping us from the TRIAL itself.

To understand this in simpler terms, I like Pastor Robert Jeffress’ analogy of a teacher telling the first few rows of the class that they will be taking a test tomorrow but announcing that the people in the last few rows of desks will not be required to be in attendance during tomorrow’s class time since they will be exempt from taking the test.

Note that in this analogy, the teacher does not tell the students who will be exempt from the test that they need to attend the class for the duration (HOUR) but will not have to take the test. In other words, they will be “protected” from the test but will still be in attendance for the HOUR of testing. Seems clear, doesn't it, that we will be exempt from the HOUR of the test?

Don’t like that one or too hard to understand? Okay, here’s another example. I can name that Pre-Tribulation Rapture tune in three verses:

“In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.On the very same day Noah and Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark” (Genesis 7:11-13).

I could point out what God did not say.I could point out that Noah and company did not enter the ark in mid-flood or after the flood was over.But, I don’t think we need an analogy for this one, do you?This seems plain to see, to me.This looks like common sense.It reads like common sense. It speaks like common sense.I really think God’s Word is common sense. And I fear we are going to make nonsense out of it if we try to make any other sense.

Jesus said, “I am coming.”And, I think it’s plain to see from just the four verses mentioned in this article that He is coming before the Tribulation. So, since all the signs are pointing to the Tribulation’s imminent beginning, it also seems clear that He is coming SOON!So, please, I encourage you to get ready.

Please come quickly Lord Jesus, I am so ready to go Home!


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Kilika on April 04, 2014, 03:42:14 am
They could at least use the correct bible text! Churchianity!  ::)

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Revelation 3:10 (KJB)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 14, 2014, 11:48:15 am
Pics inside: http://wordlikeafire1611.wordpress.com/2014/04/14/a-true-church-is-not-a-mega-church/
4/14/14

A true church is not a mega church

April 14, 2014 / King James Bible truth   
 
A Biblical church is a body of believers. A Biblical church is not a building. A Biblical church looks quite different than the buildings today. Modern mega churches are preparing for the one world religious system spoken of in Revelation 13. There is nothing Biblical about a mega church, unless you attribute it to Revelation 13.

Today we’re going to look at just what is going on in the mega churches of today. First, lets get one thing clear. What is a church?

Acts 20:28  Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

God didn’t purchase a building. He purchased believers.

1 Corinthians 6:20  For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

New Testament Christians met in houses (Romans 16:5)

New Testament Christians never built giant buildings and invited the unsaved in. Paul went out and evangelized, street preached, taught in public schools, and preached door to door. He didn’t have a building where millions stood around him as he taught them how to get successful in life.

So what changed?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

A worldwide apostasy has to come before the man of sin is revealed.

This is what we see today. The mega church movement is the ideal setting for one world worship.

I would like to show you some photos.

Millions of people

Mass entertainment, globe, lighting.

dancing and shows

This is not a Biblical church.

What is it?

Revelation 13:2  And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Great authority? Those in great authority are seen around the world.

**Yep - last I checked, both Charles Stanley and Joel Osteen put out their Sunday morning services on the (wicked)Lifetime Channel - TLC is a MAINSTREAM network. Pt being that it costs ALOT of $$$ to put out a non-commercial programming on television, period.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

How can all the world wonder after someone unless he is on every screen in every building? The antichrist is connected to a system of worship.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

It’s a system of worship. And these false churches are preparing the way for it.

A massive building with massive screens, massive speakers, crowds, all of these things are preparing the way for one world worship.

This is seen by the spiritual state of the mega church movement. Sound doctrine has been replaced with unity and compromise. The Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ has been replaced with feeling good and so called tolerance. The truth has been replaced with lies. The Bible has been replaced with stories. Hell and damnation have been replaced with success and prosperity. All they need now it the man of sin they are waiting for.

We are living in perilous times and we cant stop them. We need to get back to the King James Bible, and the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. We need to do public ministry and stop building buildings that the man of sin will one day appear in. We need to preach the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ will be returning very soon.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's not just the megachurches, but even the medium-sized churches have these flatscreen tvs behind their pulpits - ultimately, it's being used for mind-control(ie-no longer do pews read out of the hymn books and bibles, but just blindly read off of what's on these tv screens). And when all is said and done, these "pastors" will say how it's Jesus Christ coming back when this man of sin shows up on these flatscreen tvs.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 17, 2014, 12:40:48 pm
2Thes 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Being a long-time former post-tribber - I'll admit that the "...until he be taken out of the way" part I NEVER understood(no matter how many times I read and tried to compare scripture with scripture). And it wasn't only me, but other post-trib believers/teachers COULDN'T explain it either.

Pt being that when someone showed me this verse(can't remember who, but I think it was Bryan)...

Colossians 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

So as we can see in this verse(among others), the CHURCH(born-again believers) is Jesus Christ's BODY(where Jesus Himself is the HEAD). Ultimately, it was right there when the Lord helped me to understand the "...until he be taken out of the way" part - yes, scripture indeed does teach a pre-trib rapture.

Matthew 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 10, 2014, 01:09:20 pm
1Corinthians 13:3  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Just think about this for a sec - during the time of Jacob's trouble, what is salvation? Putting your faith in Jesus Christ AND NOT taking the mark of the beast(meaning you'll be beheaded).

On the contrary - during the Church Age(which we are living in now) - yes, I know the Apostles/Foxe's Book of Martyrs were burned at the stake, and all who live godly shall suffer persecution(as we must earnestly contend for the faith), but nonetheless...is suffering persecution(whether put to death, or mocked, etc) a *requirement* for salvation during this Church Age? Nope.

Ultimately, I found this particular verse very interesting(as I read it last night) - if we as Christians have not charity, then it profiteth us nothing if we give our bodies to be burned. This is where alot of the post-tribbers are wrong - they say how we need to be "purified" continually(meaning being persecuted to the death for contending for the faith). The rest of this chapter explains it beautifully...

1Co 13:4  Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

1Co 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 17, 2014, 10:30:14 pm
FYI, these Babel church buildings are pushing The Message Bible - this so-called "bible" was re-written by ONE MAN(Eugene Peterson), who pretty much inverted, changed, etc almost all of the texts.

Pt being that it's these very Babel church buildings that are conditioning their pews for the rapture(meaning they're conditioning them to accept the Antichrist after all of these disappearances happen).

Matthew 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (KJB)

The Message replaces the word "man" with DOOMSDAYERS - no wonder why The Apostate Church of today has alot of scoffers(including these "pastors" who endorse this abomination "bible").

Also - this "bible" ENDORSES pre-marital sex in 1st Corinthians 6:13-20.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 29, 2014, 08:55:45 am
2Corinthians 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


This is speaking to BELIEVERS - IOW, look at the word ALL in this verse. Yes, if you're a born-again believer in the Church Age, we SHALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ(NOT the great white throne of judgment).

Yet another example of a pre-trib rapture in scripture.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 01, 2014, 05:25:14 pm
Titus 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;


Here's more proof(yet again in the Pauline epistles) that the pre-trib rapture is the correct doctrine...

Verse 13 refers to it(obviously) - nonetheless, look at verse 12 right before it - no wonder why the Apostate church is in the very, very, very rotten shape it's in now...b/c they're embracing ungodliness and worldly lusts(ie-their expensive church buildings, using this CCM nonsense, having astronomical budgets, using recreation time with the outward appearance of it being "vacation bible school"/"sunday school"/etc, bringing in New Age theology, etc).

And this verse goes for all born-again believers too - no, we don't lose our salvation if we fall back into worldly lusts, but nonetheless look at what it says in this verse 12 after warning not to get into ungodliness and worldly lusts - we should live SOBERLY. Personally, I can attest to the fact that there are times, especially of late, when I have backslid into worldly lusts, that all of a sudden all of the end times prophecies that I've been watching out for(and moving at a faster rate now) won't cross my mind during these times(and I'll all of a sudden have this mindset that everything's goody-goody). But the Lord is merciful, and has grabbed my attention each and every time. But nonetheless, we have to be very careful.

1Peter 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1Pe 5:9  Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the s
ame afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 20, 2014, 06:54:18 pm
Just read this(again) - this should be iron clad proof that born-again believers in the NT Church Age won't be here during the 7 year great tribulation period...

Matthew 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


As you all know - this is Jesus Christ's 2nd Coming at the end of the great trib period - he SENDS HIS ANGELS to gather the believers(who also don't take the mark of the beast, that is).


1Thes 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Compared to this passage - this is at the END OF THE CHURCH AGE b/c look how born-again believers(both the dead and the current living) RISE IN THE AIR to MEET the Lord in the clouds! And to boot - where is Michael the archangel even mentioned in the Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17/21 2nd Coming verses?


Every now and then when I listen to a few of these YT channels like Bryan's - there are those that come in the comments sections and start attacking the pre-trib doctrine(ie-saying how supposedly Jesuits, John Nelson Darby, etc made it all up) - pt being that do NOT let them fool you and bring you to discouragement. Just point them to these very verses(at the least least!).


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on January 13, 2015, 07:34:40 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKk4NPgYI9s


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on January 22, 2015, 06:48:27 pm
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2872707/microsoft-leaps-into-3d-computing-with-windows-holographic-and-hololens.html
Microsoft leaps into 3D computing with Windows Holographic and HoloLens
1/21/15

"We're dreaming about holograms," said Alex Kipman of Microsoft, as he unveiled a new set of technologies that will bring 3D imaging and augmented reality to Windows. That's right: holograms—possibly the biggest surprise from Wednesday's the Windows 10 consumer preview unveiling.

'It's actually three technologies that will work together: Windows Holographic, which will enable 3D imaging in all future builds of Windows 10. Windows HoloLens, a headset for viewing and interacting with 3D images. And finally, the HoloStudio application will let you make your own holograms.

Microsoft teased the possibilities in a video: a HoloLens-wearing man played a 3D version of Minecraft. A HoloLens-wearing woman walking through an office, talking to a colleague on an image floating in front of her. Another user walked within a planetary scene. In a more everyday context, the weather report popped up on a family room rug, with 3D imaging augmenting the data.

The HoloLens itself is "the most advanced holographic computer the world has ever known," said Kipman. The headset will be completely wireless, with its own high-end CPU and GPU—and it will have a third chip, a Holographic Processing Unit, or HPU. (New anagram alert!)

"It will understand your gestures and voice," Kipman promised, "and spatially map the entire world around us." And unlike AR solutions we've seen up to now, the HoloLens will not need markers, external cameras, or a tethered phone or a PC to help it process the data—"terabytes of information from all of these sensors, all in real time," he described.

For the real-time demo of Windows Holographic and the HoloLens, a woman built a flying robot using a 3D "toolbox" that floated in her field of vision along with the object itself. She could pick items from the toolbox and apply them to the hologram, and move the hologram as she examined her work.

Finally, Kipman unveiled HoloStudio, an application for making your own holograms. (We're taking bets on who'll be first with their Princess Leia hologram imitation—"Help me, Obi Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope.")

Windows 10 may still be in preview, but adding holograms, 3D imaging, and augmented reality to the operating system pushes Windows way ahead of Mac OS X and Chrome OS, changing how people use computers in their daily lives. Stay tuned for our hands-on from the event.

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Revelation 13:11  And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12  And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.



Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on January 23, 2015, 07:55:36 pm
http://www.infowars.com/bill-gates-pushes-cashless-society/
BILL GATES PUSHES CASHLESS SOCIETY
Scheme would allow government to confiscate money at will

1/22/15

Bill Gates is now promoting “digital currency” in third-world countries, which will make the poor even more dependent on central banks while also turning them into guinea pigs for the development of a “cashless society” in the U.S. and Europe.

Gates outlined his plan for a cashless society in a letter published Thursday in which he proposed the poor have better access to mobile phones so they can store their financial assets digitally instead of keeping hard currency at home.

“The key to this will be mobile phones,” he wrote. “Already, in the developing countries with the right regulatory framework, people are storing money digitally on their phones and using their phones to make purchases, as if they were debit cards.”

“By 2030, two billion people who don’t have a bank account today will be storing money and making payment with their phones.”

But this will only enslave the poor into an electronic monetary system they don’t control, allowing central banks and the government unparalleled ability to confiscate money at will through taxes and “bail-ins.”

For example, after Cyprus’s largest bank was sunk from exposure to debt-crippled Greece, the Cypriot government looted people’s bank accounts in 2013 as part of a “bail-in” program with the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank.

“If you can do this once, you can do it again,” financial analyst Lars Seier Christensen wrote, who called the “bail-in” full-blown socialism. “If you can confiscate 10% of a bank customer’s money, you can confiscate 25, 50 or even 100%.”

A third-world government wouldn’t even need to wait for an economic crisis to loot digital bank accounts, however, with the cashless scheme Gates proposes, officials could simply impose a tax and confiscate money automatically.

And there’s no reason to believe this scheme will only be limited to the third-world; the United Kingdom has already tested digital-only payments earlier this year.

“While the whole idea is being marketed as an inevitable consequence of the decline in cash payments and the rise of credit cards and contact-less payment technology, many in the privacy community see the elimination of cash as another means of abolishing anonymity,” Paul Joseph Watson wrote.

“Alternatives to cash that could still provide anonymity, such as crypto-currencies like Bitcoin, are slowly being adopted by more stores and chains, but at nowhere near the rate required to provide a viable competitor to the likes of Google Wallet and Paypal.”


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 03, 2015, 11:54:45 am
Someone from our YT fellowship group posted this gem of scripture that proves a pre-trib rapture...

The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. -Isaiah 57:1

Read it closer - the lost world WILL buy into the Antichrist's "explanation away of these disappearances".

Please stand fast to the pre-trib doctrine, brethren!


Title: UN chief appoints new Special Coordinator for Middle East peace
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 06, 2015, 02:25:11 pm
Not that I endorse the leavened "Left Behind" movies - but the Antichrist in these movies had the same first name.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=50013#.VNUxhDKvW4M
2/5/15
UN chief appoints new Special Coordinator for Middle East peace

5 February 2015 – Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon today appointed Nickolay Mladenov of Bulgaria as his new Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process and Personal Representative to the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Palestinian Authority, the UN Spokesperson’s office announced today.

Mr. Mladenov, who is currently head of the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq (UNAMI), will replace Robert Serry, of the Netherlands, to whom Mr. Ban is “grateful for his dedicated service and excellent leadership of the Office of the United Nations Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process (UNSCO),” said a note to correspondents.

Mr. Mladenov has also been a Member of the European Parliament for Bulgaria before and served as his country’s Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister of Defence.

In his new role, he will, among other things, oversee the ongoing UN-backed reconstruction efforts in Gaza where thousands of people are seeking access to building materials for urgent repairs to their homes following last summer’s conflict in the war-ravaged enclave.

According to a recent UN assessment, as it stands now, over 100,000 homes were damaged or destroyed, affecting more than 600,000 people. Many people still lack access to the municipal water network. Blackouts of up to 18 hours per day are common.

In addition, the violence killed more than 2,100 Palestinians and more than 70 Israelis.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 08, 2015, 04:23:39 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEILAC0-LtU


Title: A CHARISMATIC NEW WORLD LEADER APPEARS FROM NOWHERE AND TAKES CONTROL OF GREECE
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 12, 2015, 11:00:32 am
No, I'm not endorsing the idea that this is THE Antichrist or anything - but this article is very interesting nonetheless...

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=30736
2/11/15
A CHARISMATIC NEW WORLD LEADER APPEARS FROM NOWHERE AND TAKES CONTROL OF GREECE

A MAN HAS COME ON THE INTERNATIONAL SCENE, AND MANY WHO KNOW THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AS THEIR SAVIOR, ARE TAKING A HARD LOOK AT HIM.

“And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.” Revelation 13:2 (KJV)

EDITOR’S NOTE: We are looking for Jesus Christ, and not the Antichrist. But when we discovered this new “mystery man” who from nowhere has taken rock-star control of Greece, is backed by George Soros, has formed alliance with Russia and is talking with Pope Francis about a peace treaty between Israel and the Palestinians. We thought you just might want to know about it.

His name is Alexis Tsipras, and it seems that he meets much of the criteria of the prophesied Antichrist. He was just elected as the Prime Minister of Greece. He is an atheist and a far left winger. His party in Greece is called SYRIZA. He has appeared out of nowhere in the last couple of years, almost magically. He has landed himself in a most precarious situation. Greece is broken. Is he the one to fix it, and also the EU which is struggling and groping at almost anything to revive Europe? All eyes are on this man.

On Sept 17, 2014 Mr. Tsipras met with Pope Francis at the Vatican. He was the first leader of a left-wing party that met the head of the Roman-Catholic church–ever. This is not surprising with this Pope, because he is rabidly ecumenical, and very “Green”,  always talking about global warming and people harming the earth. It has been said that Tsipras and the Pope get along famously, and are in one accord. No problem that one claims to be the head of the “faithful” on this earth, and the other, a staunch atheist. Could it be that there are unseen circumstances, not being divulged to the public? I would say, assuredly so.

(http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/who-is-alexis-tsipras-could-he-be-antichrist-666-mark-beast-greece-one-world-government.jpg)

Terry James of Rapture Ready wrote a piece on the possibility of this man being the Antichrist, but he made strong point at the beginning of the piece, telling Christians that we should be looking for the glorious appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ to Rapture His church from this earth.

Here are two excerpts from Terry James article on “Nearing Midnight”

Antichrist Archetype Emerges

“…There has surfaced, in my view at least, an archetype of the leader to come who will be the first beast of Revelation 13.  This generation is not yet in the Tribulation, but is experiencing precursors to that last seven years that makes us know that a time of unprecedented troubles is just ahead. Likewise, a leader has arisen from the area of the reviving Roman Empire, one whose emergence makes the observant Bible prophecy student suspect ever more assuredly that Antichrist is waiting in the shadows of the immediate future.

Any such leader rising suddenly and dramatically out of the very nucleus of what was ancient Rome justifiably raises the eyebrows of Bible prophecy students.  The visible, physical reactions of those who have put him on his pedestal are quite interesting…glassy eyes filled with tears of joy, as they looked worshipfully at the man on whom they are hanging their hopes.  As a matter of fact, the slogan for his campaign was “Hope is coming!” — Terry James, RaptureReady.com

“I think we are looking at an archetype of the man whose name will add up to six hundred, three score and six.”—Terry” [1] – source

Here is part of a blogpost from christianpost.com:

“One interesting candidate that is clearly different from most of the others is Greek politician Alexis Tsipras He is the nominee for the Party of the European left; he also is the youngest of all the candidates at 39 years of age. He is a total atheist whose political roots are in socialism and communism. He remains un-married, but has cohabitated with his high school girlfriend for twenty years and they have one child.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK-4G4VWUz4

Not only is he a wildly popular figure in Greece, but was elected unanimously to the SYRIZA a conglomerate of 13 far left radical groups. He has an Obama-like quality of being believed without a long established history of significant accomplishments or well accepted political plans or skills.” [2] – source

Alexis Tsipras sworn into office takes Civil Oath

“Alexis Tsipras, who was sworn in earlier this week as the new Prime Minister of Greece, has become his country’s first openly atheist leader. A survey noted that atheist leaders in Europe are becoming more prominent, with France and Croatia also being led by non-religious figures.

Tsipras was sworn in on Monday after his Syriza party won the elections in Greece, but he chose not to take a religious oath at the ceremony. Reuters noted that Tsipras, whose left-wing party has opposed austerity measures, broke from tradition when he decided to take a civil, rather than a biblical oath.” [3] – source

He is the first leader of Greece to refuse to take a religious oath on the Bible in the history of the country.

Tsipras has met with Pope Francis to discuss a peace treaty with Israel:

Tsipras said: “Even though we started from different points, ideological points, we believe we have common positions in the principles of solidarity, in the principles of justice, peace and cohesion.”

We agreed on the need to continue the dialogue between the European left and the Christian church,” he said. “There is a need to create an ecumenical alliance against poverty, inequalities, against the logic that markets and profits are above people.”” - Alexis Tsipras in meeting with Pope Francis

The Pope and the new Greek leader also discussed climate change. Pope Francis is open to everyone, well almost everyone. He embraces the Atheist, the Wiccan, really any beliefs are fine with him, as long as social justice is addressed and a common hatred of Capitalism is quite important.

Think of how the bible describes the character and nature of the Antichrist, while you read the following quote from Alexis Tsipras official website:

Quote
“We discussed the need for peace to return on earth, for the immediate cease of war interventions…asked him to take an international initiative for the termination of conflicts in the Middle East. Finally, we agreed that the dialogue between the Left and the Christian Church must go on. We may have different ideological starting points; however, we converge on common values, like solidarity, love for the fellow Human being, social justice, and our concern regarding world peace.” Alexis Tsipras in his meeting with Pope Francis

Alexis Tsipras as the Antichrist? Pope Francis as the False Prophet? It certainly is pretty interesting, wouldn’t you say?

George Soros backs Tsipras

“The Guardian featured an article today about George Soros and the opening of his “Solidarity Center” in Thessaloniki, Greece, the first of many he plans to open in order to help Greeks who were hit the worst by the economic crisis.”

You see, it is a hobby of Mr. Soros to take his billions of dollars and play politics. He groomed Barack Obama for his entrance onto the world stage. He is part of the New World Order (Illuminati). He is probably one of the most evil people who ever walked the earth. Strong statement – I know. But how about Hitler? Of course, Hitler was incredibly evil. But did you know what George Soros did in Germany during the Holocaust? He was a teen and from a billionaire father. He was a Jew, but to save his own life, he turned in his fellow Jews to be loaded on the trains, heading for their deaths. He is unrepentant of these deeds – he says there is nothing to be sorry about.

Isn’t it interesting that the pre-elections took place in Thessaloniki (Thessalonica from the Bible) and now Mr. Soros has established his Solidarity Center in that same city? One thing I find fascinating is that in the Bible, the Antichrist was spoken of in much detail by the Apostle Paul in the book of 2 Thessalonians 2:

“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.”

There are no coincidences with our God.

“According to the article Aliki Mouriki, a sociologist of the Greek National Center for Social Research said: “Greece, to a great degree, has become a failed state. It is unable to provide basic facilities for its citizens because of budget cuts. In the absence of public welfare, and with around one and a half million officially unemployed, growing numbers are looking for substitutes elsewhere.”

Last year, George Soros had offered Greek institutions 1 million dollars to buy heating oil, after mayors in different Greek municipalities requested help. “It had got to the point where some of the schools had not a drop of oil left. This month we got 20,000 tons from Soros and it has really helped. The government has now promised an extra four million euros but we have yet to see it,” said the mayor of Naoussa in Northern Greece.

George Soros has donated money for heating oil to approximately 190 Greek institutions such as orphanages, schools, nurseries and homes of the elderly and is planning to open “Solidarity Centers” around Greece. The first one opened in Thessaloniki just a few days ago and is already filled with applications.

George Soros’ philanthropy has been the subject of a great controversy. Parents’ associations all over Greece are refusing donations because they are suspicious of his motives. Yiannis Boutaris, mayor of Thessaloniki responded saying “Why Soros gives money to Thessaloniki or other Greek regions, or even to NGOs to help vulnerable groups, should not be the centre of attention. It is the fact that Greek tycoons, shipowners and those from the diaspora don’t follow his example.”[4]

Russia is looking to make an ally within its biggest enemy – Greece

The plot is beginning to thicken.

Greece’s defense minister was invited to Moscow to meet Sergei Shoygu, his Russian counterpart, in the near future. Greece is part of the 28 members of NATO. Russia has always regarded NATO is its biggest threat. Now, Russia appears to have a newfound interest in establishing a relationship with Greece’s defense minister. On Tuesday Kammenos met with both the US and Russian ambassadors to Greece.

The solidarity shown to #Greece by the peoples of Europe is the European “dream” in practice. It is the future of #Europe

— Alexis Tsipras (@tsipras_eu) February 10, 2015

“The discussion with the ambassador of Russia, Mr. Maslov, was also about the pending agreements between the Ministries of National Defence of Greece and Russia, the capabilities of a strategic cooperation, the organisation of the year of Greek-Russian friendship in 2016 which will take place in Greece and in Russia. I received an invitation by Russia’s Minister of Defence to visit Moscow within the next period of time,” Kammenos wrote on Greece’s Ministry of National Defense website.” [5] – source

The new Greek government at times has been critical of both the EU and NATO. Tsipras has spoken of withdrawing from NATO.

“On Nato, Syriza describes its approach as a ‘multi-dimensional, pro-peace foreign policy for Greece, with no involvement in wars or military plans.’ It seeks ‘the re-foundation of Europe away from artificial divisions and Cold War alliances such as Nato.’ … Last year on Syriza MP called for Greece to leave Nato altogether, though the comments were rapidly played down by senior officials,” writes BBC.


“The new Greek government is cause for concern, especially because Tsipras has voiced his opposition to NATO membership in the past,” Ian Bremmer told Business Insider last week. “And his early actions — these comments regarding sanctions, as well as his meeting with the Russian ambassador to Greece without hours of taking office — demonstrates that he is willing to engage differently with Moscow.”

It Was Just Like Obama’s First Election Night!”

Already there are comparisons between Tsipras and Obama. The adoring crowds. The rock star status. The people really don’t know much about their new PM. Sound familiar?

They know that Tsipras met his partner, and mother of his kids, in high school, when they both joined Student’s for Communism.

I have been digging into the Internet, attempting to find everything I can about Alexis Tsipras. What I am about to tell you will probably shock you as it did me. I want to stress that I have found this information on different Greek sites (translated of course) and it by no means proves that this is true. But if it is, then I do think that we “may” be looking at the Wicked (as the Bible calls him).

Here is what I have been reading:

Quote
“The father of Alexis Cipra, Pavlos Cipra, died in 2012. He was a billionaire with a direct link with the Mossad, he was the father of a slave BHL entrepreneur in Africa where he was trafficking in Africans. He sent dozens of Africans in Greece in order to exploit them, giving them just enough to survive in its construction companies and public travux.

The family business “SKAPANEA” was responsible for all major public works in Greece since the junta until today, construction / restoration of Orthodox churches through broadcasting. Like the Italian Mafia, the other companies have to pay a percentage to the “family” if they want to survive. “ [6] – source

Yes, you read that correctly. I have been finding people in Greece saying that Tsipras is actually “Cipra” and is of Jewish blood.

“Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.” Many End Times scholars have concluded that this passage of Scripture from Daniel 11:37 shows the Antichrist to be atheist, since he no longer regards the God of his fathers.

We as children of God, should be looking for the Blessed Hope of His appearing to catch us away from this wicked planet. But we should also be watchmen on the wall, discerning the times and events. In this way, we will be more informed to share our thoughts and Scripture with others.

 And when I look at Tsipras/Cipra – I see someone who may just be the man of sin of which the Bible speaks.

We won’t be here, but this should give us pause, and make us realize that we need to share the Gospel with everyone we know!!


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on February 12, 2015, 12:16:18 pm
Just read this and was coming to post it....  :o  :o  :o


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 12, 2015, 02:21:44 pm
Just read this and was coming to post it....  :o  :o  :o

I reacted the same way when I read it yesterday.

I don't know if he's the Antichrist, but nonetheless as we're getting closer - look how many of these world leaders are "coming out of nowhere" in such a short space. For example, look at Obama - he was an unknown until 2004 when he, out of the blue, won the US Senate seat from IL.(and the rest has been history since)

And now this guy just "magically" appears from nowhere 2 years ago, and ends up not only winning the Greek PM election, but also being active on the world stage?

bro Mark, I recall you said how in 2nd Thes 2, the rapture of the church won't happen until the AC is revealed - meaning he likely will be seen on the world stage PRIOR to the rapture(born-again believers will see him, while Apostate Churchianity and the lost world won't). Maybe you're on to something here... ;)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on February 12, 2015, 03:20:53 pm
yep, the AC has to have some kind of rise to power. Just how many world leaders will vanish during the rapture? 1 maybe 2 if that? So he has to have some form of power. Now if this guy gets invited to start speaking at other countries or Brussels or the UN, then we really have something going on.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: FervorForFaith on February 12, 2015, 10:02:20 pm
I'm not so sure.

I did some research on this guy. I couldn't find any definitive evidence that he is of Jewish lineage. That is the first and foremost point when trying to identify the Antichrist.

He's anti-Zionist from the sources I've read. According to rabbi Mordechai Frizis, (regarding Syriza, the political party of Tsipras) "this is an anti-Zionist party that is against Israel. A Jew in Greece can't be happy today with the elections results." That poses a problem to his "candidacy" for two reasons: 1) I can't see Tsipras allowing the Jews to have their temple and do the animal sacrifices, 2) Israel embraces the Antichrist at first (John 5:43).

Greece is within the four divisions of Alexander the Great's empire, so that definitely fits. It just seems to me that he fits more the "modern prophecy teachers" view of the Antichrist rather than the Bible view of the Antichrist. I could be wrong, though.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Christian40 on February 13, 2015, 12:46:57 am
I'm not so sure.

I did some research on this guy. I couldn't find any definitive evidence that he is of Jewish lineage. That is the first and foremost point when trying to identify the Antichrist.

He's anti-Zionist from the sources I've read. According to rabbi Mordechai Frizis, (regarding Syriza, the political party of Tsipras) "this is an anti-Zionist party that is against Israel. A Jew in Greece can't be happy today with the elections results." That poses a problem to his "candidacy" for two reasons: 1) I can't see Tsipras allowing the Jews to have their temple and do the animal sacrifices, 2) Israel embraces the Antichrist at first (John 5:43).

Greece is within the four divisions of Alexander the Great's empire, so that definitely fits. It just seems to me that he fits more the "modern prophecy teachers" view of the Antichrist rather than the Bible view of the Antichrist. I could be wrong, though.

was thinking that too that he has to be Jewish and claim that he has come from the line of David which he hasn't done, though he does look Jewish he could be hiding that he is Jewish cant say for sure he is the Antichrist but interesting anyhow.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on February 13, 2015, 12:36:55 pm
Greek PM edges towards bailout deal

Greece's new Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras edged closer to securing a massive overhaul of its huge bailout on Thursday after making his case to sceptical EU leaders including German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

Tsipras, the leftist leader elected by austerity-weary Greeks last month, agreed that Athens would start technical talks with eurozone partners on Friday in a bid to find common ground before a last ditch meeting of finance ministers on Monday.

But with Greece facing a possible exit from the euro when its 240-billion-euro ($270-billion) EU-IMF bailout expires at the end of February, Tsipras kept talking tough during his first summit with the other 27 European Union leaders.

"Greece will not blackmail or be blackmailed," Tsipras said in a press conference after the talks in Brussels.

He insisted that Greece would ditch the hated "troika" of creditors -- the EU, IMF and European Central Bank -- which oversees the bailout programme and carries out inspections to see that Greece is living up to its punishing reform commitments.

"Forget the programme, it no longer exists. The troika doesn't exist either," Tsipras said.

But he said that he discussed with his counterparts the possibility of a six-month bridging programme to give Greece time to work on a different programme that would be acceptable to its creditors, and "find an end to the crisis."

- Merkel 'amicable' -

Germany has been the strongest opponent of Tsipras's plans, adding to anger in Greece against Europe's biggest economy, which many in Athens blame for imposing years of austerity since the country's first bailout in 2010.

But Merkel suggested a "compromise" was possible and spoke of a "friendly" encounter with Tsipras in Brussels, during which they shook hands in front of the cameras.

"We greeted each other amicably, I congratulated him on his election," said Merkel, fresh off the plane from Minsk where she helped broker a peace deal for the conflict in Ukraine.

"On my part I showed my willingness to cooperate. Now we have to see which points we can agree on."

The more positive mood saw Greek shares surge over 6.0 percent while European stock markets rose and the euro was firmer against the dollar.

It was a far cry from the previous night in Brussels, when six hours of tense talks between Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis and his eurozone counterparts broke down acrimoniously without even agreeing on how to word a joint statement.

But on Thursday, Tsipras and Eurogroup head Jeroen Dijsselbloem agreed to renew efforts to "start work on a technical assessment of the common ground between the current programme and the Greek government's plans," a step that had nearly been agreed on Wednesday.

- 'Optimistic' Europeans -

Under the Greek proposals, Athens would stick to 70 percent of the programme but it would overhaul the remaining 30 percent which it sees as damaging to growth and toxic on issues including the new government's plans to raise the minimum wage.

Athens also wants a bridging loan until September to buy time to hammer out a new reform and bailout package, and to offer debt swaps based on economic performance as the Greek economy moves out of recession.

Other European leaders said they were hopeful of a deal before Monday, likely the last chance for an agreement if it is to have time to be passed by eurozone parliaments.

"It's my understanding that the discussions between Tsipras and Dijsselbloem were quite constructive and good," Finnish Prime Minister Alexander Stubb, usually a strong advocate for austerity, told AFP.

"At the end of the day, no one should underestimate the capacity of the Eurogroup meeting to find a solution and I'm carefully optimistic that something will come out over the weekend."

Grumbling continued however over the collapse of Wednesday's talks, with European sources telling AFP there had originally been an agreement on a joint statement with the other ministers, but that it was torpedoed by Tsipras after his finance minister spent 30 minutes on the phone with him to confirm.

German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble had already left on the understanding the statement had been approved, they said.

Greek sources denied this account and said Germany had tried to insert new wording.

http://news.yahoo.com/greece-does-not-blackmail-not-blackmailed-tsipras-224903077.html


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 13, 2015, 01:01:20 pm
So just like that, he broke his campaign promises - yeah, that was quick!(he promoted himself as anti-bailout)


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 17, 2015, 01:33:23 pm
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/16/greece-fails-rescue-package-eurozone-finance-ministers
2/16/15
Greece bailout talks break down after Athens rejects 'unacceptable' eurozone demands
Creditors present ultimatum as finance minister insists other members must water down austerity conditions if country is to reach ‘honourable agreement’


Talks between Greece and its eurozone creditors collapsed in disarray on Monday night, heightening concerns that the country is edging closer to a disruptive exit from the single currency.

The breakdown of discussions in Brussels over the Greek bailout programme appeared to leave both sides as far apart as ever, although eurozone finance ministers said a last-ditch summit could be held on Friday.

However, the Greek delegation was told in no uncertain terms that talks would recommence only if the country was willing to extend its bailout package, which carries a list of austerity measures that the new left-wing government in Athens has vowed to pare back.

Effectively presenting Greece with an ultimatum, the eurogroup of eurozone finance ministers said Athens had until Friday to agree to maintain the current bailout under the auspices of the European Union, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund – something that Greece has said is unacceptable.

Greece’s finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, made it clear in the acrimonious discussions in Brussels on Monday that Greece would not accept prolonging the bail out for six months unless the other 18 members of the eurozone agreed to water down the austerity conditions attached to the deal.

Varoufakis insisted that an “honourable agreement” was within reach for Greece, despite voicing strong criticism of unspecified advocates of Greece’s current bailout, who were playing “games with the future of Europe”.

“We are going to meet half way during the next couple of days,” he said. “Europe will do the usual trick, it will pull a good agreement, an honourable agreement, out of what appears to be an impasse.”

The Syriza-led coalition in Athens is convinced that, despite the tough language used by Germany, it can secure more favourable terms by holding out until closer to the 28 February deadline when its current €172bn (£127bn) bailout expires.

But it ran the risk on Monday night of infuriating other eurozone members through its negotiating stance and by leaking the details of a draft agreement while the meeting was going on.

A Greek official described the draft agreement as “unacceptable” because it restated that Greece must continue in its current bailout programme. “The Greek authorities have indicated that they intend to successfully conclude the programme, taking into account the new government’s plans,” stated a phrase in the rejected communique, which had been crossed out.

Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Dutch finance minister who chairs the eurogroup, said there had been disappointment about the failure to find common ground. But he insisted that the Greek government had to make the next move by asking to continue in the bailout programme. “The next step has to come from the Greek authorities; they have to make up their mind.” He said eurozone ministers were likely to meet on Friday, but this would be the last chance to get an agreement.

Recriminations began to fly after the meeting ended. Varoufakis accused Dijsselbloem of vetoing a more favourable deal for Greece that had been drawn up by the EU’s executive arm, the European commission. “We are ready and willing to reach an honourable agreement … no one has the right to work towards a dead end especially one that is mutually detrimental for all Europeans.”

He said Greece should not be asked to impose recessionary measures on its population. “Democracy changes the facts on the ground and we are a government that has a critique of the current programme.”

Greece’s current financing arrangements expire at the end of the month, but many eurozone parliaments would need several days to ratify any extension of the bailout.

Monday’s negotiations, which had been expected to last through the night, broke up abruptly with the formal talks on Greece lasting barely two hours.

Varoufakis, an economics professor, who specialises in game theory, insisted Greece is not bluffing about its negotiating tactics. In an article in the New York Times on Monday he wrote: “I am often asked: What if the only way you can secure funding is to cross your red lines and accept measures that you consider to be part of the problem, rather than of its solution? Faithful to the principle that I have no right to bluff, my answer is: The lines that we have presented as red will not be crossed. Otherwise, they would not be truly red, but merely a bluff.”

Analysts warned that the risks of Greece leaving the euro were growing, and that the crisis could be triggered if the European Central Bank decided that the lack of progress required it to suspend financial support.

Jennifer McKeown, senior European economist at Capital Economics, said: “Comments from officials on both sides suggest that even a short-term deal has not been reached at today’s eurogroup finance ministers’ meeting, adding to risks that Greece may exit the euro-zone.”

She added that “if the ECB considers the talks to have stalled, there is a risk that it will suspend emergency liquidity assistance, perhaps leaving Greece with no choice but to exit the eurozone. And if nothing else, the difficulties of reaching an agreement even to meet Greece’s immediate needs highlight just how difficult it will be to broker a deal on Greece’s debt sustainability that would ensure its euro-zone membership over the longer term”.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 17, 2015, 07:27:04 pm
He's really starting to get into the limelight... :!:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pm-tsipras-declares-war-home-greeces-oligarchs-130636186--business.html
PM Tsipras declares war at home on Greece's 'oligarchs'
2/17/15

ATHENS (Reuters) - Greece's new anti-corruption minister is not a politician, but he is in tune with the new crusading mood.

International attention on Greece since the Syriza party took over has focused on the leftist government's fight against an austerity package imposed from abroad.

But Panagiotis Nikoloudis, 65, a supreme court prosecutor and specialist on economic crime, is spearheading another battle declared by Syriza: this one on the home front, against some of the wealthy businessmen who dominate Greek political and economic life.

Speaking to parliament last week, Nikoloudis denounced an elite that included a "handful of families who think that the state and public service exists to service their own interests."

Such businessmen influence politicians and state officials or abuse their control of the media to unfairly win state contracts, change regulations to their advantage or escape prosecution for illegal conduct, critics say.

Prime Minister Alex Tsipras has announced radical measures aimed at what he calls the "oligarchs", including re-licensing private TV channels, ending "crony" bank loans for the well-connected, exercising the state's voting rights in the case of majority shareholdings of private banks, unwinding some key privatizations and aggressive tax audits of those with offshore bank accounts.

"We have made the decision to clash with a regime of political and economic power that plunged our country into the crisis and is responsible of Greece’s depreciation on an international level," Tsipras told parliament last week.

Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis has been equally blunt, declaring that his government will "destroy the oligarchy" in order to increase tax revenues, open markets and spur economic growth.

So far, no-one has been named in the crackdown, and few of Greece's top entrepreneurs have commented publicly.

But deals under scrutiny include the privatization of the national lottery and planned sell-off of state shares in major ports.

Energy Minister and Syriza party member Panagiotis Lafazanis told parliament last week the government would seek the cancellation of the "scandalous purchase" of the old Athens airport, Hellenikon, by Lamda Development, a company controlled by the family of Greece’s richest businessman, Spiros Latsis.

Latsis has not been personally criticized by Syriza.

Lamda responded with a statement last week lamenting "the discouraging message to the long-term private international investors that our country desperately needs."

Asked by Reuters to comment further, Latsis did not respond.

Businessman Yannis Vardinoyannis, whose family has interests in oil refining, shipping and the media, said in a statement to Reuters that Tsipras had a "valid point" in attacking "a certain regime that has played a significant role in influencing in a negative and corrupt way Greece’s business environment", and that tackling corrupt practices would be good for economic growth and business confidence.

He also noted that "owning and operating a globally successful organization does not classify you as an 'oligarch'".

"We have faith in our new Government and I personally welcome this type of approach where fair play, the law and regulations will prevail," he said.

NOT JUST TARGETING THE RICH

Syriza under Tsipras has long been critical of how a handful of Greek families play a dominant role and enjoy political patronage in key sectors of the economy.

But some critics say the Syriza government should make a clearer separation in its public rhetoric between its drive against illegal activity like corruption and tax evasion and its wider political agenda to curb the power of the rich, which could scare away investors and spur capital flight.

Nikoloudis told Reuters in an interview he was not accusing the wealthy in general.

"I would be crazy to think like that," he said.

He is still waiting to be given a new office, staff or a budget. But, speaking at his old office, he said previous investigations into oil smuggling, banking fraud and tax evasion had identified perpetrators who were wealthy businessmen with political patrons.

"So I don't attack the rich, but the people I've found committing crime just happen to be rich," he said.

As a non-political outsider with a clean record, Nikoloudis is a popular appointment among Greeks who believe corruption is deeply embedded in society. He has a reputation for action, and says the financial intelligence unit, which he led until now, developed a system of audits that identified over 20,000 people whose assets do not match their tax declarations.

George Sourlas, a senior official at the justice ministry and a former conservative MP and deputy speaker of the parliament, said he "had to admit" the anti-corruption measures put forward by Tsipras were "very impressive so far."

Sourlas praised Tsipras's promise to curb oil smuggling, a racket in which un-taxed fuel for export or commercial shipping is diverted and sold instead for domestic consumption, evading sales tax due. Previous governments have been aware of the racket for years but did nothing, Sourlas said.

"The smugglers have the support of political power and a relationship with all political parties," he said, declining to elaborate.

TAX REVENUES

University professor Dimitris Mardas has been appointed deputy finance minister to spearhead measures to tackle both un-taxed revenues and corrupt procurement.

In an interview, he outlined the program he has in mind to defeat the smugglers, from installing GPS systems on fuel barges in ports to new incentives for customs officers to forcing refineries to hand over more data.

Mardas said he hoped to recover a billion euros of missing annual revenue just from tackling fuel smuggling.

But skeptics question if Syriza's hopes for a windfall of tax revenues from the crackdown are realistic.

Harry Theocharis, a former chief tax collector and now a newly-elected MP for a centrist party, said Mardas was exaggerating the revenue lost by smuggling.

The bigger problem, he said, was that tax evasion and corruption in general extends well beyond the rich. But going after evasion by professionals or other restrictive practices such as unfair barriers to professions maintained by trade unions could threaten Syriza's political support.

Nikoloudis has acknowledged that targeting the richest and most powerful would not eliminate tax evasion.

In fact, he found the biggest companies in Greece were the most scrupulous in paying their taxes, unlike many self-employed people. "Specifically everyone who has a hotel or a taverna on an Aegean island systematically commits tax evasion."

An attack on corrupt behavior by powerful interests was perhaps more about justice than revenue-raising, he said.

"Even if we accept that some people will take their money and go abroad, I would prefer to take that risk instead of seeing the economy of my country based on dirty money and corrupt enterprise."

Not every oligarch would be challenged, and not all crimes of the past could be prosecuted.

"I am not going to fight everyone. I don't want to break my nose. I want to change the system. That's my ambition."


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 20, 2015, 05:37:55 pm
http://www.timesofisrael.com/new-greek-pm-is-pro-palestinian-but-envoy-to-israel-predicts-only-positive-things/
New Greek PM is pro-Palestinian, but envoy to Israel predicts ‘only positive things’
Alexis Tsipras slammed Israeli ‘brutality’ in summer war, but incoming FM said last month Greece could mediate between Israel, Palestinians, Iran


1/28/15

During last summer’s Gaza war, Alexis Tsipras, the new prime minister of Greece, said Israel’s “brutality cannot be tolerated.” Senior members of his party — which in this week’s elections nearly got an absolute majority — participated in the 2010 flotilla, which sought to break Israel’s naval blockade of Gaza and resulted in a deadly clash between Turkish activists and Israeli troops. One of the party’s delegates to the European Parliament is said to be openly sympathetic to Hamas.

And yet, relations between Greece and Israel will remain friendly, as both sides value the “strategic importance” of increased bilateral cooperation, Greek government officials and representatives of the Jewish community said Tuesday.

On Sunday, the far-left Syriza party won the national parliamentary elections by a landslide, obtaining 149 of 300 seats. After building a coalition with the small right-wing ANEL party, Tsipras was sworn in as prime minister Monday.

Israeli officials have watched Greece’s political shift closely, since the bilateral relationship had dramatically improved in recent years, as Israel’s ties with Turkey have deteriorated.

“I can see only positive things in the future,” Greek ambassador to Israel Spyridon Lampridis said. “Criticism yes — you receive criticism from any government, so you might hear, say, comments about this or that policy of the Israeli government by the new Greek government, which might have some problems with some of [Israel’s] policies. But that will not change the overall target, which is the stability of the region, which is beneficial to both countries.”

It is true that some voices in Syriza — an acronym for Coalition of the Radical Left — are leaning toward the Palestinian narrative, Lampridis allowed. But there are several indications that Jerusalem has no need to worry, he added. For one, politicians act differently once they are in charge of running a country. “It’s a party has [entered] the government, therefore [party leaders might become] much more responsible and careful in the policies they are about to advocate.” Secondly, the diplomat said, Syriza’s junior coalition partner is “very well-known for its pro-Israeli attitudes.”

The continuation of strong ties is in the interest of both countries, the ambassador told The Times of Israel. “There is a reality called ‘instability in the Mediterranean’. No matter who is in the democratically elected government in Greece, [one] cannot ignore the fact that there are very few democratic prosperous states with Westerns ideals in the region. Israel is one of them. See around you, there is a very limited array of countries with which Greece can cooperate.”

The Israeli Foreign Ministry on Tuesday refused to comment on the incoming government in Athens, pointing to a statement issued Monday, which “praised the elections in Greece and looks forward to a continuing special relationship between Greece and Israel, which has only grown in the past few years.”

The new ruling party in Athens historically has not been very fond of Israel. In its platform, Syriza explicitly called for an end to Greece’s defense cooperation with “aggressive” Israel, prominent Greek-Israeli businessman Sabby Mionis wrote in 2012, though he allowed at the time that some party leaders appeared to have adopted a more moderate approach.

“They are certainly hostile towards Israel and the relationship between the two countries will be challenging,” Mionis told The Times of Israel Tuesday. “I certainly hope that Syriza will recognize the strategic importance of this relationship and will soften its stance. Several members of Syriza, including some who are getting government positions, were even [aboard] the Flotilla in 2010.”

On the other hand, Greece’s outgoing prime minister, Antonis Samaras, who had very good ties with Jewish groups over his opposition to the far-right Golden Dawn party, invited several politicians with neo-Nazi ties into his cabinet, Mionis pointed out. “I think that bringing such characters into the political mainstream is far more dangerous” than Syriza’s left-wing criticism of Israel.

During last summer’s Operation Protective Edge, Tsipras, the party head and new prime minister, said that “Palestine is in perpetual war — this war must stop at some point; this brutality cannot be tolerated… When civilians and children are killed at beaches facing the same sea that borders the European continent, we cannot remain passive, because if this happens on the other side of the Mediterranean today, it can happen on our own side tomorrow.”

But the appointment Tuesday as foreign minister of Nikos Kotzias, an international relations professor who is not a member of Syriza, indicates that the new government in Athens will not pursue a hostile policy toward Israel, several observers of Greek politics said.

Kotzias, who used to work for former center-left prime minister George Papandreou, “is a rather pragmatic politician so I do not expect a deterioration of bilateral relations” with Israel, said Emmanuel Karagiannis, a Greece-born senior lecturer at the Department of Defence Studies at King’s College London. “Kotzias has viewed Turkey as the main geopolitical competitor of Greece in the Eastern Mediterranean. Therefore, I believe the Greek-Israeli partnership will survive this political change.”

In an article published on his blog [Greek link] last month, Kotzias wrote that Greece could mediate between the Palestinians and Israel and between Israel and Iran.

The incoming Tsipras government is a “coalition of Marxists, right-wingers and moderate leftists but I do not expect major changes in the Greek foreign policy,” Karagiannis said. The new defense minster, Panos Kammenos, for instance, is known as a pro-US and pro-Israeli right-wing politician.

According to Karagiannis, the Greek government will not rush to recognize a Palestinian state, “since most of its efforts will be directed toward managing relations with EU partners.”

A prominent member of the local Jewish community lauded Syriza for its principled stance against Jew hatred and said he looked forward to continued “excellent relations” with government authorities.

“During the last two years we had a very positive dialogue with the leadership of Syriza [which] always supported the fight against anti-Semitism in Greece,” Victor Eliezer, a member of the Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece and its former secretary-general, told The Times of Israel Tuesday.

A candidate during last year’s local elections used anti-Semitic stereotypes and was swiftly thrown out by the party leadership, he said.

“Syriza always condemned anti-Semitic attitudes and leading members demonstrated their solidarity when they visited the Jewish Museum of Athens, and the Holocaust monument in Athens after its desecration.”

Eliezer said he was certain that “the excellent cooperation” the local Jewish community had with the outgoing government on religious and educational matters, such as “excellent educational programs for teaching the Holocaust,” would continue.

Acknowledging differences in opinion regarding Israeli policies, Eliezer predicted the new government will nonetheless seek to foster good ties with Jerusalem. “The new prime minister Tsipras will continue the policy of developing the bilateral relations between Greece and Israel, as these relations are considered as of strategic importance, for the benefit of both people.”




Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 21, 2015, 09:10:35 pm
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/greek-pm-tipras-says-euro-121524381.html
Greek PM Tsipras says euro zone deal cancels past austerity commitments
2/21/15

ATHENS (Reuters) - Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said on Saturday that a funding agreement struck with euro zone ministers cancelled austerity commitments made by a previous conservative-led government to international creditors.

After often ill-tempered negotiations, Greece secured late on Friday a four-month extension to euro zone funding, which will avert bankruptcy and a euro exit, provided it comes up with promises of economic reforms by Monday.

"Yesterday we took a decisive step, leaving austerity, the bailouts and the troika," Tsipras said in a televised statement. "We won a battle, not the war. The difficulties, the real difficulties ...are ahead of us."

Tsipras and his Syriza party won power last month on promises to end Greece's EU/IMF bailout programme and end cooperation with the hated "troika" -- inspectors from the European Commission, European Central Bank and IMF who have monitored Greece's compliance with its austerity and reform commitments.

Instead Athens was forced to accept the conditional extension of the bailout and still deal with the troika, renamed in the deal as "the three institutions".

Nevertheless, he said: "Yesterday's agreement with the Eurogroup ... cancels the commitments of the previous government for cuts to wages and pensions, for firings in the public sector, for VAT rises on food, medicine."

Tsipras, a radical left-winger, had been under heavy pressure to secure a deal as Greeks have been pulling huge sums out of the country's banks, fearing the talks with euro zone finance ministers would fail and Greece would be cast adrift as the bailout had been due to expire on Feb. 28.

Without naming names, he attacked conservatives at home and in the euro zone. "Yesterday we averted plans by blind conservative powers, within and outside the country, to asphyxiate Greece on Feb. 28," he said.

About 1 billion euros fled Greek bank accounts on Friday, a senior banker told Reuters, due to savers' fears that Athens might have to halt such withdrawals or prepare to reintroduce a national currency. Greece says Friday's extension should calm such fears.

"Greece achieved an important negotiating success in Europe. We showed determination and flexibility and in the end, we achieved our basic goal," said Tsipras.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Christian40 on February 22, 2015, 03:16:04 am
Europe is rapidly realigning itself behind the charismatic new Greek leader

But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. Daniel 11:38 (KJV)

"Like Pope Francis in Rome, new Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is making dizzyingly-fast change in Greece that is having a ripple effect across Europe. The anti-God leader’s example has given rise to atheist leaders in other Euro nations.

Round and round she goes, and where she stops only the prophets know…

Alexis Tsipras, who was sworn in earlier this week as the new Prime Minister of Greece, has become his country’s first openly atheist leader. A survey noted that atheist leaders in Europe are becoming more prominent, with France and Croatia also being led by non-religious figures

Already there are comparisons between Tsipras and Obama. The adoring crowds. The rock star status. The people really don’t know much about their new PM. Sound familiar?

Tsipras was sworn in on Monday after his Syriza party won the elections in Greece, but he chose not to take a religious oath at the ceremony. Reuters noted that Tsipras, whose left-wing party has opposed austerity measures, broke fromtradition when he decided to take a civil, rather than a biblical oath.

Quartz analyzed public statements from European leaders and identified at least two others who have also said that they are atheists — French President Francois Hollande and Croatian Prime Minister Zoran Milanović.

Hollande, who was raised a Roman Catholic but left the religion, said in 2002: “I have reached a point where what is clear to me is the conviction that God doesn’t exist, rather than the contrary.” He separately added that he respects all faith, but chooses not to have one."

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=31040


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on February 25, 2015, 09:12:44 am
Greek PM Tsipras’ Shocking Demand For Reparations From Germany Over WWII Nazi Occupation

I find it interesting that the new PM of Greece, Alexis Tsipras, and Vladamir Putin of Russia have become best friends. When powerful people align themselves with one another, you can be sure there is a geo-political reason. The old “You scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” becomes the game of choice. 

Putin has been spewing lies about Ukraine, and stating that the country is filled with Neo-Nazis in powerful political positions. This is propaganda. Pure lies.

Now, suddenly Tsipras is demanding reparations from the occupation of Greece by Germany 70 years ago during WWII. It’s not a coincidence that the two narratives are so similar. Watch these two evil leaders, as they scheme and manipulate the world to achieve their goals.

(http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/greek-pm-alexis-tsipras-tells-germany-to-pay-world-war-two-reparations-nazi-occupation.jpg)
greek-pm-alexis-tsipras-tells-germany-to-pay-world-war-two-reparations-nazi-occupation

“Tsipras claims Germany owes Greece around €162 billion ($183 billion) – about half the country’s debt load, which is estimated at over €315 billion.”

The figure is said to cover €108 billion for infrastructure damage wrought by the occupying Nazi forces between 1941 and the end of the war, and €54 billion as compensation for the unpaid loan.

Berlin has vehemently refused to consider the payment of any reparations. “Nearly 70 years after the end of World War II, the question of reparations has lost legitimacy,” a German finance ministry spokesman declared recently.”

German Vice Chancellor and Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel also denies any opportunity of making payments to Greece, as the treaty signed in 1990 did not outline any additional payments in the future.

“The probability is zero,” he said.

However, Greece does not agree and says the payments must be discussed with united Germany – not with the nation as it was in 1990.” [1] – source

Is it just me, or is anyone else seeing the result of a pow-wow between Putin and Tsipras? The world should keep an eye on these two communist leaders. Nothing they do will be for the good of anyone except for Russian and Greece.

Watch Putin use the “neo-nazi” narrative, which by the way, western journalists are swallowing without a bit of vetting, to launch a ground offensive against all of Ukraine. They will take back Ukraine which was once a part of the USSR.

Watch Tsipras as he turns leftist journalists against Germany, and squeeze every penny he can from Merkel. Russia will certainly ante up the rest of Greece’s debt.

Who knows? We may have a new empire forming, and you can bet that Greece will be a part of it. All these things the Lord allows, so that His prophetic Word will be fulfilled.

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=31046


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 27, 2015, 10:30:48 am
http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=31123
WHY IS THE EU PARLIAMENT BUILDING MODELED AFTER THE CURSED TOWER OF BABEL?
2/24/15

THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE EU PARLIAMENT IN THE IMAGE OF THE TOWER OF BABEL SENDS THE MESSAGE THAT NIMROD HAD THE RIGHT PHILOSOPHY AND HIS TOWER OF BABEL WAS A GOOD IDEA.

“And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. “ Genesis 11:4,5,9 (KJV)

Recently, we have been writing on a particularly interesting character, the new PM of Greece, Alexis Tsipras. Many Christians are now looking at this man with heightened interest. He seems to embody many of the Biblical descriptions of the coming Antichrist. Time will tell, and we will be watching.

The Louise Weiss building is meant to look like painting “The Tower of Babel” by Pieter Brueghel the Elder in 1563.

In this article, I will be reporting on something that I find as interesting as Tsipras himself. We will look at the EU Parliament Building, and more specifically at their building. Ever since it was completed in December of 1999, the EU parliament has raised questions and many eyebrows by its peculiar architecture. Although it is meant to have a modernist look, many say that it was fashioned after Nimrod’s Tower of Babel from the Scriptures.

Why does it look unfinished?

Promoters say it reflects the “unfinished nature of Europe”. However, some research on the subject reveals the dark and deep symbolism of the building. Exposing the real source of inspiration behind the Louise Weiss building is exposing the esoteric beliefs of the world elite, their dark aspirations and their interpretation of ancient scriptures.

We’ll go straight to the point: the Louise Weiss building is meant to look like painting “The Tower of Babel” by Pieter Brueghel the Elder in 1563. Story says that the Tower of Babel was never completed.


So, the UN Parliament is basically continuing the unfinished work of Nimrod, the infamous tyrant, who was building the Tower of Babel to defy God.

Do you think this is a good source of inspiration for a “democratic institution”?

The Story of Nimrod and the Tower of Babel

The story of Nimrod and the building of the Tower of Babel is found in many ancient manuscripts from various cultures around the world. Genesis 11 in the King James Bible starts off right after the end of the flood of Noah, and lets us know that:

“And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.” Genesis 11:1 (KJV)


The bible tells us that there was worldwide unity and harmony, a good thing, right? Wrong. No sooner is the whole world together then they immediately plan to overthrow God and “build a tower to Heaven”. That’s the result of bringing in World Peace without the King of Peace, Jesus Christ. We all know the story, the build the tower, make some pretty good progress right up until the moment where God confounds their speech with a multiplicity of previously unknown languages., and they are scattered. It looks like the modern-day European Union is headed for the exact same fate.

The official motto of the EU Parliament is this: “Europe – Many Tongues One Voice”. Now, add to their motto that their official headquarters is an updated version of the biblical Tower of Babel and I think you begin to see not only motive but intent as well.

Symbolism of the EU Parliament

The construction of the EU Parliament in the image of the Tower of Babel sends the message that Nimrod had the right philosophy and his Tower of Babel was a good idea.

What we can expect to see from the EU on this path:

A gradual introduction of tyranny
The elimination of the worship of God to introduce dependence on power
All people speaking the same language and the same religion
Rejecting God while trying to become gods

You know what? Those are major precepts of the esoteric beliefs of the world elite. Their belief system is based on the Mystery Religions (pagan rituals, worship of the Sun, considering Lucifer as the one who gave light to the human race, seeing God as a force wanting to keep humans in the dark).

Their New World Order will have evacuated all worship of God, introduced a single language and changed democracy to tyranny.

HERE IS THE OFFICIAL POSTER PROMOTING THE EU PARLIAMENT:

(http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/europe-many-tongues-one-voice-parliament-building-tower-of-babel-babylon.jpg)

In the poster we see the people of Europe rebuilding the Tower of Babel, only it’s not the ancient Tower of Babel but a very modern-day counterpart, the Louise Weiss building. It reminds me of the movie Jurassic Park where they use DNA samples to recreate the ancient dinosaurs only to find themselves as the prey of those same animals. Amazing how history repeats itself and how bible prophecy is always correct. Every time.

Here’s some points to note:
Point #1: We have a confirmation that the Louise Weiss building was truly inspired by the Tower of Babel. The poster recreated the exact tower on Pieter Brueghel’s painting, even making sure to include the broken part of the foundation. There is NO question there.

Point #2: The slogan: “Europe: Many Tongues One Voice” refers to God confusing the people with many languages. Lessons learned since Genesis 11? Zero.

Point #3: Look closely at the stars at the top. Do they look strange? They are upside down aka reversed pentagrams. The symbolism behind pentagrams is extremely deep and complex but we can say that a regular pentagram refers to “Good Ruling” and a reverse pentagram refers to “Evil Ruling”.

This poster has been banned due to protests by numerous groups. It is however extremely revealing and proves the esoteric mindset of the builders of the European Union’s Parliament.

In Conclusion:

The European Union is a superstate that currently includes 28 countries (more in the future).
The same fate awaits American and Asian countries, who are bound to unite under the same flag and currency to create other superstates. Those are the building blocks towards a Single World Government, a goal actively sought by the world elite.
The EU Parliament Building is the first monument representing a superstate and reveals, through its intense symbolism, hatred of religion, plans for a New World Order and their subtle endorsement of tyranny.
Are you as convinced of the demonic powers at work here as I am?

With this new information in hand, the Alexis Tsipras piece now is even more intriguing, wouldn’t you say?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 27, 2015, 10:51:34 am
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31599688
24 February 2015 Last updated at 08:50 ET
Greece debt: EU says reform proposals 'valid'

Greece is a step further on its way to receiving a bailout extension after its list of proposed reforms was backed by one of its key creditors.

Top European Commission officials called the proposals "sufficiently comprehensive to be a valid starting point".

European finance ministers are set to discuss the list shortly.

Greece needs approval from international creditors to secure a four-month loan extension.

Newly elected Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is trying to balance satisfying the demands of creditors with meeting his pre-election pledges.

His government wants to clamp down on tax evasion, corruption and inefficiency in order to fund social spending and alleviate what it calls Greece's "humanitarian crisis".

'No roll back'
The statement from Commission Vice-President Valdis Dombrovskis and Economic Affairs Commissioner Pierre Moscovici signals the support of one member of the so-called troika that has supervised Greece's financial rescue. The other members are the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund.

The statement urges Greece to "refrain from any roll back of measures and unilateral changes to the policies and structural reforms that would negatively impact fiscal targets, economic recovery or financial stability, as assessed by the institutions" of the troika.

The Eurogroup of eurozone finance ministers were to discuss the list in a conference call on Tuesday at about 13:00 GMT.

more


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 03, 2015, 10:08:16 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82zYpHccxss


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 08, 2015, 07:32:16 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr_6IupMzCg


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 09, 2015, 10:06:11 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nyGkbuWhnk


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 17, 2015, 01:51:23 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17fv5EhSbX8


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 22, 2015, 05:34:49 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALYR-NQFmHc


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 25, 2015, 11:20:23 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/25/world/europe/greece-says-it-will-present-eu-with-planned-overhauls-by-monday.html?_r=1
Greece Says It’ll Present E.U. With Planned Overhauls by Monday
3/24/15

BERLIN — Greece will present a detailed list of proposed overhauls to its eurozone partners by Monday, a government spokesman said, as Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras met supporters and leading government ministers on his first official visit to Europe’s economic powerhouse, Germany.

At 40, the always tieless Mr. Tsipras has cut an unusual figure among European leaders since being elected less than two months ago. After stopping his convoy en route to Angela Merkel’s chancellery on Monday to greet friendly demonstrators, on Tuesday he visited the stark memorial in central Berlin to the six million Jews killed in the Holocaust.

It is rare for visiting leaders to stop at the 2,711 blocks of stone that make up the memorial to Europe’s murdered Jews.

The visit to the memorial next to the Brandenburg Gate followed more than five hours of talks and dinner with Ms. Merkel on Monday. It also came after more meetings on Tuesday with the two leading Social Democrats in Ms. Merkel’s coalition as well as with opposition leftists sympathetic to Mr. Tsipras and his pleas for a new approach to Greece’s DEBT crisis.

A Greek government spokesman, Gavriil Sakellaridis, told Mega TV that a list of overhauls would “be done by Monday at the latest.”

There was no indication whether the list had been discussed in any detail with Ms. Merkel. Her spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said Monday’s talks had taken place “in a good and constructive atmosphere,” covering Greece’s situation, how the European Union works and bilateral cooperation.

At an evening news conference barely an hour into the talks, both leaders urged their compatriots to abandon stereotypes about each other’s countries. While guarded, they were clearly at pains to reduce the acrimony that has CLOUDED the new Greek government’s dealings with Germany and its other eurozone partners in recent weeks.

One issue that has flared up is that of German reparations for the Nazi crimes committed during the occupation of Greece in World War II. Tens of thousands of Greeks were killed, and an estimated 80,000 Greek Jews were deported to concentration camps. The Nazis also exacted a forced LOAN from Greece that was not repaid in full.

Mr. Tsipras raised the LOAN as a matter of what he called ethical and moral concern. But he emphasized that “today’s Germany has nothing to do with the Germany of the Third Reich, which cost so much bloodshed.”

The visit to the memorial was sandwiched between talks with Germany’s foreign and economy ministers, both Social Democratic leaders in Ms. Merkel’s coalition government of center-right and center-left parties. Mr. Tsipras also met with two leaders of the Left Party, which has voiced strong support for the new Greek prime minister.

Portrayed in popular German news media and by many conservative politicians as irresponsible or at best naïve, Mr. Tsipras was hailed by the Left Party leader, Katja Kipping, as “highly responsible.” He deserves support for efforts to alleviate the suffering of hungry and homeless Greeks, she said on German television Tuesday morning.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 31, 2015, 09:12:36 pm
Must listen!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9EgFIb_O7o


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 10, 2015, 03:40:09 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5phAGqb4bAA


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 22, 2015, 11:03:07 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka_Wi0cHxfE


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 30, 2015, 11:45:32 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n_ubdH4qiA


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 04, 2015, 10:03:26 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcpXViPimmc


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 06, 2015, 04:42:47 pm
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=50758#.VUqlgY7F9GY
INTERVIEW: UN adviser stresses 2015 critical to setting world on safer, more prosperous path

4 May 2015 – To say that 2015 is a big year for sustainable development may be an understatement given that, over the course of six months beginning in July, countries have the OPPORTUNITY to take decisions that will determine the global course of action to end poverty, promote prosperity, protect the environment and ADDRESS climate change.

“This year is a unique opportunity for our generation to set clear goals and clear pathways to a safer, better, more prosperous world,” says economist Jeffrey Sachs, who is Special Adviser to the United Nations Secretary-General on the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), a set of global anti-poverty TARGETS that were supposed to be achieved by 2015.

In an interview with the UN News Centre, the internationally renowned development expert explains why it is urgent for the world to change direction and embark on a more sustainable path, what he hopes countries will achieve during this critical year, and what it will take to truly end poverty – which he stresses is not just an economic challenge but a moral one. The interview has been edited for content and clarity.Governments have to achieve a new vision – that is the vision of sustainable development, which means combining economic development, social inclusion and environmental sustainability.

UN News Centre: The UN has dubbed 2015 the time for global action for people and the planet. Why is this year so crucial?

Jeffrey Sachs: This is the big year for sustainable development. It’s happened for various diplomatic reasons that everything’s converging in 2015. We have of course the adoption of the sustainable development goals (SDGs) in September 2015. That was a decision taken BACK in 2012 at the 20th anniversary of the Rio Earth Summit – that we would have SDGs. With the Millennium Development Goals ending, the new sustainable development goals will be adopted in September.

Then, because of the setbacks in Copenhagen way back in 2009 on the climate negotiations, a new timetable was set to reach a good, solid agreement, and it was decided that that would be December 2015 – same year, almost back-to-back with the sustainable development goals. So the world heads to COP21 – the 21st Conference of the Parties – in Paris in late November, early December.

Then countries said, well if we’re going to implement all of this, how are we going to paying for it? We need FINANCING for sustainable development. And a third high-level meeting was put on the agenda in Addis Ababa in July – the Conference on Financing for Development.

Well that’s an amazing line-up – July, September, December – that gives us a chance to change direction in the world to adopt sustainable development as a true operating principle for the planet. It’s urgent that we change direction and this year is a unique OPPORTUNITY for our generation to set clear goals and clear pathways to a safer, better, more prosperous world.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 16, 2015, 04:43:32 am
Billy Graham Daughter: The Rapture Is Coming

Anne Graham Lotz, the daughter of the Rev. Billy Graham, warns the Rapture is coming and will cause "mass chaos."

In a recent blog post on her website titled "Is God’s Judgment Coming?" Graham Lotz wrote God's "judgment is coming on America and on our world, and it's going to be ugly."

"I believe Jesus is soon to return to take all of His followers to Heaven with Him in what is referred to as the Rapture," she wrote. "While this will be deliverance for His people, can you imagine the impact on our nation, let alone the world, when suddenly every single authentic Christian disappears?

"Institutions will collapse. Banks will close. The Stock Market will plunge. Planes will fall out of the sky. Cars will crash on the road. Government in America at every level will disintegrate. Families will be torn apart. In the unprecedented turmoil, our nation will be vulnerable for our enemies to seize the moment and attack us. There will be mass chaos, confusion, fear, grief, despair, anger, threats, danger … judgment."

Graham Lotz advocates for Christians to pray and "cry out to God" from May 15-23, the nine-day period between the Day of the Ascension of Jesus and the Day of Pentecost.

Graham Lotz, 66, is the second daughter of Billy Graham, who turned 96 last November.

A recent poll found more than half of Americans think the Rapture is real, while another survey found that 27 percent of Christians think Jesus Christ will return to Earth by 2050.

Several groups, meanwhile, think the Rapture is real and will take place soon.

Recent reports claiming Christianity is on the decline are false, according to a professor and members of the faith.

"There's a story some people want to report — that religion is on life support — but it's just not true," said Baylor University professor Byron Johnson, the founding director of the Institute for Studies of Religion.

Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/US/billy-graham-daughter-rapture-coming/2015/05/14/id/644749/#ixzz3aIF08dbW


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 16, 2015, 11:32:45 am
The sad part about all this is that the Grahams WILL be left behind - I wonder what "excuse" they will give after the rapture happens?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 16, 2015, 11:51:11 am
April 10—Speakers: Pastor Noah Hutchings

Will the Church Go Through the Tribulation


https://www.swrc.com/broadcasts-april-2015.html


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 16, 2015, 01:42:48 pm
April 10—Speakers: Pastor Noah Hutchings

Will the Church Go Through the Tribulation


https://www.swrc.com/broadcasts-april-2015.html

James Knox said this in a recent sermon(about the idea of the church going through the tribulation) - "It is STUPID!".

I couldn't agree more.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 18, 2015, 06:17:18 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1-r9XQuxJ8


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 21, 2015, 11:04:38 pm
http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/2015/May21/213.html
5/21/15
Daniel's “Covenant With Many” – Waiting To Be Implemented?

The Saudi peace initiative first saw light some 13 years ago, and apparently there are still many key figures in the Arab world who would like to see it revived.

"Now that Prime Minister (Benjamin) Netanyahu has formed his new government, I call on him to say yes to the Saudi peace initiative. It's alive and well and didn't disappear with the regime change in Saudi Arabia," says Dr. Anwar Eshki, the director of the Jeddah-based Middle East Institute for Strategic Studies.

"King Salman and his senior advisers support it. It's time for Israel to accept it too. There is no alternative peace plan."

A former military general who has also filled various key roles in the Riyadh administration in the past, Eshki, 72, is believed to have very close ties with the Saudi royal family; and he had no qualms about giving an interview to an Israeli newspaper, noting: "The issue is an important one, and we need to convey the message to Netanyahu, the cabinet ministers and the Israeli public that there is a peace plan awaiting their approval."

Eshki gave an exclusive interview to Ynet's sister publication, Yedioth Ahronoth, in Qatar, where he was attending the Doha Forum's economic conference over the weekend.

"If Israel accepts the peace plan and makes a commitment to implement it, 22 Arab states and another 20 Muslim counties will commit to normalizing relations with you," Eshki says. "You need to internalize the fact that we want coexistence between the Arab states and Israel."

And Eshki also had a message for the skeptics who lack faith in his vision: "Saudi Arabia always fulfills the commitments it takes on," he says. "And you will see, when the time comes for normalization, we and another 22 Arab states will establish diplomatic relations with Israel, including commercial cooperation and cultural ties."

According to the Saudi initiative, the brainchild in 2002 of then-crown prince Abdullah, the Israeli-Arab conflict will come to an end in return for an Israeli undertaking to withdraw to the pre-Six-Day War 1967 borders.

Despite being adopted unanimously at the Arab League Summit in Beirut in 2002, the plan, now known as the Arab Peace Initiative, has yet to elicit an official Israeli response. The reason: It includes the division of Jerusalem and the right of return for Palestinian refugees, both of which spark opposition among government officials in Jerusalem.

But now, with a new government in Israel and the crowning of King Salman in January, there are those who believe that it's time to revive the initiative.

"People say that Netanyahu has put together a government of extremists," Eshki says. "That doesn't bother me. On the contrary, perhaps it's best for achieving peace – because if Netanyahu and his ministers accept the plan, there'll be no one to stand in their way."

If Netanyahu does decide to adopt the initiative, Eshki adds, he must do so officially – in an address at the UN or in Jerusalem, for example.

Eshki is well aware of the Israeli reservations. "The peace plan provides for the evacuation of the settlements and their resettling by Palestinians; but there could be land exchanges, in keeping with security requirements and mutual understandings," he says. "And the Palestinians who choose not to return will get financial compensation."

Eshki believes that if Israel were to give a thumbs-up to the initiative in principle, talks over "the problematic issues" would then go ahead under the patronage of Saudi Arabia, the US, Egypt and Jordan.

"The sides, including Israel, will determine where the negotiations will be conducted," he says, adding that the initiative constitutes the "most suitable" political solution because it is based on UN resolutions.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 25, 2015, 05:51:24 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG3FQzeHAo4


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 28, 2015, 04:29:51 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZQmPybLxpo


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 30, 2015, 10:01:46 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpMV5F6vA5U


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 30, 2015, 03:51:47 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpMV5F6vA5U


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 08, 2015, 06:39:28 pm
http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=33411
SCOWLING, DEFIANT GREEK MYSTERY MAN ALEXIS TSIPRAS STARES DOWN HIS OPPONENTS
Geoffrey Grider | June 3, 2015 | 15 Comments

FACED WITH ONE OF THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL MEETINGS OF HIS YOUNG TENURE AS PRIME MINISTER, GREECE’S ALEXIS TSIPRAS ON WEDNESDAY RESORTED TO THE SAME TRAIT THAT BROUGHT HIS HARD-LEFT GOVERNMENT TO POWER: DEFIANCE.

“And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.” Daniel 11:2 (KJV)

Alexis Tsipras watchers continue to be fascinated with the rising star of Greek politics as he faces the biggest hurdle of his young administration. Greece, awash in debt and out of time, is facing not only bankruptcy but removal from the EU. Is Alexis Tsipras worried? Not at all. In fact, he’s angry.

As he prepared to leave Athens for a meeting with Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president, Mr Tsipras brushed aside a new — and possibly final — bailout offer hammered out by his country’s creditors after an emergency meeting of the EU’s most powerful leaders on Monday night.

Instead, he promised to force his adversaries to “accede to reality”, saying: “I am going to discuss the proposal of the Greek government. I am confident that the political leadership of Europe will do what needs to be done.” source

Tsipras, whom you’ll remember, has some powerful friends for someone so new to politics. From meeting with Pope Francis to discuss a peace treaty between Israel and the Palestinians, counting New World Order financier George Soros as a business partner, to closed door meetings with high-level Russian officials discussing the capabilities of a strategic cooperation, intrigue is it an all time high.

Add to all this he refused to take his oath of office on the Bible, is an avowed atheist, and talks about “ushering in global peace”, love, harmony and social justice. and it’s enough to make you wonder who he really is. What is his real agenda, and why are Bible prophecy watchers so interested in everything he says and does?

Stay tuned…


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 08, 2015, 06:46:21 pm
http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=33445
ISIS IS A PREVIEW OF THE WORLD DURING THE TIME OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION (VIDEO)
Geoffrey Grider | June 8, 2015 | 22 Comments

WE ARE LOOKING THROUGH THE GLASS OF THE WINDOW OF PROPHECY AND LITERALLY WATCHING THE FORCES OF THE TRIBULATION RISING TO LIFE.

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Revelation 20:4 (KJV)

We live in the most technologically-advanced civilization in world history. There is an app for everything, social media is how we connect, and computers and the human body are in the processing of merging. Because of these advances, many have said and are saying that Bible prophecy cannot be true because in the book of Revelation it shows a decidedly low-tech view of the world.

Armies riding on horseback, swords are the main weapons, and people being beheaded is how Revelation says it’s going to happen. That would be a giant leap backward, right? Maybe not. Perhaps we are already heading in that direction right now.

The rise of ISIS is not only a regional issue but it is a global issue fraught with spiritual and prophetical implications as well. Seemingly overnight, ISIS, a barbaric killing force of biblical proportions has been raised up and is terrorizing the Middle East with no foreseeable end in sight. Even months of United States led air strikes has done nothing to slow their ascent. But if you have ever read the Old Testament, then you know exactly who ISIS is and where they came from. The world is in a transition period right now., and God is raising up the forces of the end times.

At this very moment, we are in the closing hours of what the Bible calls the Age of Grace, otherwise known as the Church Age. This period of time will end in an event known as the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church. The Rapture is not the Second Coming, those two events are separated by the Great Tribulation which Jeremiah calls the “time of Jacob’s trouble”. But we are so close to that time that we are experiencing an overlap in dispensations. We are looking through the glass of the window of prophecy and literally watching the forces of the Tribulation rising to life.

I believe that ISIS will form the nucleus of the army of the Antichrist, and I also believe that there will be a merger between Islam and the Vatican. The Antichrist has a partner known as the False Prophet, a religious figure that creates the One World Religion and directs worship to the Antichrist. Pope Francis, for reasons stated here, is an excellent candidate for the role of the False Prophet.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 09, 2015, 05:20:34 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEj4aAEzd0s


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 11, 2015, 11:53:21 am
Revelation 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7  Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


I have a question - during this ToJT period, why do they call it the everlasting gospel? I don't understand, b/c during this time period, it's not being saved by faith alone, but noone during this period can take the mark of the beast in addition.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Christian40 on June 12, 2015, 04:16:21 am
Revelation 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7  Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


I have a question - during this ToJT period, why do they call it the everlasting gospel? I don't understand, b/c during this time period, it's not being saved by faith alone, but no one during this period can take the mark of the beast in addition.

The first verse i thought of was this: Psalm 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. The word "everlasting" occurs 91 times in the KJB. It is the angel that has "the everlasting gospel" not a man, the angel preaches to people so why not call it the "everlasting gospel" ?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 20, 2015, 01:39:21 pm
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-19/bank-holiday-preparations-begin-greece-lines-form-athens-atms
6/19/15
"Bank Holiday" Preparations Begin In Greece, Lines Form At Athens ATMs

The writing has been on the wall for quite sometime.

Deposit flight from Greece's ailing banking sector has been running north of €500 million per day this week as the threat of capital controls casts a pall over the Greek government's efforts to reassure the public and head off a terminal bank run.

Sparking a panic has been the most powerful tool at the troika's disposal to bring PM Alexis Tsipras to the negotiating table and force Syriza to either concede to pension cuts and a VAT hike or risk social and political upheaval in the face of dark ATMs and public protests - we said this first in February and finally even the Greek government realized just what game Europe is playing.

Until now, Greeks had taken the barrage of headlines in stride with a stoic fortitude that would impress Marcus Aurelius but now, it appears as though the 'institutions' might have finally broken their spirits.

Earlier today, the ECB agreed to lift the ELA cap by just €1.8 billion, far less than Greek banking officials had requested and probably just barely enough to cover Friday's withdrawals. And so, as Europe's "Lehman Weekend" may finally be kicking off, the ATM lines are officially forming as Greeks prepare to be 'Cyprus'd' and as the country stares into "template" oblivion.

more


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on July 03, 2015, 09:19:34 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENi93Kz3QlM


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 22, 2015, 11:13:18 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0fn1FAuX_E


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 27, 2015, 12:02:17 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd6zAwD509I


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 03, 2015, 01:15:30 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CjGuYb023Q


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 11, 2015, 12:52:26 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa586c01JXI


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on August 12, 2015, 10:57:53 am
The Bible Believer’s Guide To Understanding The Differences Between The Rapture And The Second Coming

The day of Christ, the Rapture is to be looked forward to, the Day of the Lord, the Second Coming, is to be greatly feared.

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

There is an old adage that says “things that are different are not the same”. As Christians, we have a nasty tendency to read everything from Matthew to Revelation and try to apply it all to the Church. This will not work, because all the New Testament is not written to the Christian Church. The Church is only one part of it. Much of the New Testament is written to the Jews of that time, and to the Jews that will be living during the time of Jacob’s Trouble, otherwise known as the Great Tribulation. And some of it is written to the unbelieving Gentiles. This is why Paul commands Timothy to teach people how to “rightly divide” their Bibles to know which of the three groups God is speaking to at any given time.

So we see many Christian churches today, who do not rightly divide their Bibles, are teaching their people that there is no difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming. They say that these are one and the same event. But we will show you conclusively in this article that, because of the manifold differences between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, that it is impossible for them to be the same event.

#1: The Rapture is the ‘blessed hope’ while the Second Coming is a Day to be greatly feared.

We start with this one first because it is the one difference most overlooked in a study of the differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming. In Titus 2:13, talking about the Rapture, Paul calls it “the Blessed Hope”, a day of great comfort and joy. But in Amos 5:18, talking about the Day of the Lord, which is in fact the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, God tells us that it is a day of “great woe”, and greatly to be feared! Now, how can the Rapture and the Second Coming possibly be the same? Read Joel 3 for more on the ferocity and woefulness of the Second Coming. Paul calls the Rapture of the Church the “day of Christ”. The Second Coming is called the “day of the Lord”. The day of Christ is to be looked forward to, the Day of the Lord to be feared. If you are someone who believes the Bible, then I could stop this article right here as I have established my case well beyond the shadow of any doubt, reasonable or otherwise. But for  you who are ” fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken” then we have added another 9 rock-solid reasons why the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ cannot be the same event.

    “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 (KJV) – The Rapture
    “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.” 2 Thessalonians 2:2 (KJV) – The Rapture
    “Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.” Amos 5:18 (KJV) – The Second Coming
    “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.” Isaiah 13:9 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#2: In the Rapture, Jesus comes for his Church, at His Second Coming He brings the Church with Him.

Paul teaches over and over again that at the Rapture, the Church is taken up and out from off the face of the Earth. But at the Second Coming, Jesus returns with His saints. Another fatal difference when trying to reconcile the two events as one. The first it’s a “going up”, and in the second it’s a “coming down”.

    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 (KJV) – The Rapture
    “And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” Revelation 19:24 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#3: In the Rapture, the Church is taken to Heaven, at the Second Coming Jesus sets up earthly rule.

In both John and Paul’s writings, the promise of a “heavenly home” awaits for the born again Christian. We call this the Kingdom of God. But in the Second Coming, a thousand year kingdom is established on Earth, known as the Kingdom of Heaven. Christians are never promised an earthly home, but an heavenly one. The Jews and Tribulation saints were never promised that, they get instead a home on the Earth.

    “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” John 14:2,3 (KJV) – The Rapture
    “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Revelation 20:4 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#4: The Rapture happens before the Antichrist and the Tribulation, while the Second Coming happens after both.

Paul stresses repeatedly that one of the incredible benefits of being taken out in the Rapture is that you get to miss the entire wrath of the Great Tribulation. But Matthew tells us that the Second Coming is “after the Tribulation of those days”. Well, which is it? If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event, then these verses represent an irreconcilable difference. But there is not a conflict because, obviously, they are two separate and distinct events.

    “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,” 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV) – The Rapture
    “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV) – The Rapture
    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Matthew 24:29,39 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#5: In the Rapture, only the born again Church sees the Lord come for them, at the Second Coming the whole world witnesses it.

Mockers of the doctrine of the Pretribulation Rapture like to call it a “secret” Rapture, like that is somehow an insult to people who believe it. The apostle Paul, who the Holy Spirit used to write that doctrine, also viewed it as a secret, he called it a “mystery”. In the Rapture, only the redeemed hear the Shout of the Lord and He calls us up to be with Him in the air. At the Second Coming, Jesus appears in JUDGMENT to the whole world.

    “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) – The Rapture
    “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Revelation 1:7 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#6: In the Rapture, no angels are sent to gather the Church. At the Second Coming, angels do all the gathering for judgment.

Paul says that it is Jesus Himself who comes to gather His Church up and out of here. We hear His Shout, and “in the twinkling of an eye” we are gone. No angels mentioned anywhere. Compare this with His Second Coming where only angels are sent to gather God’s elect, the Jewish remnant who made it through the Tribulation. Again, major difference.

    “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) – The Rapture
    “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:30,31 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#7: The Judgment Seat of Christ follows the Rapture while the Judgment of Nations follows the Second Coming.

Immediately after the Rapture of the Church, Paul says that we will be appearing before the Judgment Seat of Christ. This is not a judgment on sin, which was taken care of at Calvary, it is a judgement on the works we did or did not do for Jesus Christ after we got saved. But immediately after the Second Coming, the judgment that takes place is a public judgment, not of individuals, but of the nations.

    “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” 2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV) – The Rapture
    “Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:44-46 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#8: Famine, war and pestilence follow the Rapture while 1,000 years of world peace follows the Second Coming.

Again, the differences here could not be more apparent. After the Rapture, a time of unbelievable suffering is ushered in, the time of Jacob’s Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). But after the Second Coming, a 1,000 reign of the Lord Jesus Christ in Jerusalem brings a world peace so amazing that even poisonous animals are no longer dangerous. The verse in Matthew 24 where the apostles ask Jesus about the “sign of thy coming” is a direct reference to the Second Coming. The doctrine of the Rapture was unknown to them at this time and would not be revealed until Paul, 30 years from the writing of Matthew.

    “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.” Matthew 24:3,6-8 (KJV)
    “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the ****atrice’ den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.” Isaiah 11:6-10 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#9: No one in the bible knew of the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church until it was revealed by the Lord to Paul.

This is one of the greatest proof-texts for why the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming cannot be the same event. Paul, in Corinthians 15, is the very first to tell us of the Rapture of the Church, and lets us know that it is a “mystery” revealed by God to him alone which he then was charged with teaching the Church. Nearly every bible chronology places the date of the writing of Matthew at around 35 AD, and the writing of Corinthians at around 66 AD.

day-of-the-LORD-now-end-begins-bible-study-prophecy

Why is this important? Because if no one knew of the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church until Paul, then Matthew 24 and 25 cannot be, under any circumstances, referring to the Church and the Rapture because no one knew of any Rapture. In fact, at the time of Matthew the Church itself was not even formed. If Matthew knew and wrote about the Rapture of the Church, then Paul was lying when he said it was a MYSTERY that he was revealing for the first time in Corinthians.

    “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 (KJV) – The Rapture

#10: At the Rapture, believers are given a glorified body, at the Second Coming they remain in earthly bodies as they enter the Millennial Kingdom.

At the Rapture of the Church, great personal and physical change takes place for the believer. The Bible says that the born again believer receives a new body that is fashioned just like the “glorious body” that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself was given at His Resurrection. Wow, imagine that! How exciting for the believer to be able to look forward to that day. But at the Second Coming, as Jesus sets up His earthly government from Jerusalem, the people who made it through the Tribulation have no special bodies, and it is possible for them to die. Christians who get glorified bodies can never die.

    “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.” Philippians 3:20,21 (KJV) – The Rapture
    “But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.” Isaiah 65:17-21 (KJV) – The Second Coming

If you are not only a Bible believer but also intellectually honest, then you must admit that we have proved completely that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are two very different events with two very different results. In this article we have given 10 reasons as to why, but could easily provide another 20 examples of the differences between the two events.

Things that are different cannot be the same. Case closed.

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=32728


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 12, 2015, 12:55:31 pm
I hope I'm not trying to switch gears here, but...

Mark 13:19  For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Look at the word BEGINNING in particular in this verse - if anything, this verse itself just completely debunks the gap theory heresy. If there really was a "previous" earth runned by Lucifer, fallen angels, and a "pre-Adamic" race of men prior to Genesis 1:2, but en yet Jesus Christ himself says the Time of Jacob's Trouble will be like NO TIME OTHER(meaning everything we've seen, whether Nazi Germany Soviet Union or whatever, were PEANUTS compared). Yes, meaning there was NO catastrophic time period prior to Genesis 1:2(which somehow resulted in "Lucifer's flood").

OK - pt I'm trying to make here is that you see how much confusion the gap theory has caused? And ultimately, has torn down the foundations of other very important doctrines like THE DIFFERENCES b/w the Rapture and the 2nd Coming.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 14, 2015, 04:58:06 pm
Seriously - "professing" Christians nowdays really think Alice Cooper is a born-again Christian(!). I mean they'll attack very important doctrines like repentance, and living a life of obedience and holiness. But en yet they defend these devils like Cooper?

Using this logic - then Barack Obama must be a Christian, b/c he professes to be one too. ::)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6xSksMSjxk


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 02, 2015, 12:39:18 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37B8LPwpFes


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 09, 2015, 03:45:17 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA_dDLtahwU


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 18, 2015, 09:20:06 am
Sam Adams preached this message, and Brian Moonan compiled the images and music on it. I know we have our issues with Adams, but nonetheless Part 1 of this preaching is actually quite good and informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53w9pv71LF4


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 28, 2015, 01:56:58 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3lQdUEk6os


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 06, 2015, 12:18:50 pm
http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=36227
AS AMERICA SLEEPS, THE DARK DAYS RONALD REAGAN WARNED US ABOUT HAVE ARRIVED
Geoffrey Grider | October 5, 2015 | 32 Comments

THESE ARE THE DAYS RONALD REAGAN WARNED US WOULD COME IF WE DID NOT REMAIN VIGILANT. WE HAVEN’T BEEN, AND THEY ARE HERE.

“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.” – Ronald Reagan, 40th American President.

The first time I ever voted was for Ronald Reagan in 1980. I was a conservative because my parents were, but Ronald Reagan made me a legitimate conservative in my own right. Ronald Reagan was an imperfect candidate, but he had something that so few politicians have any more. He loved America and the American way of life with all his heart, and he made you love it, too.

(http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/ronald-reagan-freedom-speech-warned-america-we-didnt-listen.jpg)

In 2016, the Democrat front-runner for president, Bernie Sanders, is an out-of-the-closet Socialist who makes no bones about his political ideology. None at all. Unlike Barack Obama, who pretended to be Christian, American and patriotic, Bernie Sanders has no false front of any kind. You vote for him and he will fully recast America as a third-world Socialist nation. Everywhere he goes, he is greeted by screaming throngs of Obamaphone groupies who are salivating at the prospect of him being the next occupier of the Oval Office. I watch this happening on the news and ask myself “what happened to my America?” It’s gone.

THE TIMES WHERE OUR FREEDOMS WOULD BE TAKEN AWAY HAVE ARRIVED. THESE ARE THE DAYS RONALD REAGAN WARNED US WOULD COME IF WE DID NOT REMAIN VIGILANT. WE HAVEN’T BEEN, AND THEY ARE HERE.

I was talking with my good friend and brother in the Lord Dave Gervins today, and we spent nearly an hour on the phone discussing end times things. We both came to the same conclusion that there is a spirit that has settled down on America, an evil spirit, and it has blinded the eyes and minds of our citizens. As a nation, we are watching the transition to a completely pagan, Godless society with no values, no morals, no Bible, no Ten Commandments, and no Jesus Christ anywhere to be seen.

America uses taxpayer dollars to fund the murder of millions of it’s most helpless citizens every year. The Center for Medical Progress comes along with a series of videos exposing the atrocities of Planned Parenthood, and the government wants to investigate them, and not Planned Parenthood. 12 citizens were slaughtered just last week for being Christians, and our president uses it for stump speech on gun control, uttering not a single word about them being targeted for death because of their faith. But on February 13, 2015, talking about 3 Muslims who were killed, Obama had this to say:

“No one in the United States of America should ever be targeted because of who they are, what they look like, or how they worship,” spoken by Barack Obama in defense of Muslims.” source

Right now, America’s leaders are sitting listlessly on the sidelines, watching Russia dominate the narrative in the Middle East. While Putin takes charge, America sits in the corner like a pusillanimous, effeminate cipher with no mission, no direction, no leadership and no hope. And the American people just sit back and watch it all unravel, no protests in the streets, no marches on Washington, nothing. The New World Order powers that actually control this nation know that their time has arrived. They know that they can act with impunity and there will be no reprisals.

https://youtu.be/P3hY1eagq88

Because of that, the persecution of Christians in this country are well underway. Kim Davis was thrown in jail for refusing to issue gay marriage licences, Christian bakers Aaron and Melissa Klein were fined $135,000.00 for refusing to make a queer “wedding” cake, a US Marine court-martialed for having a Bible verse on her computer, and Barronelle Stutzman was driven from her flower shop business for refusing to do flower arrangement for a same-sex “wedding”. I could give you 50 more examples right now of people, American citizens, who are being persecuted because they are Christians and nothing else.

“…but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.” Luke 22:53 (KJV)

Right now, while you read this, American citizen and Christian pastor Saeed Abedini and 3 others are rotting in an Iranian prison because no one in Washington cares one bit about their freedom. Their release was never part of any of the negotiations of Obama’s Iranian Nuclear Deal, and it’s highly likely that Saeed will be executed for his faith. But ask Obama to spend $5 billion dollars and release 5 Taliban terrorists in Gitmo to welcome US Army traitor and deserter Bowie Bergdahl to the White House? Sure! Happy to do it. That’s a deal he can get behind.

Our national nightmare is not that anti-American Marxists have taken over the White House. No, our national nightmare is that anti-American Marxists have taken over and we, the American people, lack the collective resolve to throw them out. We have forgotten what we stand for, we have forgotten our manifest destiny, we have forgotten our American exceptionalism, and we have fallen asleep at the wheel. Worst of all, we have abandoned God, and He has forgotten us. We have been left to the desires of our wicked hearts, and have been given the king that we deserve. Obama is our judgment and we refuse to repent. The handwriting is writ large on the wall of our nation.

“And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.” Daniel 5:25 (KJV)

 I will close with these words from our greatest president:

“Admittedly, there’s a risk in any course we follow other than this, but every lesson of history tells us that the greater risk lies in appeasement, and this is the specter our well-meaning liberal friends refuse to face—that their policy of accommodation is appeasement, and it gives no choice between peace and war, only between fight or surrender. If we continue to accommodate, continue to back and retreat, eventually we have to face the final demand—the ultimatum. And what then—when Nikita Khrushchev has told his people he knows what our answer will be? He has told them that we’re retreating under the pressure of the Cold War, and someday when the time comes to deliver the final ultimatum, our surrender will be voluntary, because by that time we will have been weakened from within spiritually, morally, and economically. He believes this because from our side he’s heard voices pleading for “peace at any price” or “better Red than dead,” or as one commentator put it, he’d rather “live on his knees than die on his feet.” And therein lies the road to war, because those voices don’t speak for the rest of us.

You and I know and do not believe that life is so dear and peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery. If nothing in life is worth dying for, when did this begin—just in the face of this enemy? Or should Moses have told the children of Israel to live in slavery under the pharaohs? Should Christ have refused the cross? Should the patriots at Concord Bridge have thrown down their guns and refused to fire the shot heard ’round the world? The martyrs of history were not fools, and our honored dead who gave their lives to stop the advance of the Nazis didn’t die in vain. Where, then, is the road to peace? Well it’s a simple answer after all.

You and I have the courage to say to our enemies, “There is a price we will not pay.” “There is a point beyond which they must not advance.” And this—this is the meaning in the phrase of Barry Goldwater’s “peace through strength.” Winston Churchill said, “The destiny of man is not measured by material computations. When great forces are on the move in the world, we learn we’re spirits—not animals.” And he said, “There’s something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty.”

You and I have a rendezvous with destiny.

We’ll preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we’ll sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness.“


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 05, 2015, 01:15:51 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPU4yC_CTcg


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 11, 2015, 09:21:55 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MatbADrWavU


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 15, 2015, 12:26:52 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXC65YxUIoo


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 15, 2015, 07:38:54 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6clmvWi1G4


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 21, 2015, 12:01:23 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IcoPnq6H74


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 25, 2015, 09:02:35 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz2UR3BJb5M


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 28, 2015, 11:29:36 am
http://news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-increased-resolve-un-climate-talks-071540208.html
11/27/15
After Paris attacks, increased resolve for UN climate talks

PARIS (AP) — Still gripped by shock and grief, Paris will play host to a long-awaited U.N. climate conference under tragic circumstances that none could have foreseen.

But delegates to the two-week talks starting Monday insist they won't let the Nov. 13 attacks that killed 130 people in the French capital distract them from the task at hand: crafting a landmark deal to fight global warming.

If anything, some say, the bloodshed could make countries more determined to reach a deal to address a problem that's widely seen as a factor that contributes to conflict.

"There may be even more awareness of how important it is to address climate change, given the impact of climate change on the stability of countries," said Dutch climate envoy Michel Rentenaar.

The French organizers say more than 140 leaders including presidents Barack Obama of the U.S., Vladimir Putin of Russia and Xi Jinping of China have confirmed they're attending the start of the conference.

The stepped-up security measures in Paris — a state of emergency throughout France has been extended for three months — mean that shuttling them around the city will be a major logistics challenge.

Citing security concerns, French authorities have stopped several events that were scheduled to take place outside the conference center, including a big march that environmentalists had planned for Sunday.

The negotiations themselves, however, are set to go ahead as planned amid tight security in the hermetically sealed conference center in Le Bourget, just north of Paris.

Seyni Nafo, the spokesman for the African Group of countries in the climate talks, said "the main variable" is whether French President Francois Hollande can find the time and energy to devote himself fully to the climate talks, given his focus on terrorism and security.

"Other than this I suspect the talks will remain mostly on course," Nafo said.

A top French official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not allowed to discuss the issue publicly, said Hollande "remains totally committed to this event and we are now conciliating it with an extraordinarily busy schedule."

Hollande notably maintained all his climate-related appointments last week, including a meeting with some African leaders on Tuesday and a speech to French farmers on Thursday.

This week, he was due to attend several climate-related events despite trips to Washington and Moscow: a France-Oceania summit on Thursday, a meeting with non-governmental groups following the climate negotiations on Saturday, and meetings with U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and President Xi on Sunday.

"What powerful rebuke to the terrorists it will be when the world stands as one and shows that we will not be deterred from building a better future for our children," Obama said on Tuesday, with Hollande at his side.

The goal of the Paris conference is for governments to adopt a deal that for the first time would require all countries to take action to fight climate change.

Countries on the front line, such as small island states that could vanish amid rising seas, were worried that the Paris attacks would become a distraction for Western countries in particular. However, they've been reassured by the number of leaders, including Obama, who quickly reaffirmed their plans to attend the U.N. conference, said Jeffrey Waheed, the Maldives' deputy permanent secretary to the United Nations.

"The fact that this is on the forefront of everyone's mind is a positive sign," Waheed said. "World leaders are used to handling multiple issues. And this is an issue of peace and security in the long term."

Researchers and military officials have long stressed the link between climate change and security. The Pentagon noted in a report last year that climate impacts could exacerbate challenges to stability such as infectious diseases and poverty.

Some researchers have even drawn a connection between climate change and the Syrian conflict, saying an extended drought led to social unrest that triggered an uprising against authoritarian President Bashar Assad. The ensuing civil war has forced millions of Syrians to flee the country and fueled the rise of extremist groups like the Islamic State, which claimed responsibility for the gun and bomb massacres in Paris.

With demonstrations in Paris banned, climate activists are planning over 2,000 events across 150 countries this weekend, demanding that negotiators pave the way for a transition from fossil fuels to renewable sources of energy like wind and solar power.

A limited number of activists accredited to the conference will be urging negotiators in the hallways to look beyond their short-term national interests and come together for a common plan for the planet's future.

"Since the climate summit will take place in an atmosphere of war," said Mohamed Adow of Christian Aid, "we hope world leaders will use it to show the world what peaceful global cooperation looks like to protect our shared humanity."


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 30, 2015, 11:59:17 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXf4wY-AzMU


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on December 01, 2015, 06:03:11 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3d8baboUMo


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on December 04, 2015, 08:11:37 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq47etXSSrg


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on December 30, 2015, 09:00:20 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zHX2qkQvjw


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on December 30, 2015, 08:36:51 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng4Pw8KeLx4


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 07, 2016, 03:36:35 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORUl5ahmMgY


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 08, 2016, 10:11:05 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnEmLjw-eb0


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 10, 2016, 11:37:43 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jPVDlCgjVs


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 15, 2016, 07:57:33 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fytA1Pyaj1A


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 16, 2016, 02:23:32 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CRUUqjv0a4


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 20, 2016, 10:43:42 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYMm1ctN6s4


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 21, 2016, 06:37:43 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gojity4v5Iw


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 03, 2016, 02:14:57 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M6vDYZTtSk


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 05, 2016, 09:53:07 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4BDdoibFM8


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 18, 2016, 09:56:34 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrAGXQQD-hg


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 23, 2016, 07:45:09 pm
10 More Amazing Proofs For The Pretribulation Rapture Of The Church Of Jesus Christ

Matthew 24:29-31 is the hands down favorite passage of Pretrib Rapture deniers, yet contained in those passages is the very proof that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming are two separate events. Matthew paints a picture of stark terror and physical judgments falling upon the Earth, and then people shall see the 'Son of man' coming down from Heaven. Paul on the other hand, talks about none of these things being connected with the Rapture of the Church. Furthermore, Paul says in the Rapture that Jesus comes for us personally and pulls us up into the clouds with Him, but Matthew says Jesus sends His angels for His elect at the Second Coming.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the hands down favorite passage of Pretribulation Rapture deniers, yet contained in those passages is the very proof that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming are two separate events

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

The Bible gives Christians in the Church Age a clear command to study the word of God. Not only that, we are also commanded to ‘rightly divide’ what we read there. There are 3 groups in the Bible that God can be talking to any any given time, they are not the same. First you have the Jews and Israel as one group, the redeemed Church as the second group, and the unsaved gentiles which make up the rest of the world population at any given time.

Today we present for your consideration a second installment of our Bible Believers Guide To Understanding The Differences Between The Rapture And The Second Coming. Enjoy!
#1. The 24 elders are wearing their crowns before the start of the time of Jacob’s trouble

Paul says in 2 Timothy that believers will receive crowns in ‘that day’ that takes place at the time of the Rapture of the Church. John, in Revelation 4, is taken up in type in the Rapture and when he gets there he witnesses elders with crowns 2 chapters before the start of the time of Jacob’s trouble in Revelation 6.

    “Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.” 2 Timothy 4:8 (KJV)
    “And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.” Revelation 4:4 (KJV)

#2. The Bible doesn’t mention a resurrection at the Second Coming but it does for the Rapture

In Revelation 19:11-21, we clearly see the Second Coming of Jesus Christ at the Battle of Armageddon. Church saints mount up on white horses and return with Him. Nowhere in the passage does it mention a resurrection will take place at this time, in stark contrast to the resurrection of Church saints Paul talks about in 1 Thessalonians 4.

    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 (KJV)

#3. Matthew 24 says at the Second Coming the world will mourn, but Paul says at the Rapture it’s a time of rejoicing

Matthew 24:29-31 is the hands down favorite passage of Pretrib Rapture deniers, yet contained in those passages is the very proof that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming are two separate events. Matthew paints a picture of stark terror and physical judgments falling upon the Earth, and then people shall see the ‘Son of man’ coming down from Heaven. Paul on the other hand, talks about none of these things being connected with the Rapture of the Church. Furthermore, Paul says in the Rapture that Jesus comes for us personally and pulls us up into the clouds with Him, but Matthew says Jesus sends His angels for His elect at the Second Coming.

    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) – Second Coming
    “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 (KJV) – The Pretribulation Rapture

#4. The very name given to the time of great tribulation is a direct reference to national Israel and the Jews

In Matthew 24, Jesus says that there will be a time of ‘great tribulation’, but He does not call it so. The actual name for this 7 year period of time is found in Jeremiah 30, where the prophet tells us clearly who this time of trial and testing is for. It’s for Israel. Jacob’s name was changed from Jacob, his name when he was lost and in rebellion to God, to Israel, the name God gave him after he ‘wrestled with God’ and got right. The Bible says that after the physical regathering of Israel, which took place in 1948, the Jews and Israel would be in the land but far from God in their hearts and minds. This is the exact condition we see today in places like Tel Aviv, which is the Sodomite capital of the world.

    “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.” Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)

#5. At the time of the Second Coming, Jesus returns from a wedding

Luke says that when Jesus returns for His people Israel at the Second Coming, He has already been to a wedding. Paul tells us that after the Rapture of the Church we meet the Lord for the great Marriage of the Lamb wedding supper. This event has nothing to do with Israel and is for the Church only. At the Second Coming this event has already taken place.

    “Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.” Luke 12:35-40 (KJV) – Second Coming
    “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV) – The Pretribulation Rapture
    “And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.” Revelation 19:9 (KJV)

#6. The two openings of the door in Heaven

In the book of Revelation, Heaven is opened two times, and both of them are connected with the Church. In the first one, John, who is a type of the Church, is taken up to Heaven in a type of the Rapture. The second time occurs in Revelation 19 where the redeemed saints already in Heaven mount up on white horses and return with Jesus at the Second Coming.

    “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” Revelation 4:1 (KJV)
    “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” Revelation 19:11 (KJV)

#7. The day of the Rapture of the Church is unknown while the day the Lord returns at the Second Coming is mentioned specifically

Nowhere in Paul’s writings does he mention the date that the Rapture of the Church will take place. He gives us time clues in 2 Thessalonians, but no actual day. John, on the other hand, tells us in Revelation precisely when the Day of the Lord will occur. He says that the Second Coming happens 1,260 days (three and a half years) after the Jews flee to the Red Rock City of Selah Petra to hide from the Antichrist.

    “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:2,3 (KJV) – The Pretribulation Rapture
    “And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” Revelation 12:6 (KJV) – Second Coming

#8. The Lord returns to the Earth with His Church not for His Church

Jude talks about Enoch who is a type of a Christian living in the days before the Law of Moses. Enoch walks with God and then one day God takes him up and out of here in a type of the Rapture. Enoch was not Jewish and had no connection to Israel of any kind. That same Enoch prophesied that at the Second Coming, Jesus Christ will return with His redeemed saints already in tow.

    “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,” Jude 1:14 (KJV)

#9. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb happens in Heaven before the Second Coming

A spectacular event happens in Heaven right before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ at the Battle of Armageddon, the great Wedding Supper of Jesus and his Bride, the blood-washed redeemed Church. You will take careful note that if the Wedding Supper happens before the Second Coming, then it must be that the Church is already up in Heaven with Jesus. Where do we go on our ‘honeymoon’? We take a Joy ride on white horse and return to the Earth in the triumphal Second Coming. Revelation 19:11 starts the ‘honeymoon’ in amazing fashion! These passages alone show proof positive that the Church is already in heaven prior to the Second Coming, there is no other way the marriage could take place.

    “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.” Revelation 19:9 (KJV) – first the wedding
    “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” Revelation 19:11,14 (KJV) – then the honeymoon

#10. As it was in the days of Noah and Lot so shall it be in the end times

Jesus in the gospels says this time period will be like the days of Noah, and like the days of Lot. Wow, talk about conflicting events! In the days of Noah, a very small group of people are told to ‘get in the ark’, and are saved when the Door closes to shut them in. Jesus in John 10 says that He is the door, thus we see that being in the ark is a type picture of the born again believer being ‘in Christ Jesus’. Not only that, before the judgment falls, the people in the ark are taken ‘up and out’ as they rise above what rages below. So we see that this is a type picture of the Church, redeemed in Jesus the Door, being removed prior to judgement.

In Lot’s day, the opposite happens. Lot is not taken out, he is told to run away! And where does he flee to? Why, he is told to ‘flee to the mountain’. Where do the Jews in the time of Jacob’s trouble flee to? They run and hide to the Selah Petra, where they wait 3.5 years, 1,260 days, for the Lord to come get them at the Revelation 19:14 Second Coming. Who does the Lord come with? Us, the Church.

    “But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Matthew 24:37 (KJV)
    “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.” Luke 17:28,29 (KJV)

Noah and Lot represent two very different events that have two very different conclusions. So it is with the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming. They are two remarkably distinct and different events with two polar opposite conclusions.

We hope this Bible study has been a blessing to you, please pray over it and be a ‘workman’ as we are commanded to be and run all the references listed here. If you allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you, it will become apparent that the Rapture of the Church  and the Second Coming represent two different groups of people that cannot be mashed together without massive contradictions.

Keep looking up, Jesus is coming to get us soon!

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 (KJV)

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/more-undisputable-proofs-pretribulation-rapture-church-jesus-christ/


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on May 27, 2016, 05:51:25 pm
PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE DOCTRINE IN DECLINE

(Friday Church News Notes, May 27, 2016, www.wayoflife.org, fbns@wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143) -

According to a new survey, only 28% of preachers 45 years old and younger hold to a Pre-tribulation Rapture. This compares to 36% of preachers overall.  The survey of 1,000 pastors was done by Lifeway Research. Less than half believe the Antichrist is a literal figure who will arise in the future. Of Baptist pastors, 75% believe in a literal Antichrist; of Lutherans 29%, of Methodists 28%, and of Presbyterian/Reformed 31%.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 27, 2016, 06:15:52 pm
PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE DOCTRINE IN DECLINE

(Friday Church News Notes, May 27, 2016, www.wayoflife.org, fbns@wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143) -

According to a new survey, only 28% of preachers 45 years old and younger hold to a Pre-tribulation Rapture. This compares to 36% of preachers overall.  The survey of 1,000 pastors was done by Lifeway Research. Less than half believe the Antichrist is a literal figure who will arise in the future. Of Baptist pastors, 75% believe in a literal Antichrist; of Lutherans 29%, of Methodists 28%, and of Presbyterian/Reformed 31%.

It's not so much that more have gone post-trib - but those that were ferociously defending it 5 years ago, are more or less silent about it now, largely b/c they're more concerned with their own earthly economic interests.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 30, 2016, 06:16:24 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cqg_hNgrYg


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 31, 2016, 05:20:01 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYV3ARa8Uck


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on September 06, 2016, 06:30:52 pm
MORE EVIDENCE FROM SCRIPTURE THAT CHRISTIANS WILL NOT GO THROUGH THE TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE

Now, placing Christians in the time of Jacob’s trouble introduces a FATAL flaw in post tribbers theology. Can you guess what it is? Since we have eternal security that is based on the actions of both the redemptive work of Jesus on the cross and the sealing of the Holy Spirit at salvation – meaning it is out of our control – that means a Christian can NEVER lose their salvation.

REVELATION SAYS IN 2 PLACES THAT ANYONE TAKING THE MARK OF THE BEAST WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
“Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.” Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)

Jeremiah 30:7 is a proof text all by itself for showing that Church Age Christians will not enter into what is commonly known as the Great Tribulation, but what the Bible calls the time of Jacob’s trouble. You will recall that way back in Genesis 32:28, God changed Jacob’s name, which meant “supplanter” or “deceiver” to Israel, which means “God shall prevail“. So even in the Old Testament, we can clearly see that this time of great tribulation is reserved for the nation of Israel. Good enough for me. But this is not the “more evidence” from Scripture that we want to bring you today.

CHRISTIANS ARE SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION BY THE HOLY SPIRIT
The apostle Paul clearly teaches in multiple places that born again Christians are “sealed in” by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Kinda like when you get in a roller coaster and the harness is put over you so you cannot fall out. We call this the doctrine of Eternal Security, as seen here:

“That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV)

Now, placing Christians in the time of Jacob’s trouble introduces a FATAL flaw in post tribbers theology. Can you guess what it is? Since we have eternal security that is based on the actions of both the redemptive work of Jesus on the cross and the sealing of the Holy Spirit at salvation – meaning it is out of our control – that means a Christian can NEVER lose their salvation. But in the Tribulation, salvation can be lost just like it was for Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. One day they were in, then they grievously sinned, and then they were not only out but God killed them on the spot.

Since you got saved, haven’t you sinned worse than Ananias and Sapphira? You know you have. Why didn’t God kill YOU on the spot? We’ll talk about dispensations in a bit.

REVELATION SAYS IN 2 PLACES THAT ANYONE TAKING THE MARK OF THE BEAST WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
Taking the Mark becomes the UNFORGIVABLE SIN during that time, as seen here:

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV)

Imagine the distraught believing mother who takes the Mark only to get food to feed her starving little baby. Certainly God will understand she only took the Mark so her baby wouldn’t die, right? Wrong. She takes that Mark, she goes to Hell, no forgiveness no second chance. Ever. Obviously that is in stark contrast to the teachings of the apostle Paul, our apostle in the Church Age.

“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” Ephesians 4:30 (KJV)

NOW DO YOU SEE WHY CHURCH AGE CHRISTIANS CANNOT BE A PART OF THE TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE?
In our dispensation, God has amazingly and mercifully given us unconditional forgiveness of all our sins when we became born again – past, present and the ones yet to come in the future. He did this for no one in the Old Testament, for no one in the early Kingdom Age (Acts 2-7), and He will not do it for anyone in the time of Jacobs’ trouble.

“O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.” Psalm 107:1 (KJV)

If Christians were to be in the time of Jacob’s trouble, and one of them took the Mark of the Beast, God would have to honor His word and forgive them for doing that. But in doing so would immediately place the Pauline epistles in contradiction with Revelation 14 which states there is no forgiveness for doing that. Happily, there is no contradiction because we will not be here for that. It is not the time of the Churches trouble, it is the time of Israel’s trouble.

The Pretribulation Rapture – not an “escape hatch” or an “easy out” as some mockingly say – is God removing the Church so He can deal with His chosen people Israel. God has not replaced Israel with the Church, and Christians are not His chosen people. We are two separate groups, but one day, as the Bible says in “that Day”, we will indeed be one under the Promised One of Israel.

“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.” Romans 11:25-27 (KJV)

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/evidence-scripture-christians-will-not-go-time-jacobs-trouble/


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on September 12, 2016, 07:50:21 pm
The Bible Believers Guide To Understanding The Differences Between The Rapture And The Second Coming • Now The End Begins

The day of Christ, the Rapture is to be looked forward to, the Day of the Lord, the Second Coming, is to be greatly feared.

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

There is an old adage that says “things that are different are not the same”. As Christians, we have a nasty tendency to read everything from Matthew to Revelation and try to apply it all to the Church. This will not work, because all the New Testament is not written to the Christian Church. The Church is only one part of it. Much of the New Testament is written to the Jews of that time, and to the Jews that will be living during the time of Jacob’s Trouble, otherwise known as the Great Tribulation. And some of it is written to the unbelieving Gentiles. This is why Paul commands Timothy to teach people how to “rightly divide” their Bibles to know which of the three groups God is speaking to at any given time.

So we see many Christian churches today, who do not rightly divide their Bibles, are teaching their people that there is no difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming. They say that these are one and the same event. But we will show you conclusively in this article that, because of the manifold differences between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, that it is impossible for them to be the same event.

#1: The Rapture is the ‘blessed hope’ while the Second Coming is a Day to be greatly feared.

We start with this one first because it is the one difference most overlooked in a study of the differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming. In Titus 2:13, talking about the Rapture, Paul calls it “the Blessed Hope”, a day of great comfort and joy. But in Amos 5:18, talking about the Day of the Lord, which is in fact the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, God tells us that it is a day of “great woe”, and greatly to be feared! Now, how can the Rapture and the Second Coming possibly be the same? Read Joel 3 for more on the ferocity and woefulness of the Second Coming. Paul calls the Rapture of the Church the “day of Christ”. The Second Coming is called the “day of the Lord”. The day of Christ is to be looked forward to, the Day of the Lord to be feared. If you are someone who believes the Bible, then I could stop this article right here as I have established my case well beyond the shadow of any doubt, reasonable or otherwise. But for  you who are ” fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken” then we have added another 9 rock-solid reasons why the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ cannot be the same event.

    “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 (KJV) – The Rapture

    “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.” 2 Thessalonians 2:2 (KJV) – The Rapture

    “Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.” Amos 5:18 (KJV) – The Second Coming

    “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.” Isaiah 13:9 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#2: In the Rapture, Jesus comes for his Church, at His Second Coming He brings the Church with Him.

Paul teaches over and over again that at the Rapture, the Church is taken up and out from off the face of the Earth. But at the Second Coming, Jesus returns with His saints. Another fatal difference when trying to reconcile the two events as one. The first it’s a “going up”, and in the second it’s a “coming down”.

    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 (KJV) – The Rapture

    “And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” Revelation 19:24 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#3: In the Rapture, the Church is taken to Heaven, at the Second Coming Jesus sets up earthly rule.

In both John and Paul’s writings, the promise of a “heavenly home” awaits for the born again Christian. We call this the Kingdom of God. But in the Second Coming, a thousand year kingdom is established on Earth, known as the Kingdom of Heaven. Christians are never promised an earthly home, but an heavenly one. The Jews and Tribulation saints were never promised that, they get instead a home on the Earth.

    “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” John 14:2,3 (KJV) – The Rapture

    “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Revelation 20:4 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#4: The Rapture happens before the Antichrist and the Tribulation, while the Second Coming happens after both.

Paul stresses repeatedly that one of the incredible benefits of being taken out in the Rapture is that you get to miss the entire wrath of the Great Tribulation. But Matthew tells us that the Second Coming is “after the Tribulation of those days”. Well, which is it? If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event, then these verses represent an irreconcilable difference. But there is not a conflict because, obviously, they are two separate and distinct events.

    “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,” 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV) – The Rapture

    “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV) – The Rapture

    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Matthew 24:29,39 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#5: In the Rapture, only the born again Church sees the Lord come for them, at the Second Coming the whole world witnesses it.

Mockers of the doctrine of the Pretribulation Rapture like to call it a “secret” Rapture, like that is somehow an insult to people who believe it. The apostle Paul, who the Holy Spirit used to write that doctrine, also viewed it as a secret, he called it a “mystery”. In the Rapture, only the redeemed hear the Shout of the Lord and He calls us up to be with Him in the air. At the Second Coming, Jesus appears in JUDGMENT to the whole world.

    “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) – The Rapture

    “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Revelation 1:7 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#6: In the Rapture, no angels are sent to gather the Church. At the Second Coming, angels do all the gathering for judgment.

Paul says that it is Jesus Himself who comes to gather His Church up and out of here. We hear His Shout, and “in the twinkling of an eye” we are gone. No angels mentioned anywhere. Compare this with His Second Coming where only angels are sent to gather God’s elect, the Jewish remnant who made it through the Tribulation. Again, major difference.

    “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) – The Rapture

    “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:30,31 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#7: The Judgment Seat of Christ follows the Rapture while the Judgment of Nations follows the Second Coming.

Immediately after the Rapture of the Church, Paul says that we will be appearing before the Judgment Seat of Christ. This is not a judgment on sin, which was taken care of at Calvary, it is a judgement on the works we did or did not do for Jesus Christ after we got saved. But immediately after the Second Coming, the judgment that takes place is a public judgment, not of individuals, but of the nations.

    “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” 2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV) – The Rapture

    “Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:44-46 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#8: Famine, war and pestilence follow the Rapture while 1,000 years of world peace follows the Second Coming.

Again, the differences here could not be more apparent. After the Rapture, a time of unbelievable suffering is ushered in, the time of Jacob’s Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). But after the Second Coming, a 1,000 reign of the Lord Jesus Christ in Jerusalem brings a world peace so amazing that even poisonous animals are no longer dangerous. The verse in Matthew 24 where the apostles ask Jesus about the “sign of thy coming” is a direct reference to the Second Coming. The doctrine of the Rapture was unknown to them at this time and would not be revealed until Paul, 30 years from the writing of Matthew.

    “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.” Matthew 24:3,6-8 (KJV)

    “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.” Isaiah 11:6-10 (KJV) – The Second Coming

#9: No one in the bible knew of the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church until it was revealed by the Lord to Paul.

This is one of the greatest proof-texts for why the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming cannot be the same event. Paul, in Corinthians 15, is the very first to tell us of the Rapture of the Church, and lets us know that it is a “mystery” revealed by God to him alone which he then was charged with teaching the Church. Nearly every bible chronology places the date of the writing of Matthew at around 35 AD, and the writing of Corinthians at around 66 AD.

Why is this important? Because if no one knew of the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church until Paul, then Matthew 24 and 25 cannot be, under any circumstances, referring to the Church and the Rapture because no one knew of any Rapture. In fact, at the time of Matthew the Church itself was not even formed. If Matthew knew and wrote about the Rapture of the Church, then Paul was lying when he said it was a MYSTERY that he was revealing for the first time in Corinthians.

    “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 (KJV) – The Rapture

#10: At the Rapture, believers are given a glorified body, at the Second Coming they remain in earthly bodies as they enter the Millennial Kingdom.

At the Rapture of the Church, great personal and physical change takes place for the believer. The Bible says that the born again believer receives a new body that is fashioned just like the “glorious body” that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself was given at His Resurrection. Wow, imagine that! How exciting for the believer to be able to look forward to that day. But at the Second Coming, as Jesus sets up His earthly government from Jerusalem, the people who made it through the Tribulation have no special bodies, and it is possible for them to die. Christians who get glorified bodies can never die.

    “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.” Philippians 3:20,21 (KJV) – The Rapture

    “But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.” Isaiah 65:17-21 (KJV) – The Second Coming

If you are not only a Bible believer but also intellectually honest, then you must admit that we have proved completely that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are two very different events with two very different results. In this article we have given 10 reasons as to why, but could easily provide another 20 examples of the differences between the two events.

Things that are different cannot be the same. Case closed.

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/the-bible-believers-guide-to-understanding-the-differences-between-the-rapture-and-the-second-coming/


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 09, 2016, 11:12:09 am
The more I thought about it last night, I believe the AC will be just that...someone unexpectedly out of nowhere, the "underdog us vs them mentality" like we've seen in Hollywood movies like "Rocky", etc. I believe we saw a PREVIEW of this...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-victory-stunned-even-gop-digital-team-081014018.html
Trump’s victory stunned even GOP digital team

No one saw this coming. Not the Trump campaign. Not the Republican National Committee.

The best data inside the Trump campaign and the RNC had Donald Trump’s chances of winning the presidency as a one-in-five proposition.

Last Friday, the RNC gathered a handful of reporters inside its Capitol Hill headquarters in Washington to share what its most up-to-date election model showed.

RNC staffers thought Trump would win 240 Electoral College votes, 30 short of the 270 needed to win. They cautioned reporters that these numbers could change. And it was noteworthy that their projections were more optimistic than much of the public polling. But Trump was down 2 points in Florida, down 2 points in Iowa, down 2 points in New Hampshire and down 3 points in Wisconsin. Trump won Florida, won Iowa, won Wisconsin, and as of the publishing of this story was in a tight race for New Hampshire.

The best data inside the Trump campaign was just as pessimistic. Even the most optimistic models run by Cambridge Analytica for Trump showed him losing. But as Cambridge’s Matt Oczkowski tweeted late Tuesday, Trump’s support and turnout among rural voters was 10 percentage points higher than they had expected.

Even the fact that the RNC held the data briefing was evidence it thought Trump was likely to lose. Staffers wanted journalists to be able to report that their information was accurate in order to protect one of their chief assets in what most thought would be a fight for control of the party after Trump’s loss.

But Trump’s surprise victory was just one of the many things that did not go according to plan for the RNC and its chairman, Reince Priebus, in the 2016 campaign.

Priebus, the RNC chairman for six years now, was powerless to stop Donald Trump — who was not the first choice of a majority of Republican primary voters — from becoming the party’s presidential nominee. Then, when Priebus did put his finger on the scales, it was to push Trump over the hump, helping secure the nomination for a candidate who took the recommendations Priebus and the RNC made in 2013 for a more positive, inclusive and conservative party, and threw them out the window.

But even if the leaders of the RNC — like most in the GOP establishment — thought that a Trump nomination would be a debacle in most ways, they also thought they saw a silver lining.

Trump’s lack of a campaign infrastructure allowed the RNC to run more of the presidential campaign than is normal. The RNC’s resulting gains in data and technology would have helped it in a fight for the soul of the party, even if Trump would have been able to use a massive RNC-built data file to help him wage war against the party from the outside.

When the Republican primary narrowed to Trump and Sen. Ted Cruz, most Republicans did not think either could win the general election against Hillary Clinton. The RNC concluded at some point that there was a way to make lemonade with Trump as nominee.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 10, 2016, 11:06:19 am
In Donald Trump, Americans voted in a new world order
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-election/with-trump-americans-voted-in-a-new-world-order/article32754120/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&service=mobile

I won't post the article itself, but nonetheless the choice of words of "a new world order" popped out.

It seems like this is the perfect setup - look at all of the Republicans for Hillary, Republicans against Trump, no one gave Trump a chance (even his own team included), etc that went on. Now Trump is going to have A LOT of opposition from his own included going in. The perfect "us vs them" mentality set up.

Hegelian Dialectic.

Problem.

Reaction.

Solution.

Perhaps the Rev 6 seals are in the near future?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 21, 2016, 10:28:01 am
First off, no link, b/c got this in my email (this ministry is in my email list).

Second, I don't endorse everything this blog says. (no, I don't believe this nation got a "reprieve" over anything - Trump is openly stabbing America in the back now, with all of his campaign promises he's drawing back from) And I believe Markell is coming off as a scoffer now.

With that being said - this is my belief too - that prior to the catching away of the bride, it's going to be "business as usual" like it was in the days of Noah and Lot. The last 15 years, especially the last 8 under Obama...it was nothing but a psyop with all of this fearmongering of FEMA camps, Martial Law, bloodshed on the streets, 501c3 churches twisting Romans 13 out of context to blindly obey Obama, massive gun control, big cities getting nuked, and what now. Now that Trump pulled a "shock and awe" over Jezebel? Everything's all good again, right? Stock market exceeding expectations, churches and Christians getting a "reprieve", and what not.

So Is the Rapture Now on Hold?
By Jan Markell

November 21, 2016

Are happy days here again? I am sensing that even Rapture-watching believers, some anyway, now think that event is delayed while America returns to prosperity. Thanks to the 2016 election results, we may now return to the role of international leader. Is America about to be great again with a return to prosperity?

A report on Friday said that in the wake of Brexit and Donald Trump, the European Union may fall apart. Have prophecy watchers been proven wrong? Neither of these fit into the presumed agenda.

**Something I've learned recently - when it comes to future end times bible prophecy, NOONE will have any clear answers. Even the yesteryear theologians and evangelists disagreed on the timings of things. Bottom line, we must walk by FAITH, and FAITH ALONE (by hearing from the word of God).
 
An Election or a Revolution?

It's true that an eight year national nightmare is ending. It's been a time where Christians have been targeted, America has declined, lawlessness has abounded, corruption has been the norm, and aberrations have been celebrated. It would be difficult to explain to a Martian why putting children at risk in transgender bathrooms is cool.
 
So, millions of righteously indignant Americans got fed up with heavy-handed government telling them how to behave, what to believe, and what light bulbs to buy. They were sickened that the values of Jay-Z, Beyonce', Katy Perry, and Madonna were not just celebrated but pushed on the average American. They wept at the future for their children and grandchildren and went to the polls to bring sanity back.

The media had told them Hillary Clinton was the slam-dunk winner. So had the polls. Clinton fireworks were set for election night. But few could afford healthcare, Americans were at risk in every big city and small town, and jobs had gone to foreign countries. Voters were ordinary people chipping away at our own Berlin Wall. They were sick of the glory going to "Black Lives Matter" when it was obvious that middle American lives didn't matter.
 
We didn't have an election back on November 8, we had a revolution.

What About the Globalist Agenda?

The globalist agenda has hit a road block because President-Elect Donald Trump is not one of them. How can that possibly fit with end-time eschatology? The opposite should have happened. The ardent globalist, Hillary Clinton, should have won November 8 to keep that freight train on the tracks and the end-time clock racing.
 
But Donald Trump's election is the single largest setback to the one-world aspiration of modern time. This even dwarfs Brexit. Brexit is in the little leagues compared to our election result. Surely the global cabal won't allow this to stand.
 
Then there is Israel. As predicted in Zechariah 12:3, she had become friendless. Now America is circling back to be her staunch ally. How does this line up with end-time scripture? Does this perhaps delay everything?

America in Prophecy

Online prophecy writer Matt Ward states, "Trump's promise to 'make America great again,' is, I believe, a genuine aspiration. His nomination may be a reprieve, a last chance type of situation for repentance and the renewal of a once great nation and power.
 
"But I am not sure that America, or the world, have that kind of time left. When I look around today, I can see the obvious convergence of end-time Bible prophecy in a way never witnessed before. This convergence is coupled by the clear speeding up of prophetic events. We are careening toward a point of no return. These two facts alone clearly point to the lateness of the hour."
 
Ward continues, "If the assumption that we are rapidly approaching a point of no return is correct, a presidency that involves at least four or perhaps eight years of 'making America great again,' led by a man who genuinely wants to affect this change, would, therefore, seem to be incongruous with Bible prophecy."

Business as Usual

Let's say for the sake of discussion that America and even the world go back to "business as usual." Is that not what the climate will be at the time of the Rapture? As Bill Perkins writes in his Compass publication, "The Trump victory does seem like it fits better with Matthew 24 and Luke 17. Those verses say things should be normal before the Rapture. They specifically mention 'planting and harvesting,' 'eating and drinking,' 'building,' and social events. In other words, normal things in life. If Trump rights our sinking ship a bit, it would fit scripture like a glove."

Perkins says, "Contrary to what was predicted, the stock market is rallying. The money people think Trump will do better than Obama on managing the economy. By His grace, God has given us our own Brexit moment--maybe even a Nineveh moment. Maybe this is God's answer to our prayers by temporarily slowing the progress towards the Biblically prophesied 'one world order.' He may have amazingly given us a reprieve from the illegal and unchecked madness of those in power."

**These were kind of my thoughts when Trump "won" - all by design...he didn't just win, but this election sent shell shocks throughout all the world. I believe there will be a period of "prosperity" once he gets into office. Just cling to the written word of God with all your heart.

Imminency still reigns


The important thing to remember as it concerns Rapture timing is "imminency." This suggests any moment. It's why the early church greeted each other with "Maranatha." From the earliest days of the church, the apostles and first-generation Christians nurtured an earnest expectation and fervent hope that Christ might suddenly return at any time to gather His church to Heaven. The writers of the Bible suggest nothing has to precede it.
 
"Be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door." (James 5:7-9)
 
Paul was convinced he himself might be among those who would be caught up alive to meet the Lord! That's imminency. A solid conviction that Christ could return at any time permeates the whole New Testament.

Perhaps we have more time to delay the decay. We are to "occupy until He comes," be salt and light, and rescue the perishing while there is time. Many believe it is the Rapture of the Church that will devastate the world. Once this small but powerful remnant of believers is removed, all hell breaks loose. It matters not who is president, king, ruler, or emperor.

False Teaching Alert

Bill Koenig alerts readers in his weekly e-newsletter that,
"There are people in the Kingdom Now/Dominion Theology community who believe that President-elect Donald Trump will have a major role in establishing the Kingdom on earth beginning in the United States and expanding worldwide."

Koenig also says, "There will be many prophecies by self-appointed prophets in the days ahead who call President-elect Trump the modern day King Cyrus. They did the same when President George W Bush was elected and took office. However, his fate changed dramatically when he called for a Palestinian state and then pushed for it."

Perhaps today

The spirit of the Antichrist seems to reign even in America. The progressive left is rioting, burning, and behaving as though they cannot wait for the man of lawlessness to arise so they can worship him. I believe he is still waiting in the wings. Nothing has changed. The birth pangs will continue to reverberate around the world.

As for Europe, the more it destabilizes the more it sets the stage for the Antichrist. The coming together of the ten kings that shall arise shall do so AFTER the Rapture. What is taking place now in Europe is not all that important.
 
The Rapture is not delayed. The theme of the Bible is perhaps today.  Don't grow weary in waiting. Keep watching expectantly. Jesus Christ will soon take His own to the Father's house (John 14:1-3). We are awaiting our "blessed hope" (Titus 2:13) and it is imminent.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**Although this blog makes good points - at the same time you see the double-mindedness. Waiting for the rapture, but at the same time too concerned with storing up earthly material wealth. Sorry, can't have it both ways. Either you love God, and hate mammon, or love mammon, and hate God.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on November 21, 2016, 08:30:38 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w34_a6lQs_k


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on February 21, 2017, 05:49:12 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSzl-qMZZBo&t=0s


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 07, 2017, 11:03:02 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1os97JPf14


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 23, 2017, 08:42:25 pm
http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/70th-anniversary-regathered-approaches-lord-preparing-visit-israel/
As Their 70th Anniversary Of Being Regathered Approaches, Is The LORD Preparing To Visit Israel?
We believe that the blooming of the fig tree officially began when Israel was regathered back in their own land after nearly 2,000 years of dispersion. This was the first formal regathering but it will not be the last. The one that the Bible has in view ultimately is the final regathering of Israel at the end of the time of Jacob's trouble when Jesus returns to vanquish the Antichrist and his evil hordes at the Battle of Armageddon.

4/23/17

On May 14, 1948, two minutes after midnight, the nation of Israel was officially regathered according to Bible prophecy. The fig tree of Matthew 24 was blooming after two millennia of dormancy

“For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.” Jeremiah 29:10 (KJV)

On May 14, 1948, in Tel Aviv, Jewish Agency Chairman David Ben-Gurion proclaims the State of Israel, establishing the first Jewish state in 2,000 years. In an afternoon ceremony at the Tel Aviv Art Museum, Ben-Gurion pronounced the words “We hereby proclaim the establishment of the Jewish state in Palestine, to be called Israel,” prompting applause and tears from the crowd gathered at the museum. Ben-Gurion became Israel’s first premier.

In Matthew 24, a chapter devoted almost exclusively to the Jews in the time of Jacob’s trouble, Jesus gives a really important time clue. He says that when we would see the “fig tree in bloom”, a reference to the nation of Israel, that that would be the official start of the end times, or last days mentioned throughout Bible prophecy.

“Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.” Matthew 24:32, 33 (KJV)

We believe that the blooming of the fig tree officially began when Israel was regathered back in their own land after nearly 2,000 years of dispersion. This was the first formal regathering but it will not be the last. The one that the Bible has in view ultimately is the final regathering of Israel at the end of the time of Jacob’s trouble when Jesus returns to vanquish the Antichrist and his evil hordes at the Battle of Armageddon.
pretribulation-rapture-church-jesus-christ-absolute-certainty-rightly-dividing-bible-study-nteb-01

THE BIBLE BELIEVERS GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING

When the fig tree bloomed again in 1948, is started a minimum 70 year time period that, when finished, will have included the great falling away of the Church, the end of the Church Age in the Rapture, and the start of the time of Jacob’s trouble. As I write this article on the 23rd day of April, 2017, we are roughly 13 months away from the 70th anniversary of the regathering of Israel. 70 is a very important number in the Bible, and in Bible prophecy in particular.

We have already shown you that it is no coincidence of any kind that Donald Trump was 70 years, 7 months and 7 days old on his first full day in office. Not only that, we also showed you the importance of Trump’s campaign promise to move the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and how that could possibly trigger the war mentioned in Psalm 83.
But before we continue, it’s important to remind ourselves first of the following:

 THE JEWS WERE REGATHERED IN UNBELIEF: At the time, in 1948, newspaper headlines made many references and allusions to Old Testament scriptures about God regathering His chosen people, and for a brief period the people who were fresh off of Hitler’s Holocaust gave the God of Abraham the glory. But it didn’t last long. Today, hospitals in Israel perform late-term third trimester abortions, and Tel Aviv is considered the premier LGBTQP capital of the world, eclipsing that of San Francisco and Greenwich Village in New York City. The Boston Globe calls Tel Aviv “the gayest city on Earth“. Israel celebrates what God destroyed both Sodom and Gomorrah for, let that sink in for a moment.
THE JEWS STILL REJECT THEIR MESSIAH: In the book of Romans, Paul weeps over the lost condition of his Jewish brethren, and wishes he could somehow get them to see that Jesus is the promised Messiah of the Scriptures. In Israel today, there is a growing number of Messianic believers, but the overwhelming majority reject the claims of Jesus.
 THE JEWS WILL FOLLOW THE ANTICHRIST AND BUILD HIM A TEMPLE: In 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, Paul shows us that after the Rapture of the Church, the Antichrist is revealed in what is called the “strong delusion”. Not only that, Jesus in Matthew 24 directs us to Daniel 9:27 (KJV) and shows us the Antichrist sitting in the rebuilt Third Jewish Temple.

third-jewish-temple-jerusalem-israel-antichrist-prophet-daniel

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT THE COMING THIRD JEWISH TEMPLE WILL SHOCK YOU TO YOUR CORE
All that now leads us to May 14, 2018, the 70th anniversary of regathered Israel:

Please note that this article is in no way setting a date for the Rapture of the Church, or a date for the start of the time of Jacob’s trouble. But it is presented to show you some very real possibilities for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy in the very near future.

The prophet Jeremiah in chapter 30 and verse 7 makes a reference to something he calls the “time of Jacob’s trouble”, which is the same thing Jesus mentions in Matthew 24 when He talks about the coming time of “great tribulation”.

“Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.” Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)

But just one chapter before that, Jeremiah mentions something that immediately preceded that, a visitation from the Lord after 70 years. Historically this is talking about the Jews in Babylonian captivity, but is also a prophecy of the Jews in the time of Jacob’s trouble in the end times.

“For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.” Jeremiah 29:10 (KJV)

It is interesting to note that in the book of Revelation, Jesus says that in the time of Jacob’s trouble Israel will be like “Sodom and Egypt”. (Remember the Boston Globe article calling Tel Aviv the “gayest city on Earth”?) They have turned so far away from the LORD that this is how God now views them.

“And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” Revelation 11:8 (KJV)

But Revelation also directs our attention to spiritual Babylon that has now trapped the Jews just like physical Babylon did in Jeremiah’s day.

“And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” Revelation 17:4,5 (KJV)

So I ask you, those of you who are Bible believers and understand that there is much prophecy yet to be fulfilled, is it possible that sometime around the 70th anniversary of the regathering of the nation of Israel, could the LORD be planning to once again visit Israel and His chosen people the Jews?
two-witnesses-of-revelation-time-jacobs-trouble-now-end-begins-end-time-bible-prophecy-pretribulation-rapture

WHAT IS THE POINT OF PUTTING THE BODY OF CHRIST INTO THE TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE?

If so, then wouldn’t that of necessity place the Rapture of the Church before that visit? Yes, it would. The Church has no place in the time of JACOB’S trouble, it is Israel’s final refinement according to the Bible.

“Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” Amos 3:1,2 (KJV)

The 70th anniversary of regathered Israel is 13 months away, and there are only 3 possibilities for what is mentioned in this article. It is possible that 1). some of it could happen, 2). none of it could happen, or 3). all of it could happen.

Are YOU ready for what comes next?


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 30, 2017, 06:20:57 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj0gbiROQsU


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 23, 2017, 10:33:10 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJksRhN4U-Y


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 27, 2017, 04:35:22 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFsak3KpPqY


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 22, 2017, 08:21:02 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqQnK6tkquw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqm7Zpeoh0o


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on August 02, 2017, 07:59:03 pm
One Minute After The Pretribulation Rapture Of The Church, The Bible Becomes A Closed Book For Those Left Behind • Now The End Begins

One minute after the Pretribulation Rapture takes place, a worldwide famine will instantly transpire. It won’t be a famine of food, it will be a famine of not being able to have the word of God.

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.” Amos 8:11-13 (KJV)

The Bible doctrine of the Pretribulation Rapture is so entrenched in Scripture that it’s not only in the New Testament, it’s also in the Old Testament as well. Enoch, living before both the Flood of Noah and before the Law of Moses is a type of a Christian who never sees death and is translated directly to Heaven in his own private rapture. In Song of Solomon 2:8-10 (KJV), we read the glorious story of the Bride, a type of the Church, being called “up and away” by her Beloved, who is “looking down” through the lattice work from up above.

But one minute after this amazing event takes place, a worldwide famine will instantly transpire. It won’t be a famine of food, it will be a famine of not being able to have the word of God. Those are the verses we quoted at the very top of this article. Go back and read them again, and let it sink it.

Amos is one of my favorite OT prophets, God gives him an amazing set of revelations and visions. Historically, Amos was a peer with Hosea, and he came after Joel. He prophesied judgment on Israel at the hands of the Assyrian army, which absolutely came to pass. But if all Amos has to say was simply an accounting of God judging Israel, it would have limited application for us today. But the prophecy of Amos, like most prophecy, has a double application. It applied to the Israel then, and it will apply to Israel in the time of Jacob’s trouble, after the Rapture of the Church.

Back in March, we did an article entitled “The Book Of Amos Reveals Amazing Insight Into The Time Of Jacob’s Trouble And The Battle Of Armageddon“, and it would behoove you to take a moment and read it now if you have not already done so. Today, I want to bring to your attention another aspect of what life in the time of Jacob’s trouble will be like.

And it’s not a pretty picture.

One minute after the Rapture of the Church takes place, the entire Body of Christ is removed from off the Earth and taken to meet Jesus in the clouds, as we see here:

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (KJV)

Comforting words indeed, for us, but what about for those left behind?

After the Church is removed, the Bible becomes a closed Book. I say this because even though the world will still be filled with Bibles, physically, there will not remain even one person anywhere on the globe who can understand it. No one. The unsaved or “natural man” is not capable of understanding God’s word because they don’t have the Holy Spirit in them.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)

The God-approved method of unsaved sinners getting saved and learning the Bible has always been through the ministry of already saved Christians who know the Bible. We see this illustrated beautifully in Acts 8 with the salvation of the Ethiopian eunuch.

“And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:…Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.” Acts 8:30-32,35 (KJV)

The eunuch has Phillip sent to him by God for Bible study, but one minute after the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church, all the ‘Phillips’ will be gone. Movies like Left Behind and others like to show people who, after realizing thier loved ones were taken in the Rapture, picking up theirs Bibles to read them and get saved. But how can they do that if there are no more saved Christians in the world to teach them the Bible? Not only that, Paul says that people who reject the gospel of the grace of God in the days before the Rapture of the Church get tagged with the “strong delusion” so they believe the lie of Antichrist instead of the truth. Don’t believe me? Read it:

“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 (KJV)

See that? The people left behind are boxed in on all sides. They can’t understand the Bible, there are no Christians to witness to them, and God sends them a strong delusion to guarantee they will fall for a lie.

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.” Amos 8:11-13 (KJV)

This is the famine for hearing the word of God that Amos saw, and it is truly terrifying.

My soul thrills whenever I think about the coming Pretribulation Rapture of the Church, and what a glorious moment that shall be. But when I think about what life will be like for those left behind, it becomes heartbreaking to contemplate. Imagine people’s very souls drying up because there won’t be any nourishment from the Bible to feed them, and worse, there won’t even be the chance that they will somehow “figure it out”.

God in His mercy sends the 144,000 Witnesses to teach and preach the Bible one last time, and to open people’s eyes to the truth one last time. But oh, at what a price does it finally come. You have to successfully resist taking the Mark, resist worshipping the image or name of the Antichrist, and if you are found with a Bible you are put to death immediately. Whew! No thank you, please have me excused from that mess.

Job, a type of the Jews in the time of Jacob’s trouble, said that the word of God was more than his “necessary food” in Job 23:12 (KJV).

Feast on it while you still can.

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/one-minute-after-pretribulation-rapture-church-bible-closed-book-left-behind/


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on August 02, 2017, 08:01:55 pm
I dont really buy all that he says in that article. I think 1 minute after we will see the greatest revival on Earth, as all of those who know the truth but refuse to accept it will do so really quickly. I see Amos 8 a little differently. I see that happening now. As its almost impossible to find true KJB's yet you can find all kinds of corrupt bibles. I see that as a famine of the word as you just cant find it.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 02, 2017, 09:42:28 pm
I dont really buy all that he says in that article. I think 1 minute after we will see the greatest revival on Earth, as all of those who know the truth but refuse to accept it will do so really quickly. I see Amos 8 a little differently. I see that happening now. As its almost impossible to find true KJB's yet you can find all kinds of corrupt bibles. I see that as a famine of the word as you just cant find it.

And not only that, but there's countless YT/online lone ranger "ministries" now. No, they're not all bad - but nonetheless there's just so many to keep up with, so many that keep coming out, that it's only increasing confusion in the body of Christ. Even the slightest differences in doctrines from many of these "teachers" will cause a lot of confusion. AW Tozer once said a mere 2 of them in the church having differences on doctrine causes big confusion. But again, we have TOO MANY TOO COUNT now.

The local churches are visible, and they have pastors and ELDERS running it. The big downside to these lone ranger ministries is that they have noone to hold them accountable. Again, like said, they're not all bad, but again like I explained above how it's causing mass confusion, and ultimately famine in the land now. Seriously, some of these guys are MUCH WORSE than the typical Apostate Southern Baptist "church" (ie, they've pushed doctrines worse than I never even heard in these Apostate churches, ie repentance-less gospel, flat earth, etc).

With that being said, yes, I've crossed paths with corrupt KJBs too - I was reading a Thomas Nelson KJB over the last month, and noticed how they replaced the word "Saviour" with "Savior" (which the NIV does), as well as other important words like "labour" to "labor" (BIG difference, again).


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 08, 2017, 07:54:50 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTfVWbk3sp4


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 23, 2017, 09:54:36 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8tR5BjGfpE


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 28, 2017, 01:44:35 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7aa3-S3Av4


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 28, 2017, 10:42:27 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igligy21f5g&t=185s


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 29, 2017, 08:14:37 pm
http://www.christianpost.com/news/virtual-reality-will-enable-the-next-large-revival-in-the-global-church-141393/

Virtual Reality Will Enable the Next Large Revival in the Global Church
By Christopher Benek , CP Op-Ed Contributor | Jul 10, 2015 12:53 PM

Twenty-five years ago most people didn't imagine that the Internet would reshape the way that they existed on a day-to-day basis. Twenty-five years from now people will think about Virtual Reality the same way we think about the Internet today - we won't even be able to imagine our global existence without it. One of the largest beneficiaries of this technological development could be the global church because VR is going to change the way that Christians participate in worship.

The main impact that VR is going to have on the global church is that it is going to, one-day, enable Christians to easily gather from a variety of places without being in the same physical location. This will enable persons who are homebound, sick, caregivers, without transportation, on vacation, or severely disabled to participate in worship with the larger community of faith without needing to leave the place where they are physically residing.

Eventually, VR technology will allow these participants to feel fully immersed as if they are actually physically present. It will also allow them to participate virtually in ways that they may not be able to in their present reality. No longer will one's lack of physical ableness be a deterrent that keeps people from ushering or serving communion. Folks will be able to perform these tasks from afar. Congregants who participate via VR will tithe and partake in the sacraments digitally. Of course this means that, particularly with regard to the sacraments, many ecclesiastical traditions will need to do the theological work of reimagining how modern developments in science and technology inform our understanding of sacramentality with regard to particulate matter.

But before society is exposed to fully immersive VR it is likely that most congregations will transition between VR and their present reality by utilizing Augmented Reality. The benefits of using AR in worship would be that a congregant who is sitting in a church in our present reality could view participating VR congregants by wearing Google Glass (or some equivalent) eyeglasses, contacts, or implanted lenses. So, even though to the naked eye many pews may look empty, when viewed with AR the congregation may actually prove to be more full than ever.

If this renewed sense of community is properly embraced, it is going to have the potential to create a revival in church participation that has never before been seen in the history of the global church. Millions of people who have been disenfranchised from the church because of physical constraints will now be empowered to participate fully via virtual reality in worship and fellowship. At the same time, congregants who still seek the holiness that is found through the physicality of God's creation in our present reality will also be able to fully engage will those VR participants via their augmented reality wearables and enhancements. For these and the aforementioned reasons, technological savvy churches should begin to seriously investigate these exponentially advancing technologies now.

It is also of significance that with the development of VR and AR will come moral and ethical temptations that have never before existed in the history of humanity. The church universal has a spiritual responsibility to model behavior when it comes to the uses of new technology. As such, the global church must not delay in charging its congregants who are, by vocation, scientists and technologists to actively engage in developing these new technologies in ways that will work towards advancing Christ's redemptive purposes for humanity and the world. Not to do so would be poor stewardship of the gifts that God has given us through technological advancement that can help to advance the global church in Christ's Kingdom purposes.


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 30, 2017, 12:13:15 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AInVAv4PpdE


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 30, 2017, 01:31:57 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj6oVJWic9A


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 30, 2017, 01:51:35 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBbEcQWLNIc


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 08, 2017, 11:51:58 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUl8nrBFLHA&t=0s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30ca1ZoUMgM&t=0s


Title: Re: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist
Post by: Mark on April 30, 2018, 05:48:22 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJywmQxixY0&t=0s