End Times and Current Events

General Category => Bible Study => Topic started by: Mark on April 13, 2013, 02:52:39 pm



Title: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on April 13, 2013, 02:52:39 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avej7l03qv0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8RHJNAGJjg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWHpLFFPuNM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt5Ku4cKNqk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9hqYINZ8pE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxsENd1Pr_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzQyHG1sk38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EteTQ4xJ8q4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmgDcbPxixQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H6TElJeFH0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXt4xXFpXwg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B5IasOFVoc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m85auoVmG00


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 13, 2013, 02:58:50 pm
Saw this series a couple of weeks ago - pretty good.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on April 13, 2013, 04:16:14 pm
1st video...(7:30 min)

"...but I need to be about the work of the Lord Jesus Christ and purifying my life in preparation for seeing Jesus at any moment."

While Brian shows he is well versed in scripture and understanding, he still bears the stains of churchianity "works" doctrine. God willing, he will better choose his words in trying to put into his own words what scripture already says. This is an example of where scripture talks of unknown tongues and having an interpretation with it so all would be edified. It always leads us back to the ultimate interpretation, the Word of God.

It's not about getting ready, it's not a process that man must undertake. The thief on the cross with Him shows us that. Jesus did ALL the work for us, so that all we do is believe with all of our heart and we are saved. It is the Spirit in us that purifies us. We have no part in that other than believing God does it for us.

Some tend to mistake an exhortation for a commandment. BIG difference. We are exhorted to"fight the good fight", and "do that which is good", and it may seem like we have to do all these "good works" in order to be saved, but those aren't commandments, they are exhortations/encouragements/suggestions, not required mandates in the traditional sense.

Now I do believe those words do serve as a commandment in the sense that because it is written, it will be so. So in that sense, they are even prophetic, that those who are saved will heed in the end those exhortations to do good without really realizing it, because it is the Spirit that moves them through life who will eventually lead us through an everlasting life.

When we are born-again, we are baptized with the Spirit, which is Jesus Christ in us, who washes clean "with the washing of water by the word".

Brian, we who are saved are already washed clean. The only thing left is for us to, "put off this corruptible" (leave the fleshly carnal body) and "we shall be changed" (we shall be like Him).

Yes, we "grow in grace" as we mature in the Word, growing in the knowledge of the truth from a child to a man who puts away childish things, but the younger is as much "purified" as any elder, as it says "and he that is chief, as he that doth serve". We are all one in Christ and are saved. Thank you Jesus.



Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on April 14, 2013, 05:52:08 am
 ::)

you guys missed the whole point of the vids, and that is the mind set and spirit that one has as to pre trib or post trib and how your life and the Bible you read is related to that view. If your pre trib, your reading your Bible and telling people because time is short, if your post trib, your mind set is, well i have time... I laso like his take on Alex Jones, that was well presented and really shows the spirit he has.

I also like the way he presented the full spirit of post trib, in that it really is a catholic teaching and you have to suffer...


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 14, 2013, 01:52:51 pm
::)

you guys missed the whole point of the vids, and that is the mind set and spirit that one has as to pre trib or post trib and how your life and the Bible you read is related to that view. If your pre trib, your reading your Bible and telling people because time is short, if your post trib, your mind set is, well i have time... I laso like his take on Alex Jones, that was well presented and really shows the spirit he has.

I also like the way he presented the full spirit of post trib, in that it really is a catholic teaching and you have to suffer...

Like I said, I liked the vids, despite a few minor reservations(which I mentioned above).

But yeah, when "Pastor" Steven Anderson went on the Alex Jones show to promote his "After the Tribulation" DVD(which I saw on youtube, BTW), it really raised some red flags. And add to the fact that the director of that film has ties to previous p0rn films. And it seems like too the enemy(or whatever you want to call them) like David Icke, Barbara Max-Hubbard, and Benjamin Crème(among other NWO minions) are anticipating "disappearances" when their New Age "Christ" makes his appearance. Even the guy interviewed in New Order Barbarians said the Planned Parenthood director that spoke to him privately about all of the NWO agendas said the same thing.

Also, want to point out about modern-day Christians beliefs on this - they're not post-trib either, b/c Churchianity as a whole believes most of Revelation and Daniel were fulfilled in the 1st millennium.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on April 15, 2013, 01:57:56 am
Quote
you guys missed the whole point of the vids,

No brother, I did not miss it. I get it, I just have no interest in the debate.

Some think it's any minute, which I don't, and so they are running around trying to save people. And the other side they aren't worried because other events must take place first according to their beliefs, so they have no worries and many as a result are at best lukewarm.

It's not something I believe is an edifying topic. It only serves to divide people. "This is the day which the Lord hath made...". It's about now, not tomorrow.

Those that are saved, it definitely doesn't matter when we are "changed". Those that are lost, still doesn't matter, as they are lost already, and none of us can convince the lost Jesus is coming back. It's up to them to believe.

We are to focus on today. Not what or when something will happen in the future.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on April 15, 2013, 05:53:15 am

Mat 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Boldhunter on April 15, 2013, 11:38:22 am
"Like Kilika says, the Spirit has already purified us. IOW, it's not like we have to stop sinning b/c his return is imminent."

 We have to be careful on statements like this.

Romans 6:15 KJV
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

I don't point this out to stir up strife- but because there is a belief out now (esp. among teens/college-aged) that you can believe in Jesus and  His blood forgiving you- and be gay
We ARE commanded to stop sinning - period- if we have truly repented and believe Jesus and are walking in the Spirit.

Galatians 5:18-26 KJV

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on April 15, 2013, 05:22:16 pm
Exactly. Because we are no longer held to the letter of the law, that is NOT license to continue to do what the law defines as sin. It is the Spirit in the believer that will exhort them to seek out what is more edifying, and gives the believer the ability to "walk in the Spirit".

When we are saved, and become sons, God no longer sees the sinful flesh, he sees Jesus in our place.

The flesh WILL continue to sin, we cannot change that. The fleshly body, the "old man" must be put away. It must die (...once to die...) because it is corrupted.

We must trust God that it's okay, because of the Holy Ghost in us, and in spite of what the flesh does.

"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come."
Hebrews 13:14 (KJB)


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on May 26, 2013, 11:42:10 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxsENd1Pr_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzQyHG1sk38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EteTQ4xJ8q4


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 26, 2013, 01:11:24 pm
3 very good videos - yeah, when you read Rev 7:1-3, you'll realize that it comes BEFORE Rev 6.

Rev 7:1  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.



Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on May 28, 2013, 04:12:41 am
PreTrib Rapture Moment 9: Rapture-Palooza?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmgDcbPxixQ


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 28, 2013, 12:56:49 pm
Not that I'm crediting Bryan or anything, but I think I'm understanding the pre-trib doctrine now. I'm surprised it's easier than I thought it was over the last 4 years.

Like I mentioned in another thread, yes, Satan is the father of lies, but these Hollywood movies are NOT marketed toward Christians(if you know what I mean here).



Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on May 30, 2013, 04:08:00 am
PreTrib Moment 10: The Two Witnesses in Revelation 11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H6TElJeFH0


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 30, 2013, 10:37:29 am
Another good video here - yeah, figured Elijah is one of the 2 witnesses. For one, he was raptured while he was still alive. And 2, Malachi prophecized this...

Malachi 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on May 30, 2013, 10:56:41 am
Another good video here - yeah, figured Elijah is one of the 2 witnesses. For one, he was raptured while he was still alive. And 2, Malachi prophecized this...

Malachi 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


Did he say that? I have not watched it yet


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on May 30, 2013, 11:57:39 am
So was Enoch, "for God took him". So then is Enoch the other witness?


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 30, 2013, 12:05:37 pm
Did he say that? I have not watched it yet

Yes - Moses and Elijah(he said, that is), but posted that passage above b/c it mentions Elijah in the last days.

So was Enoch, "for God took him". So then is Enoch the other witness?

Rev 11:6  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Just looking at this passage of scripture alone, it looks like Moses and Elijah. No, not saying it is with 110% certainty, but during their days on earth both did just that(Elijah the former, and Moses the latter).

But again, we will see.

As for what Bryan said - he was driving home another point that the rapture is pre-trib b/c these 2 witnesses are showing these same signs they did in the OT to the Jews in the great tribulation.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on May 30, 2013, 12:12:32 pm
Quote
...during their days on earth both did just that(Elijah the former, and Moses the latter)

Right. Okay, I see the logic. Sorry, haven't listened to the video if that was apparent in what he said.

Not having anything to dispute that, and there being just a handful of verses that might relate to an explanation of the witnesses, I can't disagree.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on June 01, 2013, 08:43:13 am
Pre Trib Rapture Moment 11: What will trigger the rapture?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXt4xXFpXwg


Pre Trib Rapture Moment 12: What about a "split Rapture"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B5IasOFVoc


Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m85auoVmG00


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on June 01, 2013, 10:04:02 am
Yes - Moses and Elijah(he said, that is), but posted that passage above b/c it mentions Elijah in the last days.

Rev 11:6  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Just looking at this passage of scripture alone, it looks like Moses and Elijah. No, not saying it is with 110% certainty, but during their days on earth both did just that(Elijah the former, and Moses the latter).

But again, we will see.

As for what Bryan said - he was driving home another point that the rapture is pre-trib b/c these 2 witnesses are showing these same signs they did in the OT to the Jews in the great tribulation.

finally listened to it, and he makes some good points, but here is my contention.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


Here the Lord is saying he did in fact come already, as John the Baptist. But we read here

Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

so we see that John came in the "spirit and power" of Elijah, and so Elijah can come back physically as a witness then. it was just always one of those weird sections. Im not real sure on the Moses part, but he does make a good case for Moses.



Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 01, 2013, 01:10:27 pm
Yeah, I'll admit, when for a long time others wanted to show me the truth about pre-trib when I was firmly post-trib, it wasn't that I didn't want to listen, but I was afraid to listen. I don't know why - but Bryan showed a good point how the downloads on one of his pre-trib sermons was only 1/3 of the total views.

And to throw this out too, maybe that's why I became a fan of Steven Anderson and his post-trib rantings, despite him denying one of the basic deity's of Jesus Christ's atonement(forgot which was it was, but it is an important one).


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on June 02, 2013, 10:23:15 am
Pre Trib Rapture Moment 14: Aren't the wicked taken to judgment first?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6hyBbwe1Fo

Pre Trib Rapture Moment 15: Zombie Apocalypse and the Rapture?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETrWxa68JG8

Pre Trib Rapture Moment 16: What about the Judgment Seat of Christ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBC3Yu7DUf0


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 06, 2013, 01:33:25 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HxVyzegS1s


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on June 06, 2013, 02:02:30 pm
Can't listen for 3 hours?  :D I can't listen to much more than 3 minutes!


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on June 06, 2013, 02:43:19 pm
Actually, on occasion something is said and eventually, wisdom is gained, if nothing else, to ponder something from a perspective I hadn't noticed yet. Thank you Jesus.

In this case, it's verse that stood out, though I have read it many times before. It may be that God decided it's most edifying to reveal it now, with current goings on in society.

As Bryan mentioned it...

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left." Luke 17:34 (KJB)

That got my attention. So I felt I needed to look further for clarification of just what is being revealed with that verse.

In context...

20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22  And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it].
23  And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].
24  For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25  But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
32  Remember Lot's wife.
33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34  I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35  Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36  Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37  And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Luke 17:28-37 (KJB)


Until now, it hasn't stood out to me that this describes people going about life doing a variety of things, when suddenly, ("in the twinkling of an eye"?)
one of them is taken "and the other left" in an apparent "rapture" at the coming of the Son of God.

Why does it say two men in one bed? While "God is not mocked", I can see some having a field day with that verse. But the point that hit me was how all those people seem to be doing the same things, living the same way, yet only one of them is taken, which seems to suggest that it's not about how you live day to day on the "outward appearance", but how you believe in your heart, which only God can judge that, as "the LORD looketh on the heart."

Even Lot and his family were living amongst the wickedness of Sodom. But what happened? God called Lot out of Sodom. Are we being called out of Sodom? Or will we be going about our lives as we have, "like in the days of Noe", when it happens?

One thing is for sure...

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Revelation 22:20 (KJB)

"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation"


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 17, 2013, 07:25:31 pm
Job 5:19  He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee.
Job 5:20  In famine he shall redeem thee from death: and in war from the power of the sword.



Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on October 21, 2013, 03:25:28 am
Pre Trib Rapture Moment 17: Are Post Tribbers Saved?

 Published on Oct 20, 2013

Many have claimed that I teach that people are lost for believing in a post-trib. rapture of the body of Christ. This video will (hopefully) set the record straight that I do NOT, nor have ever taught that post-tribbers are lost!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGF3Iyd83Ns


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 21, 2013, 10:47:39 am
Good video - I agree, post-tribers aren't lost either, as it's not part of salvation. However, I will say this(at least from my experiences) - it can change your perspective on how to approach things when these last days are approaching. For example, you might get caught up in worrying about stocking up on food and ammo, and/or preparing over running for the hills to bug out.

Rev 6:5  And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6  And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


I know the Lord provides for his flock - but nonetheless, that's what the scripture says what would happen in the time of Jacob's trouble, and sounds like it's going to happen to the WHOLE world(and throw in major war and pestilences). It's not just persecution.

As for that Steven Anderson guy - forget his post-trib beliefs, nothing but ignorance comes out of his mouth.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on December 22, 2013, 05:05:17 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fxe2dhScZ0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc7FQi022XU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOu6ebnLOXo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp_6m_PW_Mk


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on December 22, 2013, 05:17:42 am
Quote
I know the Lord provides for his flock

Indeed He does. Jesus promised. So it really doesn't matter when we are here or in heaven, we are saved, delivered from the evil as sons of God.

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:14 (KJB)


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on December 27, 2013, 06:11:36 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtfyoJrHjTI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OYz4XQhcPo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2UMTVeWfds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRywQ6WQkl8


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: FervorForFaith on January 02, 2014, 09:37:47 pm
I have a pre-trib rapture question, and figured this was as good a place as any to ask it.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I'd love to believe pre-trib, but these verses are holding me back. It seems almost confirmatory that it would mention the "voice of the seventh angel" and "when he shall begin to sound" when we look at rapture verses referring to "the trumpet shall sound" and "the voice of the archangel".

Also, the time of the dead, that they should be judged? That can't be the great white throne judgment. It would seem to me that the judging of "them that fear thy name" would include us, as we fear God's name. That would make it the judgment seat of Christ, no?

If anyone has an explanation, I'd love to hear it. I want to get this issue straightened out once and for all. In my mind, it comes down to pre-trib vs. pre-wrath. No other theory makes sense.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on January 03, 2014, 03:43:26 am
if its not pre trib, than how are we in Heaven with the Lord on horses before he comes back in Rev 19?

Rev 10:7 and 11:15-18 have nothing to do with the Rapture. Your assuming that the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet. Scripture doesn't say that at all, and you cant make it work.

The Church is in Heaven already passed through the Judgment seat of Christ in Rev ch 4 and 5. We are in Heaven on horses with the Lord in Rev 19, all before the second coming. The second coming is Jesus coming back to Earth, not the sky to gather his people. The rapture he comes gets us, the second coming we come back with him.  :)


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on January 03, 2014, 04:11:12 am
Also Jesus already went to Heaven once and came back,that we know of. So really wouldnt the rapture be the third coming  ;) and so on...

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Here the Lord says do not touch me, i havent ascended to my father. and later...

Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Here the Lord is touched, so he had to ascend to Heaven and came back. Second coming.  :)


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on January 03, 2014, 04:28:25 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KYF1WI_40o


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: FervorForFaith on January 03, 2014, 06:16:31 am
if its not pre trib, than how are we in Heaven with the Lord on horses before he comes back in Rev 19?

See, now you're confusing me with a post-trib view. I'm pre-wrath. Totally different. Post-trib believes we are raptured at the battle of Armageddon. I don't believe that. You can't come up and down at the same time.

Quote
Rev 10:7 and 11:15-18 have nothing to do with the Rapture.

Then what DO they have to do with? That's my question. Like I said, I'd like to believe pre-trib, but until someone explains those verses I posted, I can't.

Quote
Your assuming that the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet. Scripture doesn't say that at all, and you cant make it work.

From the above verses, it would at least make sense.



Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on January 03, 2014, 06:17:40 am
im sorry, what is pre wrath?

The whole thing is called the WRATH OF GOD.

Quote
Then what DO they have to do with? That's my question. Like I said, I'd like to believe pre-trib, but until someone explains those verses I posted, I can't.

see the other vid, the one about the trumpets. The last trumpet has never been the 7th trumpet of Rev.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: FervorForFaith on January 03, 2014, 10:23:09 pm
im sorry, what is pre wrath?

You watch Chris White's vids right? (you posted his latest vid) He has a full presentation on the pre-wrath position, and I think he does an excellent job explaining it. Though I have a few differences in my view of pre-wrath than him.

Quote
The whole thing is called the WRATH OF GOD.

Not necessarily. The day of the Lord is called the wrath of God. Zephaniah 1:15 says, "That day is a day of wrath..." Notice that "wrath" is specifically mentioned in four places during the time of Jacob's trouble:

1. When the 6th Seal is opened (the great day of his wrath is come)

This means that before the 6th seal, the wrath of the Lamb/Jesus/God the Son hadn't occurred yet, but now that day is come.

2. After the 7th Trumpet is sounded (The nations were angry, and thy wrath is come)

This means that the day of God's wrath has come immediately after the 7th trumpet and not before it.

3. When the angel warns men not to receive the mark of the Beast (The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God)

This means that the wrath of God will come down on those that take the mark (not those who don't. It also is an indicator that God's wrath hasn't been revealed yet.

4. The 7 Vials (for in them is filled up the wrath of God)

Pretty self explanatory. The 7 vials are God's wrath being "poured out without mixture."

Also, if the time of Jacob's trouble is the day of the Lord, how can Elijah show up DURING the day of the Lord, when God tells us clearly he will arrive BEFORE it?

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Quote
see the other vid, the one about the trumpets. The last trumpet has never been the 7th trumpet of Rev.

All that tells me is that the 7th trumpet isn't the rapture (which is still debatable, seeing as how Chris got the Feast of Trumpets part wrong. See Leviticus 23:24 about that) it doesn't tell me WHAT Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-18 is describing.

Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the "mystery of God?" What is the "voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound?" And why are they so similar in wording to what happens in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16?

Revelation 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Who is He giving reward to? Why is this "the time of the dead, that they should be judged?"

Please, I beg of you, answer my questions. I want to believe pre-trib, but I won't until I've been convinced through scripture that it is 100% correct.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on January 04, 2014, 05:22:13 am
You watch Chris White's vids right? (you posted his latest vid) He has a full presentation on the pre-wrath position, and I think he does an excellent job explaining it. Though I have a few differences in my view of pre-wrath than him.

Ive known Chris for many years, doesnt mean ive watched everything he has ever done. When ever some one says im pre-wrath, it usually means something else.

Quote
1. When the 6th Seal is opened (the great day of his wrath is come)

This means that before the 6th seal, the wrath of the Lamb/Jesus/God the Son hadn't occurred yet, but now that day is come.

See this is what i mean by it usually means something else. The 6th seal is the Wrath of the Lamb, not the wrath of God. Yes i know he is one and the same, but scripture calls it something else.


Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

God pours out his wrath on the world during the whole Time of Jacobs trouble. The whole time period is the Wrath of God. You can grab all kinds of verses where you find the phrase wrath of God, but that doesnt make it the tribulation period. The whole Tribulation period, known by many different names, the great and terrible day of the Lord, the time of Jacobs trouble, the wrath of God, the Apocalyspe.

So when you say yoru pre wrath, there are a lot of differnt meanings to it. So when YOU say pre wrath, pre wrath what? 6th seal? War of Gog and Magog? How about when the Lord killed the men of Israel in the desert for complaining to much?

Psa 78:31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.  

Im not trying to be complicated, just want to know exactly what you mean. I can state my position very clearly, pre wrath? i have no idea...

Quote
What is the "mystery of God?" What is the "voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound?" And why are they so similar in wording to what happens in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16?

what does any of that have to do with the Rapture? The seventh angel has nothing to do with the final trumpet. The Church is already in Heaven and Judged in Rev 4 and 5. The 7th trumpet is just that, the 7th trumpet.

Quote
Revelation 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Who is He giving reward to? Why is this "the time of the dead, that they should be judged?"

This is the First Resurrection, this isnt the Rapture.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The people on the thrones, that is the Church the Bride of Christ. We are in Heaven in Rev 4 and 5, already Judged and received our crowns. We are the ones with the Lord in Heaven in Rev 19 on horses before he descends back to Earth, and it is us who are on the Thrones in Rev 20.

Quote
Please, I beg of you, answer my questions. I want to believe pre-trib, but I won't until I've been convinced through scripture that it is 100% correct.

I did, a couple of times now. The Church is raptured Before the Lord even takes the seal. Heck we are raptured and Judged before that happens. In your pre-wrath view, when is the Judgment seat of Christ that is only for his bride?


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: FervorForFaith on January 04, 2014, 01:13:56 pm
Ive known Chris for many years, doesnt mean ive watched everything he has ever done. When ever some one says im pre-wrath, it usually means something else.

Admittedly, my view of pre-wrath is ever-so-slightly different from Chris' view of it, though I generally agree with his stance on it. I'd highly recommend his presentation on it. :)

Here's the link: (It's over an hour long, so beware)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV2txxxdVEQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV2txxxdVEQ)

Quote
See this is what i mean by it usually means something else. The 6th seal is the Wrath of the Lamb, not the wrath of God. Yes i know he is one and the same, but scripture calls it something else.


Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Notice that the wrath of the Lamb does not occur until the 6th seal is opened. The first 5 seals are not wrath. I believe they are man-made catastrophe that lead up to God finally sending His wrath on earth. (1st seal is the Freemasonic/New Age Christ, the Unconquered Sun, the Antichrist) (2nd seal is worldwide war, possibly WWIII) (3rd seal is a worldwide food crisis and economic collapse) (4th seal is pestilence/pandemic and overall death) (5th seal is martyrdom of the saints) The wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God are connected to one another and don't start until the 6th seal rapture and 7th seal has been opened. Think of it like a layer system:

First 5 Seals - Man-made catastrophe, the NWO comes to fruition
6th Seal - Rapture of the elect
7th Seal - Beginning of God's wrath
7 Trumpets - Wrath of the Lamb
7 Vials - Wrath of God (either the Father or the entire Godhead)

Quote
God pours out his wrath on the world during the whole Time of Jacobs trouble. The whole time period is the Wrath of God. You can grab all kinds of verses where you find the phrase wrath of God, but that doesnt make it the tribulation period. The whole Tribulation period, known by many different names, the great and terrible day of the Lord, the time of Jacobs trouble, the wrath of God, the Apocalyspe.

How is that possible, if Elijah arrives and preaches to the Jews in Jerusalem during the tribulation/time of Jacob's trouble period (alongside another, whether it be Moses or Enoch. I personally think it's Enoch) when the Bible clearly says he arrives BEFORE the great and dreadful day of the Lord?

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Quote
So when you say your pre wrath, there are a lot of different meanings to it. So when YOU say pre wrath, pre wrath what? 6th seal? War of Gog and Magog? How about when the Lord killed the men of Israel in the desert for complaining to much?

Psa 78:31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.  

Im not trying to be complicated, just want to know exactly what you mean. I can state my position very clearly, pre wrath? i have no idea...

Though I can make a case for the seals and trumpets running concurrently (6th seal and immediately after 7th trumpet: this is why I'm asking my question), I generally see pre-wrath in the sense that the rapture occurs at the 6th seal, and the trumpets and vials occur afterward as the day of the Lord.

Quote
what does any of that have to do with the Rapture?

I don't know, you tell me.

Quote
The seventh angel has nothing to do with the final trumpet. The Church is already in Heaven and Judged in Rev 4 and 5. The 7th trumpet is just that, the 7th trumpet.

That's what I'm asking: What DOES it have to do with? If it isn't the rapture, than what is it?

Quote
This is the First Resurrection, this isnt the Rapture.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The people on the thrones, that is the Church the Bride of Christ. We are in Heaven in Rev 4 and 5, already Judged and received our crowns. We are the ones with the Lord in Heaven in Rev 19 on horses before he descends back to Earth, and it is us who are on the Thrones in Rev 20.

This is the closest you've ever come to answering my question. However, I would like to ask you to elaborate more. :)

Quote
I did, a couple of times now. The Church is raptured Before the Lord even takes the seal. Heck we are raptured and Judged before that happens. In your pre-wrath view, when is the Judgment seat of Christ that is only for his bride?

No Mark, you didn't. You just told me "that has nothing to do with the rapture" and then never explained what it does have to do with. I want to know what those verses are describing.

In the pre-wrath view, the judgment seat of Christ takes place during the day of the Lord (which is not the entire 7-year tribulation period). It is referred to in scripture as the day of Christ (the day of Christ is for the saved, whereas the day of the Lord is the outpouring of wrath and fierce judgment on the wicked).

P.S. I know I can get agitated sometimes and sound like I'm yelling at you. I'm not, I just really want to understand this issue.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on January 05, 2014, 02:21:50 am
Tell you what guys, once you get the back and forth worked out, how about somebody posting up a thread that clearly step by step lays out the time line for all this so we won't keep hashing it out over and over.

It doesn't matter when a rapture happens and I'd prefer to ban any discussions of it. But, scripture says it happens, at some point we meet the Lord in the air.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on January 05, 2014, 05:03:49 am
THESE things are getting to long. Lets keep it to one topic. Lets start with your pre-wrath view. I dont have time to sit and watch an hour long vid today, can you give me the condensced version?


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: FervorForFaith on January 05, 2014, 05:46:28 pm
THESE things are getting to long. Lets keep it to one topic. Lets start with your pre-wrath view.

Why don't we start with the questions I presented at the beginning? I want to agree with you on pre-trib, but first I need answers to these questions.

Quote
God pours out his wrath on the world during the whole Time of Jacobs trouble. The whole time period is the Wrath of God. You can grab all kinds of verses where you find the phrase wrath of God, but that doesnt make it the tribulation period. The whole Tribulation period, known by many different names, the great and terrible day of the Lord, the time of Jacobs trouble, the wrath of God, the Apocalyspe.

Once again, how is that possible, if Elijah arrives and preaches to the Jews in Jerusalem during the tribulation/time of Jacob's trouble period (alongside another, whether it be Moses or Enoch) when the Bible clearly says he arrives BEFORE the great and dreadful day of the Lord?

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

If the day of the Lord is the tribulation, and if Elijah comes during the tribulation, why does it say he comes before it?

Quote
The seventh angel has nothing to do with the final trumpet. The Church is already in Heaven and Judged in Rev 4 and 5. The 7th trumpet is just that, the 7th trumpet.

Then what DOES it have to do with? What is it? It says it is the time that the dead should be judged. Here are my questions regarding the 7th trumpet:

-What is "the voice of the seventh angel?"
-What is the "mystery of God?"
-Who are the dead?
-What is being judged?
-Can there be two judgment seats of Christ?

Quote
I dont have time to sit and watch an hour long vid today, can you give me the condensced version?

Well Mark, then watch it another time. Pre-wrath wasn't the point of my original post. It was to get these questions answered.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on January 08, 2014, 05:35:40 am
how about you just tell me what your pre wrath view is since it is different than the video you presented


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on January 08, 2014, 05:38:57 am
Quote
-What is "the voice of the seventh angel?" the voice of the 7th angel.
-What is the "mystery of God?" [color=]this is the full plan that the Lord has created for mankind and his whole purpose for doing it. Its a mystery, meaning a new revelation. IE: we finally get all the answers. [/color]
-Who are the dead? dead people who are not saved by Jesus
-What is being judged? which jusgment are we talking about here?
-Can there be two judgment seats of Christ? Nope. You have the Judgment seat of Christ which happens after the Rapture, then you have the first Resurection, then you have the White Throne Judgment.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on January 08, 2014, 05:40:42 am
Quote
Once again, how is that possible, if Elijah arrives and preaches to the Jews in Jerusalem during the tribulation/time of Jacob's trouble period (alongside another, whether it be Moses or Enoch) when the Bible clearly says he arrives BEFORE the great and dreadful day of the Lord?

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

If the day of the Lord is the tribulation, and if Elijah comes during the tribulation, why does it say he comes before it?


Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: FervorForFaith on January 08, 2014, 07:46:36 pm

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


:) You're half right.

Matthew 11:13-14  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

John the Baptist was Elijah only if the children of Israel received it ("it" being the kingdom). They did not. They killed their Messiah, Jesus, and persecuted His disciples. So Elijah must come again (as one of the two witnesses) to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, etc. DURING the tribulation/TOJT.

Quote
which jusgment are we talking about here?

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This judgment.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on January 09, 2014, 06:12:42 am
:) You're half right.

Matthew 11:13-14  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

John the Baptist was Elijah only if the children of Israel received it ("it" being the kingdom). They did not. They killed their Messiah, Jesus, and persecuted His disciples. So Elijah must come again (as one of the two witnesses) to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, etc. DURING the tribulation/TOJT.

 ??? WHAT? can you back that up with scripture? that Elijah comes 3 times?  Because Matt 17 clearly states that Elias has already come, and that he came as John and the Lord was speaking to his disciples.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on January 09, 2014, 06:20:14 am

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This judgment.

That is talking about the first ressurection jusgment that happens AFTER the Trib. This is NOT the Judgment seat of Christ that happens right after the Rapture.

Bryan has 2 good sermons on this.

The Judgment Seat Of Christ Pt 1
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=522111445540
The Judgment Seat Of Christ Pt 2
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=529111434278

The first ressurection doesnt involve the Church or Bride, we are the ones on the thrones.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on January 09, 2014, 12:30:49 pm
quote from: FervorForFaith on January 08, 2014, 06:46:36 pm
Quote
Smiley You're half right.

Matthew 11:13-14  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

John the Baptist was Elijah only if the children of Israel received it ("it" being the kingdom). They did not. They killed their Messiah, Jesus, and persecuted His disciples. So Elijah must come again (as one of the two witnesses) to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, etc. DURING the tribulation/TOJT.
??? WHAT? can you back that up with scripture? that Elijah comes 3 times?  Because Matt 17 clearly states that Elias has already come, and that he came as John and the Lord was speaking to his disciples.

"it" Jesus was talking about was John the Baptist is the literal fulfillment of the coming of Elias in prophecy, not the kingdom. What they would receive or not was Jesus saying that His Word says that John the Baptist is to be accepted as the fulfillment of prophecy of the return of Elias, "which was for to come", if they would "receive it".

He was not literally Elias. John the Baptist was for them, at that time, and it fulfilled prophecy about Elias, as Jesus said.

Quote
So Elijah must come again (as one of the two witnesses)

I agree with Mark. The return of Elias, as Jesus said, has already happened, in the form of John the Baptist.

Your problem is in saying who the two witnesses are. Scripture does NOT say. It's mere speculation by man. For you to name one or both witnesses, you need extraordinary scriptural proof, because I believe it is not there in verse.

Show me the verse where the two witnesses are named. Maybe I missed it.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: FervorForFaith on January 09, 2014, 08:07:47 pm
If the children of Israel had accepted/received it, John the Baptist would have been the fulfillment of Elijah, according to the prophecy. Much like if they had accepted/received Jesus as Messiah, the day of the Lord would have happened and the kingdom would have been ushered in.

Matthew 11:13-14  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

It was a conditional statement. John is Elijah IF you will receive it. They did not. Jesus said that Elijah will first come and "restore all things". John is the greatest of the prophets, but he did not do that. Israel rejected their Messiah, and are lost right now.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John was a fantastic evangelist, and yes, he did fulfill the prophecy, but he did not completely fulfill the prophecy.

So now because that happened, we have the church age we are in right now.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Once the church age is over and the tribulation begins, God will send Elijah himself as one of the two witnesses of Revelation.

Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

Revelation 11:3-6 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

1260 days = about 3.5 years

Elijah's mission, as was John the Baptist's mission, will be to prepare Israel for its Messiah.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

This time, however, the children of Israel will believe and be saved.

To summarize: Yes, John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy in Malachi 4:5, but he did not COMPLETELY fulfill it. It was conditional. "...if ye will receive it..." Much like how Jesus offered the kingdom to the Jews when He arrived the first time, they rejected it. "He hath a devil..."


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on January 10, 2014, 02:13:29 am
Quote
Show me the verse where the two witnesses are named. Maybe I missed it.

Quote
Once the church age is over and the tribulation begins, God will send Elijah himself as one of the two witnesses of Revelation.

Show me where it says that in verse!

I know I didn't miss it, but I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. It's not there. To say who the 2 witnesses are is to speculate at best. Scripture does not name them.

Remember that we are to look at this spiritually, not always literally. Who spiritually would be the 2 witnesses, and who would be "Elias"? My understanding is that we are not to look for a literal Elias to return before the Lord does. John the Baptist fulfilled that prophecy, whether the Jews received it or not.

It was not "conditional". It was a way of saying, "If you will believe it", or something like, "If you will accept John as Elias". It's a figure of speech. It was Jesus' way of saying that Elias wasn't never intended to literally return. It's a spiritual return in the form of John the Baptist, whether Jews accepted it or not, it was going to happen to fulfill prophecy.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on January 13, 2014, 06:03:36 am
If the children of Israel had accepted/received it, John the Baptist would have been the fulfillment of Elijah, according to the prophecy. Much like if they had accepted/received Jesus as Messiah, the day of the Lord would have happened and the kingdom would have been ushered in.

Matthew 11:13-14  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

It was a conditional statement. John is Elijah IF you will receive it. They did not. Jesus said that Elijah will first come and "restore all things". John is the greatest of the prophets, but he did not do that. Israel rejected their Messiah, and are lost right now.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John was a fantastic evangelist, and yes, he did fulfill the prophecy, but he did not completely fulfill the prophecy.

So now because that happened, we have the church age we are in right now.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Once the church age is over and the tribulation begins, God will send Elijah himself as one of the two witnesses of Revelation.

Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

Revelation 11:3-6 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

1260 days = about 3.5 years

Elijah's mission, as was John the Baptist's mission, will be to prepare Israel for its Messiah.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

This time, however, the children of Israel will believe and be saved.

To summarize: Yes, John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy in Malachi 4:5, but he did not COMPLETELY fulfill it. It was conditional. "...if ye will receive it..." Much like how Jesus offered the kingdom to the Jews when He arrived the first time, they rejected it. "He hath a devil..."

So you think it is a partially fulfilled prophecy then. A lot of people believe that, the only problem is where Jesus himself said it was fulfilled. He said Elias has come already, AND that they knew him not. The Lord is recognizing that the Jews didn’t accept him as to who he was. Jesus didn’t say he would come again but said he is come already

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.  

Scripture usually makes it sort of clear if the prophecy is to be fulfilled in 2 parts, like the where he spoke the prophecy of Isiah 61. The Lord stopped at and the day of vengeance of our God;, because he wasn’t here for that yet. That is a 2 part prophecy. The Lord said that Elijah had ALREADY come and they rejected him. Elijah fulfilled his prophecy as John the Baptist.

Now could Elijah come a third time? he could, but nowhere in scripture does it state the identity of the two witnesses. a lot of people speculate and have some good theories as to who they are, but none can say with 100% proof of it. Especially in light of Matt 17:12.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: FervorForFaith on March 02, 2014, 03:44:28 pm
Thought I'd post this here.

After exhausting all possibilities, searching the scriptures for weeks on this matter and reading up on movie treatments like Rapture Palooza and this new Project Blue Beam "trumpet" sound with my wife (as well as watching some of Bryan's helpful rapture moment videos), I've finally had to put down my sinful pride and come to the conclusion that...

I was wrong on this issue. I apologize for any antagonism I caused. :-[


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on March 02, 2014, 04:07:38 pm
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

your good brother


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 02, 2014, 04:22:12 pm
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

your good brother

Also - just keep in mind that MAJOR war and famine come BEFORE persecution(for not taking the MOB, that is). Revelation 6 makes this clear. IOW, the time of Jacob's trouble is going to be great tribulation like NEVER before.

FFF - I too was in this same boat from 2009 to early 2013 - can't tell you all of the prideful attitude I exhibited over my embracing of the post-trib position over at PPF(which Mark and Kilika can attest to). It was as if I knew all of this knowledge at my fingertips, and wanted to yell it out from the Empire State Building...only to make a fool out of myself.

Keep in mind too - 1) It's NOT Satan(nor the Illuminati, Freemasons, etc) that unleashes the Antichrist(1st seal that kicks off everything, that is), but GOD that does so. 2) The unleashing of the Revelation judgments is just that...GOD'S judgment on the unbelieving world - IOW, why would he release these judgments on his bride? 3) The 7 year great tribulation will largely be focusing on the Jews/Israel - so it makes no sense over why the NT church would still be here.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: FervorForFaith on March 02, 2014, 08:23:36 pm
Truth be told, after I found all of the Biblical evidence pointing to the pre-trib view, I felt almost... stupid for ever believing post-trib (and I don't mean pre-wrath, a la Chris White, I mean full on post-trib, as in raptured at Armageddon post-trib)

And that's not to say post-tribbers are stupid or that they don't understand Bible doctrine. A lot of post-tribbers are genuinely saved (Kent Hovind, Scott Johnson, etc.) and have more comprehension than I do most of the time. All I'm saying is that when you look at it objectively, how can you come to a purely post-trib conclusion from the Bible? I do understand how one can come to a pre-wrath view, but ultimately pre-trib is the way it will work out.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 02, 2014, 09:45:44 pm
I do understand how one can come to a pre-wrath view, but ultimately pre-trib is the way it will work out.

Pre-wrath and pre-trib are all but one and the same(b/c God's judgments on this world get opened at the 1st seal of Rev 6) - don't let the "We're not post-trib, but we're pre-wrath b/c pre-trib is not the correct doctrine" people fool you.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: FervorForFaith on March 02, 2014, 10:15:58 pm
Pre-wrath and pre-trib are all but one and the same(b/c God's judgments on this world get opened at the 1st seal of Rev 6) - don't let the "We're not post-trib, but we're pre-wrath b/c pre-trib is not the correct doctrine" people fool you.

I agree.

I can see how people come to a conclusion like that, though. At least you can find verses that support "pre-wrath". Pure post-trib? Not one (unless you twist scriptures referring to everyday tribulations we go through as born again believers [which I did once upon a time])


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on March 02, 2014, 11:43:17 pm
Truth be told, after I found all of the Biblical evidence pointing to the pre-trib view, I felt almost... stupid for ever believing post-trib (and I don't mean pre-wrath, a la Chris White, I mean full on post-trib, as in raptured at Armageddon post-trib)

And that's not to say post-tribbers are stupid or that they don't understand Bible doctrine. A lot of post-tribbers are genuinely saved (Kent Hovind, Scott Johnson, etc.) and have more comprehension than I do most of the time. All I'm saying is that when you look at it objectively, how can you come to a purely post-trib conclusion from the Bible? I do understand how one can come to a pre-wrath view, but ultimately pre-trib is the way it will work out.

I mentioned this on another thread - personally, I fell for post-trib partly b/c I was reading out of one of those "bible societies" KJBs(no, they didn't change the texts, but they pulled magic tricks by referencing scriptures back and forth to make it look post-trib, including scriptures from Exodus that have NOTHING to do with end times prophecies. Those Thomas Nelson KJBs do the same). And partly b/c of my own rebellion - to sum it up in a nutshell, I was pre-trib initially when I was exposed to a mainstream end times message forum. Won't name the forum, but it was a controlled-opposition, Churchianity one where they played the "either your with our agendas or not" card, and just got too political instead of exposing the entire wicked system(ie-they acted like John McCain was some born-again believer). So after my stint there, I ASSUMED that pre-trib was heresy b/c of all the other wicked things they did. And not to mention too that there are wolves like John Hagee out there that are pre-trib(as well as other mainstream "evangelicals" like Falwell), so I assumed it was the wrong position.

Anyhow - yes, I too felt foolish when all was said and done last year(and finally settled on the pre-trib position after searching the scriptures, and brethren here further showing me the truth with more scriptures). Ultimately, the blame was on ME for not being PATIENT enough to pray, search the scriptures, and do other research on this.

Ultimately, "Search the scriptures..."


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: FervorForFaith on March 03, 2014, 09:40:15 pm
I mentioned this on another thread - personally, I fell for post-trib partly b/c I was reading out of one of those "bible societies" KJBs(no, they didn't change the texts, but they pulled magic tricks by referencing scriptures back and forth to make it look post-trib, including scriptures from Exodus that have NOTHING to do with end times prophecies. Those Thomas Nelson KJBs do the same). And partly b/c of my own rebellion - to sum it up in a nutshell, I was pre-trib initially when I was exposed to a mainstream end times message forum. Won't name the forum, but it was a controlled-opposition, Churchianity one where they played the "either your with our agendas or not" card, and just got too political instead of exposing the entire wicked system(ie-they acted like John McCain was some born-again believer). So after my stint there, I ASSUMED that pre-trib was heresy b/c of all the other wicked things they did. And not to mention too that there are wolves like John Hagee out there that are pre-trib(as well as other mainstream "evangelicals" like Falwell), so I assumed it was the wrong position.

Anyhow - yes, I too felt foolish when all was said and done last year(and finally settled on the pre-trib position after searching the scriptures, and brethren here further showing me the truth with more scriptures). Ultimately, the blame was on ME for not being PATIENT enough to pray, search the scriptures, and do other research on this.

Ultimately, "Search the scriptures..."

Admittedly, I was post-trib and eventually "pre-wrath" because the people I listened (and still listen) to (Scott Johnson, Kent Hovind, Chris White) are post-trib/pre-wrath.

But what really sealed the deal for me (apart from the Biblical evidence, of course) is this: I believe that a false Antichrist will be displayed to the world (I believe this to be Barack Obama) and the Antichrist will defeat him. And if people deny the pre-trib rapture of the body of Christ, it's that much easier for them to accept the Antichrist as the Christ, because:

1) He'll have visibly defeated a counterfeit Antichrist
2) He'll usher in peace afterward (pseudo-Christians will believe they are in the millennial reign)

Look at a guy like Alex Jones. He vehemently denies the pre-trib rapture, and is leading people into eventually accepting the Antichrist.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on March 04, 2014, 12:59:19 am
Quote
I believe that a false Antichrist will be displayed to the world (I believe this to be Barack Obama) and the Antichrist will defeat him.

Never heard that before. Where is that in the bible?  I think it deserves it's own thread for an explanation.


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: FervorForFaith on March 04, 2014, 06:22:58 am
Never heard that before. Where is that in the bible?  I think it deserves it's own thread for an explanation.

I'm no expert, but I think this passage points to it.

Daniel 11:21-23 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant. And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

This "vile person", being the Antichrist, overflows "they" with the arms of a flood. The "prince of the covenant" is also overflown, making him one of "they". What covenant is it talking about? Right after he overflows the prince of the covenant, it talks about a league made with him (the Antichrist).

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Doesn't say he makes a covenant with many, but rather that he CONFIRMS the covenant. That makes me believe that the covenant scripture is in reference to will already be written up and negotiated (by the false Antichrist "prince of the covenant") by the time the Antichrist arises. The Antichrist confirms that covenant and it goes through.

Hope that made some sense, haha :)


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Kilika on March 04, 2014, 12:11:19 pm
Yeah, it does make some sense. Thanks!  ;)

I see what your saying, that the verse actually mentions an interaction with the "vile person"(commonly thought to be a reference to the Antichrist) and "they"(I would say the "elite", the people in charge), "...they shall not give the honour...".

"...yea, also the prince of the covenant..." is indeed a reference to a third party. The question is, who is that "prince"? Is this a real person involved in the deal, or is it just a metaphor for the depth the action has in Israel making a deal against the true prince, Jesus Christ, to drive home the seriousness of such a deal.

The main issue I have so far with using Daniel in relation to end times prophecy is that like in chapter 11, it's talking about a series of rulers, and eventually it's about the rule of the "king of the north" over a southern king, and a covenant. Chapter 12 is a continuation of events, yet  at that point, it does appear to be talking about THE end in verses 1-4, but it says to "seal it up" until the end, then only mentions a time period but not really anything else.

My perception is that it's primarily a historical account of events in the time of Daniel, like "Cliff Notes", ending with saying basically there are more details that COULD be given, but suffice to say there will be more battles back and forth right up to the bitter end for the world, so no need to divulge any more details, so it gets sealed up from then till the final end. It comes across as Daniel is told some details, but not much else and is more or less told not to worry about the rest, that in the end it will all come together like it's suppose to.

Can you read the book of Daniel as an end times prophecy? In part, I think so. There appears to me to be many references that are too similar to just be a similarity. But then evil is evil, right? So we see similarities among evil people throughout scripture. Same unbelief, different people in different times.

Does that make sense?  ;)


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on April 27, 2014, 03:59:37 am
Pre Trib Rapture Moment 26: What Will Happen To Babies At The Rapture?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC9ZEPHyrbU


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Mark on April 27, 2014, 04:09:26 am
Pre Trib Rapture Moment 27: Making A Left Behind Movie?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zj9h3CCRaw


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 27, 2014, 09:02:47 am

Since 1980(when the "religious right"/"moral majority" formed), the Apostate Church largely set their attention on exposing abortion and sodomy. Yes, it's been all good they have, but nonetheless by doing so, they just completely ignored preaching the gospel to the lost world.

And now since Obama came into office - look at how many states have all of a sudden signed (compromised)abortion restrictions into law(which has re-heated this "culture wars" debate). Yeah, forget about the part where previously, George W. Bush appointed TWO pro-abortion USSC justices, AND funded Planned Parenthood. And to boot - these abortion restrictions are coming to nought as appeallette courts have all but favored these pro-abortion groups(except for Texas - but nonetheless TX has given a big platform to Wendy Davis - something this state NEVER would have done previously).

Pt being that yes, I do think that babies will be raptured - and ultimately this same Apostate Church could act like it's these "crazy" KJB/tribulation saints that had something to do with their "disappearances"(as the AC could likely say how some "crazies" "aborted" them).

As for making a Left Behind video - I'm strongly considering it too - at the very least, they'll have this warning(especially telling them to read the KJB), AND our KJBs will be left behind too. :)


Title: WOW! PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Boldhunter on March 06, 2015, 04:53:54 pm
http://youtu.be/TfwUXKP1qHo

This is worth being prayerful about.
Key dates/Feasts for September 2015 coincide with eclipse and Elul 29 and Rosh Hashana Feast of Trumpets:

September 13 - Elul 29
September 14 - Trumpets (partial eclipse)
10 Days of Awe
September 23 - Day of Atonement
September 28 - Feast of Tabernacles ("super" blood moon)


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 15, 2017, 01:55:19 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5Kfbf8DMAs


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on April 30, 2017, 06:22:54 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj0gbiROQsU


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 16, 2017, 12:20:38 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcpsFbOGVUM&t=2435s


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on May 21, 2017, 06:23:32 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq9ckYpZJe0


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 02, 2017, 08:34:30 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUxKBIFwRBU


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on June 30, 2017, 01:23:02 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8rmiZRzqfg


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 06, 2017, 11:35:34 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lubUNA2uX0U


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on July 15, 2017, 08:53:12 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKGd6-I5VQ8


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on August 24, 2017, 09:23:33 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyC9EiX5tuI


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on September 11, 2017, 07:05:11 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dbsgJ5fHJc&t=0s


Title: Re: PreTrib Rapture Moment
Post by: Psalm 51:17 on October 09, 2017, 09:44:07 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRjF3Lojh4w