23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Joel 2

I believe that the end time church will repeat all of the works of the early church and with greater intensity. I cannot say whether or not it is already happening but in my heart I am confident that the end of this age will leave no room for doubt. My greatest disagreement with Baptist religeon is their stubborn belief that God is not able or willing to do the things He did in the 1st century.

I finally got around to looking over this thread and this is a good topic that in my view should be revisited.

When I make a recomendation to a novice Bible reader I always advise them to read Romans and 1st John. These two books clearly explain what a Christian is and how to obtain Christianity. Much of what is there is both beautiful and easily understood.

I love the 4 gospels but one must master some of the knowledge in the book of Romans in order to understand the gospel. The Roman road is the Baptist way and it is the correct one.

I`m surprised it wasn`t your pick 

Is this you on this video?

I don`t know the particulars but they would say its symbolic rather then literal.

What does this mean?

What did you get out of this video when you watched it?

Yes. You are right about that and they have always been doing it. I`ve had some conversations in the past with Preterists. They are frustrating but when I considered what they had to say I came to believe that at various times in history the table has been set and ready. The Preterist argument is interesting because one is able to see that the end of the age could have came in the first century if enough Jews had believed.

When you consider the sequence of 1st century events,what Jesus said, and what the apostles believed about the last days, it becomes apparent that the possibility of 1st century end of age had to be a real possibility. It was all part of God keeping His part of the covenant. For me it adds another dimension to the brilliance of Gods plan. When you understand what I`m trying to point out it just amazes.

To reword, what I meant was that the work of what the Bible calls the anti-christ spirit and the little anti-christs it creates is not the same thing as the literal anti-christ that is coming. Some people don`t believe in a literal anti-christ.

The two have little to do with each other. The Bible tells us about the anti christ spirit which is the root of all the false christs and gods in the world. The real anti christ, the devils version of messiah will be in a league all his own. The rest are amateur compared to him.

Thanks for the feedback though. I wish that you and others on this list would share your views a bit more. I keep hoping to facilitate some discussion and would love to see more opinion about anti christ.

Just to bring up an interesting sidebar, every time the US has pressured Israel to make concessions to Palestine a natural disaster has struck the US. The data goes back to the first time it happened during Carter`s time in the white house.

We have this huge hurricane, what just happened in Israel 

I probably shouldn`t want it but I can`t wait to see the fruit that the WCC an the Catholics will produce. I expect apostate Christianity to be betrayed by the anti christ and destroyed. But have to see how it all plays out. The Bible warns not to wish for the Day of the Lord to come but I still want it. Maybe its just the weakness of the flesh to want it but I dunno.

Thats kinda spooky but I wish they would just build the thing. I probably shouldn`t want it to be done but I do 

What does this thread reveal about the anti christ?

I enjoy researching church history. I`ve often wished I had more time for it. Mostly I did it when I was debating some Catholics who were demanding to use non Biblical sources. It was fun using their own sources against them.

It`s always a little funny to me as well when I see Baptists claiming that historical Christianity was the Baptists    This guy does at least admit that they didn`t call themselves Baptist even tho they were 
I`ve never understood what Baptists gain from such claims although I`ve met some who were pretty much implying that Baptists are the true church.

My roots are both Catholic and Baptist so it`s always struck me as being like a jealousy thing on the part of Baptist toward Catholic and it`s almost like taking a page from the Catholic playbook. No offense intended. I`ve been inter denominational my whole adult life but when people ask me what I am I always tell them I`m a Baptist.

I actually love the propaganda and sometimes I tell people that the Baptists were the first church. When I get to the punch line I ask them if they ever heard of John the Baptist 

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


Romans 5

I really do like seeing what other Christian think about Biblical issues so I appriciate the feedback. In spite of my disdain for the various holidays I try to avoid being openly critical of others about it. I think it tends to do more harm then good because it plays into the negative stereotype perceptions of Christians. If a philosophical conversation pops up I`m pretty open because in that situation it doesn`t come across as threatening or meanspirited. I relate well to people who for various reasons don`t enjoy christmas and I very much enjoy explaining to people why it`s ok to not like the holiday. Often times you can find people who have guilt because they don`t have the happiness and joy the christmas mythology is supposed to give everybody.

Regarding the verse, this one along with Romans 14 can be used to justify celebrating or not celebrating. Romans 14 cuts both ways.

I think it strengthens your argument to add the proper context and perspective although doing so opens another can of worms so to speak. The issues that Paul addresses with the Romans and the Colossians are a bit different then ones we face today. There has to be some allowence for that.

That being said, near as I can tell early Christians did not observe pagan holidays because they all revolved around worship of false gods. One can argue that the modern holidays do not involve idol worship but the pagan roots are there and if the hair is split one can argue that it is idol worship. That is all a matter of ones heart in my view.

Paul did allow the eating of meat that had been sacrificed to idols and he also allowed not eating it. Implies that some of them may have ate meals at pagan temples which would have involved attending the celebration, eating the food, not offending the host but not participating in the ceremonies and idolatry (my opinion). It also could be that the idol meat came from the local market and wasn`t properly labled as such.
Wouldn`t always be possible to tell if the meat was tainted by idolatry or not.

The worm can is this. Ok, so they didn`t celebrate christmas but just what were these holydays, moons, and sabbath days? The fact is, Paul is talking about Jewish holidays and they were observed and enjoyed by early Christians both Jewish and Gentile, some of the Gentiles, probably most of them were breaking some of the food rules  and Paul supported their right to do so in the epistles 

The early church was rooted in a lot of Jewish culture. When you track down the early church traditions that is what you find. Unfortunately for us the Roman church purged it all out and replaced it with the paganism that pollutes Christianity.

Myself personally, I dislike all the Gentile holidays except for Thanksgiving and my dislike for them is pretty intense. Probably more intense then yours. I actually like the practice of calling it the holiday instead of christmas which sort of moves the thing backwards towards its Roman roots.

But, I`ve known Godly people who pass out halloween candy, easter candy and christmas candy who I would easily esteem more worthy then I am.


I got another verse for ya 

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days

Colossians 2:16


It would be fun to know what this verse means to you.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Titus 1:15

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Romans 14:22

Be thankful you have a job is a common sentiment across the country. I often hear that very thing at my place of employment. I`m sure the elitists love that saying as it is helpful to the cause of the employment slavery that most people have to deal with. Most of us are landless and have to obtain one of these corporate slave jobs in order to buy water and food. Water isn`t free, we can`t farm, we have to buy a shelter or else pay for the supplies to build one. None of these things are available to the landless peasants unless they have some money.

Meanwhile the corporate slave owners have for many years now, enriched themselves by taking away from their hired slaves. They have taken away rights, jobs, wages, benefits. Every year the peasants are working for less because the corporation inflates the money supply. The corporation fires peasants and gives jobs to cheaper peasant slaves overseas. The corporation takes advantage of the chaos it has created by taking away benefits previously given to the slaves. The corporation is doing very well and is richer then ever before even as it works to oppress it`s slaves and deny them even the freedom to think their own thoughts and opinions.

70% disengaged sounds like a lowball estimate to me. Workers and the 20% unemployed workers are a smoking volcano. The corporation knows it and has it`s corporate government preparing for the unrest. When it erupts it`s going to be very bad and it will distract this place from the real danger that lurks overseas.

All of this would have sounded crazy even just a few years ago but anybody who understands what is going on will get what I am saying here.

There is a big difference between exploring the Jewish culture of the early church and following Hebrew Roots heresies. I`ll elaborate if anyone is interested.

A sword is upon their horses, and upon their chariots, and upon all the mingled people that are in the midst of her


Jeremiah 50:37

The people should fear God and His judgement, I`m not sure this place will still be here to witness the time of Jacobs trouble. I`m pretty concerned that it won`t be. The West has ceased to be the center of Christianity, the heart of it if you can accept the analogy, has moved into the 3rd world and it is often seen in scripture that the righteous will go through the judgement that comes upon the unrighteous. Kinda the wrong place at the wrong time thing and that is what worrys me. I don`t pray for this place because I know God has already made up his mind. It`s already too late.

"Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

The 7 seals of Revelation follow a sequence that is consistent with the signs of Matthew 24. The first 4 seals are consistent with Matthew 24:6-8. These events end with the death of 25% of the world population Rev 6:8. In my opinion it will reach the 25% in the aftermath of WW3. WW3 is preceded by increasing tension among nations Rev 6:4, and economic collapse Rev 6:5-6. The aftermath of WW3 in my opinion creates the hunger and disease of Rev 6:8. Nuclear war driving dangerous animals into contact with people Rev 6:8. All of it becoming a pseudo Armagedden that will bring out the anti christ.

Then you have the false peace, anti christ and they say peace and safety fulfilling the requirement of 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-5.

The time of Jacobs trouble is the 5th seal, Matthew 24:9.

It`s not necessary for this place to be here for that.

Even if the pre trib idea were correct (it isn`t), you still don`t get a Rapture until after the events of the first 4 seals produce the death of 25% of the worlds population.

Let`s regroup, ok I`ll bite, Jesus died once for someones sins if not everyones sins.

Bad news but whats the point?

As I continue to ponder your question and forgive me for rambling on, I think it really a pretty decent thing to challenge with.

The Bible tells us that Jesus died and died once for all the worlds sin, hopefully no references are needed  . It`s all about what it takes to get the salvation 

You didn`t think I was a catholic? Some say they believe in multiple crucifixians. I always wanted to ask one about that but have never been able to advance a conversation far enough to make the inquiry.

Seriously you are aren`t one of those universal salvation guys are you? Surely not. I keep hoping they are right but they have never been able to pursuede me.

Clarify who the someone is. Some believe that Jesus died once for the sins of all sinners whether they believe or not thus no one suffers in hell and all will be saved regardless, Hitler, Stalin etc all saved.

I know you don`t agree with that ideal but my point is that as the Bible says Jesus died once for the sins, all sin, including the sins of the lost. Nevertheless this fact doesn`t produce universal salvation.

I really don`t think it`s a good question and was hoping to hear more of your point of view. No tricks are necessary to get me to express mine.

Thanks for response though. Nice to see something besides a video 

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 18:24

"As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth."

Jeremiah 51:49

The anti christ will persecute apostate Christians right along with the rest. They will abandon their faith because they will think it will enable them to survive.

The Bible said judgement begins at the house of God. So, first the persecution then comes the Day of the Lord. Apostate Christians and Pre tribbers will not be ready for it.