Dispensational Questions

[FervorForFaith]

Hey all,

I've been conflicted on this issue for a little while now, and I wanted to get some clarification. I figured you guys might be able to help answer some of my questions. While they might seem like pointed questions, these are legitimate questions on my part, as I want to be sure I have non-salvation doctrine correct.

1) For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Malachi 3:6)

Now dispensationalism teaches that there are a couple different time periods where a couple different gospels were taught:

Pre-Law -> Law -> Grace -> TOJT -> Millennial Kingdom

Pre-Law was by faith (Noah, Abraham, etc.), Law was by faith and the deeds of the Law (Moses, David, etc.), Grace is by faith (the salvation message), the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Tribulation) is by faith and the deeds of the Law, and the Millennial Kingdom is by the deeds of the Law.

My first question is: Since God never changes, why would His salvation message change?

2) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Galatians 3:24-25)

Assuming that the Pre-Law -> Law -> Grace is true, after Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection, why would there ever be a need to go back to the Law (particularly in the TOJT)? The faith is already come, is it not? I understand that the Tribulation period is primarily for the true Jews to accept their Messiah, but why are they bound to the Law again?

3) Assuming the Law does return during the TOJT, are Gentiles that get saved during that time held to the Law, as well? Meaning the sabbath day returns, the Levitical diet is re-instituted, etc. Do they become like the proselytes?

I'd really appreciate any help on answering these. Again, these aren't pointed questions. I'm not trying to "ruffle feathers" or anything like that. I know they might sound like that when you read them, but I want to have non-salvation doctrine down pat.

[Kilika]

5   If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
James 1:5-7 (KJB)

Desiring the milk of the Word is never anything in my opinion to apologize for. "Search the scriptures..."

Since God never changes, why would His salvation message change?

As you said, God does not change. My understanding is the law was given to His people Israel to show them they could not meet the demands of the law, but salvation has always been in effect by faith.

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16 (KJB)

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20 (KJB)

13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14  For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
16  Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Romans 4:13-16 (KJB)

They are under the law because they already had their chance by faith, so now in their sins they must live by the law, as the law is for the unbelieving. Once they believe and are saved, I believe they would no longer be held to the law, just like it is now.

9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10  For wh0remongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1 Timothy 1:9-11 (KJB)

[FervorForFaith]

As you said, God does not change. My understanding is the law was given to His people Israel to show them they could not meet the demands of the law, but salvation has always been in effect by faith.

That's something that I've kinda been going back and forth with. I want to understand this whole dispensationalism thing, but wouldn't that take away from the actual salvation message? Now the salvation message is that we can't keep the law, so we're doomed, because we sin. We need Jesus to pay our sin debt. If in the OT they could be saved by faith AND the law, then why did we need Jesus in the first place? If all we needed to do is have faith and keep the law? If we could do that then what's the point of Jesus dying?

Also, what about this? "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." Galatians 3:21

Like I said, I just want to get to the bottom of this. These aren't pointed remarks, I just want to understand this doctrine.

Also, my wife made a comment while we were watching some of Bryan Denliger's videos. He was quoting Revelation 14:12: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

She said that the verse doesn't necessarily mean that it's faith and works during the tribulation, because of the verses in 1 John:

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:3-4

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:2-3

If Revelation 14:12 is used to justify faith and works, what about the verses in 1 John? They are so similar, and in 1 John we are under the "age of grace," are we not?

[Kilika]

Yes...

8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8,9 (KJB)

I believe scripture makes it clear that it is by faith, and for those who are truly born-again, they WILL have the works as a result of their faith. Works are a by product of your faith. The works show your faith. Keeping the commandments is done by having faith because man isn't able to keep the whole law. Mankind already failed at that.

Here's the thing though. Those "good works", being a result of your faith, those works will come without you thinking about it. Your faith moves you to act in a way that results in good works through loving God and neighbor. There is no measuring stick on works. One cannot say some works are sufficient while others are not. God decides what is good works, not us. This is why it says that those who have a lot have nothing over, and those who have little have no lack.

See, we are not to judge a person's salvation. God does that. So, that means we shouldn't judge if a person's works are acceptable. But those works will not get you into heaven. The works of the unbelieving are irrelevant. God doesn't see those, the same as He doesn't hear their prayers either, unless it's a sincere prayer of repentance. So only the "good works" of believers are seen by God.

You must have faith, with all your heart, to be saved. Once you are saved, being born-again with the Holy Ghost, THEN the good works will follow.

Commandments? Yes, Jesus says, "if you love me, keep my commandments". Well, we know that man cannot keep the commandments, so how is that possible? What did Jesus tell the lawyer about how to be saved?

25  And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26   He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27  And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28  And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Luke 10:25-28 (KJB)

[Mark]

1) For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Malachi 3:6)

I think your just having an issue with that verse. The Lord doesn’t change, and he hasn’t. That doesn’t mean the way he communicates with us or his message to us can’t change. There was a time when we didn’t eat any kind of meat what so ever. Then we could anything at all that we wanted. The Lord made the Law for the Jews, and they couldn’t eat say shell fish. That right there is different changes, yet it’s the same Lord.

Before the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, the Law was in full effect for the Jews. They had to follow the whole thing to the letter, plus have faith. After wards its saved by Grace through Faith and nothing else. If you go just on that alone that is 2 dispensations, and the Lord hasn’t changed.

Now after the Rapture, there is another dispensation. You have to be saved by Faith AND not take the Mark of the Beast AND not worship his image. That is different than what we have now.

[FervorForFaith]

I think your just having an issue with that verse. The Lord doesn’t change, and he hasn’t. That doesn’t mean the way he communicates with us or his message to us can’t change. There was a time when we didn’t eat any kind of meat what so ever. Then we could anything at all that we wanted. The Lord made the Law for the Jews, and they couldn’t eat say shell fish. That right there is different changes, yet it’s the same Lord.

That's a pretty good point.

Before the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, the Law was in full effect for the Jews. They had to follow the whole thing to the letter, plus have faith. After wards its saved by Grace through Faith and nothing else. If you go just on that alone that is 2 dispensations, and the Lord hasn’t changed.

I have bit of an issue with the bold portion. The reason is because nobody can keep the whole Law. It's impossible. If it were possible, Jesus would have had no reason to die on the cross, no? If the only way for a person to be saved back in the OT was for them to have faith AND keep the whole Law, nobody would have been saved.

Now after the Rapture, there is another dispensation. You have to be saved by Faith AND not take the Mark of the Beast AND not worship his image. That is different than what we have now.

Now is it faith and the Law? Or just faith and not taking the mark and not worshiping the image? Because Bryan keeps saying that the Law is in full effect. Meaning the sabbath, Levitical diet, etc.

[Mark]

I have bit of an issue with the bold portion. The reason is because nobody can keep the whole Law. It's impossible. If it were possible, Jesus would have had no reason to die on the cross, no? If the only way for a person to be saved back in the OT was for them to have faith AND keep the whole Law, nobody would have been saved.

That is kind of the whole point. No one could ever keep the whole law or all the requirements that went along with them. That’s why the Lord says,
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; . They still had to follow the Law, and perform the sacrifices. There was a time before the Law, that was still a different dispensation.

Now is it faith and the Law? Or just faith and not taking the mark and not worshiping the image? Because Bryan keeps saying that the Law is in full effect. Meaning the sabbath, Levitical diet, etc.

During the Time of Jacobs trouble, the Law will be reinstituted by Israel for Israel. Not by the Lord. It will be meaningless. During this time you have to be saved by Grace through Faith and works. With works being to not take the Mark and Worship the Image. Its the same but there is a provision added, thus making it a new dispensation.

[Psalm 51:17]

Yep, the NIV and those other perversions have translated to where you have to keep the law in order to keep your salvation - and they've been very subtle in their deceptions.

[Kilika]

I have bit of an issue with the bold portion. The reason is because nobody can keep the whole Law. It's impossible. If it were possible, Jesus would have had no reason to die on the cross, no? If the only way for a person to be saved back in the OT was for them to have faith AND keep the whole Law, nobody would have been saved.

And why is it impossible? And why was the law given if man could not keep it? Because of the actions of Adam and Eve in the garden.

That caused all flesh to be corrupt and sinful, thus already guilty of violating God's law. That's the key, we are guilty from the actions in the garden, thus man never stood a chance of keeping the whole law, as they were already guilty of violating it. That sin passed to all mankind. There is only one solution, and has always been one solution for man, and that is a saviour to meet the demands of the law for us, or we are doomed, having already failed.

It has always been, if it were not for God's grace, we would all perish. Thank you Jesus!