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Where Was the Garden of Eden Located?

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Mark
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« on: March 19, 2014, 09:01:10 am »

Where Was the Garden of Eden Located?

Most Bible commentaries state that the site of the Garden of Eden was in the Middle East, situated somewhere near where the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers are today. This is based on the description given in Genesis 2:8–14:

    The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden. . . . Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads. The name of the first is Pishon. . . . The name of the second river is Gihon. . . . The name of the third river is Hiddekel [Tigris]. . . . The fourth river is the Euphrates.

Even the great theologian John Calvin struggled over the exact location of the Garden of Eden. In his commentary on Genesis he states:

    Moses says that one river flowed to water the garden, which afterwards would divide itself into four heads. It is sufficiently agreed among all, that two of these heads are the Euphrates and the Tigris; for no one disputes that . . . (Hiddekel) is the Tigris. But there is a great controversy respecting the other two. Many think, that Pison and Gihon are the Ganges and the Nile; the error, however, of these men is abundantly refuted by the distance of the positions of these rivers. Persons are not wanting who fly across even to the Danube; as if indeed the habitation of one man stretched itself from the most remote part of Asia to the extremity of Europe. But since many other celebrated rivers flow by the region of which we are speaking, there is greater probability in the opinion of those who believe that two of these rivers are pointed out, although their names are now obsolete. Be this as it may, the difficulty is not yet solved. For Moses divides the one river which flowed by the garden into four heads. Yet it appears, that the fountains of the Euphrates and the Tigris were far distant from each other.1

Calvin recognized that the description given in Genesis 2 concerning the location of the Garden of Eden does not fit with what is observed regarding the present Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. God’s Word makes it clear that the Garden of Eden was located where there were four rivers coming from one head. No matter how one tries to fit this location in the Middle East today, it just can’t be done.

Interestingly, Calvin goes on to say:

    From this difficulty, some would free themselves by saying that the surface of the globe may have been changed by the deluge. . . .2

This is a major consideration that needs to be taken into account. The worldwide, catastrophic Flood of Noah’s day would have destroyed the surface of the earth. If most of the sedimentary strata over the earth’s surface (many thousands of feet thick in places) is the result of this global catastrophe as creationists believe, then we would have no idea where the Garden of Eden was originally located—the earth’s surface totally changed as a result of the Flood.

Not only this, but underneath the region where the present Tigris and Euphrates Rivers are located there exists hundreds of feet of sedimentary strata—a significant amount of which is fossiliferous. Such fossil-bearing strata had to be laid down at the time of the Flood.

Therefore, no one can logically suggest that the area where the present Tigris and Euphrates Rivers are today is the location of the Garden of Eden, for this area is sitting on Flood strata containing billions of dead things (fossils). The perfect Garden of Eden can’t be sitting on billions of dead things before sin entered the world!

This being the case, the question then is why are there rivers named Tigris and Euphrates in the Middle East today?
Map

Many wrongly conclude that the Garden of Eden was somewhere in the Middle East based on the names of the rivers in Genesis 2.

In my native country of Australia, one will recognize many names that are also used in England (e.g., Newcastle). The reason is that when the settlers came out from England to Australia, they used names they were familiar with in England to name new places/towns in Australia.

Another example is the names given to many rivers in the United States. There is the Thames River in Connecticut, the Severn River in Maryland, and the Trent River in North Carolina—all named for prominent rivers in the UK.

In a similar way, when Noah and his family came out of the ark after it landed in the area we today call the Middle East (the region of the Mountains of Ararat), it would not have been surprising for them to use names they were familiar with from the pre-Flood world (e.g., Tigris and Euphrates), to name places and rivers, etc., in the world after the Flood.

Ultimately, we don’t know where the Garden of Eden was located. To insist that the Garden was located in the area around the present Tigris and Euphrates Rivers is to deny the catastrophic effects of the global Flood of Noah’s day, and to allow for death before sin.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab3/where-was-eden
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2014, 06:40:29 pm »

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Kilika
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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2014, 03:36:43 am »

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To insist that the Garden was located in the area around the present Tigris and Euphrates Rivers is to deny the catastrophic effects of the global Flood of Noah’s day, and to allow for death before sin.

What kind of statement is that? Very strange.

That whole statement is suspect at best. "To insist"? It's what scripture says clearly, by names. There isn't another Tigris river, and going by what scripture says where the garden was isn't denying any flood damage. That's a straw man argument.

Yes, no question the flood changed things. So what? Just because a flood levels terrain or changes the path of rivers doesn't mean anything.

Not surprising though, as I've seen issues with that "answers in genesis" site before. Basically, just another churchianity site spreading falsehoods and doubt. Typical of church-goers.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2014, 03:52:01 am »

that statement is in response to people saying that Edan was in the Iraq somewhere, but sitting on top of a fossil layer. Thus if we found Eden, there should be zero fossil layers underneath as it was the first civilized area on the planet. I think your misconstruing what he is saying.

Eden could never fit in the middle east of today. The only thing that fits is the names of 2 rivers. And as the article stated, where man travels we keep naming things over and over again with the same names. For all anyone knows. Eden could have been in the middle of Texas, Flood happens, Noah drifts for over a year and lands in the middle east. 
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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2014, 12:50:08 pm »

No, I don't think I am. You say fossil layer, well, those fossil layers is what "they" go by. And those layers hold all kinds of archeological rubble from past societies, which just by the amount of stuff found in a given area, you can tell where large populations lived versus small villages, etc. So they basically know where humans first were congregating. And the area with those indications are in fact in the Middle East. Is that proof where the garden was? Nope, don't think so, but it does suggest it, simply by the age of stuff found in an area.

Whatever, that's not my initial point...(I consider this topic as the same as the Rapture debate; knowing the truth or not while in the flesh makes no difference in salvation)

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is to deny the catastrophic effects of the global Flood of Noah’s day, and to allow for death before sin.

That statement is what I am confused by. I don't understand just what the person is trying to say by putting it that way.
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2014, 01:04:52 pm »

again, it has to do with the fossil layer. If we knew Eden was in the exact center of Texas, and we went and dug it, we should find ZERO fossil evidence underneath it. There shouldn't be any layers with anything dead underneath it. Every where in the Middle East in all of the excavations you find fossils of civilization. That shoudlnt exist in Eden. or more to the effect under Eden. Because if there was, then that would put death before sin, and NOTHING died BEFORE Adam sinned. Do you see it now?  Huh Almost the same as with Gap Theory, you cant have anything die before Adam's sin.
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2014, 01:19:16 pm »

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we should find ZERO fossil evidence underneath it. There shouldn't be any layers with anything dead underneath it.

Agreed.

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and NOTHING died BEFORE Adam sinned. Do you see it now?

Right! Yeah, I see. Why didn't he say that?  Roll Eyes Sorry, sometimes a bit slow!  Wink
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2014, 01:23:43 pm »

So, that being the case, where then have they reached a "layer" where there are no fossils, where they stop finding fossils?

One would find stuff for a time as you dig down, especially in an area that has been inhabited for so long. And we still don't know just how the flood changed the terrain, which I think is a strong chance that fossils ended up getting mixed in with older soil that had no fossils yet, but there SHOULD be a point down far enough where there are no more fossils, right?
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2014, 01:30:25 pm »

So, that being the case, where then have they reached a "layer" where there are no fossils, where they stop finding fossils?

One would find stuff for a time as you dig down, especially in an area that has been inhabited for so long. And we still don't know just how the flood changed the terrain, which I think is a strong chance that fossils ended up getting mixed in with older soil that had no fossils yet, but there SHOULD be a point down far enough where there are no more fossils, right?

well let me ask you this. Adam and Eve lived in a garden, how much fossils would you expect to find? Also we find stuff where things shouldnt be all the time. Google ooparts. Just how does a metal cup get buried in 175,000 year old coal....
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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2014, 01:32:18 pm »

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but there SHOULD be a point down far enough where there are no more fossils, right?
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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2014, 01:47:16 pm »



you should hit a spot like that everywhere. But look at it this way. The Ark drifted for over a year on raging currents and waves. It didnt stay over the same spot. When they left the Ark, they started to name things again with names that was already used. We do this everywhere we go. Thats the whole point of the article. You cant say that Edan was in Iraq based on the name of 2 rivers, especially given the fact that with a global flood that destroyed the planet surface, those rivers would not exist afterward. Noah would have no idea where he landed.
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2014, 01:59:13 pm »

That's a ton of assumptions about things we know nothing of based on scant details in scripture. But I do get your point that things should be all spread out, that the ark wouldn't stay necessarily in the same region. We just don't know what the currents were like, so we have really no way to know till God specifically says where.

Names used over and over? Yeah, I get that too. Humans aren't very original. They don't like change, regardless of what Obama and his minions think, but I digress.

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You cant say that Edan was in Iraq based on the name of 2 rivers,

Well, you can speculate based on existing evidence, whatever that remaining evidence may indicate.

The two rivers with identical names found in scripture is not proof itself, yes, but it's circumstantial evidence that can't be overlooked or dismissed. One can make the case it's too much coincidence.

And there is in fact a third known ancient river found in association with those two, the Gihon. The forth is suspected by some to have been found also.

After so many pieces of circumstantial evidence, you start to have a case!
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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2014, 02:15:07 pm »

That's a ton of assumptions about things we know nothing of based on scant details in scripture. But I do get your point that things should be all spread out, that the ark wouldn't stay necessarily in the same region. We just don't know what the currents were like, so we have really no way to know till God specifically says where.

Names used over and over? Yeah, I get that too. Humans aren't very original. They don't like change, regardless of what Obama and his minions think, but I digress.

Well, you can speculate based on existing evidence, whatever that remaining evidence may indicate.

The two rivers with identical names found in scripture is not proof itself, yes, but it's circumstantial evidence that can't be overlooked or dismissed. One can make the case it's too much coincidence.

And there is in fact a third known ancient river found in association with those two, the Gihon. The forth is suspected by some to have been found also.

After so many pieces of circumstantial evidence, you start have a case!

I wouldnt even call it circumstantial evidence. I can go to a town called Medina does that mean i live in Saudi Arabia?  The Gihon? you mean the one that encompasses the whole land of Ethiopia? I dont think we will ever know where Eden was until after we are raptured. The Flood destroyed it and all traces of it. 
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2014, 03:22:40 am »

It doesn't matter one way or the other. What we need to concern ourselves with is not the beginning but the ending. Curious topic no doubt, but that's it.

You go to Bagdad, you just might be in Arizona!  Wink
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