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The Extradimensional Nature of God

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« on: July 22, 2015, 01:26:56 pm »

I've been studying about the 4th dimension thing the last couple of days - are you sure it's ONLY TIME? B/c from what alot I've gathered, it's actually space-time.(3 dimensions + time, that is)

This is from a Christian Apologetics web site...

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/xdimgod.html

Introduction
There has been a lot of speculation about possible intelligent alien life in the universe. Some of this speculation has centered around the idea that these might be extradimensional beings. It turns out that the God of the Bible fits such a description. He can simultaneously hear and answer all the prayers that all people pray at all times. Not only that, but he can see all actions of all individuals - even those whose actions are done behind closed doors. Is this just wishful Christian thinking or is this possible within the framework of any possible existence?

How Can God Do That?
Christianity makes some rather remarkable claims about the abilities of God. From a human perspective, the idea that any being can do these kinds of actions seems preposterous. However, since God is "outside of the box," we need to think outside the box.

Existing outside the box
There is much evidence from both the Bible and from science that demonstrates God must exist and operate in dimensions of space and time other than those to which we are confined. God could not have created the universe if He were only a part of it. The Bible says the universe cannot contain Him (1).

According to particle physics and relativity, at least ten dimensions of space existed at the creation of the universe (2). Three of these dimensions (plus time) formed the space-time manifold that we can directly observe. The other six of these dimensions exist within the universe as incredibly compact dimensions of space. God must be able to operate in all of those ten dimensions plus more in order to have created the universe. A verse from the book of Hebrews suggests God created the universe out of some of the dimensions of space and time which are not visible to us (3).

The God of the Bible is invisible and cannot be seen except if He reveals Himself to us in a three-dimensional form that we can see. A being which exists in dimensions beyond our three spatial dimensions would be invisible to creatures (us) that can only exist in the confines of our universe (4).

Acting outside of time
The God of the Bible is described as omnipotent. If God were confined to three dimensions of space and one dimension of time, then He could be in only one place at one time. The God of the Bible is described as knowing all that we do (5). We can hide nothing from God. A three-dimensional God would not have the ability to see through walls (Can you?) and could not know what happens outside of his sight.

Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time (6). Not only space, but also time has a beginning - at the moment of creation. Studies in particle physics have shown that our dimension of time is really only half a dimension, since time can only move forward (7) (forget the time travel movies - this is scientifically impossible). If God existed in only one dimension of time, then He would have had to have been created at one point. The Bible says God was not created, but has existed from eternity past to eternity future. The Bible also suggests God created time and was acting before time began (Cool, confirming that God exists either outside of time altogether or in at least two dimensions of time. In addition, the Bible states God can compress or expand our time line (9), based upon what He wants to do. For God to turn a day into 1000 years and 1000 years into a day requires that He exist external to our dimension of time.

A three dimensional God would be unable to hear all of our prayers, since He could not be everywhere at once (10). In addition, a three dimensional God could not perform any of the signs and miracles of the Bible, since He would be confined to the laws of physics of our three-dimensional universe, which make no allowance for miracles.

God model
We cannot visualize a God who exists in dimensions beyond our own, but we can look at a model of a universe in which there are fewer dimensions than ours and extrapolate to that of an extradimensional God.

Imagine we are the observers of a universe which contains only two dimensions of space and one dimension of time. All things in this universe exist in a single plane (i.e., everything is flat). We observe this two dimensional universe from a three dimensional universe, and therefore, have one dimension more than the creatures that live in this two dimensional universe.

Mr. & Mrs. Flat
For this demonstration, we are pretending this page (or monitor image) is part of the universe of Mr. and Mrs. Flat. The Flat family are confined to the plane of this page and can only move within this plane. They can neither see nor interact with any part of the third dimension of a three-dimensional world.

Whenever Mr. Flat looks at Mrs. Flat, he sees only one side of her at a time. In this two-dimensional universe, she appears to him as a line segment. In order to see all of Mrs. Flat, Mr. Flat must walk all the way around his wife. From each angle, Mr. Flat will see only one or two line segments of differing lengths which compose Mrs. Flat. A complete picture of Mrs. Flat can only be formed in the mind of Mr. Flat. However, we, as observers from a three-dimensional universe can see the entirety of Mrs. Flat at one time. Not only can we see all of Mrs. Flat, but all of Mr. Flat at one instant in time. We can even see inside Mrs. Flat, something that Mr. Flat could never see, unless he were to cut her open. Likewise, God, with only one extra dimension, can simultaneously see all sides and the insides of each one of us (11).

Mrs. Flat hides in a two dimensional room Mrs. Flat wants to have a moment to herself, so she goes into a room and locks the door. Mr. Flat cannot see her, because she is surrounded by four walls. However, we are able to see her, because her walls do not extend into the third dimension of our universe. Likewise, an extradimensional God can see us at all times, even if we try to hide behind our three dimensional walls.

A god who is not extradimensional would not be able to observe us at all times, as stated in the Bible.

I would like to extend this model to describe a three-dimensional god in this two-dimensional universe. For simplicity, we will describe this god as a cube. This god, being three-dimensional, can choose to interact with the two-dimensional universe or not. This cube god decides to reveal himself to Mr. and Mrs. Flat, as well as their friend, Mr. Level in this two-dimensional universe. The cube god places himself above the plane of the two-dimensional universe directly in front of Mrs. Flat and extends a corner of his cube into the plane of the two-dimensional universe. Mrs. Flat sees this revelation of her god as a point. Next, the cube god places himself above the plane of the two dimensional universe directly in front of Mr. Flat and extends the intersection of two sides of his cube into the plane of the two dimensional universe. Mr. Flat sees this revelation of his god as a line segment. Then, the cube god places himself above the plane of the two dimensional universe directly in front of Mr. Level and extends an entire side into the plane of the two dimensional universe. Mr. Level sees this revelation of his god as a square.

Three view of cube god animation
Three views of cube god:   Mrs. Flat   Mr. Flat   Mr. Level
All three get together and talk about their experiences seeing their god. Mrs. Flat insists her god is a point. Mr. Flat says his god is a line, and Mr. Level states his god is a square. Even though there is only one cube god, they come to the conclusion that there are three gods, because the god each saw appeared differently to each person in their two-dimensional world. Therefore a god that exhibits extra dimensions, when described in a lesser dimensional universe would seem to represent more than one entity. Likewise, our God, who must exist and operate in dimensions beyond our understanding, exists as a Trinity (God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit), although He is one God.

Conclusion Top of page
The Bible says that God exists outside the dimensions of this universe, creating both the spatial and temporal dimensions under which it operates. The God model described above shows that such an entity can see and interact with everything that happens in a lesser dimensional universe, such as ours. Not only can He interact anywhere within such a universe, but He can act at any time - past, present or future - during the history of that universe. God never runs out-of-time or is limited by it. God truly is amazing, and His abilities probably extend far beyond what has been described here.
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2015, 01:43:17 pm »

http://www.ministryhealth.net/mh_articles/172_ministry_in_the_fourth_dimension.html

Excerpt:

A Peek Into The Fourth Dimension
 
Perhaps the clearest demonstration of the relationship between ministry in the third and fourth dimension is in Revelation. Revelation begins with the "Letters to the Seven Churches." These letters are, in one sense, a simple third-dimensional approach to congregational issues.
 
Those who read further into the Epistle and who have "ears to ear what the Spirit says to the churches" discover something that transcends what their five senses perceive. They discover the fourth dimension of ministry.
 
This fourth dimension is where the real spiritual battle of the Kingdom occurs daily and intensely. It is where Satan, unleashed for a time, rages defiantly against Christ and His Kingdom. It is also the dimension, however, which repeatedly depicts an unconquerable Christ in victoriously bringing all things to their final consummation (Revelation 21:22). It is this dimension in which fourth dimension ministry really occurs.
 
Scripture And The Fourth Dimension
 
This fourth dimension is not just in Revelation. It permeates all of Scripture. Every battle, every action, every miracle which God enacted in, with, through and behalf of His people was a fourth-dimension act.
 
One need not embark on a maniacal witch hunt to find the fourth dimension of God countering the Satanic powers in events such as Babel, the Noachian Flood, the Exodus, the Canaanite battles, the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, encounters with Kings (e.g. Ahaz in Isaiah 7:1ff), et al.
 
Perhaps we have succumbed to the same malady as Eliphaz who, in Job 22:14, spoke of "thick clouds" that veil God. He accused God of not seeing us. The reality, however, is that our third-dimension perspective has veiled and blinded us to God and His greater working.
 
Jesus And The Fourth Dimension

 
Jesus' calming of the sea, healing and raising people from the dead, and His own resurrection were not just visible, empirical third-dimensional realities.
 
They were distinctly fourth-dimension encounters. Though observable third-dimension realities, they were more than just miracles. They were primarily and most significantly the power of God triumphing over evil at the highest levels of supra-cosmic reality.
 
When the seventy-two disciples returned from their ministry they rejoiced, "Lord, even demons submit to us in Your name." Jesus reply to their third-dimension observation directed them to the realization of what really happened in the fourth dimension. "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."
 
Jesus concluding words, "Do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven" direct the disciples to focus their joy in the right dimension. Don't rejoice in what you see, Jesus indicated. Instead, rejoice in the greater and more important reality that your ministry is a result of your names being written in heaven (Luke 10:17-20).
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2015, 01:51:46 pm »

You can see all 4 dimensions in Gen 1.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In the beginning TIME

created the heaven and the earth Everything has, Length, Width and Height.

4 dimensions created in the beginning.
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2015, 01:55:32 pm »

You can see all 4 dimensions in Gen 1.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In the beginning TIME

created the heaven and the earth Everything has, Length, Width and Height.

4 dimensions created in the beginning.

Thank you Mark - like I was saying, just something I was studying the last couple of days. I think this clears it up for me.

So basically what it is here is that the TIME of this creation is 6 days?

Like I said - please be patient with me here(not just you, but everyone here), b/c I was a poor science student in school. Undecided
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2015, 02:09:15 pm »

Thank you Mark - like I was saying, just something I was studying the last couple of days. I think this clears it up for me.

So basically what it is here is that the TIME of this creation is 6 days?

Like I said - please be patient with me here(not just you, but everyone here), b/c I was a poor science student in school. Undecided

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2015, 02:17:16 pm »

Excellent! Didn't realize it before, but yet more evidence that crumbles the gap theory into 1000 pieces!
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2015, 03:59:46 pm »

I just watched a Kent Hovind video explaining this...

He said at the creation period, there are 3 things that happened...

Time - Beginning
Space - Heaven
Matter - Earth

He said that while Time and Space are NOT visible, Matter IS visible.

He said Time has a past, present, and future.

He then subsequently compared it to the Trinity(which all 3 are 1)...

Father
Son(of God)
Holy Spirit

He said the only one that is visible of these 3 is Jesus Christ.

Time has a trinity(past, present, and future), and only one that is visible - present.

Space has a trinity - length, width, and height.(and no such thing as 1 or 2 dimensional space)

Matter has 3 flavors - solid, liquid, and gas.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyhow, this is pretty much everything he said(summary).

I have a question - we know that Beginning is TIME. We also know that only the present is visible. So if we look at Genesis 1:1 - isn't it obvious that while we can't see time visibly, it's obvious that at the beginning of creation, it was in the present?

I know I sound a bit muddled here, but just trying to show from this angle that there's no gap theory.
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2015, 06:36:31 pm »

Look, you have 2 different kinds of dimensions. The normal scientific tested observable and retested dimensions.  Like length, width, height and time. You can prove these 4 dimensions through science.

Now you have OTHER dimensions that are talked about that are actually extra dimensional.  Huh

Now what does that mean? The normal 4 dimensions that are provable by math and science exist. Wheb people talk of EXTRA or ULTRA dimensional they are speaking on other realities that exist at the same time as our own reality. You have to think of another existence that exists right along side ours but we cannot see it or perceive it. There could be an entity sitting right next to you, or your house coexists inside his house at the same time. This entity can see you and partially interact with you, but you have no idea it or its home is there. This is the world that is overlaid on ours.

The Bible talks a lot about how the angels, demons and watchers are all around us, yet we cannot perceive them. We cannot see tham as they exist in a different dimension or reality. We know of 4 dimensions that can be proven. Under quantum mechanics/physics there are at least 11 dimensions, When you add in multiple universes or realities than the dimensions just grow. 

But honestly, you are treading in new age beliefs. Be very careful with what you are reading and believing.
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2015, 06:45:38 pm »

Look, you have 2 different kinds of dimensions. The normal scientific tested observable and retested dimensions.  Like length, width, height and time. You can prove these 4 dimensions through science.

Now you have OTHER dimensions that are talked about that are actually extra dimensional.  Huh

Now what does that mean? The normal 4 dimensions that are provable by math and science exist. Wheb people talk of EXTRA or ULTRA dimensional they are speaking on other realities that exist at the same time as our own reality. You have to think of another existence that exists right along side ours but we cannot see it or perceive it. There could be an entity sitting right next to you, or your house coexists inside his house at the same time. This entity can see you and partially interact with you, but you have no idea it or its home is there. This is the world that is overlaid on ours.

The Bible talks a lot about how the angels, demons and watchers are all around us, yet we cannot perceive them. We cannot see tham as they exist in a different dimension or reality. We know of 4 dimensions that can be proven. Under quantum mechanics/physics there are at least 11 dimensions, When you add in multiple universes or realities than the dimensions just grow. 

But honestly, you are treading in new age beliefs. Be very careful with what you are reading and believing.

Is this in response to the post I made above over what Kent Hovind said? Or is this in response to the articles I posted yesterday? Huh

Here was what Hovind was saying(and what we discussed yesterday) - which is where I had my last question...

Go to the 36:30 mark...



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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2015, 07:09:09 pm »

BTW - I understand what the 4 dimensions are(the basics, that is) - but need to clear up what Hovind was explaining(b/c I want to use it in my project).
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2015, 07:09:54 pm »

Is this in response to the post I made above over what Kent Hovind said? Or is this in response to the articles I posted yesterday? Huh


to be honest, im not to sure what the question is? Look, this discussion can get very deep and super in depth. What is it you are looking for?
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2015, 07:13:37 pm »

to be honest, im not to sure what the question is? Look, this discussion can get very deep and super in depth. What is it you are looking for?

OK - let me simplify this(I know I can get complicated at times).

We know that TIME is Past, Present, and Future.

Gen 1:1 says in the BEGINNING God created the Heaven and Earth.

Beginning = Time

Hovind was discussing this briefly today in his Q&A session - we both discussed yesterday that we can disprove the gap theory right here.

Knowing that TIME is Past, Present, and Future, and TIME = Beginning = how can we disprove the gap?

I'll stop right here(forgot the other stuff posted).
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2015, 07:18:54 pm »

BTW - I understand what the 4 dimensions are(the basics, that is) - but need to clear up what Hovind was explaining(b/c I want to use it in my project).

What Kent is saying is that God and all his minions, ie: angels watchers what ever, they do not exist in our space/time universe. They exist in a universe that is out side our time stream. A different dimension meaning a totally different creation. When God created this existence, He and Heaven existed in a different existence. They are outside our own space time existence,  For if God existed in our space time than he would be subject to the laws of time. No way around it. But if he exists in a different spce time than our laws would not be imposed on the Lord.

Its a timey wimey type of thing.




Im sorry but this is a kind of complicated subject that few pwople can understand, or even discuss upon. If you want to follow this you really have to study up on the subject, BUT HEY!! Even the experts just make stuff up.  Cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2015, 07:26:51 pm »

OK - let me simplify this(I know I can get complicated at times).

We know that TIME is Past, Present, and Future.

Gen 1:1 says in the BEGINNING God created the Heaven and Earth.

Beginning = Time

Hovind was discussing this briefly today in his Q&A session - we both discussed yesterday that we can disprove the gap theory right here.

Knowing that TIME is Past, Present, and Future, and TIME = Beginning = how can we disprove the gap?

I'll stop right here(forgot the other stuff posted).

That is why the Bible has so many different genealogies yet they all lead to Jesus. This shows that Time is only 6000 years old. The genealogies are ther to show a limit on time. You cant say the world is millions of years old when we know when Abraham was born. We know when Adam was created and when he died.

Time is a linear program. Meaning it has a begging and an end. Eventually time will stop. We all exist at a certain point in time. God and heaven exist outside of our time, For all we knio there is NO time in Gods Heaven. I dont see how that is possible, but we are talking about GOD the FATHER. He makes the rules, he can break the rules.
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2015, 07:31:18 pm »

First off, I think I'm understanding the dimensions aspect(although I need MUCH more studying with this!).

With that being said - thank you for answering my questions here - I think I understand the concept of time. I see where a "gap" would be IMPOSSIBLE in Gen 1.(b/c where is the linearity?)

Again, thank you!
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2015, 05:26:38 pm »

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« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2015, 05:50:21 pm »

I didn't read this in its entirety yet(about 1/2 of it) - however, this caught my attention...(and will post this article in its entirety in its other thread when I finish reading it next week)

https://bible.org/article/gap-theory-genesis-chapter-one
The Gap Theory of Genesis Chapter One

Excerpt:

History and Purpose

The gap theory is not of recent origin but can be traced back to the early 19th century when the new discipline of geology was breaking upon the scientific scene. Theologians were in no intellectual position to argue, from a scientific basis, the claims of the geologists that the processes responsible for the formation of the surface features of the earth were occurring at almost imperceptibly slow rates as they had always done in the past (the principle of uniformity). Rather than accept the accusation that the Biblical record was no longer valid in the light of “scientific” claims, they chose to accommodate the Scriptural presentation to these new geological theories. A place had to be found for the vast ages of the past, well beyond the accounts of the first man and his environment as recorded in the Bible, and the most accommodating place was between the two aforementioned verses of Genesis.

While the gap theory, or ruin-reconstruction theory as it is sometimes called, is not the only effort at this type of accommodation, it is the most popular theory among those who feel the Biblical record of origins merits their attention. Some have even proposed that the gap should be placed prior to Genesis 1:1, but they insist on a “gap” nevertheless.

It is the author’s opinion that while these efforts at reconciling the Bible with geological claims are very enthusiastic and sincere, they are quite unnecessary. The Text, as given, is quite capable of standing alone in the face of all the criticism that can be engendered by so-called “scientific” claims and theological interpretations. One important fact should be kept in mind when considering the gap theory. This interpretation of Genesis and associated passages of Scripture was not developed in an effort to solve apparent problems with the Text. It was not difficulties with the fall of Satan or the condition of the earth during the six days that precipitated the theory. It was, and is, an effort to solve the problem of time. The time of the earth’s formation, according to natural science, is extremely long and drawn-out, while the Biblical record describes a relatively recent, rapid formation. There were, and still are, those who are quite unwilling to make a decisive choice between these two accounts and thus the gap theory.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was quite obvious in the 1800's, churches just LOST FAITH in the BIBLE.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Galatians 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2017, 07:00:26 pm »

Mark, when I was watching this short commentary by Hunt and McMahon just now, I remembered this long conversation you and I had about this the ENTIRE day TWO years ago! Wow! How time flies!

Anyhow, the late Dave Hunt and Tom McMahon really cleared a lot of things up in their short commentary.

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