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The Law?? what is it? where is it found?

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Author Topic: The Law?? what is it? where is it found?  (Read 830 times)
Mark
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« on: April 05, 2011, 06:56:59 am »

This thread is about the Law. You know Gods law. Or in some cases Moses law. whats the difference? is there a difference?

When you ask some one if they know the law, they say of course. But ask them to tell you where it is you get almost no response at all. Why is this? I think its because people dont really know what the law is. Most people will say its the ever famous 10 commandments. Well i say which ones? and than you get well the ones on the 2 stone tablets. Well i say, which ones?

Most people do not know this, but there are 2 10 commandments, just as there are 2 sets of stone tablets. What is written on those stone tablets? do you know? The stone tablets were written on front AND back, covering the whole surface. Do you ever wonder just how little space the 10 commandments take up in Hebrew? very very little.

So in this thread i want to explore these ideas and get the correct answer to the question.

What is the Law?
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2011, 08:01:16 am »

Here is what i believe to be the Law.

this starts in Exo 19 with God getting the nation of Israel prepared. Here in Exo 19 we find an odd ceremony,

Exo 19:10  And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
Exo 19:11  And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
Exo 19:12  And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
Exo 19:13  There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.
Exo 19:14  And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.
Exo 19:15  And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.
Exo 19:16  And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.


This was the only time God had a ceremony like this at the giving of a covenant. Also if you follow this ceremony it is a precursor of the coming of Jesus. 2 days to get ready shows up on the third. anyway...

With this ceremony it marks this as something special. The Lord is calling all of Israel together to hear the Law they have to follow to get the promise that was given them. Here is that promise.

Exo 19:4  Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exo 19:5  Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6  And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:7  And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8  And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
 

That is the promise for keeping the Law. Now here is where the Law is given. All of Israel has been cleaned and sanctified and are gathered around to hear God speak unto them.

Exo 20:1  And God spake all these words, saying,

The Lord gives what is called the 10 commandments Exo 20:2 through Exo 20:17.  Here at Exo 20:18 right in the middle of the Lords speech, he is interrupted by the Hebrews. because they are scarred. seriously what a bunch of wimps. They cant handle God talking to them so they ask Moses to hear and tell them, and God stops his speech and agrees to do this. and than the Lord continues.

See the Lord didn't stop with the 10 commandments, he was interrupted in what he was saying, and than continued starting back with Exo 20:23

Exo 20:23  Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

So is that the 11th commandment? Is Exo 20:24 the 12th commandment and so on? See the Lord was interrupted in his speech, he didn't make 10 commandments and stop or move on to something else. No far from it, after the interruption he continued. You can read this, all of it has been there this whole time, its just that people don't read what is written, and just take peoples word for what is written. I want you to go read all of this and see just what is written.

So if we go by the 10 commandments than it should really be the 13 commandments. As there are in fact 13 in Exo 20. But wait there is more, as the Lord didn't stop talking. In fact he keeps going all the way to Exo 23:33. That's right the whole speech goes that long. Exo 20:2 all the way to Exo 23:33. That is the whole Law that is given.

Now after this you have another odd ceremony that marks this a very special case for a given covenant.

Exo 24:3  And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
Exo 24:4  And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Exo 24:5  And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.
Exo 24:6  And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
Exo 24:7  And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
Exo 24:8  And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.


Here we have Moses writing down everything that was said. What he wrote down is Exo 20:2 through Exo 23:33 minus the interruption of Exo 20:18-22. This is known as the book of the covenant, or the book of the Law. In confirming this covenant or contract, blood was spilled. The blood was sprinkled on the People, on the Altar (representing God), and on the Book itself. This is the confirmation of the Law. Confirmed with the sacrifice of blood. This is the only time that I have seen this done, and it is the only Covenant like this. 

There are other covenants given, yet none have this kind of ceremony involved with them. This was a special Covenant given to the nation of Israel, and all the people agreed to it. This is the Law.

Exo 20:22 through Exo 23:33 is the Law.


Thoughts? Opinions?
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2011, 04:39:03 pm »

Lets look at the 10 commandments, or what people assume is the 10 commandments.

Exo 20:2  I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4  Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6  And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7  Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exo 20:12  Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exo 20:13  Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14  Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15  Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16  Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17  Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


well there they are, the traditional 10 commandments. But as mentioned above, the speech was interrupted at 20:18 to 20:22. Sp that means that these commandments are part of the 10.

Exo 20:23  Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
Exo 20:24  An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
Exo 20:25  And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
Exo 20:26  Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.


So in fact you have 13 commandments here, as the very next verse goes of about something else entirely, and it would look nice and pretty if it wasnt for the stiff necked people.

Lets look at the other 10 commandments, because these ones are actually called the 10 commandments in scripture.

These are found in Exo 34.

Exo 34:11  Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.
Exo 34:12  Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
Exo 34:13  But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
Exo 34:14  For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Exo 34:15  Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
Exo 34:16  And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.
Exo 34:17  Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
Exo 34:18  The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
Exo 34:19  All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
Exo 34:20  But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
Exo 34:21  Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
Exo 34:22  And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
Exo 34:23  Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.
Exo 34:24  For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.
Exo 34:25  Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
Exo 34:26  The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Exo 34:27  And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
Exo 34:28  And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


Lets look at them in a more common way...

1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).
2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods
3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.
4. All the first-born are mine.
5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.
6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.
8. The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.
9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.

all from Exo 34 and actually called the ten commandments in Exo 34:28.

It is these 10 verses that are written on the 2 stone tables of testimony along with all of the directions for building the Ark and the covering. Everything from Exo 25:1 to Exo 31:17, plus the 10 commandments of Exo 34.

Dont believe me? read it for yourself....

The 2 stone tables of testimony have nothing to do with the Book of the Covenant. 2 entirely different things. The Stones have the 10 commandments carved into them, the Book of the Covenant does not contain the 10 commandments.

Thoughts ? opinions?
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2011, 05:29:05 pm »

My only thought at this point is how does this relate to tent/temple worship of the time of David and Solomon? I've been well aware that there is more than the 10 commandments. I'm not sure how many laws, but I know there are WAY more than 10. No big deal. As you have pointed out, there lots of laws.

My question is, Israel was given directions to build the Ark of the Covenant, and then it was carried around in tents for years, which David said he wanted to build a house for the Lord, that God should not have to dwell in tents. As we know, God wouldn't let David build the house for God because God said David was a "bloody man", so Solomon built the temple on the Temple Mount.

What's the connection if any?

Correct me if I'm wrong but the ark was built during the time in the wilderness after escape from Egypt, right? Then once they were in the Promised Land, for decades actually, finally the temple was built.

My contention is that Israel has not been able to fulfill the law, which they couldn't then and still can't, thus Jesus fulfilled the law for us, as they haven't had the temple since 70ad for temple worship, thus cannot have a Holy of Holies for the ark and the High Priest to offer up once a year for all the sins of Israel.

How does this relate to what your saying about the Law?
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2011, 05:37:56 pm »

My only thought at this point is how does this relate to tent/temple worship of the time of David and Solomon? I've been well aware that there is more than the 10 commandments. I'm not sure how many laws, but I know there are WAY more than 10. No big deal. As you have pointed out, there lots of laws.

My question is, Israel was given directions to build the Ark of the Covenant, and then it was carried around in tents for years, which David said he wanted to build a house for the Lord, that God should not have to dwell in tents. As we know, God wouldn't let David build the house for God because God said David was a "bloody man", so Solomon built the temple on the Temple Mount.

What's the connection if any?

Correct me if I'm wrong but the ark was built during the time in the wilderness after escape from Egypt, right? Then once they were in the Promised Land, for decades actually, finally the temple was built.

My contention is that Israel has not been able to fulfill the law, which they couldn't then and still can't, thus Jesus fulfilled the law for us, as they haven't had the temple since 70ad for temple worship, thus cannot have a Holy of Holies for the ark and the High Priest to offer up once a year for all the sins of Israel.

How does this relate to what your saying about the Law?

None of that is found inside the Law in the Book of the Covenant. What you are referring to is found on the 2 Stone Tables of Testimony. Which is just a regular covenant, and not actually part of the "LAW" per say. As far as i know that could be part of Moses Law, to which i cant seem to find. It's kind of complicated, as you have to keep reading and back tracking to find when the Covenant starts and where it ends. Ive only covered 2 from Exodus so far. I should still have 2 to go, and that excluding the other 3 books of Moses.   
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2011, 06:26:02 pm »

Have you consider this...

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them." Isaiah 8:20 (KJB)

Notice it says both law and testamony.

Also consider 2 Samuel 7. You really need to read it. I think it will become clear what I'm getting at.

True, the temple was actually a request, a heart-felt guilt that David had for dwelling in a house of cedar while God resided behind curtains, of a tent. The temple was not part of the law originally. True. But the building of the temple didn't change how the law was practiced. It made no changes to the law. All the temple was was a new place for God to dwell among Israel, but the Levitical law was still in full force, the same as it was when God brought Israel through the desert to the promised land.

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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2011, 07:39:13 am »

Moses law?

This law called Moses Law is found in Deut 27:15 through Deut 28:68. This is a series of blessings and curses. This was also the Law that was written in the mountains of Israel as soon as Joshua crossed the River, found in Josh 8.


They have actually found the Altar that Joahua built.

Joshua's Altar on Mt. Ebal discovered
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-altar-of-joshua.htm

Now some people call this Moses Law and say its not relevant. As this post from another forum points put.

Quote
Moses law contained the temporary, ceremonial law of the OT.  It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, etc., all of which foreshadowed the cross.  This law was added "till teh seed should come," and that seed was Christ (Gal 3:16,19).  The ritual and ceremony of Moses' law pointed forward to Christ's sacrifice.  When He died this law came to an end, but the Ten Comm. (God's law) "stand fast forever and ever" (Psalm 111:8).  That there are two laws is made crystal clear in Dan 9:10,11.

God's law existed at least as long as sin has existed.  The Bible says, "where there is no law there is no transgresssion (or sin)" (Rom 4:15).

So God's Ten Commandment law existed from the beginning.

Now Moses Law was equated with the Covenant Law found in Exo 20-Exo 23.

Deuteronomy 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

Seems like this was an addition to the Book of the Covenant and was placed on the side of the Ark. While the Tables of Testimony were placed inside of the Ark.

Havent tackled Leviticus yet.

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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2011, 07:16:38 am »

Exo 24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.


Now we come to one of the most famous objects in the entire Bible. The 2 Stone Tables of Testimony. This is one of the things that started me on this whole Law study years ago. Just what are on those 2 tables that God himself wrote, twice. As we can see from the verse above, God is telling Moses to come up the Mountain and get the Tables, but not just the Tables, he’s also getting a Law and commandments.

Now this all starts in Exo 25:1 and continues to Exo 31:18. This is the Testimony of God and Israel. All of this is written on the 2 Stone Tables. That’s right, no 10 commandments alone.

Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

We can see right here before Moses breaks the Tables, that they are completely covered with writing, from and back.

15And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.

So this myth of just 10 commandments that aren’t even the 10 commandments is just that a myth and a lie. I have no idea why this was and still is being done. I honestly cannot figure it out. Scripture says one thing and the people believe another.  Huh

and now Moses has to make 2 new tables, trudge back up the Mountain with them, and God than writes it all out one more time. But this time he adds the 10 commandments to the Tables.

Exo 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
Exo 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
Exo34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.



So we see that what is written on the Stones is the whole Testimony and the 10 Commandments from Exo 34.
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2011, 07:45:02 am »

Quote
So this myth of just 10 commandments that aren’t even the 10 commandments is just that a myth and a lie. I have no idea why this was and still is being done. I honestly cannot figure it out. Scripture says one thing and the people believe another.

The way I see it, it is in part laziness. Some men thought it would be a neat marketing tool, to only promote those 10, with the thought that man will only have to focus on a few things. It's catchy, short, and to the point. And technicaly, that is true, and the 10 commandments of themselves are true and pure. But it ain't all of it by a long shot. These I believe tend to forget, or not mention, if you insist on a person abiding by that 10, the law, one is required to meet ALL of the law...

"And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." Galatians 3:12 (KJB)

"In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it." Deuteronomy 30:16 (KJB)

That was a direct commandment, directed at His people Israel, but what did they do?

"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 (KJB)
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2011, 05:30:19 pm »

@Dok

have you read Deuteronomy 4:13 and 5:1-22 ?

Deuteronomy 5:1-22:

AND Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O
Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears
this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but
with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out
of the midst of the fire,
5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew
you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of
the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,
6 ¶ I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the
land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any
likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in
the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve
them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the
iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in
vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his
name in vain.
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God
hath commanded thee.
13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy
daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor
thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy
stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and
thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of
Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence
through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore
the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath
day.
16 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy
God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be
prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land
which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
17 Thou shalt not kill.
18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
19 Neither shalt thou steal.
20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy
neighbour.
21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour’s wife, neither
shalt thou covet thy neighbour’s house, his field, or his
manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any
thing that is thy neighbour’s.
22 ¶ These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in
the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of
the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no
more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and
delivered them unto me.
-
Deuteronomy 4:13:

13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he
commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and
he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Not sure if it helps, but I came across it a while back. I would think this is the law? unless there is more to it.
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2011, 06:04:36 pm »

Deu 5:1  And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deu 6:1  Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:

see a difference?
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2011, 07:55:08 pm »

Deu 5:1  And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deu 6:1  Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:

see a difference?

Yeah I guess there is a difference. So which one is the Law then? Perhaps the first five books are the law together? You could look at the New Testament and perhaps where Jesus answered this man about what commandments to keep.

Matthew 19:16-21:

16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good
Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal
life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there
is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into
life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no
murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not
steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love
thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I
kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell
that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have
treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

So according to Jesus those are the commandments, at least some of them. He didn't list out every single one, but we know where those came from and that they are in the same area as Exodus Chapter 20, or Deuteronomy Chapter 5, etc.
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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2011, 08:17:30 pm »

To be honest i have no real idea, thats why i have this thread going. In all actuality, it doesn't matter as we are saved by Grace through Faith. I find it just interesting to look this stuff up.

You always here people say we have to keep the law, well what is the law? and they can never tell you. They will say the law is written on the 2 stone tables, well whats written on them? They always say the 10 commandments!!! well come to find out what we call the 10 commandments arent written on the Stone tables.

Than they say things like Jesus did away with Moses law. Well could you point that out? and of course they cant. So after hunting down what some people call Moses law was added to the Book of the Covenant, thus making it official law.

so im still going through it and posting what i find here while arguing it in another forum.

also remember that it was Jesus himself who gave these laws in the first place.
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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2011, 09:07:09 pm »

To be honest i have no real idea, thats why i have this thread going. In all actuality, it doesn't matter as we are saved by Grace through Faith. I find it just interesting to look this stuff up.

You always here people say we have to keep the law, well what is the law? and they can never tell you. They will say the law is written on the 2 stone tables, well whats written on them? They always say the 10 commandments!!! well come to find out what we call the 10 commandments arent written on the Stone tables.

Than they say things like Jesus did away with Moses law. Well could you point that out? and of course they cant. So after hunting down what some people call Moses law was added to the Book of the Covenant, thus making it official law.

so im still going through it and posting what i find here while arguing it in another forum.

also remember that it was Jesus himself who gave these laws in the first place.

Yeah, thank the Lord were not under Law, but under grace. So Moses Law is actually part of the Law then?

I know it also says in I John that sin is transgression of the Law. If that's the case, and we don't know what the Law is, kind of hard to identify the sin. We know love is the fulfilling of the Law. I know things like Homosexuality and Bestiality is a sin, and its talked about in the old testament. Those would be part of the Law and commandments also. Because they are mentioned again in the New testament. Also uncovering like near kins nakedness.

Were not under the law though, but under grace of course. Still it is important to identify sin by the Law so we don't commit it. Perhaps there are more than 10 commandments, but it does mention 10 commandments too. Good thing were under the Spirit and not under the Law.
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2011, 04:32:36 am »

It may help by looking at each time the lawyers and Pharisee made accusations about not keeping the law, such as when they complained the disciples didn't wash their hands, or claim one can't work on the Sabbath, and what Jesus had to say in return. I think it's important to notice that Jesus each time basically showed them the vanity of keeping the law the way the lawyers claimed we should. Also remember in scripture, those lawyers were coming from the perspective of Judaism, as practicing Jews, and not as Christians.

Believers are Jews inwardly and circumcision is of the heart according to Jesus. I'll go with what Jesus says and not man.

"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:40 (KJB)
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« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2011, 04:02:21 pm »

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 (KJB)
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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2012, 06:42:39 am »

6   As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him: 
7   Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 
8   Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 
9   For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 
10   And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 
11 ¶ In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 
12   Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 
13   And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 
14   Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 
15   [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 
16   Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: 
17   Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. 
18   Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 
19   And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 
20   Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 
21   (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 
22   Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 
23   Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Colossians 2:6-23 (KJB)
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2012, 09:50:11 am »

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2014, 07:55:45 pm »

When the Bible says "the Law" generically it means the Torah which is the Old Testament plus a few books the Catholic church kicked out of our Bible at the council of Nicea.
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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2014, 06:06:57 am »

When the Bible says "the Law" generically it means the Torah which is the Old Testament plus a few books the Catholic church kicked out of our Bible at the council of Nicea.

What books were kicked out?
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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2014, 11:03:06 am »

What books were kicked out?

I couldn`t say for sure without looking it up. Been too long.

The book of Jubilees is one I know for sure and it is considered scripture by the Jews as well as by some Christians. Studying it is on my to do list.

Enoch is another and I have studied the book of Enoch some, its really interesting.

My feeling about books of that nature is that they are worth looking at and considering but it`s not that important to determine if they should be considered scripture or not.

I think Enoch is scripture and based on what I`ve read about Jubilees its probably scripture. But there is nothing relevant to salvation in those books. The value from those books is in the information they have that is helpful in trying to piece together information that isn`t found in our Bible.

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« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2014, 11:09:44 am »

Can you show me where those books were ever in the Bible? The KJ Bible we have today is the exact same Bible used at Antioch.
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« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2014, 11:24:01 am »

Can you show me where those books were ever in the Bible? The KJ Bible we have today is the exact same Bible used at Antioch.

Sorry I thought you were asking me a legit question  Roll Eyes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jubilees

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

Both of the above references note that these books were considered scripture by the early church fathers.

They were also held in high regard by Jews prior to the creation of Judaism and the Talmud after the expulsion of the Jews from Israel in 70AD.

To respond to the technicality you bring up. The Bible was codified by the Catholic Church in 325AD at the council of Nicea. This is the event I was refering to in my post and it was at that time certain text were rejected including Jubilees and Enoch.
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« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2014, 11:30:59 am »

Sorry I thought you were asking me a legit question  Roll Eyes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jubilees

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

Both of the above references note that these books were considered scripture by the early church fathers.

They were also held in high regard by Jews prior to the creation of Judaism and the Talmud after the expulsion of the Jews from Israel in 70AD.

It is a legit question. And Wiki isnt really a reliable source of information. Nowhere were those 2 books ever included in the Bible. Not one time in history. If you want to talk about books that were held in "high regard", i can mention a bunch, like the Gospel of Adam and Eve that was popular during the time Jesus actually walked the Earth. Problem is it wasnt part of Scripture. The book of Enoch was never part of Scripture at all. The book called the book of Jubilees has so many issues it would give 2nd Maccabees a run...  Cheesy

There are reasons these books are not part of the Bible, and its not that they were taken out, they were never a part of it to begin with.
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« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2014, 11:44:15 am »

It is a legit question. And Wiki isnt really a reliable source of information. Nowhere were those 2 books ever included in the Bible. Not one time in history. If you want to talk about books that were held in "high regard", i can mention a bunch, like the Gospel of Adam and Eve that was popular during the time Jesus actually walked the Earth. Problem is it wasnt part of Scripture. The book of Enoch was never part of Scripture at all. The book called the book of Jubilees has so many issues it would give 2nd Maccabees a run...  Cheesy

There are reasons these books are not part of the Bible, and its not that they were taken out, they were never a part of it to begin with.

I disagree that it is legit question. My feeling is that you are taking advantage of a remark I should have worded different. They were never in the Bible because they were kicked out when the Catholics decided what the Bible was going to be. Prior to Nicea the 2 books were highly regarded by many believers.

and your wrong about Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a respected source of information. I used it because it`s quick and easy. I`m not interested in wasting my time debating these books or researching information to defend them with.

I like Enoch and I am interested in Jubilees. You obviously don`t like them and I respect that. Your choice.
But be big enough to let people enjoy them.

I was just attempting to put up a helpful comment since no one here knows what the Law is. I didn`t intend to get into a sidebar debate about the missing books.
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« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2014, 12:04:06 pm »

I disagree that it is legit question. My feeling is that you are taking advantage of a remark I should have worded different. They were never in the Bible because they were kicked out when the Catholics decided what the Bible was going to be. Prior to Nicea the 2 books were highly regarded by many believers.

Again, they were never part of the Bible. The Waldensian's received their Bible around 120AD from Antioch. It contained every book found in the Bible today. Nothing more nothing less. The Bible was established long before Nicea. 

and your wrong about Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a respected source of information. I used it because it`s quick and easy. I`m not interested in wasting my time debating these books or researching information to defend them with.

And you are getting questionable information. Just saying, WIKI does not verify the info people put on it. And anyone can sign up to adjust the pages. I know people who do it. I use it as a reference to find knowledge, not as a source. It is also there to deliberately deceive people with false info.

I like Enoch and I am interested in Jubilees. You obviously don`t like them and I respect that. Your choice.
But be big enough to let people enjoy them.

I never said i didnt like them, they are interesting books. BUT they were never part of the Bible.

I was just attempting to put up a helpful comment since no one here knows what the Law is. I didn`t intend to get into a sidebar debate about the missing books.

I know exactly what and where the Law is and where it is exactly found. Apparently you didn't read this whole thread.The LAW isnt the Torah. Its not the entire first 5 books. 

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« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2014, 12:52:22 pm »



As I understand it from studying the history of the early church, there were lost of competing documents, lots of dissension, final decisions were made by people associated with the Roman Emperor who was making Christianity the official religeon of the Roman Empire. Based on what I have read I`d have to contend that the Bible was not established until the 4th century and that the Oldest Bible in the world is a 4th century Bible.

On the Wikipedia assertion. In general the world would disagree with your opinion. But once again, I used it just for the convenience. I`m not interested in pursuing this topic with you.If I did I`d only be doing it to prove to you that I could.

As to your comment on the Law. I did read the thread and am aware of what you claim the Law to be.
My initial comment was in reference to what Paul meant when he used the term in his letters to churches.
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« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2014, 01:00:45 pm »

As I understand it from studying the history of the early church, there were lost of competing documents, lots of dissension, final decisions were made by people associated with the Roman Emperor who was making Christianity the official religeon of the Roman Empire. Based on what I have read I`d have to contend that the Bible was not established until the 4th century and that the Oldest Bible in the world is a 4th century Bible.

On the Wikipedia assertion. In general the world would disagree with your opinion. But once again, I used it just for the convenience. I`m not interested in pursuing this topic with you.If I did I`d only be doing it to prove to you that I could.

As to your comment on the Law. I did read the thread and am aware of what you claim the Law to be.
My initial comment was in reference to what Paul meant when he used the term in his letters to churches.

Thats Catholic history, are you catholic? Like i said earlier, the Bible was already established as we have it today by 120 ad. At Antioch they made copies of the scriptures and went on missionaries with them. One went to the Waldensian's in northern Italy. They were given the copies of the Bible, same as we have it today. They made copies and gave those away. The Bible was established as is well before Nicea. This is why the Popes tried to murder all of the Waldensians over the years. They were making copies of the Bible and giving them away spreading the truth abroad. Nicea did not establish the Bible it was already well in use before that and in circulation.

Quote
In general the world would disagree with your opinion.

Then they are doing their job quite well wouldn't you agree?  Cheesy
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« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2014, 01:05:44 pm »

Thats Catholic history, are you catholic? Like i said earlier, the Bible was already established as we have it today by 120 ad. At Antioch they made copies of the scriptures and went on missionaries with them. One went to the Waldensian's in northern Italy. They were given the copies of the Bible, same as we have it today. They made copies and gave those away. The Bible was established as is well before Nicea. This is why the Popes tried to murder all of the Waldensians over the years. They were making copies of the Bible and giving them away spreading the truth abroad. Nicea did not establish the Bible it was already well in use before that and in circulation.

Then they are doing their job quite well wouldn't you agree?  Cheesy

This is the fish that I`d toss back into the lake. Go over to my last gap theory post and smack that one around  Wink
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« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2014, 01:21:03 pm »

This is the fish that I`d toss back into the lake. Go over to my last gap theory post and smack that one around  Wink

Thats cool man. No worries, but you might want to look into how we have the Bible today and the people who God used to bring it to us.

Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
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