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Kent Hovind- Creation Seminars

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August 08, 2018, 02:38:10 am suzytr says: Hello, any good churches in the Sacto, CA area, also looking in Reno NV, thanks in advance and God Bless you Smiley
January 29, 2018, 01:21:57 am Christian40 says: It will be interesting to see what happens this year Israel being 70 years as a modern nation may 14 2018
October 17, 2017, 01:25:20 am Christian40 says: It is good to type Mark is here again!  Smiley
October 16, 2017, 03:28:18 am Christian40 says: anyone else thinking that time is accelerating now? it seems im doing days in shorter time now is time being affected in some way?
September 24, 2017, 10:45:16 pm Psalm 51:17 says: The specific rule pertaining to the national anthem is found on pages A62-63 of the league rulebook. It states: “The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem. “During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”
September 20, 2017, 04:32:32 am Christian40 says: "The most popular Hepatitis B vaccine is nothing short of a witch’s brew including aluminum, formaldehyde, yeast, amino acids, and soy. Aluminum is a known neurotoxin that destroys cellular metabolism and function. Hundreds of studies link to the ravaging effects of aluminum. The other proteins and formaldehyde serve to activate the immune system and open up the blood-brain barrier. This is NOT a good thing."
http://www.naturalnews.com/2017-08-11-new-fda-approved-hepatitis-b-vaccine-found-to-increase-heart-attack-risk-by-700.html
September 19, 2017, 03:59:21 am Christian40 says: bbc international did a video about there street preaching they are good witnesses
September 14, 2017, 08:06:04 am Psalm 51:17 says: bro Mark Hunter on YT has some good, edifying stuff too.
September 14, 2017, 04:31:26 am Christian40 says: i have thought that i'm reaping from past sins then my life has been impacted in ways from having non believers in my ancestry.
September 11, 2017, 06:59:33 am Psalm 51:17 says: The law of reaping and sowing. It's amazing how God's mercy and longsuffering has hovered over America so long. (ie, the infrastructure is very bad here b/c for many years, they were grossly underspent on. 1st Tim 6:10, the god of materialism has its roots firmly in the West) And remember once upon a time ago when shacking up b/w straight couples drew shock awe?

Exodus 20:5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
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Author Topic: Kent Hovind- Creation Seminars  (Read 1205 times)
AlexMay
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« on: November 22, 2010, 04:02:24 am »



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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2010, 02:13:24 pm »

please pray for this sweet man they locked him up for ten years for teaching creationism.

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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2010, 05:12:29 pm »

1Co 9:24  Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25  And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26  I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27  But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Act 5:29  Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.


You know, before I got saved(when I was merely a window shopping-christian), I've always wondered why people like Billy Graham, Pope John Paul II, and Rick Warren got loads of airtime, was loved by the world, and this despite them being born again christian leaders, supposedly, when Christians in general pretty much know that Christians are hated and persecuted by the world. I thought they were great guys at the time because of popular opinion, including that within my church walls...

But yes, you really have to be a good Borean to realize that the true born agains know that their real rewards and eternal life are in heaven in the New Jeruselum, so nothing in this world should disturb them no matter how badly they're treated. May the Lord bless these souls who have risked their lives spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, as well as exposed who's really behind Mystery Babylon.
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2012, 04:10:17 am »

Jailed creationist appeals after 5 years
'Dr. Dino' insists: 'I have always paid every tax I owe'

http://www.wnd.com/2012/01/creation-evangelist-appeals-conviction-after-5-years/

After five years in a federal penitentiary, the mission of the popular Florida-based creation-science lecturer and theme-park creator known as Dr. Dino remains the same: Win people to faith in Jesus Christ and get out of prison.

In an email from a minimum security satellite of the Supermax prison in Florence, Colo., Kent Hovind told WND he has seen numerous inmates come to Christian faith as he continues to appeal his 2006 conviction, which resulted in a 10-year sentence.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=98757

His son, Eric Hovind, who now directs the ministry founded in Pensacola in 1989 as Creation Science Evangelism, contends the government completely misrepresented his parents in the trial, portraying them as anti-government radicals. His mother, Jo, served one year in prison. With time off for good behavior, his father has another three years to serve if his appeals are unsuccessful, according to his attorney.

While Kent Hovind has made statements over the course of his ministry that challenge the authority of the federal government to collect income taxes, he insists he has not broken any laws.

“I’ve never been anti-tax or a tax protester,” he told WND. “I have always said that everyone should obey the law, including the government. I have always paid every tax I owe.”

Claiming the government itself violated more than 20 laws, policies and procedures, Hovind said he plans to “file a wide range of legal documents to get the indictment overturned.”

“Once we get one just judge to admit the government attorneys did not follow the rules in any one of those violations the case will be overturned as if it never happened,” he said.

He makes his case in a document on a website devoted to his legal battle.
http://www.2peter3.com/Court_Docs/365.pdf

“When God is done doing what He is doing I will be free and He will get great glory,” Hovind said. “I wish I understood it all now, but the last chapter has not been written yet. I’ll just trust the Lord to do right.”

Kent Hovind established Creation Science Evangelism with the aim of evangelizing through presenting evidence for divine creation. In 2001, he opened a theme park behind his home called Dinosaur Adventure Land, which depicted humans and dinosaurs co-existing. After he went to prison Jan. 19, 2007, his son took over the ministry. This year the name was changed to Creation Today, with a mission focus on “creation, apologetics and evangelism.”

“The fact that the ministry continues and is thriving today is just a testament to God’s goodness,” Eric Hovind told WND. “God has allowed us not only to recover but to expand and grow.”

Dinosaur Adventure Land, however, was shut down three years ago. It was among the nine properties seized by the government for restitution of more than $500,000 in unpaid taxes and liabilities.

‘Structuring’

Among the charges against Hovind was a failure to collect and pay $470,000 in withholding taxes, obstruction of tax laws and the illegal structuring of transactions totaling $430,500 to avoid financial reporting laws.

Entrance to Dinosaur Adventure Land in Pensacola

The “structuring” charges are based on application of laws designed to expose money-laundering by drug traffickers. The law requires banks to fill out a transaction report if any customer deposits or withdraws more than $10,000 in one day.

Hovind contends the structuring law does not apply, because he and his wife, the bookkeeper, never deposited or withdrew more than $10,000 on any one day. The argument formed the basis of his appeal two years ago to the U.S. Supreme Court after rejections by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta. But the high court didn’t take his case.

Hovind’s new attorney, Paul J. Hansen of Omaha, Neb., contends the defense attorney at trial failed to tell the jury that Hovind was not required to file a quarterly IRS Form 941, because he does not fit the statutory requirements.

In the 2006 trial, Assistant U.S. Attorney Michelle Heldmyer charged that Hovind was hiding money by not filing quarterly reports and withdrawing large sums from the bank to pay employees.

Hansen argues Hovind was “withdrawing money so he wouldn’t create a red flag.”

“We can prove he wasn’t required to file,” Hansen said.

Until 2002, the ministry withdrew cash from the bank to compensate employees. Hovind said he understood that as a registered 508 non-profit organization, he was not required to withhold taxes, leaving IRS obligations with each worker.

Over the years, the amount of withdrawal every week or so grew from $2,000 to about $9,500. The practice stopped in 2002 because the Hovinds thought it was too risky to transport so much cash.

“The only time it’s illegal is when you’re covering up an illegal act,” Hansen said. “There is no intent there. His attorney should have been able to bring that up.”

Hovind contends he abandoned any practice he discovered was legally questionable. But in the early morning hours of July 13, 2006, about 20 armed government agents arrived on ministry property without notice to arrest him and his wife.

New motions

At the moment, Kent Hovind told WND, there are four motions before a federal judge in Pensacola, filed in June, that he believes should set him free.

One of the motions, filed by Hansen, argues Hovind was not given due process, contending that the case record does not contain a warrant “supported by Oath or affirmation,” as required by the U.S. Constitution’s Fourth Amendment.

Hansen said he has notified the clerk of the court of his request for a certified copy of the warrant.

“If there is no oath or affirmation in the record, the jury could not even convene,” he explained. “They can’t arrest somebody unless somebody has put their name on the line.”

Hansen contends that the IRS regularly does not put an oath or affirmation on warrants, because it doesn’t want a specific accuser to be subpoenaed.

“They don’t want you to subpoena your accuser, because you could tear them apart on the witness stand,” he said. “They want you to try to find all your witnesses.”

Hovind also was convicted of filing a frivolous lawsuit against the IRS, filing an injunction against an IRS agent and threatening investigators and others who cooperated with the investigation.

Hovind’s supporters acknowledge that on a radio broadcast, he did pray that God would “smite” the IRS, which was interpreted as a threat.

While Hovind contends he’s not an anti-tax protester, he has made statements that have given that impression to the IRS.

In 1996, he tried to file for bankruptcy to avoid paying federal income taxes. He told a judge at a hearing that he did not believe the U.S., the IRS and the U.S. Attorney’s Office “have jurisdiction in this matter.”

“I sincerely believe that I am not a person required to file a Federal Income Tax Return,” he said. “This belief is a result of extensive research that I have done.”

Asked by the judge where he lived, Hovind replied, “I live in the church of Jesus Christ, which is located all over the world. I have no residence.”

Hovind has stated he believes the Bible “teaches us to obey the authority over us.” But he has contended the “IRS is not the authority over me any more than the government of Japan is.”

Eric Hovind has explained to WND that his father sent numerous letters to the IRS, asking exactly which laws apply to a 508 (c) (1) (a) church ministry, but he received no response.

Kent Hovind’s position on taxes was reported to the IRS in the mid-1990s by an official at neighboring Pensacola Christian College, which barred students from any connection to the ministry. The college’s senior vice president, Rebekah Horton, testified in the Hovinds’ 2006 trial, “We know the Scriptures do not promote (tax evasion). It’s against Scripture teaching.”

Horton said it was the college’s duty to report Hovind, because she “didn’t want to see innocent people get led astray.”

Eric Hovind said he can see how “the majority of people would look at my dad and say, ‘Hey you’re refusing to pay a tax that you owe.’ The question is do you owe that tax?”

As an ordained minister, he said, his father “paid no taxes, because he didn’t make any money,” noting the ministry was set up to provide only for his basic needs, and he had no income.

Meanwhile, Kent Hovind told WND that while “being separated from the family and ministry has been hard,” he has been blessed “to see the many new converts in here grow in the Lord.”

About a dozen recently have become Christians, he said.

“I pray that what happened in my case will alert people to many things and cause them to take action,” he said. “If all this encourages people to get saved and live for God, and if God gets glory through it all, I will rest content.”

Previous stories:

‘Government persecuting’ jailed creation evangelist
http://www.wnd.com/2009/05/98757/

Creationism theme park in tax dispute
http://www.wnd.com/2009/08/106244/
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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 10:07:00 am »

(100 Reasons) "Why Evolution Is Stupid" (Full Length)

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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2012, 08:32:40 am »

Here is the AGE of the Earth seminar in MP3 format
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=8300501956

Garden of Eden
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/8300501956/8300501956.mp3

The Age of the Earth
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/8300501627/8300501627.mp3

The Big Bang is a Big Dud
http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/830050103/830050103.mp3

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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2012, 08:22:08 am »


Are you being Brainwashed: Propaganda in Science Textbooks

http://www.arrivalofthefittest.com/downloads/CSE/documents/Creation%20Science%20Evangelism%20-%20Are%20You%20Being%20Brainwashed.pdf
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2012, 08:15:49 pm »

everything you could possibly imagine by Dr. Kent Hovind, all vids, mp3's, PDF's you name it.

Kent Hovind is one of the most requested speakers on the Creation and Evolution topic in churches and Universities all over the world. Dr. Hovind served as an educator for many years teaching Biology, Anatomy, Physical Science, Mathematics, Earth Science, and many other sciences. Dr. Hovind has debated the Creation and Evolution controversy over 100 times all over the world, in many large Universities, and on thousands of radio talk shows.

http://3bible.com/kenthovind.php
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2012, 08:27:30 pm »

Whenever I go out of town by car, every now and then someone else in the car would turn on one of those "Christian" radio stations - they'll blabber on and on over how b/c liberals did something un-Christian that we need to fight back and take it to Congress(and they'll throw in non-KJV verses along with a bit of Christian Rock), but en yet they never say one word defending people like Kent Hovind and Greg Dixon. No, I don't put these 2 men on a pedestial, but you get the point.
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2015, 09:09:35 pm »

2Thes 1:3  We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4  So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


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« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2015, 09:38:38 pm »

Hovind Express - 150 empirical reasons to reject Darwinism
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcRrhA0JL0i4PmTu5MzjNjCO34D_AIiEE&app=desktop

by Jason Kelty 7 videos 186 views Last updated on Dec 21, 2014
The first time I watched Kent Hovind's seminar in January of 2001, I was an outspoken Atheist. I ignored all the Bible stuff and only paid attention to the empirical science. These videos edit down Hovind's most recent seminar videos to just that kind of data only. These are the kind of points (150 points in these videos) that destroyed my belief in Atheism and started my search for who the Creator was. Almost 3 years later, I accepted Jesus Christ as my Saviour and I'll never look back.

If you are anything like I was, give these videos some attention and you should come to the same logical conclusions I did:

1. Some kind of "God" must have created everything.
2. It happened only thousands of years ago.
3. This planet was completely flooded at some point.

While these videos generally only focus on those 3 points, I assure you that further evidence beyond Hovind's seminar proved to me Biblical Christianity is 100% Truth (see my "Truth" playlist).

Find your Creator. He's calling you. Listen.
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2015, 04:16:58 pm »

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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2015, 10:00:27 am »

bro Mark, have you seen this yet? A brother on one of the YT communities posted this today(but will have to see this later).

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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2015, 02:41:30 pm »

I watched 1/3 of this Hovind presentation - quite good. Although I will admit, the fossil record stuff still flies over my head.
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2015, 05:52:24 pm »

Besides Hovind, are there any other Creation Science ministries that only use the KJB?

There are other CS ministries that don't use it primarily(like CMI, whose videos I've posted here recently), and I still find them very good and edifying - however, they do lose some of their effectiveness when they use these other modern-day versions(ie-when you watch Hovind's compared to them, for example, you can see Hovind get into more deeper things).
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2015, 07:39:31 pm »

Apparently, Hovind is doing some kind of seminar on YT now.

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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2015, 08:09:55 pm »

Open letter to Kent Hovind.

Brother i love you so much, your seminars are so awesome and so needed in such a fallen world. BUT! You have been lied to and deceived by a false Catholic lie. Please brother, i pray to the Lord to open your eyes once again.


 The Pretribulation Rapture Has Been Taught Throughout Christian History

by Pastor Joey Faust | Kingdom Baptist Church
THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE IN HISTORY - NOT OF DEMONIC ORIGIN

Many people sometimes wonder who has taught the pre-trib rapture before J.N. Darby (1800-1881). This question is often stated as an objection. These objections are often very bitter and harsh. Modern pre-tribbers have responded by citing Morgan Edwards (1722-1795), a Baptist pastor who presented a pre-trib rapture in the 18th century. Edwards writes:

"...the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John xiv. 2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for 'now the time is come that judgment must begin,' and that will be 'at the house of God' (I Pet. iv. 17)..."
(Quoted in "Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist," by Thomas Ice)

Two objections are generally made to this quote. First, it is claimed that Morgan Edwards (as a historicist) was only presenting a hypothetical case for a "term paper." Second, many argue that this obscure writing had no effect or influence on Christians in the mainstream, and that it cannot be seen as setting the stage for Darby's later rapture view. They assert that Darby got his view from someone claiming to give an inspired "revelation" in the early 19th century. After Morgan Edwards, post-tribbers have simply put forth a greater demand. They now call upon pre-tribbers to not only present a pre-trib rapture before Darby, but to also present a "significant" case(s) that would have "influenced" Darby (and modern dispensational eschatology). They now demand that pre-tribbers establish a clear historical progression. Otherwise, they still maintain that Darby was influenced by an Irvingite "utterance."
Wisdom often calls us to stand upon the shoulders of our forefathers. Therefore, it is not unreasonable for post-tribbers to request from us an historical chain of thought in regard to the rapture. It is, however, unreasonable for them to conclude that, simply because certain details may be cloudy, that this must mean the pre-trib view arose from a demonic or Irvingite "revelation." The same claim was made in regard to futurism ("It is from the Jesuits"), and earlier, premillennialism itself ("It is from the Jews"), etc.
 

Margaret McDonald and the Irvingites

Tregelles (in 1864) made the claim that the pre-trib teaching arose from an utterance in Irving's church:

"But when the theory of a secret coming of Christ was first brought forward (about the year 1832), it was adopted with eagerness...I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an 'utterance' in Mr. Irving's church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose." (Tregelles, "The Hope of Christ's Second Coming," 1864)

Tregelles does not document this "utterance." G.H. Lang therefore writes:

"No evidence is available that any of the Powerscourt circle took the idea of a secret rapture from the Irvingite utterances, no evidence beyond Tregelles's assertion, and for this he gives no proofs." ("The Disciple," 1954)

In "The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin," (1973), Dave MacPherson does his best to make his own far-fetched idea "believable." He attempts to link the origin of the pre-trib rapture view with a young lady named Margaret McDonald. However, he fails considerably in offering any evidence that this young lady influenced anyone on ANY Biblical subject (other than perhaps, whether or not Apostolic gifts were reviving). To start with, she was in Scotland (not England, where Irving's church was located). As to M. McDonald's particular "revelation," she appears to teach that the "Spirit-filled" will be "kept" from deception in the MIDST of the Trib (i.e. the post-trib view)! She has the faithful (including herself) on earth when the Antichrist is revealed:

"I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation. Now will the wicked one be revealed with all power...It will be a fiery trial...Nothing but what is of God will stand...I said, Now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth; and nothing but Christ in US can DETECT this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive...This is the trial THROUGH which those are to pass, who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of Man...The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God within you, that you may DETECT satan..." (emphasis mine)

It is obvious that by being "kept," McDonald means Christians are kept from DECEPTION while the Antichrist is manifested!

McPherson erred by stumbling onto a book written by Robert Norton in 1861 which claimed that Margaret McDonald originated the pre-trib rapture view. The book was titled, "The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets in the Catholic Apostolic Church" (i.e. Irving's movement). In 1852, Norton wrote "Reasons for Believing the Lord has Restored to the Church Apostles and Prophets." By 1861, the pre-trib rapture view was a well-established doctrine among premillennialists. Isn't it reasonable to conclude that Norton (a member of the Catholic Apostolic Church) would greatly desire to argue that something "significant" originated from someone exercising a restored "Apostolic" gift? Notice his words in describing Margaret McDonald's supposed "revelation" of the pre-trib rapture (i.e. two-stage coming):

"Marvelous light was shed upon Scripture, and especially upon the doctrine of the Second Advent BY THE REVIVED SPIRIT OF PROPHECY. In the following account by Miss M.M...we see first the distinction between the final stage of the Lord's coming...and His prior appearing..." (emphasis mine; MacPherson, p.47)

Sadly, Norton (1807-1883) was simply a victim of his own wishful thinking. He read into M.M.'s "revelation" in order to argue that "marvelous light" (i.e. the pre-trib rapture teaching which was WIDESPREAD among prophecy students at the time) had come forth from his own restoration movement. Why would he need this type of prop? Because the majority of Christians at the time thought his movement was inspired by the Devil and that Norton himself was "fanatical"! How advantageous it would be to argue that the prized teaching in regard to the two stages of the Lord's Coming was first manifested by someone with a supernatural gift. Yet, he failed in offering anything other than his own assertions to validate his claims. MacPherson repeated the mistake (for different reasons).

But let us pretend that M. McDonald is indeed teaching some type of pre-trib rapture. What would this prove? It would simply show that McDonald was INFLUENCED (in the realm of eschatology) by the scholarly, prophetic teachings around her at the time and was simply coughing them back up as a self-deceived or pretended "inspired" utterance. If not, and something more diabolical was at work, Matthew 8:29 and Acts 16:17 reveal that devils often attempt to oppose truth (especially new or revived truth) by AGREEING with it, thereby attempting to bring confusion in regard to its source.

But we should read the quote by Tregelles a bit closer. Why did he use the phrase "secret rapture" instead of "pre-trib rapture"? It is perhaps because he knew that the pre-trib rapture was certainly taught before anyone in Irving's church ever uttered a word! Whether or not it is "secret" is of no consequence and depends upon what one means by "secret." The debate is over whether or not there is a PRE-trib escape. The Bible itself is the foundation for the pre-trib teaching (see Lk.21:36, Rev.3:10, Heb.11:5, etc., as well as other Scriptures that have historically been used to teach the view such as Mt.25:10, Rev.12:5, 14:3, etc.). This teaching is found wherever there is a revival of premillennial thought (literal interpretation). In the 17th century, premillennialism was revived in the mainstream. Therefore, we should be able to find the foundational elements of the pre-trib rapture scheme OPENLY presented in the 17th century.
 

Joseph Mede and the Rapture

Joseph Mede (1586-1638) was the most popular premillennialist of his age. Edward Bickersteth (1786-1850) called him the "father of modern interpretation." Therefore, his writings were certainly still influential in the 19th century. David Brown called Mede the "prince of Millennarians." Wilbur Smith stated:

"Probably no work on the Apocalypse by an English author from the time of the Reformation down to the beginning of the 19th century, and even later, has exercised as much influence..."

Mede's work on the Book of Revelation became the most popular book (outside the Bible itself) of that day. The main prophetic view of Mede's age (among premillennialists) was the historicist view of the Tribulation period (i.e. the judgments of the Book of Revelation are fulfilled figuratively throughout the whole of Christian history). The literal, futurist view (that which I embrace) did not become widespread until the 19th century when many historicists adopted a "double" view of the 1260 days (e.g. T. Evill, Purdon, E. Bickersteth, etc.) interpreting them literally (i.e. as future days), and at the same time, prophetically (i.e. as years). Burgh, Govett, Darby, and many others would lead the way in abandoning the historicist view altogether. Within his historicist view, Mede suggested the possibility of a RAPTURE before the final "conflagration" (i.e. burning of the earth) in the final days immediately before the 1000-year Kingdom. This would correspond somewhat to the final age of the futurist (i.e. modern dispensational) system. Mede suggested that this particular burning would only be a purification and not a total annihilation of the earth - which he placed after the Millennium ("Works," Book III, p.617). In regard to the rapture, Mede writes:

"I will add this more, namely, what may be conceived to be the cause of this RAPTURE of the saints on high to meet the Lord in the clouds, rather than to wait his coming to earth....What if it be, that they may be PRESERVED during the Conflagration of the earth and the works thereof, 2 Pet.3:10, that as Noah and his family were preserved from the Deluge by being lift up above the waters in the Ark; so should the saints at the Conflagration be lift up in the clouds unto their Ark, Christ, to be preserved there from the deluge of fire, wherein the wicked shall be consumed?" ("The Works of Joseph Mede," 1672, London edition, Book IV, p.776)

Notice the word "rapture," the use of 1 Thess.4, the analogy of Noah, and the "preservation" in contrast to the wicked, etc. All of these items are the very nuts and bolts of the modern pre-trib system. There was a train of thought (from Mede to Darby) that surely influenced Darby in regard to the rapture. This suggestion of Mede's had considerable influence on other students of the prophecies. He is later actually quoted by William Cuninghame (which we will discuss shortly) as one of the earliest advocates of the pre-trib rapture view! Therefore, whether or not one agrees that Mede's quote is foundational in regard to the pre-trib rapture is beside the point. Cuninghame took it as being an early and undeveloped example of his own viewpoint and built upon it. From the point of view of the historian, Mede takes his place in history as being one of the first scholars to revive the pre-trib rapture concept.
 

Frere, Cuninghame and the Rapture

The next influential prophecy writers to continue laying the foundation for the two-stage coming of Christ (i.e. pre-trib rapture) were James H. Frere (1779-1866) and William Cuninghame (1775-1849):

"Faber, Cuninghame, and Frere were unquestionably the three most prominent expositors in Britain in the early part of the nineteenth century." (Fromm, Vol.III, p.279)

Both Frere and Cuninghame later participated in the Albury Park conferences (1826-28). Some historians have noted that Irving was a DISCIPLE of Frere in regard to the prophecies. When Mede's idea of a "rapture" of believers (to escape the end-time destruction on the wicked) was added to a two-stage second coming of Christ, historicism began to look a lot like futurism at its final "head." The foundation for this two-stage coming was indeed laid by Frere and Cuninghame over a decade BEFORE the Albury meetings took place. This teaching would be "refined" at the Albury meetings. It is therefore no wonder that after the Albury conferences had ended (1828), articles began appearing in Irving's "Morning Watch" (June-Sept., 1832) advocating a view that held to both the year-day and literal-day interpretations at the same time. A new breed of "historicist-futurist" scholars would arise that combined Mede's "rapture" with Frere's and Cuninghame's two-stage, end-time scenarios. From that point, this "new breed" (plus many pure historicists and pure futurists) would all begin to issue commentaries and articles advocating a two-stage coming and a pre-trib escape. The popularity of Frere and Cuninghame in the early part of the 19th century has already been demonstrated. And it is obvious that these men (and their peers) had an influence on Edward Irving before (and at) Albury Park. Yet, let us document how these men laid an early foundation for the two-stage coming of Christ: In 1815, Frere writes:

"...the sitting of the Ancient of Days is mentioned in the 9th verse of the seventh chapter of Daniel, and precedes the death and destruction of the ten-horned Beast...The sitting of the Ancient of Days and the judgment of the saints mentioned in Daniel, must therefore CONSIDERABLY PRECEDE the sitting of the saints in judgment at the commencement of the Millennium...and must be cotemporary with a period in the Revelation of Saint John, prior to that of the battle of Armageddon...("A Combined View of the Prophecies," London: 1815)

Frere looked for the Jews to be restored to the land, followed by a time of trouble to come "such as there never was...", which would cover a period of 45 years. He saw two blessed periods for the saints; one before this trouble, and one after it (i.e. the Millennium). There is no mention of a translation; yet, the foundation for two stages is clearly being set. Many of the futurists would see a Tribulation period about that length (Seiss, Govett, Larkin, etc.) William Cuninghame actually put out his first edition of "A Dissertation on the Seals and Trumpets of the Apocalypse" in 1813. The following quotes are from his 1817 edition:

"In the interpretation of this passage, I am compelled to differ from most expositors of the Apocalypse. Bishop Newton and Mr. Faber both apply the vision of the Lamb with the one-hundred and forty-four thousand, to the state of the true Church during the reign of the Beast...They therefore consider this mystical number of one-hundred and forty-four thousand, as continuing to represent the true Church from the times of Constantine to the dawn of the Millennium...the state of these followers of the Lamb, does not at all agree with the condition of the Church during the reign of the Beast...According to the system of most writers whose works I have had access to, it does not appear what becomes of the Church after she returns from her secret retreat in the wilderness, till she is exhibited to us in the nineteenth chapter, as having made herself ready for the bridal ceremony......it may be proper, before I close the subject, to take a short view of those great events, which the prophecies both of the Old and New Testament lead us to expect...The first of these is the conversion and restoration of the Jews...their restoration is to happen during a time of trouble, such as there never was since there was a nation...The number of the elect 144,000, who are sealed, for preservation from the last awful calamities, will have been completed, by means of that final preaching of the Gospel...the elect of God shall be gathered from the four winds of heaven to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, and the final judgments shall be let loose against those nations which have named the name of Christ, but have not departed from iniquity... A question will here naturally suggest itself to the mind of the reader. What is to become of the righteous in the awful period described in the foregoing prophecies? Now, the answer to this inquiry has been given, in considering the seventh chapter of the Apocalypse...This tribulation is manifestly that of the closing period of the earthquake and vials; and we are thus assured, that the righteous are to be preserved during the final display of divine wrath...a call is given to the righteous to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb...These considerations ought surely to awaken the Christian to pray more earnestly for his country, and to quicken his diligence, that he may individually be accounted worthy to ESCAPE the approaching wrath, and to stand before the Son of Man...Our Lord Himself has emphatically assured us, 'behold I come as a thief...' from these words we may certainly conclude, that He will come at a time, when few even of his own people expect it...No human power or wisdom can avert the terrific events which are approaching. But if, through faith in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, we wash our robes, and make them white in the Blood of the Lamb, then we shall individually be numbered with that great multitude, who shall come out of the great tribulation..."
("A Dissertation on the Seals and Trumpets of the Apocalypse," 1817, pp.273-275, 290, 334, 340, 347, 354)

Before reading the next excerpt from Cuninghame, it might be helpful to read over these words in 1813 one more time! All of the elements of the two-stage coming and pre-trib rapture are beginning to come to fruition in 1813-1817 (years before the Irvingite manifestations or McDonald).

In the following years, Cuninghame built upon his own views and developed a clear two-stage coming of the Lord. Cuninghame would quote Joseph Mede and some early Jewish writings as earlier sources of the Bible's pre-trib rapture teaching. He would also become more clear about what happens to the ready saints during the time of trouble. They would be "translated"!:

"There is a double gathering of his saints unto our Lord, during his abode in the air; first of the 144,000 sealed ones, and secondly, the white-robed palm-bearers (Rev.vii.9-17). The former is at the first moment of the Advent, and the last at a later period...There are two events selected by our Lord himself, as the special types of His Advent, and the state of the world in that day...it is manifest that the Coming of the Lord is to find the world in a state of peace...the ten virgins...are all...found slumbering and sleeping...as soon as the Lord comes and takes to himself the Wise Virgins, the torrent of calamity which is to destroy the prophetic earth shall immediately thereafter break forth...But I remark that there is another class of passages, which no less certainly indicates that his coming shall be in a season of shaking and alarm and fear..." (1836 -perhaps a later edition)

From The Kingdom Alert, #117 (6-9-01)
* * * * * * *
Pastor Joey Faust
Kingdom Baptist Church
700 Cordes Dr., Venus, Texas, 76084
http://www.KingdomBaptist.org

END

The Early New Testament Church Elders Understood the Rapture

We've heard a bunch of lying propaganda on the internet from PreTrib Rapture bashers, alleging that John Darby invented the doctrine of the Rapture, which is not true. Although the word itself may or may not have been invented in 1834, popularized by Mr. Darby, the doctrine of the saints being “CAUGHT UP” is plainly taught in 1st Thessalonians 4:17 and was clearly understood by the early Church elders...

    What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture?
    August 2, 2013 | By Beginning and End

        “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” –1 Thessalonians 4:17

    What did the first century church fathers believe about the Rapture? Were they pre-tribulation or post-tribulation? What did the disciples of the Apostles of Jesus Christ teach about the Rapture?

    This article will present the writings of the early church fathers – from those who learned under the disciples of Jesus Christ, to the church leaders of the second and third centuries, on the Rapture – the supernatural removal of all Bible-believing Christians from Earth to enter Heaven. While the writings of the first, second and third century Christian church fathers are not Scripture and not on par with the Bible in any way, it is informative to see how the early church leaders interpreted Scripture in addition to what the learned directly from those closest to The Lord Jesus Christ. And definitively, the few writings still in existence on the end times, put the timing of the Rapture before the Great Tribulation.

    This article will also serve to dispel some of the common misconceptions about Rapture theology as being something invented in the 19th century by a man named John Darby...

        “John Darby Invented The Pre-Tribulation Rapture”

    John Darby has been incorrectly credited with “inventing” the Rapture. All over the internet there are many articles and videos that claim that the Rapture doctrine was “invented” in 1830 by a man named John Darby. The following is an excerpt that summarizes this theory:

        “The Rapture doctrine, which was the invention of the Plymouth Brethren led by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), has today been adopted by most Baptist, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and a variety of other fundamentalist sects. The idea that Jesus Christ will return for His true Church just before the beginning of the Great Tribulation in a secret gathering or “catching away” was an important part of Darby’s teaching. The movement in which this teaching began originated in small groups in England and Ireland about 1828 and by 1831 was part of the official teaching of the Plymouth Brethren. By 1860 the “rapture” had made its way to the United States.

        Today, prophecy pundits and “end-time” revivalists preach the Rapture as if it were established dogma from the time of Christ until the present. The truth is that the first historical reference to the Rapture doctrine comes from the Plymouth Brethren. Not only is the Rapture not found in the teachings of the Church, but even “end-time” heretics throughout the centuries never dreamed of proposing such a novel idea. For example, the 4th century Montanists, who preached both pre-millennialism and that they knew when Christ would return, never ventured so far as to create another 2nd coming of the Lord in a secret rapture.

        In all the writings of the Scriptures, the Early Fathers, and the Ecumenical Councils, there is no mention of two 2nd comings of Christ.” (source) [Emphasis added].

    In short, the objection is that rather than being a real part of the Bible, the entire idea of a pre-Great Tribulational Rapture was just an invention by Darby and “not even heretics” ever used it. This is very strong language, but is it true? Were there no ancient Christian writings about the church being Raptured before Great Tribulation? An examination of early church writings shows that this charge is false and there were some church fathers who indeed wrote about the Rapture.

    Irenaeus
    Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

    In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just.

    On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:

        “Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

    Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term “caught up” which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of harpazo, the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible describing the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4. He then quotes Matthew 24:21 where The Lord Jesus Christ says: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” And it is during this time that those who convert to Christianity during the final years will receive the incorruptible crown mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:25. In Irenaeus’ belief, the Rapture took place prior to the end times Great Tribulation.

    Cyprian
    Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.

    In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

        “We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

    Again we see use of language commonly found in reference to the Rapture as Cyprian describes the judgments of the end times as “imminent.” And he makes his belief on the timing of the Rapture when he wrote that Christians will have an “early departure” and be “delivered” from the devastating global judgments that come during the Day of The Lord.

    In line with the Apostle Paul who wrote that “God has not appointed us to wrath, but salvation...” Cyprian expressed joy and encourages the believing reader to rejoice that the Church will be “taken away” before the disastrous Great Tribulation. Just as The Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 used the same language of one “taken away” and the other “left.” Additionally Cyprian references the mansions which The Lord Jesus Christ promises to come back and take His believers to in John 14.

        “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” – John 14:1-3.

    As Beginning and End detailed in our article “The Red Moon Rapture – The Biblical Timing of The Rapture”, in both the Matthew 24 passages (“one taken, the other left”) and in John 14 (“..receive you unto myself..”) the Greek work paralambanō is used for taken and receive. The meaning of that word is “join to one’s self” indicating that Jesus is coming to fully unify with His church – which takes place at the Rapture. Clearly Cyprian believed and taught that the Rapture takes place before the Great Tribulation.

    Ephraim The Syrian

    Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:

    In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

        “We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

        Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”

    With a sense of urgency and strong warning, Ephraim writes that the end times are upon this world and could start at any moment. This text very clearly states the saints and elect of God, all born again believers in The Lord Jesus Christ, will be “taken to the Lord” before the Great Tribulation. Ephraim also identifies the Old Testament “Day of The Lord” and the end times Great tribulation as the same event (in line with the teachings of the Beginning and End Rapture Series). Ephraim quotes Amos 5:18 which says: “Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.”

    The point he makes is that a Christian should know the Day of The Lord is coming. In the first part of the passage Ephraim notes that:

        “We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated)” And not only that but that true Christians will be taken away before it starts.

    Here he is describing the first 3 of the first 4 seals of Revelation 6 – wars, famines and plagues. These are the same end times signs Jesus Christ describes in Matthew 24:

        And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. – Matthew 24:3-8.

    Jesus describes these events as “the beginning of sorrows.” He also says that when these things come to pass “the end is not yet.” Ephraim’s writing agrees with this interpretation as he says those same events have been “fulfilled (consummated)” in his day, but it was still not the actual Great Tribulation. This also falls in line with Beginning and End’s Rapture series as explained in our article Who Are The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse? (The first four seals of Revelation 6 were opened at the time Jesus Christ ascended to Heaven. And the rapture itself does not occur until the opening of the 6th Seal.)

    Ephraim in very strong language warns the reader not to be consumed with the cares of the world because the world in its current form, is coming to an end. As the Second Advent or Coming of The Lord Jesus Christ grows near, believers are to look to Heaven and set their hearts on pleasing God. It is clear that Ephraim distinguishes the Second Coming of Christ from the rapture, placing the Rapture before the Great Tribulation to come.

    The Early Church Believed In The Rapture

    The ancient writings are clear – the belief in the Rapture has existed since the days of the Apostles.

    Although there are not a great number of writings on the end times from the early centuries of the church, there is no question that there was a belief in the Rapture among the church fathers and they taught it with strong language and scriptural support. In terms of the timing of the Rapture, the early church fathers placed it before the end times Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation. The writings of early saints in the church are not Scripture and should not be treated on the same level of the Bible. These writings also do not “prove” that the pre-Great Tribulation Rapture or the Beginning and End Rapture series are correct. Only rightly divided Scripture from the Bible can determine if a specific belief is accurate or in error. But the writings of church fathers can serve as useful commentaries (just as we use Bible commentaries today in our studies) and certainly prove that the Rapture doctrine existed well before John Darby and has been a part of Christian belief since the earliest days of the Apostles.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/Doctrines/rapture_history.htm
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2015, 08:14:19 pm »

Yeah, I'm seeing more KJB ministries, in particular, fall for the post-trib lie.(I'll admit, I listen to a couple of them, as they put out alot of edifying sermons, street preaching, et al)

Although to be frank, this is expected in our end times - b/c deception has just increased 10-fold now, to the point where when one deception gets spotted and exposed, another bigger deception has already trickled its way in.

Personally, I am more concerned with Creation Science getting attacked, even worse than the pre-trib rapture doctrine.
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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2015, 08:16:14 pm »

Brother Kent, you have believed a LIE

 Margaret MacDonald is not the mother of the pre-tribulation rapture
by Todd Strandberg

    I have visited just about every anti-rapture web site on the internet. One common point used on nearly every one of these sites to oppose the pretribulation doctrine is the claim that the rapture theory was started by a Scottish girl named Margaret MacDonald. Many critics of the rapture declare that MacDonald received her vision from demonic origins, and that she then passed on the message of that vision to infect the Church. Being a staunch pretribulationist, I'm at a loss to explain the connection between Margaret MacDonald and my beliefs in the rapture. I cannot recall ever hearing pre-trib prophetic speakers say, "I believe in the rapture because Margaret MacDonald told me so."

    After reading and listening to a number of web sites, books, and radio programs that promote the idea that Margaret MacDonald started pretribulationism, I decided to look into the matter.

    To be certain that I made no oversight, I searched through my library of prophecy books for references citing Margaret MacDonald as the founder of the rapture teaching. My hunt turned out to be in vain. It was like looking for the cartoon character "Where's Waldo." Only in this case, no Waldo was to be found.

    If MacDonald was the founder of the pretribulation rapture, as most anti-rapture proponents say, then someone needs to explain why rapturists have failed to give her credit. You would expect to find dozens of books that expound upon her every word. From reading the writings of anti-rapture authors, one would think we pre-tribbers would be reverencing MacDonald as Catholics do Mary. But clearly we don't. Pre-tribbers don't go around reciting, "Hail Margaret full of grace, blessed art thou among visionaries, pray for us sinners at the time of the rapture." If MacDonald were the founder of the doctrine of rapture, the lack of recognition we rapture believers pay her would be comparable to the modern Mormon church failing to recognize Joseph Smith as its founder or to the Jehovah's witnesses neglecting to identify Charles Russell as that group's originator. Poor Margaret MacDonald, she gets all of the blame, but none of the credit.

    After having examined the claims of those critical of the rapture, I have found holes large enough to drive a dump truck through in their so-called evidence:

    The first problem with the MacDonald origin is the fact that she wasn't the one who widely taught the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture. A man named John Darby is believed by many to have sparked modern interest in the rapture. The question here is how Darby came to hear of MacDonald's vision. Proponents like Dave MacPherson and John L. Bray have never been able to prove that Darby had ever heard of MacDonald or her vision.

    Darby himself claims the revelation of the rapture came to him when he realized the distinction between Israel and the church.

    Darby reported that he discovered the rapture teaching in 1827, three years before MacDonald had her vision.

    When one closely examines MacDonald's vision, it becomes clear that her vision could not have been a pretribulational one. MacDonald looked for a "fiery trial which is to try us," and she foresaw the Church being purged by the Antichrist. Any pretribulation rapturist can tell you the Church will be removed before the advent of the Antichrist. John Bray, an anti-rapturist, said himself that Margaret MacDonald was teaching a single coming of our Lord Jesus. This contradicts current rapture doctrine, which teaches a two-staged event - first, Christ coming for His Church and second, seven years later His return to earth. With so many contradictions between MacDonald's vision and today's pretribulationism, it is difficult to see any linkage.

    By far the biggest mistake post-tribulationists have made attacking the rapture is claiming that the pretribulation rapture wasn't taught before 1830. In fact, John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist evangelist, offered $500 to anyone who could prove that someone taught the rapture doctrine prior to MacDonald's 1830 vision. Bray was first proven wrong when he wrote in a newsletter, "Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory." Bray stuck his neck out again when he made another $500 offer to anyone who could provide a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's 1812 writings. Apparently he had to cough up the 500 bucks. I quote him again: "I offered $500 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time." No one claimed that offer until someone found writings that forced Bray to write the following: "Now I have the Photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pretribulation rapture before Lacunza." Lately, a number of other sources have been located that teach the pretribulation rapture--some written as early as the second century. Where does this leave Margaret MacDonald?

    In my life here on earth, I've made a number of observations that I regard as undeniable truths. One of these is the fact that the truth will suffer attacks with no one defending it, while a lie will be allowed to proliferate with no one challenging it. This seems to have taken place in the case of the rapture. For years on end, anti-rapturists have been allowed to attack pretribulationism freely. One assailant called the rapture the mark of the beast while another remarked that when Jesus returns at the battle of Armageddon, He will fight against those who believe in the rapture. The people who should have been contending for the rapture, for the most part, just said, "That may be your opinion."

    Finally, it appears that those who hold to a pretribulation rapture are beginning to counter the ridiculous charges. A number of books have been published that cite several pre-MacDonald sources describing a raptured Church. Author Grant Jeffrey deserves a good deal of praise for his work in discovering many of these sources.

    As far as being able to find the pretribulation rapture in the Bible, we don't need to be rocket scientists to discover it. For me, locating the rapture doctrine in the Bible was as simple as finding evidence that Jesus Christ is Messiah.

    The evidence that Christians believed in the rapture long before MacDonald does not seem to have sunk into the minds of those opposed to the rapture. They still teach that she is the founder of pretribulationism. When someone is presented with overwhelming proof that he or she is wrong and refuses to accept that truth, then we certainly may conclude that he or she is in spiritual darkness.

    I would like to conclude by saying that no evidence whatsoever points to MacDonald as the source of pretribulationism. Every major prophetic author alive today claims the Word of God as the foundation for belief in the rapture. Both Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul made statements that clearly establish the rapture doctrine. Jesus said, in Matthew 25:13, "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." Paul affirmed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

https://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html
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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2015, 08:27:12 pm »

Yeah, Margaret MacDonald had a "vision" of a POST-TRIB RAPTURE!(which mirrors what the Catholic Catechism says)

If you go to any search engine and type "Margaret MacDonald post-trib rapture", you will find it in her OWN WRITINGS!
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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2015, 08:39:10 pm »

Kent, simple questions.

Is Jesus on a horse at the rapture?

Is Jesus on a horse at the second coming?

Who comes with Jesus at the Rapture?

Who comes with Jesus at the second coming?

Where is the CHURCH in Revelations after chapter 4?

 
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2015, 08:40:15 pm »



Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

by Thomas Ice

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Critics of pretribulationism sometimes state that belief in the rapture is a doctrinal development of recent origin. They argue that the doctrine of the rapture or any semblance of it was completely unknown before the early 1800s and the writings of John Nelson Darby. One of the most vocal and sensational critics of the rapture is Dave MacPherson, who argues that, "during the first 18 centuries of the Christian era, believers were never 'Rapture separaters' [sic]; they never separated the minor Rapture aspect of the Second Coming of Christ from the Second Coming itself."1

A second critic, John Bray, also vehemently opposes a pretribulational rapture, writing, "this teaching is not a RECOVERY of truth once taught and then neglected. No, it never was taught-for 1800 years nearly no one knew anything about such a scheme."2 More recently, pre-trib opponent Robert Van Kampen proclaimed, "The pretribulational rapture position with its dual parousias was unheard of in church history prior to 1830."3 In our previous issue of Pre-Trib Perspectives, I noted that pre-wrath advocate Marvin Rosenthal has also joined the chorus.4

Christian reconstructionists have also consistently and almost universally condemned premillennialism and pretribulationism, favoring instead, postmillen-nialism. One sample of their prolific and often vitri-olic opposition can be seen in Gary North's derisive description of the rapture as "the Church's hoped-for Escape Hatch on the world's sinking ship," which he, like MacPherson, believes was invented in 1830.5

How to Find the Rapture in History

Is pretribulationism as theologically bankrupt as its critics profess, or are there answers to these charges? If there are reasonable answers, then the burden of proof and historical argumentation shifts back to the critics. Rapture critics must acknowledge and interact with the historical and theological evidence.

Rapture critic William Bell has formulated three criteria for establishing the validity of a historical citation regarding the rapture. If any of his three criteria are met, then he acknowledges it is "of crucial importance, if found, whether by direct statement or clear inference." As will be seen, the Pseudo-Ephraem sermon meets not one, but two of his canons, namely, "Any mention that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years," and "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period."6

Pseudo-Ephraem's Rapture Statement

I vividly remember the phone call at my office late one afternoon from Canadian prophecy teacher and writer Grant Jeffrey.7 He told me that he had found an ancient pre-trib rapture statement. I said, "Let's hear it." He read the following to me over the phone:

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

I said that it sure sounds like a pre-trib statement and began to fire at him all the questions I have since received many times when telling others about the statement from Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.8 Grant's phone call started me on journey through many of the substantial libraries throughout the Washington, D.C. area in an effort to learn all I could about this historically significant statement. The more information I acquired led me to conclude that Grant is right to conclude that this is a pre-trib rapture statement of antiquity.

Who is Pseudo-Ephraem?

The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church. He was well-known for his poetics, rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion, Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin.

It is not at all unreasonable to expect that a prolific and prominent figure such as Ephraem would have writings ascribed to him. While there is little support for Ephraem as the author of the Sermon on the End of the World, Caspari and Alexander have demonstrated that Pseudo-Ephraem was "heavily influenced by the genuine works of Ephraem."9 What is more difficult, though secondary to the main purpose of this article, is determining the exact date, purpose, location of, and extent of subsequent editorial changes to the sermon.10

Suggestions on the date of the writing of the original sermon range from as early as Wilhelm Bousset's 373 date,11 to Caspari's estimation of sometime between 565 and 627.12 Paul Alexander, after reviewing all the argumentation, favors a date for the final form similar to that suggested by Caspari,13 but Alexander also states simply, "It will indeed not be easy to decide on the matter."14 All are clear that it had to have been written before the advent of Islam.

Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon

The sermon consists of just under 1500 words, divided into ten sections and has been preserved in four Latin manuscripts. Three of these date from the eighth century and ascribe the sermon to Ephraem. A fourth manuscript from the ninth century, claims not Ephraem, but Isidore of Seville (d. 636) as author.15 Additionally, there are subsequent Greek and Syriac versions of the sermon which have raised questions regarding the language of the original manuscript. On the basis of lexical analysis and study of the biblical citations within the sermon with Latin, Greek, and Syriac versions of the Bible, Alexander believed it most probable that the homily was composed in Syriac, translated first into Greek, and then into Latin from the Greek.16 Regardless of the original language, the vocabulary and style of the extant copies are consistent with the writings of Ephraem and his era. It appears likely that the sermon was written near the time of Ephraem and underwent slight change during subsequent coping.

What is most significant for present-day readers is the fact that the sermon was popular enough to be translated into several languages fairly soon after its composition. The significance of the sermon for us today is that it represents a prophetic view of a pre-trib rapture within the orthodox circles of its day.

The sermon is built around the three themes of the title On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World and proceeds chronologically. The fact that the pre-trib statement occurs in section 2, while the antichrist and tribulation are developed throughout the middle sections, followed by Christ's second coming to the earth in the final section supports a pre-trib sequence. This characteristic of the sermon fits the first criteria outlined by William Bell, namely "that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years." Thus, phase one is the rapture statement from section 2; the interval of 3 1/2 years, 42 months, and 1,260 days, said to be the tribulation in sections 7 and 8; the second phase of Christ's return is noted in section 10 and said to take place "when the three and a half years have been completed."17

Why Pseudo-Ephraem's Statement is Pretribulational

After learning of Pseudo-Ephraem's rapture statement, I shared it with a number of colleagues. My favorite approach was to simply read the statement, free of any introductory remarks, and ask what they thought. Every person, whether pre-trib or not, concluded that it was some kind of pre-trib statement. A few thought it was a statement from such pre-trib proponents like John Walvoord orCharles Ryrie. Most noted the clear statement concerning the removal of believers before thetribulation as a reason for thinking the statement pre-trib. This is Bell's second criteria for identifying a pre-trib statement from the past, namely, "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period." Note the following reasons why this should be taken as a pre-trib statement:

1) Section 2 of the sermon begins with a statement about imminency: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent [Latin "immineat"] or overhanging."18 This is similar to the modern pre-trib view of imminency and considering the subsequent rapture statements supports a pre-trib scenario.

2) As I break down the rapture statement, notice the following observations: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered . . ." Gathered where? A later clause says they "are taken to the Lord." Where is the Lord? Earlier in the paragraph the sermon speaks of "the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion. . ." Thus the movement is from the earth toward the Lord who is apparently in heaven. Once again, in conformity to a translation scenario found in the pre-trib teaching.

The next phrase says that the gathering takes place "prior to the tribulation that is to come. . ." so we see that the event is pretribulational and the tribulation is future to the time in which Pseudo-Ephraem wrote.

The purpose for the gathering was so that they would not "see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of their sins." Here we have the purpose of the tribulation judgments stated and that was to be a time of judgment upon the world because of their sin, thus, the church was to be taken out.

3) Finally, the Byzantine scholar Paul Alexander clearly believed that Pseudo-Ephraem was teaching what we call today a pre-trib rapture. According to Alexander, most Byzantine apocalypses were concerned with how Christians would survive the time of severe persecution by Antichrist. The normal approach given by other apocalyptic texts was a shortening of the time to three and a half years, enabling the survival of some Christians.19 Unlike those texts, this sermon has Christians being removed from the time of tribulation. Alexander observed:

It is probably no accident that Pseudo-Ephraem does not mention the shortening of the time intervals for the Antichrist's persecution, for if prior to it the Elect are 'taken to the Lord,' i.e., participate at least in some measure in beatitude, there is no need for further mitigating action on their behalf. The Gathering of the Elect according to Pseudo-Ephraem is an alternative to the shortening of the time intervals.20

Conclusion

Regardless of what else the writer of this sermon believed, he did believe that all believers would be removed before the tribulation-a pre-trib rapture view. Thus, we have seen that those who have said that there was no one before 1830 who taught the pre-trib rapture position will have to revise their statements by well over 1,000 years. This statement does not prove the pre-trib position, only the Bible can do that, but it should change many people's historical views on the matter.

ENDNOTES

http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/examining_an_ancient.htm
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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2015, 02:48:22 am »

Brother Kent, Why do you follow the Catholic teaching? The Catholic church was teaching AGAINST a pre trib rapture all the way back in the 400's AD. How could they, the Catholic church, teach against a doctrine that you say didnt exist until the late 1800's?   




"In this video I show that the Roman Catholic Church teaches that "Christians" go through the 7 year Great Tribulation. I show their own website, where a Catholic Professor uses the same arguments that ALL Post-Trib. Rapture believers use to disprove the Pre-Trib. Rapture. I also examine what the problem is with teaching that the Body of Christ is going to have to endure the "time of Jacob's trouble." (Jeremiah 30:7). Christians who believe this way are spending all their time preparing to survive for 7 years, rather than going out after the lost and preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ!"

Quote
Quote
Origins of the Rapture

The Rapture seems to have been invented by a British religious figure named John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). He was ordained in the Church of Ireland and worked there to convert Catholics away from their folly. He was extremely pessimistic about what he saw as the state of the world and the state of the Church. He eventually left it, joining a dissident group called the Plymouth Brethren of which he soon became a prominent leader.

About 1830, he began teaching that Jesus’ coming at the end of time would be preceded by a “rapture of the saints.” Some members of his own Brethren community objected that this was not biblically founded, but Darby dismissed any criticism. It had, he claimed, been revealed to him by God.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1005.asp

Quote
Church teaching on the Rapture

A s Roman Catholics, we might ask, “Has the Church censured anything regarding the Rapture doctrine?” The answer would have to be no and yes.

No, to my knowledge, there has never been an explicit statement relative to the Rapture. But as we have seen, the Rapture forms part of a particular millennial expectation based on a particular use of biblical texts. Yes, the Church has explicitly rejected both this kind of speculation and this way of interpreting the Scriptures.

The Council of Ephesus (431) denounced it as “a deviation and a fable.” It was denounced again in 1516 at the Fifth Lateran Council. In 1824, the work of Manuel Lacunza (noted above) was placed on the Index of Forbidden Books. In 1941 and 1944, responding to questions from the Archbishop of Santiago, Chile, the Congregation of the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) again rejected this kind of millennial speculation with explicit reference to the work of Lacunza. As recently as April 22, 1998, with the turn of the millennium approaching, Pope John Paul II warned again against this way of thinking.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1005.asp

 Cheesy woops...

Quote
CCC 675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.4 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth5 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.6

http://www.catholic-catechism.com/ccc_673.675.1216.2849.htm

Ah, yes, all rods lead back to Babylon/Rome. Guess you can see the pope behind the curtain who has been pushing the Church goes through Rapture beliefs for so long.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2015, 06:29:38 pm »

He put out his first YT webcast today - for the most part, it was very good. He just had a Q&A session answering emails.

However, at one point he answered a question over over post-trib beliefs - honestly, he didn't make any sense(that my mind just wandered throughout the 3 minutes he explained it).
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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2015, 09:09:12 pm »

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« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2015, 11:45:07 am »

I'm glad Bryan is doing this.

1 John 3:18  My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

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« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2015, 08:49:53 am »

Mark, what is your take on this?



I'll admit - as much as I enjoy Hovind's current Q&A YT video sessions - at the same time doctrinally he seems to be a bit off(ie-contradicts stuff he's said in his pre-prison videos). I'm concerned for Hovind too.
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« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2015, 06:06:24 pm »

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Mark, what is your take on this?

Im sure you have seen my open letters to Kent Hovind in this thread right? I love Kent, i listen to his 7 vids at least once a month while hiking. I think they are some of the best videos that a person can watch. Now i do agree with Bryan that Kent might have been tortured while in prison. He just might be a subject of MK UKULTRA. If you watch when Kent talks in his new vids he is speaking only out of one side of his mouth. He was not like that before he went to prison. Something happened to him in there. BUT that being said. Kent came out against pre trib BEFORE he went to prison. And i think Bryan is right on. Kent started hanging around some bad people.
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« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2015, 07:25:58 pm »

Im sure you have seen my open letters to Kent Hovind in this thread right? I love Kent, i listen to his 7 vids at least once a month while hiking. I think they are some of the best videos that a person can watch. Now i do agree with Bryan that Kent might have been tortured while in prison. He just might be a subject of MK UKULTRA. If you watch when Kent talks in his new vids he is speaking only out of one side of his mouth. He was not like that before he went to prison. Something happened to him in there. BUT that being said. Kent came out against pre trib BEFORE he went to prison. And i think Bryan is right on. Kent started hanging around some bad people.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think he ever had a good understanding of the rapture doctrine. I've seen a few of his presentations on YT from the 1990's, and he seemed to be pretty shaky on this subject. I say this b/c I'm speaking from experience - you can say you're pre-trib until you're blue in the face - but if you don't have good understanding of the scriptures(and strong faith) concerning this, then eventually the house of cards will fall on you.

And yes, having seen his new vids - he just seems pretty shaky now on other important doctrines of the bible. For example, he seems to be embracing Easy Believism now(in his old vids, he was firm on repentance).

Also - his book he put out(which Bryan will be exposing soon) - I believe it was written BEFORE the FIRST sodomite marriage ruling in 2013. IOW, in light of all that has happened at breakneck speed in recent months, this book is definitely dumpster-heap material now. I'm not a prophet, but if anyone believes it'll be 2028 before the LORD comes back, then you are sorely deceived.

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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2015, 10:30:13 am »





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