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What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?

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Author Topic: What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?  (Read 12824 times)
Mark
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« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2014, 05:16:55 am »

Concerning creation
Gap theory in 1814 Thomas Chalmers - this is likely why he fell for it...

RSV Genesis 1:5,8
God called the light day and the darkness he called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

KJV
And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

RSV
And god called the firmament heavan. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

KJV
And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

This is likely why modern-day Christians believe in evolution.

EXACTLY, You have to use a different Bible or change the KJB in order to make gap theory work. This is nothing but the same thing the serpent did to Eve in the Garden, nothing more.
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« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2014, 05:55:43 am »

Mike Hoggard on the Gap Theory Watch 1:33:15 to 1:44:12

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« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2014, 11:38:54 pm »

The modern Gap theory may have originated in recent centuries but the belief in a civilization that pre-dates man is very old. It`s found in the mythology and ancient religeons of all cultures. So it`s a really old idea.

Myself, I like contemplating Biblical mysteries as well as mysteries of the world. I don`t think believing in a gap theory or not believing it has any impact on salvation. For that reason I`m not inclined to cast stones at anyone on either side of the issue.

Calling it a theory is an admission that it isn`t and/or can`t be proven. If you like that sort of thing it`s worthwhile to look at as an issue. In studying what the Bible says about the angels some questions are raised and these are fun to look at.
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« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2014, 04:44:58 am »

Myself, I like contemplating Biblical mysteries as well as mysteries of the world. I don`t think believing in a gap theory or not believing it has any impact on salvation. For that reason I`m not inclined to cast stones at anyone on either side of the issue.

i dont believe it will impact your salvation but it will impact whether you believe the Bible or not. If Satan can get you to believe things that are unscriptural then that is the first step he will then try you on other verses to make you doubt or not believe, it is a path that goes downhill this whole gap theory that the Earth is millions of years old is very subtle, plus Satan likes to get into our imaginations to turn us away from the truth, eg the modern video games industry which in sales is larger than Hollywood. If the Earth was millions of years old wouldnt the Bible be more clearer about it? No the Earth is only about 6000 years old according to Genesis 1 and 2. You dont have to understand everything one can just believe the Bible. Not trying to cast stones just saying my point of view.

Calling it a theory is an admission that it isn`t and/or can`t be proven. If you like that sort of thing it`s worthwhile to look at as an issue. In studying what the Bible says about the angels some questions are raised and these are fun to look at.

What does one want to know?
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« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2014, 06:28:43 am »

i dont believe it will impact your salvation but it will impact whether you believe the Bible or not. If Satan can get you to believe things that are unscriptural then that is the first step he will then try you on other verses to make you doubt or not believe, it is a path that goes downhill this whole gap theory that the Earth is millions of years old is very subtle, plus Satan likes to get into our imaginations to turn us away from the truth, eg the modern video games industry which in sales is larger than Hollywood. If the Earth was millions of years old wouldnt the Bible be more clearer about it? No the Earth is only about 6000 years old according to Genesis 1 and 2. You dont have to understand everything one can just believe the Bible. Not trying to cast stones just saying my point of view.

What does one want to know?


If we are being led by and are following after the Holy Spirit then we will always be in a process of being led into truth. People get snared into false doctrine when they make a decision that they know it and no longer need to grow in the knowledge and wisdom of God.

As an example and I mean no malice in saying this, you say the earth is 6000 years old as a fact,which would make its creation date in the mid 3880`s BC. I think that to be an untenable position both Biblically and otherwise. As proof you are citing Genesis 1 and 2. Show me where the Bible states it.

The belief that God gave man exactly 6000 years is man made doctrine. There are no references to support this view and you were influenced to believe it by a person/persons because no one comes to such a conclusion by studying the Bible. It`s very easy to believe things like this if you don`t question and seek as the Bereans did in the book of Acts.

As to the question "what does one want to know". Well I wanted to know if there is a time gap as the Gap theory claims.

I haven`t a clue what the gap theory says or for that matter what the theory of evolution says. I haven`t read anything of that nature in many years and I tend to forget man made theology fairly quickly.

But some years ago I considered the possiblity of a time gap as part of a larger Bible study on angels and what I might do if you are interested is present the Biblical evidence and logic behind the concept for your consideration.

I saw on this thread somewhere where someone stated that Genesis 1:2 occurs one day after Genesis 1:1. If someone believes that then they believe in a time gap albeit a small one   Grin



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« Reply #65 on: September 25, 2014, 08:35:53 am »

i dont believe it will impact your salvation but it will impact whether you believe the Bible or not. If Satan can get you to believe things that are unscriptural then that is the first step he will then try you on other verses to make you doubt or not believe, it is a path that goes downhill this whole gap theory that the Earth is millions of years old is very subtle, plus Satan likes to get into our imaginations to turn us away from the truth, eg the modern video games industry which in sales is larger than Hollywood. If the Earth was millions of years old wouldnt the Bible be more clearer about it? No the Earth is only about 6000 years old according to Genesis 1 and 2. You dont have to understand everything one can just believe the Bible. Not trying to cast stones just saying my point of view.

What does one want to know?


Correct - from what I understand, the whole gap theory heresy was made up in the 1800's, BEFORE the theory of evolution was put out.

IOW, the gap theory not only targeted Christians for deception, but it eventually opened the doors for more deception like this evolution nonsense(and subsequently Clarence Larkin in the 20th century pushed this gap theory, where he said there was millions of years of a "gap" b/w verses 1 and 2 - he used the perverted Revised Standard Version bible to make his claims to boot).

Yes, as Christians we all get deceived - but at the same time it's very important that we do NOT let our guards down and allow those Trojan Horses to creep through.

1Peter 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
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« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2014, 07:17:55 pm »

I didn`t see a response to my last post so I`ll proceed on this gap thing.

Let me say first that I`m not out to attack anybody, not interested in defending gap theory, old earth theory, or evolution theory. I don`t know much about any of those things.

But I believe the Bible indicates a time gap between the first 2 verses of the Bible. It`s impossible to say how long of a gap. I haven`t a clue how long the gap was. I just know and believe there was one and I will offer my Biblical proof that demonstrates it.

First thing is the word heaven. When the bible says heaven it could mean the atmosphere which is called the firmament in scripture. Or it could mean the place in the spirit world where God lives. Since Genesis 1:1 says God made the heaven and the earth we have to know which heaven the verse is talking about.

I rule out the firmament heaven on the following basis.

) If the verse is talking about the firmament then the order is wrong.God made the earth before he made the firmament so it should say "In the beginning God made the earth and the firmament" if that`s what it means.

2) the firmament is part of the earth so there is no reason to make the distinction between the two. It would just say "In the beginning God made the earth."


So it is my belief that the heaven in Genesis 1:1 is the spirit world which was made first, then the earth.

The scriptures are always logical and follow an order of things. Off the top of my head I can think of no instance where they deviate from logic and order. If you know of one feel free to share it with me.

As further proof, I offer these verses from Job 38

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Here we see God creating the earth. At this point the angels have already been created and are watching.
The angelic creation clearly predates the creation of the earth.

On a side note: verse 7 says the morning stars sang together. The only other reference of this nature is in reference to Lucifer as the morning star. The earth was created before the stars and stars do not sing  Shocked
So I believe that the morning stars are the first angels and the most powerful ones with the sons of God being that angels created after the morning stars.

Implications are this: The angelic creation predates the earth creation and per genesis 1:1 the angelic creation was a part of the creation of the heaven.

Another question: Why were the angels singing and shouting for joy when God made the earth? If God made the earth to be given to man then why the angelic joy? Logic indicates that the fallen angels became jealous when God gave the earth to man.

The only sense I can make out of this passage is to conclude that God made the earth for these angels. They had to be getting something out of it because they were celebrating like they had just won the superbowl.

The book of Jude indicates that angels have a estate, a habitation. This place is surely in the heaven.

In the Job passage God discusses the construction of earth. In Genesis 1:2 the earth has already been constructed. So this construction process had to occur during the Genesis 1:1 period.

Is it possible that God whipped up heaven and all the angels then rushed them out to watch Him do the Genesis creation? Sure it`s possible but I think highly improbable.

I believe that in the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. And then spent some time with His angels in the heaven that He made and that Genesis 1:2 picks up the story at a later time.

I think having a viewpoint that an angelic civilization had an age before Adam is important because there is a challenge to people of faith that is coming from the kingdom of darkness. We are confronted by it now and it`s challenge is going to grow stronger because disclosure by governments of certain evidence is coming. It`s on the one world agenda.

I have a few more verses I can inject into this but I`ll leave it where it is for now.


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« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2014, 09:02:21 pm »

Here's my question - where is the timing of Satan's fall from heaven?
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« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2014, 11:37:05 pm »

Here's my question - where is the timing of Satan's fall from heaven?

In the New Testament the casting out of Satan is mentioned in 3 places. These are Luke 10, John 12, and in the book of Revelation about chapter 8 or 9 I think.

In Luke 10 Jesus gives his eye witness account of seeing Satan fall from heaven. This event took place as Christ began to empower his disciples to cast out demons.

In John 12 Jesus states that the prince of this world aka Satan is being cast out of this world as the crucifixian begins to take place. I believe this begins the work of the believer to take things away from satans control for the Kingdom of God.

Lastly in Revelation an angelic war takes place resulting in the expulsion of Satan and his angels from heaven.

As a Bible believer I believe Jesus is a credible witness and that Satan was cast out during his lifetime. I believe that the process of casting Satan from the earth began with the crucifixian.

And I believe that Satan regained access to heaven due to the rejection of Jesus by the Jews and the fall of Israel which will result in the angelic war seen in revelation some time in the future.

This last comment I made requires clarification with the scriptures and pertains to dispensation issues. I might get into that headache at some point. LOL!  But I gotta get my computer upgraded first because I`ll need the search engine on Biblegateway.com it`s the best  Grin
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« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2014, 12:19:58 am »

Quote
But I gotta get my computer upgraded first because I`ll need the search engine on Biblegateway.com it`s the best

Download e-sword - it's worked really, really well for me. Very quick and accessible to everything.
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« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2014, 06:07:21 am »

Download e-sword - it's worked really, really well for me. Very quick and accessible to everything.

I`m dropping my pc off today so I should get it back in a couple. I`ll check out e-sword though. Thx  Smiley
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« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2014, 09:12:36 am »

Hey Mark - don't mean to call you out here - but what is your take on the timing of Satan's fall from heaven?
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« Reply #72 on: September 27, 2014, 04:20:33 am »

Here's my question - where is the timing of Satan's fall from heaven?

i'm glad you asked that because i had thought about that recently

i read the above posts i just want to point out

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

if this "serpent" is Satan (Mike Hoggard believes this) then this is the first occurrence of Satan falling.

Quote
In Luke 10 Jesus gives his eye witness account of seeing Satan fall from heaven.

Yeah but the thing is that it is in the past tense

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

which makes me go back in time to Genesis 3.

Hoggard believes that Satan is in a continual state of falling which started in Genesis 3. Do what you want with this reply it is something that i have just started looking at recently.
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« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2014, 06:15:44 am »

Hey Mark - don't mean to call you out here - but what is your take on the timing of Satan's fall from heaven?

It isnt mentioned in scripture as to the exact timing. Many people have speculated as to when it happened. Some say it happened right after creation, kind of hard to say that as the deceiver was still in Heaven in Job. Which takes place after Gen 3. I would say some time between Job and the start of the Gospels.
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« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2014, 12:11:22 pm »

i'm glad you asked that because i had thought about that recently

i read the above posts i just want to point out

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

if this "serpent" is Satan (Mike Hoggard believes this) then this is the first occurrence of Satan falling.

Yeah but the thing is that it is in the past tense

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

which makes me go back in time to Genesis 3.

Hoggard believes that Satan is in a continual state of falling which started in Genesis 3. Do what you want with this reply it is something that i have just started looking at recently.

On the first point: In my post I was addressing the physical removal of Satan from heaven which In my view has nothing to do with his spiritual fall. I realize that people usually fail to distinguish between the two. But it is a distinction that is important to make since all the new testment verses are about Satan`s physical removal, not his spiritual condition.

Jesus describes Satan as a murderer from the beginning and as the father of lies. This implies that satan was corrupt very early on. Murderer from the beginning might suggest that he was created in a fallen condition. But I think it more likely that satan is the same angel that is called Lucifer. Lucifer was perfect for awhile, then fell spiritually. And I believe this fall of Lucifer took place before adam was created. Some argue that Lucifer is not Satan but my thought is: Why does the Bible tell the Lucifer story unless Lucifer is Satan? To me it doesn`t make sense for the story to be there unless Lucifer and Satan are one and same.


On the fall as lightening past tense point. If I behold a star fall from the sky today and I tell you about it tomorrow I will say "I beheld and a star fell from the sky." Past tense doesn`t necessarilly mean a long time ago is my point.

It brings up a point here. What do you think Jesus was doing before He came to earth as a man? My view is: Jesus in His pre-human condition would have been the One throwing Satan out of heaven and making him fall like lightning. I think the fact that Jesus is eyewitnees to this fall implies this event happened while Jesus was on the earth as a man.
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« Reply #75 on: September 27, 2014, 12:16:29 pm »

It isnt mentioned in scripture as to the exact timing. Many people have speculated as to when it happened. Some say it happened right after creation, kind of hard to say that as the deceiver was still in Heaven in Job. Which takes place after Gen 3. I would say some time between Job and the start of the Gospels.

What about the Revelation passage? Satan is in heaven and it takes an angelic war to kick him out. Everything in Revelation past the letters to the churches is future from the time it was written.
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« Reply #76 on: September 27, 2014, 12:41:26 pm »

What about the Revelation passage? Satan is in heaven and it takes an angelic war to kick him out. Everything in Revelation past the letters to the churches is future from the time it was written.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


As we see from this passage, the War in Heaven happened and then Satan and his angels were cast out. AND then, Salvation through Jesus comes. VERSE 10.And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: This is when Jesus came to Earth and offered the Kingdom of Heaven, then established it at the cross. Now notice the second portion of that verse. for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Here we are shown that Satan is cast down during the time when the Lord was here.

And in the very next verse, And they overcame him him being Satan, by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. By the BLOOD of the Lamb and THEIR TESTIMONY. This is the church age. As this has been going on for 2000 years, not a future event.

So we see that Satan was cast out some time after Job but before the Gospels. I think this portion can be taken historically.
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« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2014, 12:52:27 pm »

Just an after thought here. In this passage we have a direct connection to the book of Job.

Rev 12:10
   
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


This is in reference to Job where Satan is accusing Job before God and we learn that he goes to and fro in the Earth.
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« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2014, 01:02:03 pm »

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


As we see from this passage, the War in Heaven happened and then Satan and his angels were cast out. AND then, Salvation through Jesus comes. VERSE 10.And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: This is when Jesus came to Earth and offered the Kingdom of Heaven, then established it at the cross. Now notice the second portion of that verse. for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Here we are shown that Satan is cast down during the time when the Lord was here.

And in the very next verse, And they overcame him him being Satan, by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. By the BLOOD of the Lamb and THEIR TESTIMONY. This is the church age. As this has been going on for 2000 years, not a future event.

So we see that Satan was cast out some time after Job but before the Gospels. I think this portion can be taken historically.

The salvation Revelation 12 is talking about is the salvation everyone will recieve at the first resurrection.
Among other things this fact is clearly indicated by verse 11 where people who gave their lives for Christ and had been faithful Christians were now recieving their salvation.

The Bible says that believers recieve an earnest portion of the Spirit for this life (present salvation) until the final redemption of the purchased possesion at the first resurrection (future salvation).

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« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2014, 01:10:25 pm »

The salvation Revelation 12 is talking about is the salvation everyone will recieve at the first resurrection.
Among other things this fact is clearly indicated by verse 11 where people who gave their lives for Christ and had been faithful Christians were now recieving their salvation.

The Bible says that believers recieve an earnest portion of the Spirit for this life (present salvation) until the final redemption of the purchased possion at the first resurrection (future salvation).



But the thing is, people have been giving up their lives for Jesus for 2000 years. Still going on. It doesnt start in the future, its been and still is happening. I see that passage as historical.
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« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2014, 01:12:42 pm »

But the thing is, people have been giving up their lives for Jesus for 2000 years. Still going on. It doesnt start in the future, its been and still is happening. I see that passage as historical.

Are you a Preterist? They think the passage is historical.

My take on the verse is: the people had all three characteristics in common. The overcame by the blood and by their testimony, and they all gave up their lives. So I believe that the people in verse 11 all die in the great tribulation which is a future event.

I believe verse 10 to reference the second coming of Christ. What people here call the church age will close out by having the churches broken up. The church age will not end in power, it ends with tribulation.
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« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2014, 01:26:34 pm »

Are you a Preterist? They think the passage is historical.

NO!!! no no no.But that one passage i think is a historical reference. I think the passage moves through time. Rev 12 tells a history along with the future events.

Quote
My take on the verse is: the people had all three characteristics in common. The overcame by the blood and by their testimony, and they all gave up their lives. So I believe that the people in verse 11 all die in the great tribulation which is a future event.

I believe verse 10 to reference the second coming of Christ. What people here call the church age will close out by having the churches broken up. The church age will not end in power, it ends with tribulation.

Thats fine. I still see it as history showing when he fell. Another point i could make, and this is just something ive been thinking about is, that there are no demons/devils in the Old Testament. But a whole bunch in the gospels and acts. And talked about in the rest of the New Testament. So something must have happened. Dont know if that works or not, but it is interesting to think about.
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« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2014, 01:28:42 pm »

NO!!! no no no.But that one passage i think is a historical reference. I think the passage moves through time. Rev 12 tells a history along with the future events.

LOL!!! Sorry I had to ask. I don`t like to waste my time on Preterists.
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« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2014, 01:34:20 pm »

LOL!!! Sorry I had to ask. I don`t like to waste my time on Preterists.

I know the feeling.  Grin The rest of it is future, i just see that one part telling the history of what happened. Also i really dont get how people can look at the book of REV and see it as all historical.
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« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2014, 01:40:55 pm »

I know the feeling.  Grin The rest of it is future, i just see that one part telling the history of what happened. Also i really dont get how people can look at the book of REV and see it as all historical.

I debated with some Preterist and they point to historical events in the 1st century to defend their belief.
That aspect was interesting to me and I have came to believe that the fall of Israel in the 1st century foreshadows the fall of the Gentiles at the end of this age.

I believe that in the 1st century God presented Israel with a legit opportunity to have all of their prophetic
promises fulfilled.

They blew it and God knew they would blow it but He was still faithful to his covenant with Abraham and gave them the chance.

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« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2014, 02:41:29 pm »

Just an after thought here. In this passage we have a direct connection to the book of Job.

Rev 12:10
   
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


This is in reference to Job where Satan is accusing Job before God and we learn that he goes to and fro in the Earth.

I think many events in the book of Revelation have foreshadow events that occurred in the first century.
The book of Revelation was given years after the ascension of Christ. All end of age Bible prophecy could have easily been fulfilled in the first century except for some of the things that are seen in Revelation.

Some things that happened before must happen again. The expulsion of satan from heaven could be one of those things. I can`t prove it but I suspect they`ve given satan the boot more then once  Grin
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« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2014, 03:42:55 pm »

I know the feeling.  Grin The rest of it is future, i just see that one part telling the history of what happened. Also i really dont get how people can look at the book of REV and see it as all historical.

Those Catholic bible versions have all but wiped out future promises to be given to Israel - for example in Rev 7(talking about the 144K witnesses) - they wipe out the word "children" in "children of Israel".
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« Reply #87 on: September 27, 2014, 08:25:53 pm »

Those Catholic bible versions have all but wiped out future promises to be given to Israel - for example in Rev 7(talking about the 144K witnesses) - they wipe out the word "children" in "children of Israel".

I`ve debated several catholics. I`ve yet to meet one who could use the Bible effectively. The smarter ones will insist on using early church writings to prove their points. It was a bit time consuming but I was able to use that to my advantage a bit as I found ways to use their text to prove my own points. It strained my brain pretty bad but it was fun  Grin
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« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2014, 04:54:38 am »

On the first point: In my post I was addressing the physical removal of Satan from heaven which In my view has nothing to do with his spiritual fall. I realize that people usually fail to distinguish between the two. But it is a distinction that is important to make since all the new testment verses are about Satan`s physical removal, not his spiritual condition.

double checking that now:

"Satan" occurs 36 times in the New Testament

Luke 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Jesus describes Satan as a murderer from the beginning and as the father of lies. This implies that satan was corrupt very early on. Murderer from the beginning might suggest that he was created in a fallen condition. But I think it more likely that satan is the same angel that is called Lucifer. Lucifer was perfect for awhile, then fell spiritually. And I believe this fall of Lucifer took place before adam was created. Some argue that Lucifer is not Satan but my thought is: Why does the Bible tell the Lucifer story unless Lucifer is Satan? To me it doesn`t make sense for the story to be there unless Lucifer and Satan are one and same.

Lucifer and Satan are the same yep, did Lucifer fall before Adam? well it is hard to say, Satan is a fallen cherub so when were the Cherubs made?

On the fall as lightening past tense point. If I behold a star fall from the sky today and I tell you about it tomorrow I will say "I beheld and a star fell from the sky." Past tense doesn`t necessarilly mean a long time ago is my point.

ok


It brings up a point here. What do you think Jesus was doing before He came to earth as a man? My view is: Jesus in His pre-human condition would have been the One throwing Satan out of heaven and making him fall like lightning. I think the fact that Jesus is eyewitnees to this fall implies this event happened while Jesus was on the earth as a man.


Where was Jesus before he became man? On the throne of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
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« Reply #89 on: September 28, 2014, 05:31:07 am »

double checking that now:

"Satan" occurs 36 times in the New Testament

Luke 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

(Nothing in those verses to indicate a spiritual fall at the time he is kicked out of heaven. By implication one can assume he was all ready in a spiritually fallen condition before the life of Christ. When satan met Jesus he already controls every evil country in the world and had enough power over them to offer them to Jesus. Note: Jesus didn`t contest satans power to give Him the kingdoms of the world, he just declined the offer.)

Lucifer and Satan are the same yep, did Lucifer fall before Adam? well it is hard to say, Satan is a fallen cherub so when were the Cherubs made?

(Before the foundation of the earth as confirmed by the book of Job.)


Where was Jesus before he became man? On the throne of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

(If Jesus is sitting on God`s throne then how is it that he is watching satan fall from the sky on the earth?
You might say he is watching from the throne but that makes the statement seem illogical and out of place to me.)
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