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Why can't I worship Devil Bands?

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Author Topic: Why can't I worship Devil Bands?  (Read 2637 times)
Mark
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« on: May 13, 2011, 04:14:12 am »

Let me start by saying there is no such thing as a "Christian metal band" or death metal or any of that other garbadge. and this article should be an eye opener for thse who think there is. 

Pro-life group calls for boycott of Christian band over charity tour for pro-abort teen website

A leading pro-life group for teens is calling for a boycott of a Christian metal band over its participation this month in a charity tour for a pro-abortion website.

Bryan Kemper, president of Stand True Ministries, revealed last week that the Pennsylvania-based band Texas in July is taking part in the Take Action Tour, which is raising funds this year for the website Sex, etc.  The Take Action Tour’s website says the organization will receive 10% of the proceeds from the tour.

Sex, etc. provides information on where to obtain abortions, linking to the National Abortion Federation and NARAL, and advises pregnant teens who are exploring their “options” to go to Planned Parenthood facilities.

They also criticize crisis pregnancy centers for offering “misleading and medically inaccurate information about abortion,” saying “their agenda is to dissuade women from obtaining abortions.”

The website also claims that “having an abortion will not alter your ability to become pregnant again later in life” and that there is “no evidence that having more than one abortion causes any health problems.”

After giving Texas in July a week to respond to his concerns, Kemper raised the issue on his blog May 2nd and called on supporters to join a boycott of the band through a Facebook page. 

The band responded on their Facebook page May 4th, insisting that their group “in no way favours abortion and are at a loss for words for those saying hurtful and untrue things about our band’s beliefs and motives.”

Along with their statement, Texas in July posted a statement from Sex, etc. claiming that the site provides “accurate, age-appropriate information.”  Using the language of abortion activists, the site’s statement also noted that it has contributors who are both “pro-choice and anti-choice.”

Kemper says his two main concerns are that the band is fundraising for the pro-abortion website, and that the band has directed kids to the site for “accurate information.”

“If this was just them playing with secular bands, I have no problem,” he told LifeSiteNews.  “But when a Christian band plays a full benefit tour and then encourages kids to spend their money when part of that money will be going to Sex, etc., that’s a problem.”

“When a Christian band like Texas in July is pointing kids to Sex, etc. for accurate information, that’s dangerous,” he added.

The band won support, however, from another pro-life group for teens, Rock for Life.  The group’s executive director, Erik Whittington, defended the group in a May 6th statement, and encouraged pro-lifers to support the band through the Facebook page ‘I Support Texas in July on the Take Action Tour’.

Whittington acknowledged that the tour “unfortunately” chose a “very questionable organization” to support, but said Texas in July “are most likely the only pro-life voice that will be heard on the Take Action tour. So, why are pro-lifers aggressively going after TIJ?”

He suggested the campaign should be directed at Sex, etc. or the Take Action Tour instead, and argued that Sex, etc. is “most likely spending more money than they’re making on this tour.”  He also suggested the band should continue the tour out of a duty to honor its contract.

Kemper told LifeSiteNews, however, that the Take Action Tour “very clearly was a fundraiser” for Sex, etc.

“We cannot as Christians point any kids to that website, which is definitely not accurate at all,” Kemper said.  “If they’re promoting this website to kids, parents need to know that.”

“I would encourage anybody that contacts the band to please do so in love and respect,” he added. “You have a better chance of maybe reaching to someone if we do it respectfully rather than out of anger.”

LifeSiteNews.com did not hear back from Texas in July by press time.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pro-life-group-calls-for-boycott-of-christian-band-over-charity-tour-for-pr?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+delicious%2Fgqlf+%28Christian+Headlines+Top+Headlines%29
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2011, 04:16:06 am »

of course i had to look at a vid of this band just to verify it. that lasted less than 10 seconds.  Cheesy

dont start it unless you have never heard this stuff before. only posting for refference.



This kind of stuff is of Satan.
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2011, 04:28:49 am »

I wont be listening  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2011, 02:26:06 pm »

13   For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 
14   And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 
15   Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (KJB)
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2011, 06:29:47 pm »

sheesh, they sound demonic. i would drop in on calvary churches in the past and they would have christian rock but not this stuff but a little levin.....
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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2011, 06:35:52 am »

Let me start by saying there is no such thing as a "Christian metal band" or death metal or any of that other garbadge. and this article should be an eye opener for thse who think there is.  ...

Hi Dok

I wish to take you on regarding this statement. As a Christian musician, and lover of metal music, I cannot believe what I am hearing. Can you please explain to me, firstly, how Christian metal is garbage? How can something done in the name of the Lord be regarded as garbage? Secondly, how can the actions of ONE band define your views on Christian metal?

I happen to be in a Christian metal band, and I find your statement offensive.
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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2011, 07:05:08 am »

Hi Dok

I wish to take you on regarding this statement. As a Christian musician, and lover of metal music, I cannot believe what I am hearing. Can you please explain to me, firstly, how Christian metal is garbage? How can something done in the name of the Lord be regarded as garbage? Secondly, how can the actions of ONE band define your views on Christian metal?

I happen to be in a Christian metal band, and I find your statement offensive.

Hello and welcome.  Smiley

Quote
firstly, how Christian metal is garbage?

Psalm 98:4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth

kind of sums it up there doesnt it.

Quote
How can something done in the name of the Lord be regarded as garbage?

Your kidding right? You must be young. The Catholic church claims to be in the name of the Lord. Would you like to go through their filth, all done in Jesus's name. Just because some says they are doing it in Jesus's name does not mean it is actually approved by Jesus himself.

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how can the actions of ONE band define your views on Christian metal?

easily, start here. http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,322.msg6998.html#msg6998

Also lets talk about your pic,

Seriously? a partial pentagram?
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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2011, 07:14:50 am »

Thanks for the welcome Dok.

I'm afraid that Psalm 98:4 does not sum anything up. Please explain how it does?

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Just because some says they are doing it in Jesus's name does not mean it is actually approved by Jesus himself

That is true, obviously you can't commit **** in the name of the Lord, but this also doesn't mean that anything that isn't explicitly mentioned in the Bible is sin. Please explain to me how Jesus disapproves of Christian metal?

I put this pic up specially for people like you, with all due respect. The partial pentagram is the symbol off an album from the Christian metal band Oh Sleeper. The image signifies the 'horns' torn of off evil i.e. defeat of evil

Check out the lyrics for a metal band by the name of For Today. If you claim they are disapproved of by God, then something is seriously wrong...

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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2011, 07:30:01 am »

Thanks for the welcome Dok.

I'm afraid that Psalm 98:4 does not sum anything up. Please explain how it does?

  Cheesy Because its not a joyfull noise.  Cheesy

That is true, obviously you can't commit **** in the name of the Lord, but this also doesn't mean that anything that isn't explicitly mentioned in the Bible is sin. Please explain to me how Jesus disapproves of Christian metal?

1 Thess 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

The Bible says to stay away from all "apperances" of evil. Well just what do you think these metal bands are basing their sound and out look on? Pink Floyd? no... more like Black Sabbath? Yes....


I put this pic up specially for people like you, with all due respect. The partial pentagram is the symbol off an album from the Christian metal band Oh Sleeper. The image signifies the 'horns' torn of off evil i.e. defeat of evil

Your kidding right? I mean seriously you have to be kidding me. Thats like putting the triquetra on the cover of a Bible and calling it good. Again, we are to Abstain from all appearance of evil not revel in it and call it good.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Check out the lyrics for a metal band by the name of For Today. If you claim they are disapproved of by God, then something is seriously wrong...

I could check out some of the Catechisms of the Cayholic church, or some of the writings of Muhammad or Joeseph Smith, still doesnt make it of Jesus.

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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2011, 07:34:23 am »

You should really listen to the teachings i posted earlier. Scott does a good examining these so called christian bands. The whole thing starts here at Scott's site. http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=3104

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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2011, 07:40:38 am »

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Because its not a joyfull noise

Perhaps to you yes. To me, it is a joyful noise. I believe God loves all forms of music. I could also say that jazz is not a joyful noise, and thus God does not approve of it

Quote
1 Thess 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

The Bible says to stay away from all "apperances" of evil. Well just what do you think these metal bands are basing their sound and out look on? Pink Floyd? no... more like Black Sabbath? Yes....

And who defines what an appearance of evil looks like? Black Sabbath? Have you ever even listened to Black Sabbath? Assumptions mean nothing to me man. In all things you will find forms of evil, that does not mean you cannot turn it around for the glory of God.

Quote
Your kidding right? I mean seriously you have to be kidding me. Thats like putting the triquetra on the cover of a Bible and calling it good. Again, we are to Abstain from all appearance of evil not revel in it and call it good.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

That comparison makes no sense to me, sorry. p.s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triquetra#Christian_use

Quote
I could check out some of the Catechisms of the Cayholic church, or some of the writings of Muhammad or Joeseph Smith, still doesnt make it of Jesus.

Then you judge before you investigate.
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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2011, 07:56:47 am »

Perhaps to you yes. To me, it is a joyful noise. I believe God loves all forms of music. I could also say that jazz is not a joyful noise, and thus God does not approve of it

No not really sorry.
Isaiah 25:5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

There really is music that he does nto like.

And who defines what an appearance of evil looks like? Black Sabbath? Have you ever even listened to Black Sabbath? Assumptions mean nothing to me man. In all things you will find forms of evil, that does not mean you cannot turn it around for the glory of God.

Oh, i know all about Black Sabbath. Im not exactly young and sure wasnt raised a Christian. Im well aquanted with all the workings of Satan.

That comparison makes no sense to me, sorry. p.s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triquetra#Christian_use

Well maybe you should start a study on it then and learn just where these symbols and charms come from that you use so casually. The Trquetra is in no way a Christian symbol, as for starters God forbids them in Exo 20, and the symbol is pagan predating Jesus advant. 

Then you judge before you investigate.

Not at all, as i have read all those writings that i mentioned.  Smiley

It seems to me that you are now trying to just justify your beliefs and are looking for approval for it. You should be asking Jesus that question through prayer through the Holy Spirit.  Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2011, 08:22:32 am »

Quote
Isaiah 25:5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

There really is music that he does not like.

And how do you know that this verse is referring to metal? Why does it refer to metal? How does it even explicitly refer to music?

Quote
Not at all, as i have read all those writings that i mentioned.

Then please, if anything, explain to me how you come to the conclusion that all metal is ungodly. Even though metal bands have lead thousands of people to Christ

Quote
It seems to me that you are now trying to just justify your beliefs and are looking for approval for it. You should be asking Jesus that question through prayer through the Holy Spirit.

It seems to me that you quote scriptures out of context, and are intolerant to things you don't understand. You don't have to like it, but calling it 'from Satan' is a slap in the face of these people. And me. These people go out into the places you would probably never set foot, to share the Word of the Lord
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« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2011, 08:57:39 am »

And how do you know that this verse is referring to metal? Why does it refer to metal? How does it even explicitly refer to music?

Because it is talking about the music of the starnger, ie the pagan peoples. And that is where modern Rock/Metal comes from. You dont have to like it but it is a fact. Do you even know where modern musci comes from? Because its not modern, been around a loooong time.

Then please, if anything, explain to me how you come to the conclusion that all metal is ungodly. Even though metal bands have lead thousands of people to Christ

Your kidding right? Thats like saying Benny Hinn has led people to Jesus at his Million person crusades.  Cheesy Again listen to Scotts teaching on this, it will open your eyes to what you are being blinded to.

It seems to me that you quote scriptures out of context, and are intolerant to things you don't understand. You don't have to like it, but calling it 'from Satan' is a slap in the face of these people. And me. These people go out into the places you would probably never set foot, to share the Word of the Lord

Not at all, i use them in the correct context as led by the spirit. Tolerant? Yes i am intollerant as i will not change Gods word to fit my personal belief. We are called to be intollerant and to not be like others. You dont know me or what i have done or places i have been. That statement just makes you look desperate. Roll Eyes 

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2011, 09:05:05 am »

Speaking of Tolerance...

The New Tolerance
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,1350.0.html
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« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2011, 09:08:19 am »

So basically, rock/metal is strange to you, so it must be from satan.

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Your kidding right? Thats like saying Benny Hinn has led people to Jesus at his Million person crusades.  Cheesy Again listen to Scotts teaching on this, it will open your eyes to what you are being blinded to.

You like doing comparisons, but you avoid my questions.

Its transcends my understanding that you can call music good or evil regardless of the lyrics. A musical genre cannot be evil. Are knives evil? Is fire evil? Is worship evil? No, they are neutral. How you use them determine  their impact, for good or for the better.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that people have their own ways. And I in no way question your relationship with Jesus, or your biblical knowledge, nor your past experiences. This is however a very personal topic to me, I feel very strongly about it.
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« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2011, 09:23:27 am »

So basically, rock/metal is strange to you, so it must be from satan.

You like doing comparisons, but you avoid my questions.

Its transcends my understanding that you can call music good or evil regardless of the lyrics. A musical genre cannot be evil. Are knives evil? Is fire evil? Is worship evil? No, they are neutral. How you use them determine  their impact, for good or for the better.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that people have their own ways. And I in no way question your relationship with Jesus, or your biblical knowledge, nor your past experiences. This is however a very personal topic to me, I feel very strongly about it.

What good id the lyrics when the music that goes with it is corrupt. Come on, would you drink a cup of water if i added just a couple drops of antifreeze to it? The same analogy applies. And it is a personal thing. Hey I'm a huge Pink Floyd fan. I used to listen to Metalica before they sold out. I understand the music. What i don not understand is the way it has pervaided into the Christian Culture. It is just another eroding of Biblical Beliefs. This kind of music is shunned upon in other countries by Christians, especially in Africa. But not here in America where we have to be "tolerant" of everyone and everything.

Music is very culturally controlling, and the culture will tend to follow the path of the music. Christianity has already embraced this kind of music and look at where some of it stands now. Goth Christians? Really? groups of kids that extole death, thinking its ok? Hanging out in cemeteries and all kinds of other stuff. And that is just one aspect of allowing this in.

Sorry but look at your self. You are using a pentagram and trying to justify its use and existence. When Jesus himself said to NOT DO THAT!. Are you saying you know better than Jesus? You must as you are trying to justify using stuff he said not to.

Jesus told Israel not to intermarry with any of the pagan peoples, as they will bring in their beliefs and other gods with them. Israel did not listen at all, and look at how that turned out for them. Even Soloman, Davids own son chosen to build the Temple, was led astray by his wives and their customs. And he is now in hell for it. It doesn't take much to lead one astray and to bring in pagan beliefs....
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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2011, 11:44:11 am »

But what makes the music corrupt? If I play a heavily distorted guitar riff is it evil? If I play a blast beat is that evil? Maybe when I combine the two, does it become more evil and corrupt? How does it erode Biblical beliefs? By the way, I live in Africa...

Goth Christians is a different debate, but what does that have to do with music? The goth culture is not tied to a genre of music.

I can't see how metal is 'pagan'.... How much more 'pagan' is metal than, say, rap? How about rock? Jazz? Classical? Folk music probably has way way more true pagan influences than metal. So like, is light worship songs and hymns the only music acceptable to God?

And I'm using a broken pentagram. Not a pentagram. Signifying the defeat of evil. By your arguments, we are never to depict images of satan, images of demons, any evil, no sin, not even to get a point across.
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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2011, 12:56:05 pm »

But what makes the music corrupt? If I play a heavily distorted guitar riff is it evil? If I play a blast beat is that evil? Maybe when I combine the two, does it become more evil and corrupt? How does it erode Biblical beliefs? By the way, I live in Africa...

Why not pray about it and let the Spirit guide you? Your obiosly not going to believe anything i say. Like im lyin gor something.  Roll Eyes

Goth Christians is a different debate, but what does that have to do with music? The goth culture is not tied to a genre of music.

Not really, just how do you think they got that way? Through their music. I was a big time fan of Goth music. Loved it, its music that sets the culture, not the other way around.

I can't see how metal is 'pagan'.... How much more 'pagan' is metal than, say, rap? How about rock? Jazz? Classical? Folk music probably has way way more true pagan influences than metal. So like, is light worship songs and hymns the only music acceptable to God?

Where did metal music come from? Trace its origins than get back to me. Here is a good start. http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1197

And I'm using a broken pentagram. Not a pentagram. Signifying the defeat of evil. By your arguments, we are never to depict images of satan, images of demons, any evil, no sin, not even to get a point across.

Call it what you will, it is still a pentagram and you are using it.

Quote
By your arguments

Do you read your Bible or just use it as a crutch to get listeners like POD? or any other so called Christian music group? Its not my argument. I didnt write the Bible. How about taking that one up with the guy that did?

How about some links to your band so we can all make an informed decision?
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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2011, 01:06:18 pm »

I'll go ahead and throw in my 2 cents - Christian Rock/Contemporary Christian music didn't even exist 100 years ago, let alone during the Vietnam War era. If they were heard in the churches then, they would have been tossed out almost immediately. And somehow now it's accepted??

It's no different from denominations ordaining gay clergy, Rick Warren and the Emergents having all these "leadership" conferences for the first time, etc...they were condemned in the church for decades upon centuries, and now they're accepted??

Look, I'm not trying to call you out or anything - just saying that the bible clearly says stay with the OLD paths. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
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« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2011, 02:24:04 pm »

Dok, the Spirit does guide me. I'm not perfect though. And it's not like I think you're lying or something, you have different convictions to me. Metal may be wrong for you, but it's right for me and many others, and it does not contradict the Word of the Lord.

So why not let a positive form of metal swing the culture in favor of God? I've seen it happen.

I'll take you up on that and attempt to trace it's origins, but that alone cannot discredit it. If we cut out everything from our lives which had an ungodly beginning, where would we be? Riding donkeys?

Do you actually think that bands claim to be Christian to get more listeners? Because that would be laughable. To a 'metalhead', there can be no bigger turn-off than a Christian metal band.

Hi BornAgain2: It may be a recent establishment, but how does that make it wrong? Human culture evolves... yet that obviously does not mean God and His Word evolves. What's wrong with Rick Warren? Just because the church condemned it, does that necesarily mean God condemns it?

Could you please point me to the Bible reference about sticking to the old paths? Jesus is definetely the same yes, but why not find different, more creative ways to worship Him? Do you follow the Word word for word, exactly as its stands written?
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« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2011, 03:49:06 pm »

Hi BornAgain2: It may be a recent establishment, but how does that make it wrong? Human culture evolves... yet that obviously does not mean God and His Word evolves. What's wrong with Rick Warren? Just because the church condemned it, does that necesarily mean God condemns it?

Could you please point me to the Bible reference about sticking to the old paths? Jesus is definetely the same yes, but why not find different, more creative ways to worship Him? Do you follow the Word word for word, exactly as its stands written?

FYI - Warren is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, which is working to tear down the soverienty of America and bring in global government. The whole North American Union with the new currency Amero is being pushed by the CFR, and Congress has been working them in secret to do so. The CFR has been pushing these poisoned flu shots as well(they were literally laughing about it in an ad they made 2 years ago).

Warren has also been pushing for UNITY between Christians and Muslims(and other religious faiths in this world). Supposedly, he wants to do so to fight all the "global giants" in this world. Big problem is that he's EXCLUDING Jesus Christ and giving him all the glory in his P.E.A.C.E. plan. Another big red flag is that he's working with people like Bono and Kenneth Blanchard(both New Agers) in his P.E.A.C.E. plan.

Jer 6:16  Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

2Ti 1:13  Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

And yes, churches that have yoked up with Warren's PDL have been leavened - they're doing things like rock music instead of traditional praise hymns, no longer calling business meetings(showing financial statements et al), showing movies during the sermon hour, relabeling Sun School to more PC terms like Happy Fellowship Hour/LIFE Groups, using secular psychology materials from Carl Jung et al instead of their bibles during Sun School hours, reprimanding "resisters" aka those who don't want to follow the PDL plan(a couple of reports had pastors putting the elderly Sun School classes in uncomfortable rooms b/c they did just that - sounds pure evil, doesn't it?), pastors no longer having pulpits at the front and their dress is becoming more casual, etc. And Warren's Saddleback ministry is actually profiting million$ from this(ie-charging these churches to access his web site and encouraging them to download his sermons, charging them for movies sent to them, etc).

Judgement starts at the house of the Lord, doesn't it? God is not a respecter of persons - he didn't give Solomon(who at one time was the most wisest man in the bible) a free pass, did he?

Is Your Church Going Purpose Driven?
How Can You tell?

In the past ten years a large percentage of churches in America, and in other countries have changed from a traditional New Testament church model to a contemporary Purpose Driven model, many with sorrowful results.
 
Contrary to Purpose Driven Church propaganda, millions have been leaving their churches after the change occurred. It is important that every church member know if their church is targeted for a Purpose Driven Church takeover.  Initially, a small clique of church staff, possibly including the pastor or a new pastor, plans the change without telling the rest of the church membership.
 
Church Transitions, an associate of Saddleback Church in California, trains the clique initiating the change in eight published steps. The church membership is not to be informed of the transition until the fourth step. After the sixth step in the process of change, if there are some in the church who voice concerns, the following is suggested:
 
1.  Identify those who are resisting the changes;
2.  Assess the effectiveness of their opposition;
3.  Befriend those who are undecided about the changes;
4.  Marginalize more persistent resisters;
5.  Vilify those who stay and fight; and
6.  Establish new rules that will silence all resistance.
 
This means the church membership is not told until it is too late to make a difference. In other words, the church is stolen. Then the members either accept the changes, or leave the church, which they may have served and given to build.
 
Dr. Rick Warren, author of "The Purpose Driven Church" and "The Purpose Driven Life" has boasted: "When you reveal the vision to the church, the old pillars are going to leave. But let them leave... they only hold things up."
 
Dr. Warren is right in one way. It is the senior members of the church who do indeed hold a church up and keep it from falling into apostasy. While some PDC initiators may not implement the full PDC format, generally, these are the signs that your church is targeted for a Purpose Driven Church format:
 
1. Change in music to a contemporary rock style.
2. Removal of hymn books; eliminating the choir.
3. Replacement of organ and piano with heavy metal instruments.
4. Repetitive singing of praise lyrics.
5. Dressing down to casual and informal attire.
6. Eliminating of business meetings, church committees, council of elders, board of deacons, etc.
7. The pastor, or a new leader with a few assistants, usually four, takes charge of all church business.
8. A repetitive 40-day Purpose Driven Church study program stressing psychological relationships with each other, the community, or the
     world, begins.
9. Funded budgeted programs are abandoned, or ignored, with ambiguous financial reports made.
10. Sunday morning, evening, and/or Wednesday prayer meetings are changed to other times; some may even be eliminated.
11. Sunday School teachers are moved to different classes, or replaced by new teachers more sympathetic with the changes being
       implemented.
12. The name "Sunday School" is dropped and classes are given new names.
13. Crosses and other traditional Christian symbols may be moved from both the inside and outside of the church buildings. The pulpit
       may also be removed.
14. In accordance with Dr. Warren’s instructions, new version Bibles are used; or only verses flashed on a screen are referenced during
       regular services.
15. Purpose Driven Church films, purchased from Saddleback, precede or are used during regular services.
16. The decor, including the carpets, may be changed to eliminate any resemblance to the former church.
17. The word "church" is often taken from the name of the church, and the church may be called a "campus". Denominational names
       may also be removed.
18. An emphasis on more fun and party sessions for the youth.
19. Elimination of altar calls or salvation invitations at the close of the services.
20. The elimination of such words as "unsaved", "lost", "sin", "Hell", "Heaven" and other Gospel verities from the pastor’s messages.
21. The reclassification of the saved and lost to the "churched" and the "unchurched".
22. The marginalizing, or ostracizing, of all who are not avid promoters of the new Purpose Driven Program.
23. Closed meetings between the pastor or chosen staff members without any reports made to the general membership.
24. Open hostility to members who do not openly embrace the new program, or who may have left for another church.
 
What You Can Do
If your church is in the initial stages of change (music or the first 40-day program), your church could be saved by talking with other church members, and with activist intervention by 10-20 percent of the membership. If nothing is done at this early stage, then by the time the program advances to step four, there is little that can be done except look for another church. Your church has been stolen and become a Purpose Driven entity in association with Saddleback Church of Orange County or Willow Creek of Chicago.
 
You must educate yourself, and others, so that you can mobilize the membership to effectively resist. "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind" 2 Timothy 1:7.
 
The Purpose Driven Church books and most of the programs are published by Rupert Murdoch, who owns 175 newspapers worldwide, and a large percentage of the television and communications industry. He also owns several magazines, some of which have been classified as ****ographic.
 
Billions of dollars pour into the Purpose Driven Church movement. Dr. Warren has stated he intends to send one billion Christians into the world to bring in the "Kingdom of Heaven". The entire movement appears cultish.
 
Don’t be fooled by the Saddleback Website. You don’t catch many fish unless you have a look-alike bait!
 
Copied from printed pamphlet from:  Southwest Radio Church Ministries, Box 100, Bethany, Oklahoma 73008, 1-800-652-1144, www.swrc.com  25 for $10 — 100 for $20
 
For more-in-depth information: "The Dark Side of the Purpose Driven Church", by N.W. Hutchings — 1 copy for your gift of $15.

http://www.swrc.com/bookstore/books/noah/dark.html



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« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2011, 01:16:14 am »

Thanks BornAgain2, I don't live in America, so I don't see or understand what is happening with congress etc.

I'm finding it really interesting that our mindsets are so different.... especially where music is concerned. I don't see why it is wrong to move into a new way of doing things. I mean come on, "Dressing down to casual and informal attire.", how does that even affect a genuine walk with the Lord?

I praise God with songs from bands such as Jesus Culture, Hillsong United, Planetshakers etc.... are these bands then living in sin?
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« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2011, 05:28:37 am »

Thanks BornAgain2, I don't live in America, so I don't see or understand what is happening with congress etc.

I'm finding it really interesting that our mindsets are so different.... especially where music is concerned. I don't see why it is wrong to move into a new way of doing things. I mean come on, "Dressing down to casual and informal attire.", how does that even affect a genuine walk with the Lord?

I praise God with songs from bands such as Jesus Culture, Hillsong United, Planetshakers etc.... are these bands then living in sin?

While we have liberty, and "all things are lawful", not all things are edifying or expedient. Thta's is I think where your missing the point.

It is pride that is moving you to stand your ground oin this topic. Your demanding your right to a certain thing, when you actually should humble yourself and sacrifice whatever it takes to be closer to Jesus and walking in the Spirit.

Jesus says that if you cannot forsake ALL that you have, you cannot be a disciple. That means everything, including music, whatever style it may be.

The other point your misssing is that it is the Spirit that teaches man, and opens his eyes to the truth, not man-made music or sermons. We just plant and water, but God gives the increase. So when you insist that you use a certain thing to bring people closer to God, that is an act of works, and not faith. Your trusting in the music style to convey the gospel, when it is the Holy Ghost  that gives the increase.

We are to walk in the Spirit, right? Well, I believe when scripture says to "make a joyful noise", it is talking about spiritually, and to me, that noise spiritually is the Word of God, so it's saying to "preach the Word", which is making a joyful noise.

Besides, scripture clearly says that we are to not be conformed to this world but be transformed...

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Romans 12:2 (KJB)

We are to put off the old man...

20   But ye have not so learned Christ; 
21   If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 
22   That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 
23   And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 
24   And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Ephesians 4:20-24 (KJB)


Ultimately, we are to not put stumbling blocks in our brother's way...

"Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way." Romans 14:13 (KJB)
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« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2011, 05:41:42 am »

While we have liberty, and "all things are lawful", not all things are edifying or expedient. Thta's is I think where your missing the point.

It is pride that is moving you to stand your ground oin this topic. Your demanding your right to a certain thing, when you actually should humble yourself and sacrifice whatever it takes to be closer to Jesus and walking in the Spirit.

Jesus says that if you cannot forsake ALL that you have, you cannot be a disciple. That means everything, including music, whatever style it may be.

The other point your misssing is that it is the Spirit that teaches man, and opens his eyes to the truth, not man-made music or sermons. We just plant and water, but God gives the increase. So when you insist that you use a certain thing to bring people closer to God, that is an act of works, and not faith. Your trusting in the music style to convey the gospel, when it is the Holy Ghost  that gives the increase.

We are to walk in the Spirit, right? Well, I believe when scripture says to "make a joyful noise", it is talking about spiritually, and to me, that noise spiritually is the Word of God, so it's saying to "preach the Word", which is making a joyful noise.

Besides, scripture clearly says that we are to not be conformed to this world but be transformed...

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Romans 12:2 (KJB)

We are to put off the old man...

20   But ye have not so learned Christ; 
21   If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 
22   That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 
23   And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 
24   And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Ephesians 4:20-24 (KJB)


Ultimately, we are to not put stumbling blocks in our brother's way...

"Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way." Romans 14:13 (KJB)

Hi Kilika, thank you for your response.

You see, that actually seems to be the point you guys are missing. Yes, all things are lawful, but not all things are edifying or expedient - How do you determine what is edifying? To me, Christian music (whatever genre) is edifying. It builds me up, inspires me, even teaches me. Like sermons.

You say it's pride that is keeping me in this view, but you speak as if I'm demanding something which is wrong. It is not wrong, and that is what I believe. Why forsake something that is for the glory of God?

Quote
The other point your missing is that it is the Spirit that teaches man, and opens his eyes to the truth, not man-made music or sermons. We just plant and water, but God gives the increase. So when you insist that you use a certain thing to bring people closer to God, that is an act of works, and not faith. Your trusting in the music style to convey the gospel, when it is the Holy Ghost  that gives the increase.

In what way does what I'm saying contradict this? I didn't say that this is the only way to bring people closer to God, but it is a way. Neither does the Holy Spirit speak directly to an unsaved person to bring him to salvation, no, it uses a sermon, a word, a song to, as you say, plant the seeds.

I'm not trying to be rebellious to God, quite the opposite, but I'm not understanding why I should change my life etc just because you say I'm being proud and not sacrificing my will. It's like me telling a pastor to sacrifice his position as a teacher of the Word, in order to align with God's will, it just doesn't make sense to me.

I will ask again, are bands such as Jesus Culture, Hillsong United, Planetshakers etc, dabbling in sin?
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« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2011, 05:58:15 am »

Quote
I'm not trying to be rebellious to God, quite the opposite, but I'm not understanding why I should change my life etc just because you say I'm being proud and not sacrificing my will. It's like me telling a pastor to sacrifice his position as a teacher of the Word, in order to align with God's will, it just doesn't make sense to me.

And that reply is exactly why I said your missing the point; pride in insisting on doing things that are of the world. You should change the way you do things because we become a new creature when born-again. Did you not read those verse I posted? Your insisting on doing "old man" things.

Worship in private as the Spirit moves you, but we must consider others, particularly the weak, when in public...(this is what I mean by humbling yourself)

"[It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." Romans 14:21 (KJB)

Quote
I didn't say that this is the only way to bring people closer to God, but it is a way

Nor did I say that is what your saying!  Roll Eyes But you saying "it is a way" is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not a way! Jesus is the way, literally dwelling within a believer is the only way. What your referring to is using music to minister to people, thinking it's "a way" to bring people to Christ. That is a "works" doctrine born out of churchianity, and not faith.

By thinking it's "a way", your thinking that you can affect people, when as I pointed out, it is the Spirit that does the work, not you and your efforts through music.

And to answer your question about those bands? Haven't got a clue who they are, nor do I know what they do, so I have no commment. Dabbling in sin? I'm not able to make that judgement, and I'm not interested in their music either.

"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another." Romans 14:19 (KJB)
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« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2011, 06:01:26 am »

What i just thought is, are there any occurances of music in the King James Bible drawing anyone to God? or to live a godly life? How does the Holy Spirit work through rock music? The Holy Spirit helps a person who reads the King James Bible.

Quote
I will ask again, are bands such as Jesus Culture, Hillsong United, Planetshakers etc, dabbling in sin?

Well one would have to do a study on each band to determine that.
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« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2011, 06:11:45 am »

Quote
You should change the way you do things because we become a new creature when born-again.

This doesn't make sense to me. What should I change? How far does this statement reach? Should I also change the method in which I brush my teeth? I changed from listening to Satan worship, foul mouthed, obscene music, to what I now attempt to describe. That is a new creation, a new mindset.

Quote
Nor did I say that is what your saying!  But you saying "it is a way" is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not a way! Jesus is the way, literally dwelling within a believer is the only way. What your referring to is using music to minister to people, thinking it's "a way" to bring people to Christ. That is a "works" doctrine born out of churchianity, and not faith.

By thinking it's "a way", your thinking that you can affect people, when as I pointed out, it is the Spirit that does the work, not you and your efforts through music.

I'm sorry, I think you misunderstand me. I don't mean 'its a way' in that it in itself brings people to Christ. I wholeheartedly agree that no works can bring salvation. When I say it's a way, I mean its a different way to worship God, a different way to minister to people, just as you read an inspirational message or sermon, or, hymn. Nothing I 'do' can bring my or anyone else salvation. But the Bible says that people should worship in spirit and in truth, and that is what I'm talking about.

What music do you actually listen to?

Those bands are full-on spirit-led worship bands.
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« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2011, 06:17:28 am »

Quote
We are to put off the old man...

20   But ye have not so learned Christ;
21   If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22   That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23   And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24   And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Ephesians 4:20-24 (KJB)

'the old man' is a very broad description. Must I give up and shun EVERYTHING that I used to do as an unsaved? Driving, cooking, reading etc, I'm sure you get my point. This verse talks about the renewing of the mind and casting off sinful practices, not just old practices in general
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« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2011, 06:29:29 am »

Seeing you ask, I don't generally listen to music. While I'm not perfect, even though I am perfected in Christ, I look to be unspotted from the world. The only music I feel is edifying is music without lyrics, or put to scripture only. Anything in man's own words I don't care to hear. I want the Word of God, not some summation or version of the Word.

And that said, it is very telling that out of ALL of your posts in this thread, not once have you shared the Word. Not a single quote of scripture to edify and back up what you claim. While you have made references, it is the Word that is missing from your argument.

I can assure you, after over 20 years in the Word, I'm not misunderstanding you! I've heard this argument before, and it still holds no water or validity.

Drop the leather and metal studs and try sharing the Word of God with people. Looking and acting like those in the world is actually spiritual adultry and double-minded, and is a stumbling block for the ignorant and weak in the faith.

The truth is that there is a more edifying way than what your doing.

I have no doubt those bands are spirit-filled! The question though is what spirit?

I'll post this verse again, and maybe you can tell me how it doesn't fit your situation...(what part do you not understand when it says "not conformed to this world"?)

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Romans 12:2 (KJB)
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