Why can't I worship Devil Bands?

[Kilika]

Must I give up and shun EVERYTHING that I used to do as an unsaved?

Yes, actually!

25   And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 
26   If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 
27   And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 
28   For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]? 
29   Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him, 
30   Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 
31   Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 
32   Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 
33   So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. 
Luke 14:25-33 (KJB)

[adorerofblood]

Seeing you ask, I don't generally listen to music. While I'm not perfect, even though I am perfected in Christ, I look to be unspotted from the world. The only music I feel is edifying is music without lyrics, or put to scripture only. Anything in man's own words I don't care to hear. I want the Word of God, not some summation or version of the Word.

Thank you. That is a very good explanation as to where you stand on music, and I commend you for that.

And that said, it is very telling that out of ALL of your posts in this thread, not once have you shared the Word. Not a single quote of scripture to edify and back up what you claim. While you have made references, it is the Word that is missing from your argument.

And on the other end, all you guys have done is give me scripture that is vaguely related to the subject! The fact is that the Bible does not speak specifically about rock music... Your argument is from a point assuming the rock music is inherently evil, no scripture deals with that, the subject is too specific. If you question my validity as a Christian, that's fine with me, I know who I am in Christ.

For example:

I'll post this verse again, and maybe you can tell me how it doesn't fit your situation...(what part do you not understand when it says "not conformed to this world"?)

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Romans 12:2 (KJB)

Okay, let's see, I'm going to try not to do anything that has ties with the world.... Where will that get me? Perhaps living alone in a shack on a mountain yes. You are using the internet. Why are you conforming to the world?

Actually you know what, I'm just going to stop here. I don't see a point to this anymore and I don't want things to get nasty.

It seems as if this is more an issue of scriptural interpretation than personal convictions.

Thanks for your time and answers. Have a good day.

[Psalm 51:17]

And on the other end, all you guys have done is give me scripture that is vaguely related to the subject! The fact is that the Bible does not speak specifically about rock music... Your argument is from a point assuming the rock music is inherently evil, no scripture deals with that, the subject is too specific. If you question my validity as a Christian, that's fine with me, I know who I am in Christ.

FWIW, the bible doesn't specifically speak about steroid use and gambling as well. Does it mean they're right?

[adorerofblood]

FWIW, the bible doesn't specifically speak about steroid use and gambling as well. Does it mean they're right?

Neither does it prove anything

[Kilika]

Okay, let's see, I'm going to try not to do anything that has ties with the world.... Where will that get me? Perhaps living alone in a shack on a mountain yes. You are using the internet. Why are you conforming to the world?

Excellent question! There is a difference in "conforming" and what scripture says...

29   But this I say, brethren, the time [is] short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; 
30   And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; 
31   And they that use this world, as not abusing [it]: for the fashion of this world passeth away. 
1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (KJB)

You would know that if you had been working with your hands that thing which is good! Remember you agreed to my reference of the verse that says "all things are lawful", but not expedient.

What you are not seeing is that there is a "more excellent way".

"Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth." Ephesians 4:28 (KJB)

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJB)

Jesus says, "Feed my sheep".

Making "full proof" of your ministry, you are to be sound in the faith...

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." 2 Timothy 4:2 (KJB)

So, by your comment about what we post, I surmise that maybe you might want to spend some more time in the Word of God than playing music. It's all about what is edifying to you and those around you. If you don't do the work of searching the scriptures, and thus knowing them, how then can you take care of the house of God if your not taking care of your own house?

"(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" 1 Timothy 3:5 (KJB)

16   All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 
17   That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 
2 Timothy 3:16,17 (KJB)

[Believer]

Just saying.

2 Chronicles 5
King James Version (KJV)

 1Thus all the work that Solomon made for the house of the LORD was finished: and Solomon brought in all the things that David his father had dedicated; and the silver, and the gold, and all the instruments, put he among the treasures of the house of God.

 2Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of the city of David, which is Zion.

 3Wherefore all the men of Israel assembled themselves unto the king in the feast which was in the seventh month.

 4And all the elders of Israel came; and the Levites took up the ark.

 5And they brought up the ark, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and all the holy vessels that were in the tabernacle, these did the priests and the Levites bring up.

 6Also king Solomon, and all the congregation of Israel that were assembled unto him before the ark, sacrificed sheep and oxen, which could not be told nor numbered for multitude.

 7And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, to the oracle of the house, into the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubims:

 8For the cherubims spread forth their wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above.

 9And they drew out the staves of the ark, that the ends of the staves were seen from the ark before the oracle; but they were not seen without. And there it is unto this day.

 10There was nothing in the ark save the two tables which Moses put therein at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of Egypt.

 11And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place: (for all the priests that were present were sanctified, and did not then wait by course:

 12Also the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets:)

 13It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

 14So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

[adorerofblood]

Kilika,

I understand your reference to 1 Corinthians 7:29-31, but what I don't understand is your application thereof, i.e. choosing what is regarded as 'of this world' and what is not.

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks" John 4:23 (NIV)

The Bible tells me that what God is looking for is a true worshiper - He looks at the heart, not at the appearance. If a person's heart is right - what does it matter how the worship is conducted? Obviously there are extremes, and other scripture to take into account, which cancel certain things we might want to do out. For example, even though your heart may be right, that won't mean it's ok to worship God by going out drinking and gambling.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will Romans 12:1-2 (NIV)

The Bible also tells me that I need to offer my body (my whole life) as a sacrifice to God - as an act of worship. I have sacrificed my sinful nature when comes to music. My music absolutely does not conform to the pattern of this world. Wordly music persists in harping on about the negative things in life, it indulges things considered sinful, it routinely makes a mockery of God, and it often worships other 'gods' directly and unashamedly. When I became a Christian, I struggled at first to let go of this music, but I knew it was wrong. So I made a decision to cut out all ungodly (secular) music from my life. It was a daunting decision, because music is a big part of my life, but I did it anyway, not even knowing that there were so many spirit-filled bands out there. Over time, I 'discovered' a wealth of these bands. Bands that are shunned, disrespected, and looked down on by the world, because of their faith. That sounds to me like a bunch of people not conforming to this world.

So, by your comment about what we post, I surmise that maybe you might want to spend some more time in the Word of God than playing music. It's all about what is edifying to you and those around you. If you don't do the work of searching the scriptures, and thus knowing them, how then can you take care of the house of God if your not taking care of your own house?

I absolutely agree with you that I should spend more time in the Word than playing music. In fact, I need to spend more time in the Word, period.  The thing is, this is edifying to me and those around me. Remember, I'm not coming from the view that Christian metal music has to be shoved in everyone's face, everyone needs to approve of it, and that we should start using it in church. I'm merely opposed to the original postings that "there is no such thing as a Christian metal band", "This kind of stuff is of Satan", and "they sound demonic".

Worship isn't just about singing songs to God. It's about a lifestyle of sacrifice and obedience (Romans 12:1-2 again)

1 Sing joyfully to the LORD, you righteous;
   it is fitting for the upright to praise him.
2 Praise the LORD with the harp;
   make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre.
3 Sing to him a new song;
   play skillfully, and shout for joy Psalm 33:1-3 (NIV)

To me, and many others, this music is joyful! I don't believe that this scripture is commanding us to restrict our songs to God to only harps and ten-stringed lyre's. I love writing new songs. I love playing skillfully (or trying ), and I love shouting for joy.

Believer,

The verses you highlighted does not tell me that I should restrict my music/instruments to just those, it merely mentions them. Although, that was probably a requirement for the temple itself. As were Levites as the singers (if I'm not mistaken).

At the end of the day, from reading most of the scripture quoted in this discussion, this seems to come down to one question:
By playing and listening to rock music (or any other genre for that matter), are Christians conforming to the world?

Maybe. That depends on your heart.

[Kilika]

I understand your reference to 1 Corinthians 7:29-31, but what I don't understand is your application thereof, i.e. choosing what is regarded as 'of this world' and what is not.

Nothing personal, but I'm not convinced you do understand that verse. The reason I posted it was in reply to your question about me using the internet, which obviously is "of the world". But then so are automobiles. The point is that we do use various things of the world, but that doesn't mean we worship it or we are of the world. It's about what is edifying and expedient while we are here.

God knows the heart of man, so salvation is not what we judge, but the fruit of the believer, THAT is what we make a righteous judgement on.

Consider that people can see a "metal" band, without hearing any lyrics, and they will immediately equate that band with the heavy metal scene and all it's devil-worshipping garbage. How edifying is that?

Even Satan knows how man looks on the outward appearence, and takes advantage of it by getting people to disply certain fruits that are not edifying. This is why they have the phrase in the world "Image is everything". They know what a person projects is the impression people will get of a person, based on their "fruit" that people observe.

I don't know of anybody that looks at a heavy metal band and thinks Jesus!

That said, I now see where there is a big problem; your using the NIV book! No wonder your messed up in your understandings! That's a perfect example why we should be quoting the bible to back our understandings, because it shows where we get the idea of what we believe. It's our evidence and defense. BUT, that defense must be sound biblically, and the NIV is FAR from sound. In fact, the NIV is downright evil.

Did you know that it is published by Rupert Murdoch? Did you also know that it also trys to hide the sin of homosexuality by changing verses and outright eliminating some verses? You'd be well-advised to reconsider that book!

There is a thread on which bible to use, so I won't get into that discussion, but will say till you start using a real bible, you're going to have problems with sound doctrine. And from this discussion, it's obvious that it has already clouded your understanding of what sound doctrine is.

I'm merely opposed to the original postings that "there is no such thing as a Christian metal band", "This kind of stuff is of Satan", and "they sound demonic".

Well, quite frankly, there really is NO SUCH THING as Christian metal, period. What is being done is self-professed Christians are trying to mold a worldly satanic thing into something that it is not.

Whether you will admit it or not, metal, and some other forms of music, have no relation to Christianity at all, as they are pagan in origin, and metal in particular was born out of the pagan/devil worship scene.

What people in the end are doing is trying to keep the ways of the "old man" because they don't want to let go of the world they knew before they became born-again. Old habits die hard! It's no different than "churches" that have Halloween parties. Excuse me? How did a pagan observance suddenly become Christian? No matter what color you paint it, it's still observance of a pagan practice. There is no excuse; Christians are not to do what the world does. When we become born-again, we do things differently, and stop doing the things we did when we were lost in the world.

For example, a Christian can dress up in a red devil suit with pitchfork, no big deal. Of itself it means nothing. It doesn't affect their salvation in the least and is not an indication of their heart, but is it edifying, or will it cause young believers to misunderstand? Yep, it sure does.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig!

Some Christians forget that we become "new creatures". "All things are become new".

[adorerofblood]

Thanks Kilika. I made my views clear in my last post so I have no more to say. Regarding the NIV, I knew you would have a problem with that. I'll check out the thread - do you have the link please?

[metaldrew]

Wow, I know this is an old thread, however I found it through google actually while looking up Texas in July. I can't believe there are so many ignorant people still out there. The fact that you think there are no good Christian Metal bands, and the fact that you think NIV is evil shows how little you know. No wonder so many people don't want to be a believer after seeing people who are so stick in their old ways that they cant get out...

[Psalm 51:17]

Wow, I know this is an old thread, however I found it through google actually while looking up Texas in July. I can't believe there are so many ignorant people still out there. The fact that you think there are no good Christian Metal bands, and the fact that you think NIV is evil shows how little you know. No wonder so many people don't want to be a believer after seeing people who are so stick in their old ways that they cant get out...

Yes, the NIV came from Zonderfan, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch. Murdoch's Zonderfan and his other media empires have published alot of filth like p0rn and g@y $ex. Murdoch also has funded alot of our wolves like Rick Warren and Brian McLaren(ie-Warren's books and other products are published by Zonderfan, and he's also a CFR member), whose Emergent Church has hijacked 1000s of churches across the world with New Age leaven.

As for Christian Metal bands - Christian Rock is largely funded by the Illuminati. Former insiders like John Todd have exposed this. Christian Rock groups and icons have also ties to the secular rock music world(ie-a few are connected with Marilyn Manson).

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump...

[Mark]

yep

[metaldrew]

Ok, first off, why does one person connected to the NIV, who didn't write it, and really has no part of the NIV make it wrong?? That makes no sense, and I like Rick Warren, and the Emergent church, both of which are definitely not New Age, but that's a whole different topic of conversation...

Can you please prove this to me about the Illuminati?? I need a link to an article or something. However, in all actuality it does not matter, the music itself does not make it wrong, are you to tell me that ya'll actually believe that music can make a song "evil"??

[Mark]

Here are some links that will answer all your questions.

SECULAR MUSIC UNMASKED
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,2975.0.html

End Time Current Events: Hidden Luciferians series
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,2181.0.html

You can search Rick Warren, just too much information on that Wolf.

How much info do you need on the NIV?

[Psalm 51:17]

Ok, first off, why does one person connected to the NIV, who didn't write it, and really has no part of the NIV make it wrong?? That makes no sense

2Jn 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

FYI, one of the translation team members is an open lesbian.

NIV - Homosexual on Translation Committee!
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/niv_sodomite_on_committee.htm

NIV Exposed!
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/niv_exposed.htm

and I like Rick Warren, and the Emergent church, both of which are definitely not New Age, but that's a whole different topic of conversation

FYI, Warren and other Emergent Church leaders like Brian McLaren and Bill Hybels have denied Jesus Christ being the only way, the true Son of God.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6T-gtUktwk&feature=related

Warren is also a proven liar.



Warren Smith used to be part of the New Age movement, FYI, and exposes Purpose Driven Life-

Can you please prove this to me about the Illuminati?? I need a link to an article or something. However, in all actuality it does not matter, the music itself does not make it wrong, are you to tell me that ya'll actually believe that music can make a song "evil"??

FYI, John Todd was a former insider - after he(and converted), he exposed the Illuminati's plans. One of their agendas was to get rock music infiltrated into our culture, and eventually into our churches. This should get you started...

[Psalm 51:17]

Look, the reason we are giving you all this info is b/c we love you people so much, that we want to tell you the truth.

Personally, it was over 2 years ago when someone on another message forum showed me the heresies in the NIV(one of them being Isaiah 14:12 that the KJV rightly calls out Lucifer as Satan, but in the NIV they replace Lucifer with the morning star - if you go to Rev 22:18, the morning star is identified with JESUS CHRIST). I was absolutely floored and horrified when I saw this, and almost immediately switched to the KJV.

Now cross-check your NIV to see how different it is from the KJV here-
Isa 14:12  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For now, both the links Dok and I gave you should give you a good start.

[metaldrew]

Here are some links that will answer all your questions.

SECULAR MUSIC UNMASKED
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,2975.0.html

End Time Current Events: Hidden Luciferians series
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,2181.0.html

You can search Rick Warren, just too much information on that Wolf.

How much info do you need on the NIV?

OH yes, the old contendingforturth, and Hell's Bell's. Hell's Bell's is cheesy, outdated, and filled with biased opinions. It almost entirely built around the lyrics of the songs which obviously is not the question here. So I ask again what makes the music itself wrong??

2Jn 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

FYI, one of the translation team members is an open lesbian.

NIV - Homosexual on Translation Committee!
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/niv_sodomite_on_committee.htm

NIV Exposed!
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/niv_exposed.htm

I would again respond by saying why does that make the translation less accurate?? The people don't matter it's the words, and if you look at it that way then you would realize that if anything the NIV is MORE accurate than the KJV. For example :

According to Dr Dale Robbins (Why So Many Bible Translations?):

“The KJV New Testament (and all editions since Tyndale) was compiled primarily from the Byzantine family of manuscripts (AD 500 – 1000) frequently referred to as the Textus Receptus. But many of the newer translations were produced using a composite of later discoveries of other manuscripts and fragments dating from an earlier period. Among such are The ‘Alexandrian Family’ manuscripts (AD 200 – 400) which include the three oldest The Codex Alexandrius, the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus, all which were major contributors to most Bible versions after the King James version.”
Which manuscripts (usually abbreviated to MSS) are the ‘right’ ones? Probably none of them because none are original. However, the Textus Receptus MSS does have some problems from a translator’s point of view according to Bible linguist Charles V Taylor (who wrote “Bibles With Holes?”, “The Oldest Science Book In The World”, “Did God Really?”, “The Creator Is Coming”, “Churches Aglow Down The Ages”, et al plus numerous articles). Dr Taylor points out that when dealing with Holy works (of any faith), copyists tend to add explanation rather than remove words. This is because the words are considered Holy and therefore must never be removed (cf Rev 22:19), though adding words of explanation was often considered acceptable.
“Words, phrases and concepts which meant one thing to a 17th Century reader often mean something totally different to a 20th Century reader.”
If you check most of the verses ‘missing’ from the NIV and other modern Bibles you will find, in nearly every case, they were an explanation of the previous verse – which makes those verses more likely to have been added by a copyist rather than deleted by a translator. This makes the ‘Alexandrian Family’ of manuscripts more likely to be closer to the original than the Textus Receptus (Byzantine Family) manuscripts, which is why they have been chosen by the later translators. So when someone tells me that the KJV has 790,704 words and the NIV has “only” 726,606 words then I feel even more confident in my choice of Bible translation.
But simply looking at the total number of words is meaningless because the language between the KJV and the NIV are so different – one is 17th Century English and the other is 20th Century English. Words, phrases and concepts which meant one thing to a 17th Century reader often mean something totally different to a 20th Century reader. What does “suffer little children to come unto me” mean to you? Do you want the children to only come to Jesus if they are in pain or suffering? Or maybe they come to Jesus so they will suffer? I don’t think so. The KJV says in Luke 18:16...

Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of God.
While the NIV says:
Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Which renders the verse ‘best’? At least the NIV makes sense to a modern reader!

and also:


But there are even more potential problems when an English translation of ancient Greek text has to be also rendered into a rhyming style, as was the KJV. This adds another barrier to accurate translation because the translator must translate into prose. What liberties must be taken with the original for this to be accomplished?

“I wonder if the Christians who used the Geneva Bible of 1560 complained loudly about the “heretical new KJV Bible” when it was first introduced?”
The problems with translations are compounded because, if the publisher of a modern translation wants his version to be accepted by people who have been reading an older version, he has to make it compatible with that version. What translation errors have there been since Tyndale’s Bible, faithfully reproduced so that existing readers are not alienated by an apparent change in doctrine. While the NIV had the KJV to work from, so the KJV had previous versions which it had to be compatible with. Going back to Dr Robbins:
“After Tyndale, several other famous Bibles were produced in the 16th century. The Cloverdale Bible in 1535, Matthew’s Bible in 1537, The Great Bible in 1539, The Geneva Bible in 1560 (the first to use chapters, verses, and the italicization of added words), and the Bishops Bible in 1568.”
In fact, some 80% of the KJV was copied from the Geneva Bible. It is clear, then, that the KJV really was ‘just another English translation’, excellent when it was written (specially considering the limited number of manuscripts available at that time) but still ‘just a translation’ – just like the NIV and other modern Bibles... I wonder if the Christians who used the Geneva Bible of 1560 complained loudly about the “heretical new KJV Bible” when it was first introduced?

and finally the part I think is most important:

So which version is right? As Christians, let us not get into dispute over this because I really don’t believe it is important. What is important are the core teachings in the Word, and these do not change between any of the major versions of the Bible (not counting the New World Translation, a Jehovah Witness version which is deliberately flawed to follow the teachings of that cult).

“With the recent publication of several different books villifying modern translations, asserting that they were borne out of conspiratorial motives, a word should be mentioned about this concocted theory.” (Daniel B. Wallace)
Finally, if you think that the NIV and other modern versions are somehow the work of Satan (or non-Christian humanists) then I urge you to read the Addendum to the excellent article Why I Do Not Think the King James Bible Is the Best Translation Available Today by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D (Professor of New Testament Studies, Dallas Theological Seminary).
This says (paragraph breaks added and emphasis mine):

“One further point is necessary. With the recent publication of several different books villifying modern translations, asserting that they were borne out of conspiratorial motives, a word should be mentioned about this concocted theory.
First, many of these books are written by people who have little or no knowledge of Greek or Hebrew, and are, further, a great distortion of the facts. I have read books on textual criticism for more than a quarter of a century, but never have I seen such illogic, out-of-context quotations, and downright deceptions about the situation as in these recent books.

Second, although it is often asserted that heretics produced some of the New Testament MSS we now have in our possession, there is only one group of MSS known to be produced by heretics: certain Byzantine MSS of the book of Revelation. This is significant because the Byzantine text stands behind the KJV! These MSS formed part of a mystery cult textbook used by various early cults. But KJV advocates constantly make the charge that the earliest MSS (the Alexandrian MSS) were produced by heretics. The sole basis they have for this charge is that certain readings in these MSS are disagreeable to them!

Third, when one examines the variations between the Greek text behind the KJV (the Textus Receptus) and the Greek text behind modern translations, it is discovered that the vast majority of variations are so trivial as to not even be translatable (the most common is the moveable nu, which is akin to the difference between ‘who’ and ‘whom’!).

Fourth, when one compares the number of variations that are found in the various MSS with the actual variations between the Textus Receptus and the best Greek witnesses, it is found that these two are remarkably similar. There are over 400,000 textual variants among NT MSS. But the differences between the Textus Receptus and texts based on the best Greek witnesses number about 5000 – and most of these are untranslatable differences! In other words, over 98% of the time, the Textus Receptus and the standard critical editions agree.

Those who villify the modern translations and the Greek texts behind them have evidently never really investigated the data. Their appeals are based largely on emotion, not evidence. As such, they do an injustice to historic Christianity as well as to the men who stood behind the King James Bible. These scholars, who admitted that their work was provisional and not final (as can be seen by their preface and by their more than 8000 marginal notes indicating alternate renderings), would wholeheartedly welcome the great finds in MSS that have occurred in the past one hundred and fifty years.”

The KJV, like other translations, is a superb document. However, it is not the only version and it is not necessarily the ‘best’ version. If it suits you, great, but it might not suit other people. If the doctrine stated in the more modern translations, including the NIV, is virtually identical to the doctrine in the KJV then what is the problem?
As Christians we should not get involved in petty disputes which do not honor the Father and do, in fact, honor Satan. Let us remember who the Enemy is, and it isn’t fellow Christians who might, or might not, have identical doctrine to you. God honors our hearts, not our doctrines!

May the peace of God, which passes all understanding, dwell in you and in your house forever.

So I truly believe that the NIV is a valid and worthy translation of the bible.



As for your links on Warren, well the first problem is that every single one of these videos has been edited to make it seem like he is saying something that he really isn't. Second, in the inauguration speech I read an article that said he was asked to include that and even though he was hesitant hew finally agreed, it wasn't something he wanted to do. And third, just like you think Rick Warren isn't trustworthy, I can't stand Warren Smith and his points have no validity with me...

As far as the John Todd stuff goes, the fact is he is spouting off stuff that no one can verify, it has a very conspiracy-theory feel to me. Do you really believe that ever record now goes through a process where someone takes it to a room and has not 1 but 13 witches pray and cast demons into it?? And also I don't believe anything Todd says since he believes that a believer can cast a spell on themselves, that is just ridiculous...

I appreciate what you are trying to do, however I think you are not doing it out of love a6t all, it comes across very judgmental and a I am right you are wrong mindset. As far as the verse you threw up there here is my response:

Lucifer is translated from the Hebrew word heh-lel which means the shining one or at that time king of Babylon Isa 14:13 the kings of Babylon reflected the attitude of Satan who wanted to be like god and wanted to be higher then god.

and

The term "morning star" comes from the idea that it is a star that is SO bright that it can still be seen in the morning (even with the sun's light coming out).

So that term could refer to anyone.

Job 38: 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

In this verse it uses starS (plural) which shows it doesn't have to be just 1 being that is capable of that.

[Mark]

OH yes, the old contendingforturth, and Hell's Bell's. Hell's Bell's is cheesy, outdated, and filled with biased opinions. It almost entirely built around the lyrics of the songs which obviously is not the question here. So I ask again what makes the music itself wrong??

Nothing wrong with the Hells Bells series. Why would you mock it?

So I ask again what makes the music itself wrong??

Psalm 100 1 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands.

Where is the joyful noise in that kind of music? Also that kind of music was started as rebellion music. Are you rebelling agaisnt God? Its not real hard here, are you giving up the World for Jesus or are you staying in the world?

[Psalm 51:17]

Also, Christian Rock and other Christian metal bands were forbidden in churches 50 years ago - WHY all of a sudden is it being embraced? If it were really any good, why didn't our early church fathers accept it?

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever...Hold fast to what thou hast learned...

[metaldrew]

Nothing wrong with the Hells Bells series. Why would you mock it?

Psalm 100 1 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands.

Where is the joyful noise in that kind of music? Also that kind of music was started as rebellion music. Are you rebelling agaisnt God? Its not real hard here, are you giving up the World for Jesus or are you staying in the world?

Well I mock it because again it has personal biases, and anyone under 40 finds it extremely cheesy. I love it when people use that verse, so YOU can tell ME what is a joyful noise?? No you can't!!! I do find it joyful to hear For today yelling "let my name be feared at the gates of hell" I do find it joyful to hear Becoming the Archetype screaming a rendition of "How Great Thou Art", I find that very joyful and you can't tell me that I don't, so that completely throws that argument out.

And again, just because something started as a rebellion, that has nothing to do with the music itself, God can bring great stuff out of bad beginnings. I know you know Romans 8:28. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose...

It is being embraced because people have finally realized that alot of people are not going to be reached by hymns and gospels. I tink the very CHRISTIAN METAL band Impending doom says it best...


To the following Christians listen closely.
We bring our light to a new realm, a realm you dare not enter,
Passing judgment behind stone walls, behind your absence of understanding.
We will crush your walls that dictate where our ministry goes,
Don't you ever tell me I'm using God as a gimmick.
I'm not a heretic, I'm not a hypocrite;
Those insults make me sick from the ones I have fellowship with.
We aren't doing this for our own, but for one name holy and alone.
These venues are our church,
We are the gospel in the darkness, and this is our exaltation.
We are the gospel in the darkness; we bring our light to a new realm,
A realm you dare not enter, passing judgment behind stone walls,
Behind your absence of understanding.
Are you listening!!!
We'll crush the walls that dictate where our ministry goes,
This is our church, this is our worship

[Mark]

Well I mock it because again it has personal biases, and anyone under 40 finds it extremely cheesy.

you speak for everyone under 40? So your mocking somethign that goes accordingly with Gods word. oK.

I love it when people use that verse, so YOU can tell ME what is a joyful noise?? No you can't!!!

Sure i can, a joyful noise isnt the sound of cats in a bag being beaten. And well thats what you ahve with the kind of music.

that has nothing to do with the music itself,

It has everything to do with the music itself. If youd have watched the videos and actual;ly listened instead of moking them you would have realised that. That kind of music isnt new. It didnt start in the 60's and 70's. It goes all the way back to Babylon.

Michale W Smith comes accross very Christian, yet once you dig down into his stuff it is filled with the occult. So you can sit and mock and proclaim your death meatal christian music, just look at that, death meatal christian music. 

You can wrap up a pig in a dress and put lip stick on it, and well its still a pig. Same goes with this. You are trying to conform Jesus to your thinking, and NOT trying to make yourself conform to Jesus. Something to think about.

[metaldrew]

No I cant speak for everyone under 40, but anyone i know that has seen that video doesn't find it to be of any help, and I am not mocking God's word, how dare you accuse me of that.


No you can't. It definitely doesn't sound like that, and frankly I don't give a crap what you have to say, you are obviously just stuck in your ways, and that will never change, you are now just stating your OPINION, which just just that, and OPINION that doesn't mean anything to anyone except yourself wrapped up in your own judgmental little world, I feel sorry for people like you...

Again in has nothing to do with the music, Jesus never condemned a certain type of music, He encouraged creativity, and praising Him in your own way. I did watch them, I knew about them way before this thread and it has no fact about why the music itself is bad, just as the Todd videos have no proof, just someone spouting off what they believe. That stuff about Micheal W. Smith is complete bull, I can't believe that you would listen to just whoever comes along and starts saying random degrading things about Christian artists who have done nothing but try to spread the word.

Yeah look at that, death metal Christian music, what a nice ring it has to it right??

Well this has nothing to do with a pig being wrapped up, it has to do with solid christian believers playing music to reach people that YOU would just ignore, its crazy, YOU are trying to keep people from being saved, where as people in these bands and myself are reaching out to everyone... Huh sound familiar?? Oh yeah, that's what Jesus did, reached out and loved everyone, It seems like I am conforming to Jesus, and you are making Him conform to you...


YOU are the one pushing your beliefs down people's throat. I don't care if you want to listen to my music, just don't tell me that it's wrong, maybe you should look at Romans 14, esp. the last few verse... Something to think about...

[Mark]

No you can't. It definitely doesn't sound like that, and frankly I don't give a crap what you have to say, you are obviously just stuck in your ways, and that will never change, you are now just stating your OPINION, which just just that, and OPINION that doesn't mean anything to anyone except yourself wrapped up in your own judgmental little world, I feel sorry for people like you...

and there we go. Only your opinion matters. and im the one forcing my beliefs down peoples throats. yep, look how angry you are? where do you think that comes from?

[Kilika]

Seeing that this is a Christian website, the general attittude around here tends to be rather calm and without posts that are filled with accusations.

metaldrew, the basic stereotype of metal is what? Being angry about something, raging. That's the origins of that style music. It's about rebellion and resisting the establishement. Christianity can relate to that kind of thing stragnely enough, but the anger must be focused, as it says to be "angry and sin not, let not the sun go down upon your wrath".

But I ask you, if we are to give the reasons of the hope in us to everyone that asks of us, then how can we do that with meekness and fear when we are raging? What is humble about that whole scene? Nothing. It's all about making a scene, which is just the opposite of what Jesus wants us to do.

and frankly I don't give a crap what you have to say

That is a typical metalhead raging response. Bad attitude is what it is, and I personally don't like seeing it hear in this type forum. Mind your manners here, God willing.

Remember that "grievous words stir up anger..."

Nobody is pushing anything on you. In, fact you came to this forum of your own accord. You chose to read and post here.

I ask you plainly, how is a person saved?

[metaldrew]

Wow, you people are so two faced...  Dok was very rude and accusing me of mocking God's word, and that's why I got angry, but I don't see anyone getting mad about that, but I said the word crap, oh no let me "mind my manners" how bout ya'll start treating people fairly??

You ARE forcing it down my throat, and my anger has nothing to do with my music, and everything to do with a so called fellow believer telling me I am mocking the word. And anger is ok, ever heard of righteous anger?? look it up

Metal has nothing to do with being angry I have already quoted several positive and uplifting lyrics, including a rendition of How great Thou art, but ya'll seem to ignore that, convenient... You don't know anything about metal, and i am willing to bet you havent listened to it at all or if so a few songs here and there to make fun of and to see how "demonic" it is. Listen to Underoath, As I lay Dying, For Today, the band that was mentioned Texas In July and tell me those lyrics arent positive, and they are certainty not negative and "raging".

It has nothing to do with making a scene, it has a way of reaching kids that again, people like you are too stubborn and frankly don't love people enough to reach out to...

My response for the last time was out of anger towards a false accusation from a fellow "brother" nothing more, I do have manners and have not acted in any way out of that, and do not need you to tell me so.

I chose to read and post here so that someone reading this wouldn't have a lot of false information about a music genre that is saving people'es lives...


And I tell you plainly:

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:9-10

[Mark]

What is anyone forcing down your throat? Why are you so angry?

and accusing me of mocking God's word

Lets look at what i said.

So your mocking something that goes accordingly with Gods word

I never said you mocked Gods Word.

Metal has nothing to do with being angry

You need to really watch that first set of videos. the one that says 1 of 22. We have nothing but love for you here, and you do not have to agree with what i say. Your more than welcome to do what you want.

[B4Real]

Dok can you please ban metaldrew- he is of a false spirit, anyone that calls metal or any kind of christian rock good is calling bitter sweet.

[B4Real]

like the 11.11.11call to pray in Detroit. False. Antichrist. Paul said watch out for those preaching other Jesus'. Music is demonic influence. God is thrice holy.

[metaldrew]

If you want to ban me, go ahead it won't affect me... But I hope B4real can learn to be accepting of people and just because someone has a different view than you call a believer a "false spirit"... You need a lot of prayer

[Kilika]

For what it's worth, I use to listen to hard rock and some metal, many years ago, then I grew up and put away childish things. While commercial, I use to like Metallica, System of a Down was okay, but classic rock was my preference. Anything from the Scorpions to Black Sabbath, Van Halen, Ted Nugent, KISS, and even some Limp Bizqit. Never got into death metal or industrial though. My first concert I ever went to was the Edgar Winter band. Look them up. They weren't bubblegum top 40.

The point is your accusations are unfounded. You really need to back up and chill. This isn't a bunch of kids here. All of us are grown adults, but your posts betray you as a young person. That attitude is showing.

Metal has nothing to do with being angry I have already quoted several positive and uplifting lyrics

Really? Then you don't know metal! Your a wannabe headbanger. Positive and uplifting is the added Christian part. Metal itself is not positive or uplifting, unless your into the whole headbanger attitude.

You ARE forcing it down my throat

You know what? I can't count how many unbelievers Ihave heard say that time and again. if your a believer, you would be well served to stop saying that phrase, as it makes you look like an unbeliever.

As I said, you were not forced to come here,

Nor were you forced to even read anything here.

Nor were you forced to post anything here.

Now get over it, or maybe it might be better that you just move along to other places, at least till you learn how to talk to people.

While your at it, read 1 Cornthinans 13.