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Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government

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Author Topic: Mike Hoggard: Blindly follow the Government  (Read 9271 times)
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« on: June 20, 2011, 05:00:20 pm »

Maybe slightly off-topic, however, very important...Please listen to this...did Pastor Hoggard just endorse unlimited subservance to Romans 13?

It is SURE sounding like it...please listen to this...

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=53011135937

http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=53011135937
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2011, 05:25:49 pm »

I'm 30 minutes into this - I can NOT believe what I'm hearing. He is NOW COMPLETELY contradicting EVERYTHING he's said on his many previous watchmen broadcasts!

Now he's saying that Presidents like Obama are higher powers appointed by God and the sword is given to these Presidents by God to do justice as Romans 13 says.

Huh?!? So how about all those Big Brother technology that Obama's allowing to implement(as well as our other recent Presidents)?? Is this part of the "sword" given to him by God to do good?? Or how about Ronald Reagan restoring diplomatic relations with the Vatican for the first time in 100 years?? I guess Reagan was "just NOT perfect" which is why he did this??

Hoggard also tried to tie Psalms 91(the God's protection passage) to Romans 13 - has Hoggard forgot about how Christians are getting arrested for street preaching, witnessing to Muslims, etc, in recent time?? And Hoggard even quoted "If the government shoves health care down our throats, then we should shove health care down others as well", and he also quoted that we need MORE laws b/c of the BAD people that are breaking it constantly. Huh?!? So the Capitol Hill corrupt officials that pass one draconian bill after another get a free pass??

Please everyone, listen to this sermon, at least 1/2 of it. The reason why this got my attention is b/c in Part 4 when Scott started talking about 501c3, he said how one of his listeners emailed him about this, so I wanted to verify this for myself.
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2011, 05:51:31 pm »

that doesn't sound good.  Huh
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2011, 01:10:07 am »

Honestly, dunno what's going on - however, remember when Greg Dixon said one day, Caesar will call in his chips?

If they got to Hoggard...chances are Caesar may have called them in recently.
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2011, 01:39:05 am »

Honestly, dunno what's going on - however, remember when Greg Dixon said one day, Caesar will call in his chips?

If they got to Hoggard...chances are Caesar may have called them in recently.

Yeah I guess that's why the Lord says not to trust in man, but in Jesus Christ.

There are so many wolves in sheeps clothing its not funny. I even think possibly people like "Michael Slattery" might be one, but I have talked to him still recently.

Either way I'm glad I'm not in a Church system, and trusting in the Word of God, and Jesus Christ.

Do you think hes in on the NWO?
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2011, 01:48:13 am »

Yeah I guess that's why the Lord says not to trust in man, but in Jesus Christ.

There are so many wolves in sheeps clothing its not funny. I even think possibly people like "Michael Slattery" might be one, but I have talked to him still recently.

Either way I'm glad I'm not in a Church system, and trusting in the Word of God, and Jesus Christ.

Do you think hes in on the NWO?

From what I understand, people who belong to secret societies like the Jesuits and Freemasonry...they are SO secret, that even their spouses don't have a clue. Yes, when they have adulterous affairs, their spouses would get suspicious pretty quickly. However, it's quite the opposite when they're in secret societies...even their own close families don't have a clue(saw one video on the Jesuits about this).

No, I don't think Hoggard is an NWO/secret society member. But he DID make a big mistake in yoking up his church with 501c3. I don't know what happened in recent weeks. However, it looks like the IRS took plenty of notes from his sermons(which he posts online). I've seen sermons where he called out other false religions. It looks like the IRS may have given him an ultimatum.

And yes, in the "church system", you are trained to obey and revere the pastor.
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2011, 05:28:31 am »

It is weird, and seems out of character for him. Id like some more information. Would he lead his church to a FEMA camp? Does he support the Clergy Responce Teams? Does he think Daniel was wrong for resisting the Babylonian leaders? Was Jesus wrong for not obeying the leaders of Israel?

If the Gov says to kill our neighbors should we? What about spy on them? oh wait, they did. Until Mr. Hoggard can answer some of these I cannot support him any more. I understand what he is saying, and yes this country deserves the leaders we have. But to just blindly follow and do what they say is wrong. And the Bible backs that up.

Sorry but most of our Government does not follow a Godly Law or belief. Our Gov supports and endorses abortion. I will not, I will not stand with any one that does, and that includes the Government and the Bible backs me. We are to obey God first.

Act 5:24   Now when the high priest and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. 
 Act 5:25   Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people. 
 Act 5:26   Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned. 
 Act 5:27   And when they had brought them, they set [them] before the council: and the high priest asked them, 
 Act 5:28   Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. 
 Act 5:29   Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 


You can see from this perfect example all that needs to be said. We are to follow a Just and Right and Godly Government, but when that Gov goes against what God says than we follow God.


From Scott,
Romans 13 & Unlimited Subservience to the Government: Where should a Bible Believing Christian Draw the Line?
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1157

Feds Train 501c3 Clergy To ‘Quell Dissent’ During Martial Law (3 Parts)
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1158

Disturbing 501c3 Corporate Church Report
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1062

The 501c3 Church Being Muzzled
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1172
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2011, 06:21:46 am »

Rethinking Romans 13

In recent years, Christians have interpreted Romans 13 as a command for unlimited submission to government by God. Many proponents of this belief have sat passively by, in the soft pews of their place of worship, while evil has triumphed in most areas of family and church life. In our pacifistic smugness, many have allowed government to become god without even knowing.

Yet, when confronted with the true meaning of Romans 13, absurd accusations are shouted in religious rhetoric toward those who would dare to break an unjust law or even to question the almighty government. The opponents of unlimited submission to government are deemed as rebellious, anarchist and disobedient. However, there is no practical, historical or biblical consistency in the shallow agreements of these simpletons.

First, unlimited submission to government is not practical. For a philosophy to be a valid philosophy, it must be consistent. As a result, it does not make practical sense to blindly obey a tyrant like Adolph Hitler or deem a law such as abortion-on-demand a legitimate law just because one's government says it is public policy. However, if Romans 13 teaches unlimited submission to government, then we must obey and acknowledge all laws, good and bad, as the will of God. If all governments are of God, then all laws are of God. This in not practical from any point of view.

Second, it is not historical. Our founding fathers recognized and understood tyranny and despotism. They perceived the ultimate end of the king's actions. Thus, they besought George III to relent in his persecutions and implored him to uphold his covenant agreement.

In July of 1774, our forefathers met in Fairfax County, Va., and considered ways of forcing Great Britain to redress American grievances. George Washington and George Mason were the instrumental agents in drafting what has come to be known as the "Fairfax Resolves."

Ponder for a moment Resolves five and six:

"Resolved that the claim lately assumed and exercised by the British Parliament, of making all such Laws as they think fit, to govern the people of these colonies, contrary to the first Principles of the Constitution, and the original Compacts by which we are dependent upon the British Crown and Government; but is totally incompatible with the privileges of a free people, and the natural Rights of Mankind; will render our own Legislatures merely nominal and nugatory, and is calculated to reduce us from a state of freedom and happiness to slavery and misery."

"Resolved that Taxation and Representation are in their nature inseparable; that the right of withholding, or of giving and granting their own money is the only effectual security to a free people, against the encroachments of Despotism and Tyranny; and that whenever they yield to one they fall prey to the other."

All of the Resolves are loaded with bullets that explode against a tyrannical and despotic government. The "shot that was heard around the world on Lexington green was loaded in the "Fairfax Resolves." How can one make that statement? After pleading with George III to uphold his covenant agreement and after seeking for a redress of grievances, the "coup de grace" is plainly stated in the 23rd Resolve:

"Resolved that it be recommended to the Deputies of the general Congress to draw up and transmit an humble and dutiful petition and remonstrance to his Majesty, asserting with decent firmness our just and constitutional Rights and Privileges, lamenting the fatal necessity of being compelled to enter into measures disgusting to his Majesty and his Parliament, or injurious to our fellow subjects in Great Britain; declaring the strongest terms of duty and affection to his Majesty's person, family and government, and our desire to continue our dependence upon Great Britain; and must humbly beseeching his Majesty, not to reduce his faithful subjects of America to a state of desperation, and to reflect, that from our Sovereign there can be but one appeal."

In simple terms, the Resolves offered George III two obvious choices. One was to fulfill his covenant obligations and be the king and ruler to the American Colonies that he had agreed to be or, second, to prepare for war. George III was asked to reflect upon the fact, that if he did not keep his end of the covenant, there could "be but one appeal."

Last --and most important -- it is not biblical. Daniel disobeyed Darius and went to the lions den. The three Hebrew children broke the law for not bowing. The parents hid baby Moses from Pharaoh. Rahab lied to protect the Hebrew spies. The Apostles went to prison for preaching Christ in the authority of Heaven. Paul and his followers in Acts 17 did contrary to all the decrees of Caesar in order to make Jesus the King. Even Jesus lived in direct opposition of the political religious leaders of his day and went to the cross for us.

Romans 13 is a treatise by Paul and the Apostles on the institution of model government. As we rightly divide the word of truth and take this passage in its total context, we will discover seven truths:


Good government is ordained by God.

Government officials are to be good ministers who represent God.

We the people must obey good and godly laws.

As we relate Romans 13 to America, our Constitution is the higher power -- not the IRS tax code.

Good government is not to be feared.

In America, we are to pay honor and custom and constitutional taxes to whom it is due.

Government is to protect the righteous and punish the wicked.
As a result, we have a practical, historical and biblical mandate to fervently disobey any unconstitutional laws and all government officials who cease to be good ministers of Jesus Christ. God almighty is the only power that deserves unlimited obedience.

Greg A. Dixon is the senior pastor of the Indianapolis Baptist Temple and has written several columns about the plight of his congregation.



Read more: Rethinking Romans 13 http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22417#ixzz1PuOciq95
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2011, 06:27:33 am »

ROMANS 13 & CHRIST'S "CLERGY RESPONSE TEAMS"

NewsWithViews.com

Pastors across the country have been called on by the Department of Homeland Security to join “Clergy Response Teams” in order to placate and control the people of America in the event of local or national emergencies. Jeff Ferrell, a reporter for KSLA in Shreveport, claimed that “For the clergy team, one of the biggest tools that they will have in helping calm the public down or to obey the law is the bible itself, specifically Romans 13.” This idea was affirmed in the report by Dr. Durell Turberville who was quoted as saying, "because the government is established by the Lord, you know. And, that's what we believe in the Christian faith. That's what's stated in the scripture."

I believe that we may be “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,” and “ to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, but I do not see where that gives us a right to blame God for the governments we establish by that consent for ourselves.

According to the Bible when the “voice of the people” elected Saul and established a government under his authority, God called it a “rejection” of Him.

“And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.” 1 Samuel 8:7
When the Israelites were freed from the bondage of Egypt by Moses the people were told in Deuteronomy 17:16 to never go back to that type of government again. Even Jesus said we were not to be like the governments of other nations, where their benefactors exercise authority one over the other.

“And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so...” Luke 22:25, Matthew 20:25, Mark 10:42
Certainly all governments are not established by God. Were the governments of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, all ordained by God? What of George the III? If all governments are ordained of God, Americans owe George a sincere apology and should learn to sing God save the queen.

So, what is Paul trying to tell us in Romans 13? Today, when any Christian attempts to question the authority or right of government to limit the rights, choices, or liberties of the people they commonly hear pastors and other Christians reciting Romans 13. Unfortunately these pastors and their followers are under a strong delusion that has crept into the thinking of modern Christians.

Romans 13, in the King James version of the Bible, begins:

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.” Romans 13:1
We should have a hard time understanding this statement by Paul to mean that we must be obedient to all governments, while, Paul himself was constantly getting into trouble with governments for supposedly disobeying. All we have to do to resolve this apparent dilemma is honestly look anew at the text itself.

In any unabridged English dictionary the word power can have over a dozen different definitions. The question is which of these many definitions should we apply to our thinking when we read these words of Paul? Does it mean the authority of government, the power to act, or the right to choose?

To understand Paul we simply need to know what the word Paul actually used and what it truly means within the context of the Bible. The word translated into power in Romans 13 is one of more than half a dozen Greek words which are all translated into the single English word power within the New Testament.

The Greek word used in Romans 13 by Paul is exousia, which is defined: “power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases." It is translated “right” in Hebrews 13:10 and Revelations 22:14, and it is even translated “liberty” in Paul's own 1Corinthians 8:9.

Everywhere in the original text of the Bible the translation of exousia as liberty or right would fit the context of scripture. One may translate it as power, but only in the sense of the power of choice. Most modern ministers might object to this conclusion and no one should merely take my word for this interpretation. What is the opinion of others concerning the word exousia? Does it mean the power of government, or the power of choice?

In Plato's notes, we find the "Greek words for freedom (are) eleutheros (liberal/Free), exousia (Freedom/Power to do something), ..." You would think that Plato would know what the words meant back then.

In Bryn Mawr's Classical Review, the word exousia is said to express “the new concept of freedom, in opposition to the already defunct and unhelpful eleutheria." Even the Greek Glossary of Aristotelian Terms states that exousia means “right”. Aristotle, another guy who should know what the Greek actually means exemplifies exousia's use in the statement, "The right (exousia) to do anything one wishes..."

The Greek word exousia is considered to be one of the strongest words in the Greek language representing the idea of liberty. Accepting the idea that Romans 13 is actually a statement by Paul in support of individual liberty, rather than a command to submit to the commands of authoritarian rulers, will be difficult for some pastors and Christians alike to admit.

There should be no question that the word exousia in the original text means power in the sense of “the right to choose” or “liberty of choice.” And if so, then Romans 13 should be read and understood as saying:

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher liberty. For there is no liberty but of God: the liberties that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the liberty, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the liberty? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same.” Romans 13: 1,3
Can this really be true? Was Paul talking about liberty and not the subjugation of the people under rulers? From the beginning to the end, the Bible is talking about the liberty of men under God rather than the subjection of the people under other men like Cain, Lemech, Nimrod, Pharaoh, and even Herod or Caesar. If God endowed us with our right to choose why would he want us to give that right to choose to other men? Understanding that the word exousia can and does mean liberty seems to turn the world upside down for some ministers.

Pastors need to reexamine what they have been led to believe the authors of the Gospel are actually saying. If not, then the people need to reexamine the scriptures and maybe their pastors. We all need to rightly divide the word of truth, because many have been cunningly deceived by some who have “crept in unawares... denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Jeff Ferrell, the KSLA-TV reporter, also stated that, “Such clergy response teams would walk a tight-rope during martial law between the demands of the government on the one side, versus the wishes of the public on the other.”

First of all, the lawful demands of a “government of the people, for the people, and by the people” would be the same as the “wishes of the people.” If they are not the same, then something is not as it should be. Secondly, the “wishes of the people” who believe in God can never usurp the rights of their neighbors without doing violence to the command of God, Moses, and Christ to love our neighbor as ourselves.

God desires that every man should have the unimpaired and divine right of choice as long as that choice does not violate the right of our neighbor to make his own choices. There is a distinction between the privileges of governments granted by the people and the rights of the people granted by God, but the ministers of Christ should not be trying to walk that line as a tightrope. They should be squarely on the side of the people and their God given rights.

The Church was instituted by Christ to serve the purposes of God. The governments of the world usually have their own administers. One of God's purposes is to return every man to his family and to his possessions through the exercise of faith, hope, and charity in the ways of Christ under the perfect law of liberty. While we should give to Caesar what is Caesar's we are also told to give to God what is God's. Often governments may think they have a right to that which should belong to God. That would be an intolerable usurpation and it is the job of the clergy to be on the side of the people on God's behalf.

Abraham, Moses, and Christ came to set men free in spirit and in truth. The “Clergy Response Teams” of Christ must act in the service to His purposes, even if that means that they may appear to disobey the demands of men or their governments.

"Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29
If lies and deception are the bars and bricks that form our own mental prison, then vanity and pride are the mortar that binds them together. From the beginning , our Creator has allowed that men have the power to choose to be free souls under God or go under the authority of other men and their gods. That choice is never without consequences. We are not faithful to God unless we choose to accept the inherent and correlative responsibilities of those Natural Rights He has individually endowed upon all mankind.

We must not only care about the rights of others, while exercising our own, but we must fulfill that obligation without infringing on the rights of our neighbor to make their own choices. To accomplish that mission prescribed by God we must discover the whole truth and provide for it.

Footnotes:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Gregory/williams100.htm
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2011, 06:45:14 am »

ROMANS CHAPTER 13

By Pastor Chuck Baldwin

August 10, 2007

NewsWithViews.com

It seems that every time someone such as myself attempts to encourage our Christian brothers and sisters to resist an unconstitutional or otherwise reprehensible government policy, we hear the retort, "What about Romans Chapter 13? We Christians must submit to government. Any government. Read your Bible, and leave me alone." Or words to that effect.

No doubt, some who use this argument are sincere. They are only repeating what they have heard their pastor and other religious leaders say. On the other hand, let's be honest enough to admit that some who use this argument are just plain lazy, apathetic, and indifferent. And Romans 13 is their escape from responsibility. I suspect this is the much larger group, by the way.

Nevertheless, for the benefit of those who are sincere (but obviously misinformed), let's briefly examine Romans Chapter 13. I quote Romans Chapter 13, verses 1 through 7, from the Authorized King James text:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."

Do our Christian friends who use these verses to teach that we should not oppose President Bush or any other political leader really believe that civil magistrates have unlimited authority to do anything they want without opposition? I doubt whether they truly believe that.

For example, what if our President decided to resurrect the old monarchal custom of Jus Primae Noctis (Law of First Night)? That was the old medieval custom when the king claimed the right to sleep with a subject's bride on the first night of their marriage. Would our sincere Christian brethren sheepishly say, "Romans Chapter 13 says we must submit to the government"? I think not. And would any of us respect any man who would submit to such a law?

So, there are limits to authority. A father has authority in his home, but does this give him power to abuse his wife and children? Of course not. An employer has authority on the job, but does this give him power to control the private lives of his employees? No. A pastor has overseer authority in the church, but does this give him power to tell employers in his church how to run their businesses? Of course not. All human authority is limited in nature. No man has unlimited authority over the lives of other men. (Lordship and Sovereignty is the exclusive domain of Jesus Christ.)

By the same token, a civil magistrate has authority in civil matters, but his authority is limited and defined. Observe that Romans Chapter 13 clearly limits the authority of civil government by strictly defining its purpose: "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil . . . For he is the minister of God to thee for good . . . for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

Notice that civil government must not be a "terror to good works." It has no power or authority to terrorize good works or good people. God never gave it that authority. And any government that oversteps that divine boundary has no divine authority or protection.

Civil government is a "minister of God to thee for good." It is a not a minister of God for evil. Civil magistrates have a divine duty to "execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." They have no authority to execute wrath upon him that doeth good. None. Zilch. Zero. And anyone who says they do is lying. So, even in the midst of telling Christians to submit to civil authority, Romans Chapter 13 limits the power and reach of civil authority.

Did Moses violate God's principle of submission to authority when he killed the Egyptian taskmaster in defense of his fellow Hebrew? Did Elijah violate God's principle of submission to authority when he openly challenged Ahab and Jezebel? Did David violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to surrender to Saul's troops? Did Daniel violate God's principle of submission to authority when he disobeyed the king's law to not pray audibly to God? Did the three Hebrew children violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to bow to the image of the state? Did John the Baptist violate God's principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem? Did Paul violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to obey those authorities who demanded that he abandon his missionary work? In fact, Paul spent almost as much time in jail as he did out of jail.

Remember that every apostle of Christ (except John) was killed by hostile civil authorities opposed to their endeavors. Christians throughout church history were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by civil authorities of all stripes for refusing to submit to their various laws and prohibitions. Did all of these Christian martyrs violate God's principle of submission to authority?

So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority--even civil authority--is limited.

Plus, Paul makes it clear that our submission to civil authority must be predicated on more than fear of governmental retaliation. Notice, he said, "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." Meaning, our obedience to civil authority is more than just "because they said so." It is also a matter of conscience. This means we must think and reason for ourselves regarding the justness and rightness of our government's laws. Obedience is not automatic or robotic. It is a result of both rational deliberation and moral approbation.

Therefore, there are times when civil authority may need to be resisted. Either governmental abuse of power or the violation of conscience (or both) could precipitate civil disobedience. Of course, how and when we decide to resist civil authority is an entirely separate issue. And I will reserve that discussion for another time.

Beyond that, we in the United States of America do not live under a monarchy. We have no king. There is no single governing official in this country. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with any man or any group of men. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with the President, the Congress, or even the Supreme Court. In America, the U.S. Constitution is the "supreme Law of the Land." Under our laws, every governing official publicly promises to submit to the Constitution of the United States. Do readers understand the significance of this distinction? I hope so.

This means that in America the "higher powers" are not the men who occupy elected office, they are the tenets and principles set forth in the U.S. Constitution. Under our laws and form of government, it is the duty of every citizen, including our elected officials, to obey the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, this is how Romans Chapter 13 reads to Americans:

"Let every soul be subject unto the [U.S. Constitution.] For there is no [Constitution] but of God: the [Constitution] that be [is] ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the [Constitution], resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For [the Constitution is] not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the [Constitution]? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For [the Constitution] is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for [the Constitution] beareth not the sword in vain: for [the Constitution] is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for [the Constitution is] God's minister, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."

Dear Christian friend, the above is exactly the proper understanding of our responsibility to civil authority in these United States, as per the teaching of Romans Chapter 13.

Furthermore, Christians, above all people, should desire that their elected representatives submit to the Constitution, because it is constitutional government that has done more to protect Christian liberty than any governing document ever devised by man. As I have noted before in this column (See: Read), Biblical principles form the foundation of all three of America's founding documents: The Declaration of Independence, The U.S. Constitution, and The Bill of Rights.

As a result, Christians in America (for the most part) have not had to face the painful decision to "obey God rather than men" and defy their civil authorities.

The problem in America today is that we have allowed our political leaders to violate their oaths of office and to ignore, and blatantly disobey, the "supreme Law of the Land," the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if we truly believe Romans Chapter 13, we will insist and demand that our civil magistrates submit to the U.S. Constitution.

Now, how many of us Christians are going to truly obey Romans Chapter 13?

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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2011, 08:58:38 am »

I was thinking the similar things too with the word "power" in Romans 13 - IF Paul was really talking about governments and ruling authorities in that passage, THEN WHY DIDN'T IT SAY goverments/ruling authorities in the first place?

And look at the NIV - they use "submit to the government" INSTEAD - now that says ALOT right there.

Also - didn't Ephesians 6:12 say these so-called governing authorities(principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of the world, and spiritual wickedness in high places - in this context of powers, they linked it to spiritual wickedness in high places) are wicked?

Pastor Hoggard has said many, many times how our current government is part of the Eph 6:12 passage - which is yet another reason he just contradicted himself completely.

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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2011, 09:12:28 am »

I was thinking the similar things too with the word "power" in Romans 13 - IF Paul was really talking about governments and ruling authorities in that passage, THEN WHY DIDN'T IT SAY goverments/ruling authorities in the first place?

And look at the NIV - they use "submit to the government" INSTEAD - now that says ALOT right there.

Also - didn't Ephesians 6:12 say these so-called governing authorities(principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of the world, and spiritual wickedness in high places - in this context of powers, they linked it to spiritual wickedness in high places) are wicked?

Pastor Hoggard has said many, many times how our current government is part of the Eph 6:12 passage - which is yet another reason he just contradicted himself completely.



Just curious, but was it you that emailed him and asked what his opinion was on this? Seems like something you'd do.  Huh
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2011, 11:51:37 am »

Just curious, but was it you that emailed him and asked what his opinion was on this? Seems like something you'd do.  Huh

You mean emailed Pastor Hoggard about this? No, I don't recall emailing him asking him about this - although last year before I joined his mailing list, I asked him a 501c3 question, and he pretty much brushed it off. For the most part, his church's web site is a *.com, which is what gave me the impression it wasn't a 501c3(as the *.org means non-profit).

But if I understand your question, he talked about Eph 6:12 many times and how it relates to our current government and world governments et al in his watchmen broadcasts.
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 11:58:53 am »

Uhm, no. He said some one emailed him and was asking about his position on Rom 13. I know you do that a lot. Just email people and ask them questions. I was really expecting it to have been you.  Cheesy
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2011, 12:08:15 pm »

Uhm, no. He said some one emailed him and was asking about his position on Rom 13. I know you do that a lot. Just email people and ask them questions. I was really expecting it to have been you.  Cheesy

LOL, no, it wasn't me. Yeah, I heard him say that at the beginning of the sermon. To be frank, the more I think about it, he probably said that as an excuse to preach it. Otherwise, I think he would have at least said something about it a long time ago(to be frank, I don't recall him saying anything about government hijacking churches in any of his watchmen broadcasts).

Ask Kilika and he'll tell you how many times/week I ask him questions via pm. Tongue
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 12:14:17 pm »

The weirdest part to me was the way he kept apologizing about it. He Kept saying how he liked the church and wanted to stay. It almost comes accross like he is forced to do this. Its all very weird. I never would have expected this from him. And at the end where he says he will pray for any that leave his church? whats that all about?
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2011, 12:51:15 pm »

The weirdest part to me was the way he kept apologizing about it. He Kept saying how he liked the church and wanted to stay. It almost comes accross like he is forced to do this. Its all very weird. I never would have expected this from him. And at the end where he says he will pray for any that leave his church? whats that all about?

Were you able to listen to the whole sermon? I only had time for 30 minutes of it.

Overall, imho, I think most pastors and churches were hoodwinked into doing this a long time ago-yes, we should discern ALL things, and test all the spirits. However, I can't help but think that they were tricked and hoodwinked into doing this from the get-go. And it's like that "roach motel" that was popular in the 80's - once you get yoked in, it's kinda hard to yoke out unless you're willing to give up everything. I know Greg Dixon went through this.

Although there are some exceptions - Chuck Swindol(Dallas Theological Seminary President) is encouraging everyone to get a 501c3.

And pray for any that leave his church? I thought a KJV-only guy should know full well that if someone rejects the testimony of Jesus Christ you witness to them, you just merely wipe the dust off of your feet. But who knows? Maybe with that statement you mention he made at the end, maybe he all but hinted he's forced to yoke up with the Clergy Response Teams? And he's hinting them to be careful?
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2011, 12:53:52 pm »

It almost comes accross like he is forced to do this.

I'd have to say I agree with this statement.  What it is or who we may never know, but it is obvious that someone is holding some power over his head.
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2011, 12:54:10 pm »

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Were you able to listen to the whole sermon?

ya, a couple of times.  I liked some of his stuff. and now this. Seems like Scott is the only legit guy out there.
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2011, 01:03:06 pm »

ya, a couple of times.  I liked some of his stuff. and now this. Seems like Scott is the only legit guy out there.

Beh - Scott is just flesh and blood like the rest of us.

Seriously though, while I don't follow man, Scott is one of the few people out there where I can hear some hard preaching nowdays. Sam Adams from Belleview, FL is another(his church is a non-501c3). I like Brian Denlinger alot as well(although Jesse forgot his last name, the other preacher at BD's home church, I find rather dry - but it's just a personal preference, and no more).

I attended my mom's Korean church in the metroplex on Sunday...yet another very soft sermon in today's church. He just mumbled and jumbled on how we can be a good neighbor to others. Same with a Lutheran church my uncle attends in Ohio a month ago - yet another "do good for the community" watered down message.
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« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2011, 01:16:49 pm »

I dont put Scott up on a pedastle.
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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2011, 10:26:26 pm »

Well, either way, the bible predicted many false prophets would rise. It also predicted a falling away in the end times.

Again, not going to try to speculate the situation with Pastor Hoggard - but for now, yah, stay away from him. If the blind follow the blind, both shall fall into a ditch...
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2011, 10:09:44 am »

 Does anyone remember in the Matthew 2:
 Of how King Herod sent out his priests and scribes to find the newborn Jesus, they knew his intentions were not friendly. They did however go out and find the newborn but failed to report it back, mainly because God spoke to them in a dream and they understood not to go against what God was telling them, and that was to not report the location to Herod, so they went back to their country in another way.
 The point is this;
 Promises ought not to be kept, where God's honor and preaching of his truth are hindered.
 
 Does your government give you reason to trust their intentions, do they meet in secrecy..plotting?  What fruit in the eyes of God do they produce?
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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2011, 09:16:13 am »

http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=3126#comment-2439
Dr. Scott Johnson says:
June 23, 2011 at 12:31 am

I am listening to it now. So far I see exactly what the problems with this sermon are. This is sickening to me. He is basically saying no matter how evil the government gets we are to obey them or we will go to hell (he makes this inference on at least two occasions but I couldn’t listen to any more of it after the 26:00 minute mark). His justification of the TSA is also a very good example of how deceived he is in regards to that subject. This army of perverts sexually assault little children and adults alike, and exposes them to massive amounts of radiation and takes pornographic pictures of them and evidently Pastor Hoggard feels this is all justified and we should just subject our children as well as ourselves to this extreme evil because the government knows best and we need to just obey and not question their obvious good intentions. This is just one example of a government evil that totally contradicts Scripture. The key phrase is when he (and the word of God) says “Rulers are not a terror to good works” but when the government is as rouge as ours, it has become just the opposite (which he evidently he does not see): A terror to good works (much like the TSA example I just cited). Our government is getting more wicked by the day and this government is ‘no minister of God to do good’ as this portion of Scripture implies, therefore these scriptures do not apply when the rulers are a terror to good works thereby proving they are not ministers of God to do good. This obviously is not to say that all US laws are unjust and terrible, it is just they are moving in that direction. All one would have to do is carefully look at the verses in this portion of Scripture to easily debunk this typical Romans 13 stance taught widely in the cemeteries/seminaries of America. In fact I did so in this teaching:

Romans 13 & Unlimited Subservience to the Government: Where should a Bible Believing Christian Draw the Line? http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1157

From the description of this sermon we read: Do Christians who use Romans 13 to teach that we should not oppose President Bush or any other political leader, really believe that civil magistrates have unlimited authority to do anything they want without opposition? For example, what if our President decided to resurrect the old monarchal custom of Jus Primae Noctis (Law of First Night)? That was the old medieval custom when the king claimed the right to sleep with a subject’s bride on the first night of their marriage. Would our sincere Christian brethren sheepishly say, ‘Romans Chapter 13 says we must submit to the government’? I think not. And would any of us respect any man who would submit to such a law? So, there are limits to authority. All human authority is limited in nature. No man has unlimited authority over the lives of other men. (Lordship and Sovereignty is the exclusive domain of Jesus Christ.) Did John the Baptist violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God’s principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem? Act 5:29: “Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.” So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority–even civil authority–is limited.

Also to drive this point home even further I am posting part of a report on this subject:
The Radical Message of Romans 13
Posted By evancurry on May 13, 2010

1 Let everyone be subject to Hitler, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against Hitler is rebelling against who God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of Hitler? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For Hitler is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. Hitler is God’s servant, agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to him, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
It seems strange to read Romans 13:1-7 like this, but this is exactly how the majority of churches in Nazi Germany

Adolf Hitler
applied it. Hitler is God’s servant. Therefore, we should not resist but submit ourselves to what he is doing. When Hitler came into power, Romans 13. When his Gestapo began to take your Jewish neighbors away, Romans 13. When his army invaded Poland, Romans 13. Hitler wisely embraced a twisted view of Romans 13 to give him unquestioned power by the majority of German Christians. Not many Christians spoke up because, let’s be frank, as long as you were on Hitler’s side you were on the winning side. Romans 13 gives Hitler a lot of lead-way to do as he pleases. I mean, Paul would tell the German Christians to be subject to the governing authorities, wouldn’t he? The pro-Nazi churches were just following Scripture, right?

Some Christians spoke up against Hitler. Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Karl Barth to name two. They were part of a much smaller group of German Christians, who spread anti-Nazi propaganda, and rejected the German government’s attempts to “Nazify” the churches in Germany. In response to this, they headed up a movement called the “Confessing Church” and signed the Barmen Declaration, which was a document directly speaking out against Nazi Germany. Were they in this way disobeying Scripture?

Nazi Germany was one of the greatest evils in all of history, and yet much of the German church sided with this evil because they believed they were following Scripture. It is easy to sit back in our chairs and condemn the pro-Nazi churches, but we would be wise to learn from history, instead of repeating it.

Also see the other reports below to get a feel for the fruit of the churches yoking up with the government and the massive amount of evil and leaven this has introduced into the church at large:
Disturbing 501c3 Corporate Church Report http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1062
Feds Train 501c3 Clergy To ‘Quell Dissent’ During Martial Law (3 Parts) http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1158
The 501c3 Church Being Muzzled http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1172

Here is another very interesting take on this subject:
Submission to the State

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
In my hands is an old, beat up Bible. Somebody has been thumping it too hard and it is falling to pieces. This particular Bible has subheadings for each chapter. At Romans 13 it says, “Submission to the State.” Wow, that really strikes a strong cord in me. Now those words are not part of the Scripture. They are just someone’s opinion of what Romans 13 says, but does it?

Romans 13 is the scripture that stumbles so many people when they try to “come out from among them.” How can they “come out” and “obey them” at the same time?

The harlot churches like to promote Romans 13 as meaning, “Obey Caesar,” or “Obey the law of the land.” How else can they interpret it? They have yoked themselves with Caesar through State incorporation. Their very life comes from the State. If they do not obey Caesar, Caesar will withdraw their corporate charter and they will die. State incorporated churches have only one choice if they are to survive: promote obedience to the State.

Barclay’s commentaries, which are used as a textbook in Sunday Schools, shows the typical attitude about Romans 13. Barclay says, “At first reading this is an extremely surprising passage, for it seems to counsel absolute obedience on the part of the Christian to the civil power. But, in point of fact, this is a commandment which runs through the whole New Testament.” According to Barclay, Romans 13 commands “absolute obedience on the part of the Christian to the civil power.” With commentaries like this, it is no wonder that Romans 13 was Hitler’s favorite Bible passage.

Absolute obedience means obeying the president and every bureaucrat under him. “Obey all these people who do not confess Jesus Christ. After all, God has set these men over us.” Are we to obey anyone who claims to be a higher authority? Let’s take another look at Romans 13 and rightly divide the word of truth.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:16
Understanding Romans 13 http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm
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« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2011, 10:17:54 am »

wow, I am going to listen to this one, I had been listening to Mike Hoggord for the past 5-6 months... I think he is a 501c3 Church even thought you can "attend" his church sevices online.

Thanks for the insight!
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« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2011, 10:37:11 am »

I listened to the entire sermon once and the first 25 minutes a second time.

Much like the vague insinuations against Chuck Missler, this seems to me to be another mole hill made into a mountain.


What I got from the sermon was trust God and submit to the laws of the land.

Did he say if the government tells you to kill your child then you do so, no he did not.

Did he say take the mark of the beast when given the choice between that and death, no he did not.

He said trust God and submit. He did not say submit no matter what.

I do not like many of the laws any more then most people, but there is a difference between a law that is unjust and a law that is unGodly. We each have to pray about and study the Bible about any law we think is unGodly. 

If you trust God then why are you afraid of men? You already know what the future holds, it is prewritten by God. You are going to either be Raptured or die. No one wants to be persecuted, but Christians are going to be increasingly persecuted and put upon. The devil rules this world, that is just how it is. As Christians you already know this. Fear is just your sinful flesh talking, as Born Again Christians we should all be striving to keep our eyes on God and doing His will, not what is about to happen to us down here.

I will go back listening to Pasture Mike's audios now, I have listened to almost everything on his website except his sermons but I still have about 1/5 or so of them to go.

Mike Hoggard is my favorite teacher, his verse by verse study of Revelation is awesome.

I would also like to thank Scot Johnson for exposing me to him.
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« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2011, 10:53:13 am »

Yes, everything Hoggard said in his watchmen audios just COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS what he said in his Romans 13 sermon.

He described Obama as MERELY "not perfect". No, he has NOT said one good thing about Obama in his watchmen audios.

If Ronald Reagan really was "not perfect", then why in the world did he re-establish diplomatic relations with the Vatican for the first time in over 100 years? Why did he let the Pope have more influence over our US government policies?

So Clinton was being "not perfect" when he fooled around with Monica Lewinsky and lied about it?

Was George W. Bush being "not perfect" when he lied about WMD being in Iraq?

Are the wars in the ME really protecting our freedoms here like Hoggard implied? Hoggard said the complete opposite in his watchmen videos.
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« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2011, 03:10:46 pm »

I listened to the entire sermon once and the first 25 minutes a second time.

Much like the vague insinuations against Chuck Missler, this seems to me to be another mole hill made into a mountain.


What I got from the sermon was trust God and submit to the laws of the land.

Did he say if the government tells you to kill your child then you do so, no he did not.

Did he say take the mark of the beast when given the choice between that and death, no he did not.

He said trust God and submit. He did not say submit no matter what.

I do not like many of the laws any more then most people, but there is a difference between a law that is unjust and a law that is unGodly. We each have to pray about and study the Bible about any law we think is unGodly. 

If you trust God then why are you afraid of men? You already know what the future holds, it is prewritten by God. You are going to either be Raptured or die. No one wants to be persecuted, but Christians are going to be increasingly persecuted and put upon. The devil rules this world, that is just how it is. As Christians you already know this. Fear is just your sinful flesh talking, as Born Again Christians we should all be striving to keep our eyes on God and doing His will, not what is about to happen to us down here.

I will go back listening to Pasture Mike's audios now, I have listened to almost everything on his website except his sermons but I still have about 1/5 or so of them to go.

Mike Hoggard is my favorite teacher, his verse by verse study of Revelation is awesome.

I would also like to thank Scot Johnson for exposing me to him.

Its more that he didn't say any of that stuff. If the Gov. shows up and tells me to go to a FEMA camp. Im not going. If they say we have to turn in all our Bibles are you? I mean the Church has a long history of NOT doing that. It is his total endorsement to blindly follow the government that bothers me. Its a secular worldly government, and not once did he say anything about not following anything they have to say. Dear Lord he even came out and said we should have more rules and laws. You have to be kidding me.

Quote
He did not say submit no matter what.

Basically he did say that. Not once did he give an example of not following the Gov, although the Bible is rife with it.
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« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2011, 03:42:51 pm »

FYI - here's more proof-

Go to page 9 of the PDF
http://unregisteredbaptistfellowship.com/trumpet/archives/pdf/Trumpet%20Jan-Mar2011.pdf

President Bush Vows to Rebuild Moslem Mosque;
Christian Church in U.S. Bulldozed after His
Attorney General Orders It Seized


By Dr. Greg Dixon
Reprinted from July-Sept 2008 Trumpet
CNN News reported on February
22, 2008 that President Bush has vowed
to rebuild a Moslem mosque that is suspected
of being destroyed by al-Qaeda.
There has been a series of terrorist
attacks on 27 Moslem mosques in Iraq,
including the renowned Al-Askariya
"Golden Mosque" in Samarra, one of the
holiest Shiite sites. The wave of attacks
followed an early morning bombing of
the mosque, which included a 6-hour
barrage of small arms fire, rocket-propelled
grenades and mortar rounds.
Three Sunni imams were killed in the
attacks.

The top half of the golden dome that
once towered above the Al-Askariya
Mosque collapsed in the blast. Minarets
flanking the dome remained standing
amid mounds of debris.

Shiites believe Imam al-Mehdi, the
12th and final awaited imam, will reappear
at the Al-Askariya Mosque to bring
them salvation. Al-Mehdi's father and
grandfather, the 11th and 10th imams
respectively, are buried in the shrine. Al-
Mehdi is said to have disappeared in the
eighth century during the funeral of his
father and is believed by Shiites to have
been withdrawn by God from the eyes of
the people, until his return.

Foreign fighters were likely responsible,
and the attack bore the hallmarks
of al Qaeda in Iraq, al-Rubaie said.
"They are really testing the patience of
the Iraqi people," he said, calling on
Muslims around the world to condemn
"this act of terrorism." The attack
occurred as Kurdish, Shiite and Sunni
leaders are working to form a national
unity government.

President Bush condemned the
"brutal bombing of the Golden
Mosque," promising help to rebuild it
and asking Iraqis to exercise restraint.
"The terrorists in Iraq have again proven
that they are enemies of all faiths and of
all humanity," he said in a statement.
"This senseless crime is an affront to
people of faith throughout the world."
Bush Attorney General Orders
Christian Church in U.S. Raided
and Bulldozed Down!


After President Bush's representatives
were given a legal plan by Attorney
Al Cunningham where by the
Indianapolis Baptist Temple property
could have been saved, and which the
President's liaison agreed was a feasible
plan, professed Christian Attorney
General John Ashcroft moved quickly to
seize the property by his own admission.
In a letter to Mr. Ashcroft dated
March 1, 2002, Pastor Greg A. Dixon
and I challenged Mr. Ashcroft with the
following words:

Dear Mr. Ashcroft:
This letter is to inform you that the congregation
of the Indianapolis Baptist Temple
is in total shock to learn of the slanderous
and false remarks that you made about our
congregation in a speech carried live on
CNN and Fox News Network on December
5, 2001, in which you connected the
Indianapolis Baptist Temple to domestic terrorism
.
This is especially egregious considering
the events of September 11,…
The slanderous and false words that
our congregation takes exception to were
delivered at the swearing in ceremony for
Benigno Reyna the new Director of the
Marshals Service which was held at the
U.S. Marshal Service headquarters at
Arlington, Virginia, on that date of
December 5. Those words are as follows:
"And I would just add that since I
became attorney general, I've had numerous
opportunities to witness the truth of your
message. For example, when I came on
board last winter, the first Department of
Justice operation conducted on my watch
was for the department to seize the assets

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jackie
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« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2011, 08:09:41 pm »

I listened to that sermon and kept feeling like he was getting people ready to accept martial law....very different from how he usually preaches/ teaches.

He knows the corruption in the government, why all this "patriotism and  submission to O. A red flag went up when he mentioned George Bush "didn't do everything right during 9/11

He has to know that was an inside job.   Big change. 
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Matt 24:42 "Watch therefor: for you know not what hour your Lord doth come."
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