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Can you lose your salvation?

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Author Topic: Can you lose your salvation?  (Read 1736 times)
Romans 8
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« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2012, 12:50:04 pm »

I do not see how, once you are truly saved and born again, that you would even be capable of giving that up.

Mark, I know you were responding to PG, but nonetheless the point also I was trying to make(which I forgot to mention) was that yes, when we are truly born again and saved, it doesn't exactly mean we are *changed* per se.

I mean over the years, when alot of these politicians run for office, in particular George W in 2000, when they witness their (supposedly)faith in Christ to their audiences, they saw "Jesus CHANGED my heart"...what's wrong with this picture? The word should be SAVED ME, *not* CHANGED ME(even Rick Warren used the latter words in his inauguration prayer). Yeah, I know George W and Warren are Luciferians(but that's not the point here). If they truely were born again, they would have used the word SAVED.

Anyhow, pt I'm trying to make above is that yes, while I myself and others here are truely saved and born again, nonetheless it's not like I(nor anyone else that is born again) are _immune_ to all the deceptions and wickedness going on in the world, which is why I pointed out how I felt, for example, over the last 4 years that the Lord was preventing me from going into these places, b/c otherwise I'll be honest, I could have very well fallen back into this present world. Jesus even promises to his flock that he will never pluck them out of his hand, and keep them from evil. So yes, I am SAVED, but again, I'm not *changed* per se, where if I go into this present world, I would have this super-duper discernment immunity with all the wolves and deceptions surrounding me.

I'm not very good with words, but do you see what I'm saying here?
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« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2012, 01:46:58 pm »

I'm not very good with words, but do you see what I'm saying here?
Satan comes as an angel of light or as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour; that's in regards to believers.

I know from experience; I came that close to turning my back and returning to the world.  I agree that God is faithful and delivered me from apostasy; but, at the same time, I believe that God tests our faith, to separate the chaff from the wheat, the sheep from the goats.
..................

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« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2012, 03:02:15 am »

Yes, exactly - there have been times when I just did not want to forgive the other person, but at the same time the Holy Spirit inside of me just kept nudging me to DO SO, and calmed down my anger et al inside of me.

I think the entire big picture here is that when we are saved, Jesus's blood COVERS our sin - blessed is he who's sins are covered. This is the big message that the modern-day church(and false prophets for that matter too) have missed greatly. They talk about this sin, that sin, this sin, that sin, etc. Again, if you commit one sin, you commit them all. Only Jesus's blood can cover them all!

Quote
I do not see how, once you are truly saved and born again, that you would even be capable of giving that up.

Hearing that you could commit a sin anytime in the next 2 secs means your living in fear. I have a loving heart, i forgive you whoever you are. I have to the Lord Jesus told me too. Remember that we are in a spiritual war and those attacking you are most likely being influenced by evil spiritual identities. Yeah as Mark said i dont know how one could lose their salvation.
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Kilika
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« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2012, 03:38:16 am »

Personally, I think we tend to forget where that "sin" comes from. It's the flesh folks, where no good thing dwells.

We all continue to sin, but it is as brother Paul has said that it is "no more I, but sin that dwelleth in me".

The lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life is not of the Father, but sin within the corrupt flesh.

What we also tend to do is forget that our sins are forgiven, thank you Jesus, past, present and future.

I don't believe a born-again Christian leaves their faith in Jesus. I don't believe that it is possible, because the Holy Spirit is their to protect you, and God has promised that He would keep us from the evil. God cannot let us just run around freely without influence and direction on what to do. It is us that ignore what the Spirit tells us and motivates us to do.

Just like the Prodigal Son. We all occasionally go into the city for a spell from time to time, but we ALL WILL be moved to return home in the end. God will never leave us nor forsake us. I'm counting on it!

This is in part I think why Jesus told us...

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 (KJB)
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Romans 8
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« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2012, 07:56:12 pm »

^^

+1000
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Kilika
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« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2012, 01:19:33 pm »

Colossians 2

1   For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and [for] them at Laodicea, and [for] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; 
2   That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 
3   In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 
4   And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 
5   For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 
6   As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him: 
7   Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 
8   Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 
9   For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 
10   And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 
11 ¶ In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 
12   Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 
13   And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 
14   Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 
15   [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 
16   Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: 
17   Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. 
18   Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 
19   And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 
20   Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 
21   (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 
22   Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 
23   Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
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« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2012, 07:22:07 pm »

What about if as a Christian you dont forgive someone of their sins before you die?
  I think once  a believer is cognizant of the scriptures you listed below, then they will be held accountable for forgiving.  I believe those scriptures are literal.  If someone does us wrong, I think we have to forgive them but that doesn't mean we have to trust them again.
Matthew 6:
14 For if ye FORGIVE men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also FORGIVE you:
15 But if ye FORGIVE not men their trespasses, neither will your Father FORGIVE your trespasses.

Mark 11:
25 And when ye stand praying, FORGIVE, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may FORGIVE you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not FORGIVE, neither will your Father which is in heaven FORGIVE your trespasses.

Luke 6:
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: FORGIVE, and ye shall be forgiven:
But if you have the Holy Spirit inside of you, He will make you forgive that person (the offender). Right?
  Couldn't agree more.
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Romans 8
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« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2012, 09:11:43 pm »

^^

When I used to read Charles Stanley devotionals, he layed out a way to forgive people - pretty much, he had the Nike "just do it" philosophy.

Maybe Stanley didn't mean wrong here, but nonetheless he is in ERROR. If you are a true born-again believer who studies the scriptures daily(with the Holy Spirit guiding you), the Lord WILL keep you in remembrance of them, and that INCLUDES the passages over how we need to forgive others. Can't tell you how many times I didn't want to forgive someone who wronged me, but the Lord just kept reminding me of the passage, for example, of the man who was forgiven by his master for an insurmountable debt he couldn't pay, and then when he didn't forgive a fellow servant of a debt he wouldn't pay him, his master came back to throw him in prison until he paid every penny back.

Mar 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26  But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


Luk 4:32  And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

Heb_8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
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« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2012, 04:59:13 pm »

and how about that scripture that basically says there's no limit to the amount of times we have to forgive-
Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother?   Seven times?
and the Lord said
Not seven times, but seventy times seven
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Christian40
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« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2012, 05:12:26 am »

and how about that scripture that basically says there's no limit to the amount of times we have to forgive - Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother? Seven times? and the Lord said Not seven times, but seventy times seven.

i know you have to forgive everyone. Some people are so hopeless that one has to forgive them 490 times everyday. When we realize what the Lord Jesus had to suffer to forgive us through the shedding of his blood for us then we can forgive others more easily.
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« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2012, 03:26:53 pm »

I just have 1-2 more questions concerning this issue...

So if I understand this correctly, for as long as we're in our flesh bodies, Christians(including us) will continue to struggle with sin, b/c the flesh warreth against the Spirit? And it will be a struggle until the last trump when our corruptible bodies will turn into incorruptible bodies?

I know this may sound like a silly question, but I'll be honest, after years of growing up in organized religion, pretty much what I was preached and teached at was that it's Satan who temps us, and even possesses us at times, and Christians should not sin. I don't recall anyone ever preaching/teaching about the carnal flesh.(and while I'm starting to come to a much better understanding now, I'm still trying to understand this)

And if you remember me talking about that "missionary" from Israel, that's all he pretty much did when he went around the pews - looking for people who were possessed by Satan.(he even found an opportunity to accuse me as well)
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« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2012, 03:57:44 pm »

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 (KJB)
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« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2012, 04:19:42 pm »

Paul struggled with this.

Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
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« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2012, 09:07:03 pm »

Okay i'm thinking of something, i believe that a Christian cant lose their Salvation, but do you believe that a Christian can lose their fellowship with the Lord Jesus if they sin too much? Fellowship with the Lord Jesus being different to Salvation by the Lord Jesus. The Prodigal Son Parable is linked to this reasoning. The prodigal son lost fellowship with his father but then went and restored fellowship.
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« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2012, 11:02:26 pm »

Okay i'm thinking of something, i believe that a Christian cant lose their Salvation, but do you believe that a Christian can lose their fellowship with the Lord Jesus if they sin too much? Fellowship with the Lord Jesus being different to Salvation by the Lord Jesus. The Prodigal Son Parable is linked to this reasoning. The prodigal son lost fellowship with his father but then went and restored fellowship.

When a small child throws a tantrum and stomps out of the room to sulk, do the parents not know where he is? From the child’s view, he is out of fellowship for a time. If the child stays in the room and argues with his parents, is that not still a form of fellowship?

Just because I’m not aware that He’s there doesn’t mean He isn’t. He knows my thoughts, motives, and every hair on my head. He knows me better than I know myself and will go out of His way to come and get me if I’ve wandered off. He also knows the exact thing to say to me at the exact right time in the exact right way that will get my attention. It could come through a person, a dream, some article that I “happen” to stumble upon, a song on the radio, a still small voice, or an inspirational thought that I might think is “my original idea”. He can also use me in a way that brings others to Him that I will be completely unaware of. I’ve already asked Him to take me as His, to shape my mind, will, and emotions. So I depend upon Him to be the author of my life.

When He finishes a work in me, I don’t have to worry about controlling red button temptations by my own effort because the mystery and intrigue are simply gone. He can completely fulfill any perceived “lack” which, when I think about it, is a motive for people to sin in the first place.

James 4:1  From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2  Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3  Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
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Kilika
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« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2012, 03:30:58 am »

Quote
He knows me better than I know myself and will go out of His way to come and get me if I’ve wandered off.

And He is able to do that how? How does God protect us from evil? By His Spirit within us when we are born-again. Just because our flesh gets us to act up at times, that doesn't change the fact that we are sons of God by the Holy Ghost in us.

By the saving grace of our Lord, we become in effect via Jesus without sin, as we are forgiven of the sin we do have. God no longer sees us sinning, but Jesus in our stead.

Indeed, we can't "wonder off" and get lost. God promised He would not let that happen by giving us of His Spirit. So even though we drift off at times, His Holy Ghost is still inside us guiding us, whether we listen all the time or not.

We are still His children, thank you Jesus!
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Christian40
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« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2012, 05:31:41 am »

When a small child throws a tantrum and stomps out of the room to sulk, do the parents not know where he is? From the child’s view, he is out of fellowship for a time. If the child stays in the room and argues with his parents, is that not still a form of fellowship?

Just because I’m not aware that He’s there doesn’t mean He isn’t. He knows my thoughts, motives, and every hair on my head. He knows me better than I know myself and will go out of His way to come and get me if I’ve wandered off. He also knows the exact thing to say to me at the exact right time in the exact right way that will get my attention. It could come through a person, a dream, some article that I “happen” to stumble upon, a song on the radio, a still small voice, or an inspirational thought that I might think is “my original idea”. He can also use me in a way that brings others to Him that I will be completely unaware of. I’ve already asked Him to take me as His, to shape my mind, will, and emotions. So I depend upon Him to be the author of my life.

When He finishes a work in me, I don’t have to worry about controlling red button temptations by my own effort because the mystery and intrigue are simply gone. He can completely fulfill any perceived “lack” which, when I think about it, is a motive for people to sin in the first place.

James 4:1  From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2  Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3  Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

And He is able to do that how? How does God protect us from evil? By His Spirit within us when we are born-again. Just because our flesh gets us to act up at times, that doesn't change the fact that we are sons of God by the Holy Ghost in us.

By the saving grace of our Lord, we become in effect via Jesus without sin, as we are forgiven of the sin we do have. God no longer sees us sinning, but Jesus in our stead.

Indeed, we can't "wonder off" and get lost. God promised He would not let that happen by giving us of His Spirit. So even though we drift off at times, His Holy Ghost is still inside us guiding us, whether we listen all the time or not.

We are still His children, thank you Jesus!

That is some of the best encouragement that i have ever read!
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« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2012, 04:59:05 pm »

FYI, I went to biblegateway.com and looked up how many times the word flesh comes up in both the KJV and NIV.

In the KJV, it came up 379 times, in the NIV only 159 times. No I didn't go through every verse in both versions, but looking at the BIG PICTURE, as you can see, the NIV does one heck of a job watering down the true meaning of the flesh.

No wonder why the modern-day church is lost today over how to preach the salvation message.
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« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2012, 06:14:58 pm »

Quote
Okay i'm thinking of something, i believe that a Christian cant lose their Salvation, but do you believe that a Christian can lose their fellowship with the Lord Jesus if they sin too much? Fellowship with the Lord Jesus being different to Salvation by the Lord Jesus. The Prodigal Son Parable is linked to this reasoning. The prodigal son lost fellowship with his father but then went and restored fellowship.

What is the point then of saying sinners will die? If one retains their salvation in spite of sinning or practicing sin after salvation then what? It doesn't make sense and conflicts with tons of scriptures. I don't think any one scripture nullifies any or all others do you?

Ezekiel 18:4 - ...The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.


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« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2012, 04:08:07 am »

Don't make the mistake of mixing law with grace!

Regardless of sin, "it is appointed unto men once to die..."

I mean seriously, what don't you understand charrington? I'm not sure it can be said any clearer than what already has been said.

You apparently don't understand what sin is, or even how we are forgiven, and actually it seems you don't understand how we are saved.
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« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2012, 12:58:36 pm »

I was thinking about this.

Satan has attempted to redefine sin.

Gen 3:2  And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3  But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Just as Eve had the choice of who to believe, we all still have the freedom to choose.

Man has attempted to redefine sin. “Competition is a sin.” says John D. Rockefeller. This redefining influence has expanded through human social conditioning programs.

Then there are sins of omission where I didn’t do something I should have or didn’t do something enough.

There’s sin that applies to me, but not necessarily to others such as owning occult books.

Rom 14: 20  For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21  It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22  Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

There’s “good intentions” sin where I thought I knew what I was doing, but ended up causing harm. Or even doing the right thing but going about it in the wrong way.

Then there’s the ripple effect. Because I did or said something miniscule that I don’t even remember, that influenced someone else, who influenced someone else, who became a genocidal tyrant.

My conclusion is that I have no idea what I am doing. Neither does man.

At the same time, in my current human state, I need the freedom to make mistakes in order to learn from them. Otherwise, I have learned nothing. The only solution that I see is His grace.

The bible promises a future, His future for us where He wants to share his authority with His children.

A common human trait is to seek authority while evading responsibility. The GWB “bad apples comment is a recent example. I believe and agree with God that these things should go hand-in-hand.

Mt 20: 25  But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26  But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27  And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28  Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

It’s His grace that limits my authority on this earth for the same reason that a toddler should not have access to the nuclear football. It’s also His grace that limits my physical lifespan. This is for the sake of everybody else.

I also believe that His unrecognized grace is the reason mankind still exists. No need to punish. On the contrary, I believe if He removed His hand from the earth, we would self-destruct in less than a day or two.

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(Camping in the woods with no shower/change of clothing literally highlights this verse for me)

Jn 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

My physical body is a write off. It is incompatible with the future that He has for me. Yet, the Creator still loves His present creation and I do too. So, in the meantime, there is a work that He can and does do in me to prepare me for the future. That is a renovation of character or an undoing of the warps imposed by the temporary god of this earth that go all the way back to Adam.

Still, people are completely free to choose their destiny.

Prov 21:2  Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts. (Thank God because that’s where it all starts.)

There is a human faction that desires to achieve immortality in its own way. They have announced their intentions and reject God’s plan in favor of their own. What this faction doesn’t realize is that this will result in a nightmarish, Frankenstein-like existence. These people will eventually long to die but will be unable to do so.

Rev 9:6  And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
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« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2012, 02:33:20 pm »

Don't make the mistake of mixing law with grace!

Regardless of sin, "it is appointed unto men once to die..."

I mean seriously, what don't you understand charrington? I'm not sure it can be said any clearer than what already has been said.

You apparently don't understand what sin is, or even how we are forgiven, and actually it seems you don't understand how we are saved.

Yeah, you and I have actually been over this many times and I actually think that very same thing of you Kilika - no offense meant - but there far too many scriptures that counter your beliefs in once saved and many other things you attest to. I know you cant see what I'm saying but it's only because you are not looking for truth because you think you have it. And don't take that the wrong way either because I'm in a similar position. A good many of the things you say are in my opinion completely backwards. So in effort to answer your question what I don't completely understand is how you can think what you do in spite of what is said in the Bible. The ransom is once and for all, IF you do has Jesus says to do - Other wise there is no ransom for you.

How many times did Jesus say it's the one that endures till the end that is saved? These all require more then just faith.


And the scripture is pertaining to all sin grace or not. Heb 10:26 -  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. End of story...


If you go back to the parable above and lets add another one to the list where Jesus himself is talking.

Matt 18:12-14 -  How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Here we see in this scripture that sheep, that is those that believe in Jesus can go astray, and we know he's talking about people who believe in him because just 8 verses before this, when he was talking about "these little ones" who are perishing he describes them as "little ones which believe in me". Matt 18:6.

It is therefore a fact that those that believe in him can go astray and be lost.

Anyway Kilika I know your position on the subject and you know mine I was actually looking to have a discussion with others not a blind argument over differences.
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« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2012, 04:07:27 am »

I hear ya. We definately are not on the same page. I had forgotten how far off your understanding is.

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The ransom is once and for all, IF you do has Jesus says to do - Other wise there is no ransom for you.


THAT is your problem. You, like others that are of the "works" doctrine, think salvation is conditional. There is no "IF". It's not conditional beyond belief, it's free. Just believe.

The "ransom" has already been paid.

And yes, we are done with this conversation, seeing you've managed to stir this whole topic up, again, and I now remember why I had issue with you posting here in the first place.

Maybe we should rectify that because I'm thinking that your postion is contrary to what we believe here, as it has been proven over at PPF before.

So one last question on this then...

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How many times did Jesus say it's the one that endures till the end that is saved?

Tell me, how does the believer endure to the end? What gives the believer the ability to endure? (sorry that's two!)
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« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2012, 09:25:45 am »

1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 

Hbr 10:10   By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. 


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« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2012, 06:28:06 am »

21   Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 
22   For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 
23   But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 
24   Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25   For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 
26   But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 
27   For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 
28   Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 
29   But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 
30   Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 
31   So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Galatians 4:21-31 (KJB)
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« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2012, 09:48:42 am »

21   Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 
22   For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 
23   But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 
24   Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25   For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 
26   But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 
27   For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 
28   Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 
29   But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 
30   Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 
31   So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Galatians 4:21-31 (KJB)


The modern-day church(and their pastors) have this misperception that Christians and Muslims worship the same God b/c they think Islam came about during Ishmael's time. As the facts show, Islam didn't come about until around 600 AD.

Anyhow, either way, the modern-day church and their pastors really need to read and meditate on this passage to see the true facts.
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« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2012, 05:48:36 am »

The modern-day church(and their pastors) have this misperception that Christians and Muslims worship the same God b/c they think Islam came about during Ishmael's time. As the facts show, Islam didn't come about until around 600 AD.

Talk about total lack of knowledge! If a modern pastor told me that Islam and Christians worship the same God i would think that they are delusional.

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« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2012, 07:16:24 am »

Talk about total lack of knowledge! If a modern pastor told me that Islam and Christians worship the same God i would think that they are delusional.



Guess what - at seminaries today, they offer Masters Degrees in Islamic Studies. This has got to be a joke, right?

While they're at it, why not Degree opportunities in Buddhist Studies, Hindu Studies, Mormonism Studies, or even Freemasonry Studies for that matter too. Angry
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« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2012, 01:54:26 pm »

I hear ya. We definately are not on the same page. I had forgotten how far off your understanding is.

THAT is your problem. You, like others that are of the "works" doctrine, think salvation is conditional. There is no "IF". It's not conditional beyond belief, it's free. Just believe.

According to the scriptures there is a need for both and THAT is what I'm saying. You really can't have one without the other and that was the point James, Jesus and others were making. That in itself is or should be a flag to those believing only. Lets consider some scriptures that refute the notion of belief alone.

And don't be offended by me quoting scriptures and I'm going to direct them at anyone here. It's not an argument I seek but a logical discussion.

The problem is in, my humble opinion, is that your understanding from the bible is based in a tradition of predetermination. That in itself is a discussion alone. A lot of what you talk about goes back to some statements you've made in the general realm of "they never were saved to begin with".

The thing I'd like you and others of the same belief mechanisms to understand is that the scriptures I'm sharing with you in no way suggest that you can gain salvation through works alone. In other words, I'm not telling you that you are incorrect in believing it takes faith, just that it takes more then faith alone according to Jesus to be able to take advantage OF the free gift.

The problem with that is many scriptures show other wise but this doesn't seem to phase people believing tradition so in that way it doesn't really matter to those deeply indoctrinated, skipping over dependencies is common to them, in fact they have to.

For example, we are all familiar with Matthew 7:21-23 --

23 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"

23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

The interpretation of this passage hinges not on the expression, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,'" but on the expression, "He who does the will of My Father."

He that does the will of My Father... We can't over look that scripture because our personally imposed belief system, Yet... that is exactly what faith alone is teaching. That all you need is to have faith and believe - but is that what Jesus says here? No it's not, it's saying you have to DO something. Faith lone will say "thats not what it means" - yet that is exactly what it says.

So according to this scripture not all those who consider Jesus to be lord will enter into the kingdom but rather those doing the will of the Father.

Fortunately, Jesus told is exactly what the will of his Father was and is. Jesus is talking to those failing to recognize that in Matthew 7:21-23.

Then Jesus ups the ante by saying you must do as he says in order to be his. In Matt 7:24 -27 it's a matter of whether you hear them and DO them not faith alone.

Matt 12:37 -  For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.. By actions and words a person is Justified and condemned.


Another example which is glossed over. Jesus said Heb 10:26 -  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Jesus was talking to the Apostles when he said this. If there was any truth to those that say "I'm protected from sinning" they would be lying to themselves because here Jesus says to his own apostles it can happen and decrees the outcome of such an event. If the reverse were true would not have the apostles said but master you said just believe?

Even the most simple scriptures expose the lie that is "believe only."

Romans 13:11 - And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

If once a person has believed that he is thereafter completely saved, why did Paul write, “for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers”?

Matthew 10:22 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Luke 8:13 - They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Jesus said they believed for a while and then fell away. You can't say they never truly believed - Jesus said they did for a time and then fell away. We not only see that one can fall away but we see that sins, temptations, worldly concerns, efforts to over come the world and it's snares and cares are all a part ones justification and salvation. Which is again why Jesus said you have to endure till the end or you would end up like those in Luke, Matthew and Mark. (the same parable is in all 3).

Luke 8:21 -  And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Not based on whether or not they believe but rather hearing the word and doing it.

Matthew 16:27 -  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

He will render judgment to man based on works...


Acts 20:29, 30 -  For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

So here we have a saved baptized congregation being warned that some of them would fall away, turn against the others and mislead them by speaking twisted scriptures. Obviously you can lose it. And the first congregations knew this is how false religion would be started, from those falling away after knowing the truth.


Matt. 24:12-13 - And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Not believing or the moment you believe, but enduring doing God's will till the end and THEN you are saved.

Mark 13:13 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Heb. 3:14 -  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Paul himself under the inspiration of Jesus wrote many times of us running a race and the endurance it would take of all Christians. Why? What would be the point of ANY of these scriptures if you were saved from the moment of belief? They wouldn't even make sense.

Romans 8:17 - If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.

“Provided we suffer together”—what does that mean? In order to receive the crown of life, anointed Christians must endure, faithful even to death. Revelation 2:10 -  Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


James 1:12 - Happy is the man that keeps on enduring trial, because on becoming approved he will receive the crown of life.


These are far from being the only scriptures on this subject.

So then is anything more than faith needed in order to gain salvation?

James told us Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. Did he mean that faith wasn't necessary? Of course not. We know this because without faith nothing is possible and works are useless. Eph. 2:8, 9.

And we also know that Jesus said in Heb. 5:9 - And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So what then? Surely the Bible can't conflict? And it doesn't, the point is that you have to have both which is exactly why it (the Bible) produces both sides of the argument, so you can understand that BOTH are required. Professed faith that lacks works is not going to save us. True, we cannot earn a righteous standing with God by works of the Law. (Romans 4:2-5) James is talking about works motivated, NOT by a law code, but by faith and love.

James 2:22 - You behold that [his] faith worked along with his works and by [his] works [his] faith was perfected.

Example:

James 2: - YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner was not also Ra′hab the harlot declared righteous by works...


Remember in Matthew 16:27 -  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works?



These are the works that Jesus, Paul, James,Luke etc.. are talking about.


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The "ransom" has already been paid.

And yes, we are done with this conversation, seeing you've managed to stir this whole topic up, again, and

Yes the ransom has already been paid, IF, as the rest of the scriptures bring out you follow what Jesus told you to do, the ransom can be used by you, if you don't, as Hebrews clearly brings out above, "there is no ransom for you." I think that sentence is pretty clean don't you? Why would Jesus even say something like that if it wasn't true? The Ransom gives you the opportunity to take advantage of it but only if you do as he says.

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I now remember why I had issue with you posting here in the first place.


Kililka, if you run this forum and want to boot me - I don't have an issue with it, but don't ask me to betray my beliefs because they do not conform to yours. I personally don't have issue with your beliefs, it's not me you should be concerned with.

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Maybe we should rectify that because I'm thinking that your postion is contrary to what we believe here, as it has been proven over at PPF before.

So one last question on this then...

Tell me, how does the believer endure to the end?

We will be tested just as Jesus said. Our Faith, our lives, our spirituality. Enduring till the end means, in part, enduring persecution till the end of this system of things.  Endurance, then, enables us to stand our ground and not lose hope in the face of obstacles or hardships.

Romans 5:3-5 -  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

It looks beyond the present pain to the goal—the prize, or gift, of eternal life, whether in heaven or on earth.

—James 1:12 -- Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

As Christians, all of us “have need of endurance.” Hebrews 10:36 -  For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

The word used for patience is the same word for endurance. The KJV goes back and forth on that translation, which isn't a concern because it means the same thing in the way it's being used, but what is interesting about this scripture is that it says "If you have done the will of God you MIGHT receive the promise" . Two things here you need to notice - A. You have to do something, Gods will. B. If you do you MIGHT receive the promise.


One way Kilika is, a person does so is through the examples of endurance recorded in Gods Word, the Bible - Romans 15:4 - For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.

By doing God's will even under persecution as Job, Jesus, if you think your test will be any less you are mistaken.

Bottom line is you'll have to endure persecution in this system of things, and be found doing exactly what Jesus told you to do at the time of his arrival (parable of the talents) or as Jesus has said there is no salvation for you.

Question is now for someone that really wants to do God's will to find out what that really is. Which I see you have a thread on already.

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What gives the believer the ability to endure? (sorry that's two!)

God, Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 10:13 - No temptation has taken YOU except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let YOU be tempted beyond what YOU can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for YOU to be able to endure it.


« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 01:58:30 pm by Charrington » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2012, 01:56:13 pm »

1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 

Hbr 10:10   By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. 




You're missing the point. No one is saying he has to die more then once nor did he.
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