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Can you lose your salvation?

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There are currently 78 large wildfires burning in eight western states, including Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Washington and California.

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Author Topic: Can you lose your salvation?  (Read 1765 times)
Kilika
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« Reply #60 on: May 17, 2012, 04:39:40 pm »

Thank you for a respectful, concise explanation of how you see it. But as I said, this reminds of our differences about salvation and also what bible to use. Your quoting from another book and that book has changed words.

That said, I think your having isssue with understanding word use. You are interpreting the word "might", as in "maybe" or "could be", which is an interpretation of doubt, and incorrect. The word "might" in that verse means the same as saying "will receive". It's not a conditional meaning at all, but rather a statment of fact. A commandment. A promise.

If you "endure" to the end, that isn't saying you might not make it, but it's saying the process. A statment of fact, as in how it works. Again, it's not a conditional statment like you think it is. Yes, we have tribulation while in the flesh, but that's because of the flawed sinful nature of the flesh. Paul describes that battle between flesh and Spirit.

To endure, to have patience, to have longsuffering, the only way one can do that is by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the believer, to become a son of God.

The ability comes from the Spirit, not the believer's own ability. God gives the increase.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16 (KJB)

If it were conditional, then what have we received freely that we are to freely give? The truth, the Word of God.

"Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Matthew 10:8 (KJB)

It's free. For who will believe.

And as I have said before, "works" are a by-product of faith.

If you have faith in Jesus, you WILL have the works, because it is the Spirit that is guiding you to do "good works". BUT, you cannot go out and do good works of your own accord. It doesn't work that way! That's a doctrine of "works" and is what churchianity teaches.

Notice the word "patience".

"Say not thou, I will recompense evil; [but] wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee." Proverbs 20:22 (KJB)

1   If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 
2   Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 
3   For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 
Colossians 3:1-3 (KJB)
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« Reply #61 on: May 17, 2012, 06:25:33 pm »

It boils down to the basics, do you have more  faith in the Christ Jesus blood atonement than your sins? If yes.....Love is the truest fruit to tell if you are saved. Do Love? Love God? yes.....Love yourself?....yes Love your neighbor?.....yes Love your enemies who lie on you and persecute you?.....that's a hard one , but yes I pray for their salvation and treat them with respect. You must be a good tree. If you love and trust Christ...you have already crossed over to the other side.
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« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2012, 11:32:37 pm »

Thank you for a respectful, concise explanation of how you see it. But as I said, this reminds of our differences about salvation and also what bible to use. Your quoting from another book and that book has changed words.

That said, I think your having isssue with understanding word use. You are interpreting the word "might", as in "maybe" or "could be", which is an interpretation of doubt, and incorrect. The word "might" in that verse means the same as saying "will receive". It's not a conditional meaning at all, but rather a statment of fact. A commandment. A promise.

If you "endure" to the end, that isn't saying you might not make it, but it's saying the process. A statment of fact, as in how it works. Again, it's not a conditional statment like you think it is. Yes, we have tribulation while in the flesh, but that's because of the flawed sinful nature of the flesh. Paul describes that battle between flesh and Spirit.

To endure, to have patience, to have longsuffering, the only way one can do that is by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the believer, to become a son of God.

The ability comes from the Spirit, not the believer's own ability. God gives the increase.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16 (KJB)

If it were conditional, then what have we received freely that we are to freely give? The truth, the Word of God.

"Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Matthew 10:8 (KJB)

It's free. For who will believe.

And as I have said before, "works" are a by-product of faith.

If you have faith in Jesus, you WILL have the works, because it is the Spirit that is guiding you to do "good works". BUT, you cannot go out and do good works of your own accord. It doesn't work that way! That's a doctrine of "works" and is what churchianity teaches.

Notice the word "patience".

"Say not thou, I will recompense evil; [but] wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee." Proverbs 20:22 (KJB)

1   If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 
2   Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 
3   For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 
Colossians 3:1-3 (KJB)


Thank you for being honestly respectful in return - I really appreciate that. It give me a great deal of respect for those trying to be Christians as you have just shown. Thank you.

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And as I have said before, "works" are a by-product of faith.
This statement is so true and is basically what I am saying in that respect.


Just for reference sake - take a look at this scripture and let me have your thoughts on it.

2 Peter 2:20-21

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Doesn't this suggest to you that even those having come to the knowledge and belief in Jesus can become entangled again and it would be better off for them to have NOT known the way of righteousness to begin with?

respectfully,
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Christian40
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« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2012, 12:42:30 am »

Just for reference sake - take a look at this scripture and let me have your thoughts on it.

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2 Peter 2:20-21 King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Doesn't this suggest to you that even those having come to the knowledge and belief in Jesus can become entangled again and it would be better off for them to have NOT known the way of righteousness to begin with?

respectfully,

taking the mark of the beast in the tribulation perhaps? or the latter end is worse means that there will be punishment from God in this life or at the judgment seat.
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Kilika
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« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2012, 04:02:30 am »

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Just for reference sake - take a look at this scripture and let me have your thoughts on it.

2 Peter 2:20-21

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Doesn't this suggest to you that even those having come to the knowledge and belief in Jesus can become entangled again and it would be better off for them to have NOT known the way of righteousness to begin with?

respectfully,

Your welcome.  Wink

Okay, God willing, how I describe this will make sense, but it is the same really as I've said, it's a statement of fact, in the sense that it lays down what can and cannot de done (to know and then turn), and it gives the reason why too (the latter end is worse).

So I see that as a statement of fact, not a warning in a direct sense, if that makes sense.

Yes, a person can get entangled, just as scripture says. HOWEVER, you perceive that entanglement would cost the person their salvation, but it says nothing of the sort actually. All it says is that it would be better, as in if the person hadn't got entangled they wouldn't have as much tribulation and chastisement.

What parent doesn't go after their child that wanders off? Does that wandering off and putting their hands where they don't belong mean they are no longer their child? Nope. It means that believer is still in the flesh, not having been "changed" into spiritual yet. It might mean though that child will get scolded and "spanked" for acting up, but they are still a son of God, forever.

If it were possible, it would be better, but it's not possible for it to be any better! This is as good as it gets, while in the flesh. So in my opinion, it would never be better for them to not know.

Everybody WILL know the way of righteousness.
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« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2012, 10:03:49 am »

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Doesn't this suggest to you that even those having come to the knowledge and belief in Jesus can become entangled again and it would be better off for them to have NOT known the way of righteousness to begin with?


Wow! Just noticed the parallels between that and this.

Lk 11:21  When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22  But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
23  He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
24  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25  And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26   Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


One of the selling points that ES use to get a man to agree with them is “It’s a dangerous world out there, you need protection".  This operates the same as the mafia. Another selling point is “Bow down to me and I’ll give you the world".

Once access is gained, any remnant armor of God, (truth, righteousness, salvation, faith, and word of God) would be dismantled within that person. This I see as unpardonable. I believe some who walk the earth have intentionally chosen that for worldly gain. Since God is fair, these people would KNOW what they are forfeiting prior to making this choice.

On the other hand, and more commonly, if a man is deceived by the temporary god of this world and has never really fully known the true living God, then the flimsy or fake armor within, whether his own or as provided by ES, gets dismantled. Once that happens, it becomes critical to replace that defense with God’s armor to fill an empty house. This man now must trust Christ and His Holy Spirit to be the guardian of his soul against wicked spiritual forces greater than himself.

So what is the status of a man? Only God knows the intricate details of that man’s life, thoughts, and heart.

I believe the stakes are very high right now with evil moving from the covert to the overt. Institutions and constructs of man are becoming the enemy’s messengers.
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Kilika
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« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2012, 04:57:14 pm »

verse 18 makes it clear. Salvation cannot be lost. Jesus won't allow it to happen because He promised He wouldn't.

7   And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass? 
8   And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 
9   But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end [is] not by and by. 
10   Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 
11   And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 
12   But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 
13   And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 
14   Settle [it] therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 
15   For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16   And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death. 
17   And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake. 
18   But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 
19   In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luke 21:16-19 (KJB)
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« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2012, 12:41:11 am »

Hmm this is interesting all the comments they are just great but let me come to the conclusion, what I think about your question "Can you loose your salvation ?" yes and no it depends on the individual we are talking about. It is clear that if a person turns back to the old mind, loving this world and enjoying their lusts, then they lose their salvation. Such a mind does not fit into the kingdom of heaven. However, if they truly repent and turn back to God, they can regain their salvation.
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« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2012, 04:24:28 am »

Jesus was sacrificed only once, one cant lose their salvation and then regain it again because Jesus would have to be re-crucified which is never going to happen. So a real Christian cant lose their salvation though they can get involved in sins and live worldly, a child can get into alot of trouble.
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« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2012, 07:27:58 am »

Hmm this is interesting all the comments they are just great but let me come to the conclusion, what I think about your question "Can you loose your salvation ?" yes and no it depends on the individual we are talking about. It is clear that if a person turns back to the old mind, loving this world and enjoying their lusts, then they lose their salvation. Such a mind does not fit into the kingdom of heaven. However, if they truly repent and turn back to God, they can regain their salvation.

Heb 12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.


1John 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
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« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2013, 12:33:22 am »

bump

NO

 Smiley Grin
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Kilika
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« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2013, 04:22:44 am »

Yea and Amen
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« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2013, 05:47:33 pm »

i know i was one who originally started thiis thread, but i have to say as i have been studying the bible lately i'm starting to back away from the notion that you can "lose yoour salvattion" however i am not completely convinced yet. need to study it more completely, buut the more i look into thhe word of God it pointss to an enteral security and eteral salvation as it says.
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« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2013, 08:31:42 pm »

i know i was one who originally started thiis thread, but i have to say as i have been studying the bible lately i'm starting to back away from the notion that you can "lose yoour salvattion" however i am not completely convinced yet. need to study it more completely, buut the more i look into thhe word of God it pointss to an enteral security and eteral salvation as it says.

Eternal security is the word - to be frank, I was never a fan of the "once saved, always saved" term, as it just sounded too politically correct. It's as if maybe the enemy came in to twist things just a tad bit. Of course, they did the same with alot of these modern-day bible versions(where they would slightly twist words from the KJV subtlely).

Bottom line - when we get saved, we are sons of God(little "s", that is). Would our own parents come down harshly on us if we do wrong? Definitely yes(although the punishments would varry all over the place). But would they forsake and disown us? Definitely NOT!(When Jesus Christ says to honour our parents, he meant it 100%)

So yes, we have eternal security b/c we cannot lose our salvation.

Luke 11:9  And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luk 11:10  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Luk 11:11  If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Luk 11:12  Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
Luk 11:13  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

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« Reply #74 on: April 15, 2013, 10:42:43 am »

Here are a couple of more verses proving you can't lose your salvation... Smiley

Mat_9:17  Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Luk_5:38  But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
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Kilika
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« Reply #75 on: April 15, 2013, 04:42:05 pm »

Amen!
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« Reply #76 on: April 21, 2013, 12:38:59 am »

This sermon was recommended to me, i have not heard it yet

Some Can Lose It

Pastor Dr David Peacock

Revelation 12

http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/43132032265/43132032265.mp3
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« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2013, 04:06:31 am »

(He claims pre-trib.)

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"...now if you're new to this, you cannot lose your salvation once your saved, and I don't care what anybody has to say about it, but I have to bring that up today because where we're going today is to show you the bible clearly teaches some people can lose their salvation. You can't duck that..."

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"Alright, well if you go through the tribulation, then you have the chance to lose your salvation. If you go through the tribulation, you lose your salvation by grace through faith, and not of works, because in the tribulation period you have to have salvation plus you have to be saved also by keeping the commandments. What commandment do you have to keep to be saved?...14:12...Here's the patience of the saints. Here are they that, one, keep the commandments of God, and two, the faith in Jesus. Do you see that? Is that what it says? It's two parts. No where do you find that same thing written to you anywhere in the Pauline epistles, Not one place...  "

Boy is that subtle! That's true and false at the same time, sort of. Yes, it is there, but not worded the way he's saying it.

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"Revelation 7:14...and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. We're saved through the blood. And we're washed, not our robes are washed. You wanna make sure you get that. These are people that right here in this passage that wind up having their robes washed because of the works that they do...Revelation 20...verse 12, here's The Great White Throne judgement, right, now it's not the judgement seat of Christ, right? Are you with me, verse 12...according to their works..."

Subtle indeed! So this guy is saying there are two different judgement seats? Jesus tells me there is "One Lord, one faith, one baptism..."

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJB)

I've heard enough.

"Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees." Matthew 16:6 (KJB)
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« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2014, 05:58:00 am »

Romans 8 "1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.... 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.....38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
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« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2014, 09:05:56 am »

Romans 8 "1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.... 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.....38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

+1
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« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2014, 07:50:53 am »

Romans 8 "1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.... 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.....38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

That`s a beautiful passage of scripture. The passage does list a condition that is required to obtain all the promises. It says that you have to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. This is the basic issue that those who argue against OSAS run with.
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« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2014, 08:23:28 am »

That`s a beautiful passage of scripture. The passage does list a condition that is required to obtain all the promises. It says that you have to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. This is the basic issue that those who argue against OSAS run with.

1Corinthians 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
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« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2014, 05:38:37 pm »

1Corinthians 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Let`s add the 3 preceding verses to the mix.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


In Paul`s analogy he is talking about the work of building on the foundation of Jesus. This is a principle that is applicable to everything that is done in the name of Jesus and for the kingdom of God.You see in the analogy that all works that are not pure burn up (i.e. wrong doctine, bad motives etc).

This is not a principle that is appplicable to works of the flesh which are your sins. The Bible says that when your sins are forgiven and covered by the blood of Jesus, that God forgets them, blots them out, removes them as far as the east is from the west.

The Holy Spirit is always jealous and able to wash you clean and when you go before Christ, He will not confront you for the sins that He died to save you from.

But the works you have done in His name and for His kingdom. These are the works that must be tried in the fire. That`s why truth is important. Truth is gold and silver that will not burn up in the fire.

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