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The "Pre-Trib" Rapture exposed!

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« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2011, 07:58:12 am »

The letters are also talking about church ages. I believe the words are used properly. In all the rapture verses the people are going up, in all the second comings the people are coming down. Big differences.
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« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2011, 01:42:15 am »

For the record(and for the 1000th time), I'm post-trib. However, Darby did NOT get this pre-trib views from Margaret Macdonald. Here's why-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Macdonald_%28Prophecy%29

There have been a couple of attempts to locate a “source” for Darby's concept of the rapture. These attempts imply that Darby's concepts originated from a "false" (i.e. demonic) source. Samuel Tragelles alleged that John Nelson Darby's concept of the rapture was taken from one of the charismatic utterances in Edward Irving's church. Since Tregelles regarded the utterances as “pretending to be from God,” his implication is that Darby's rapture is from a demonic source. Dave MacPherson[1] built upon Tregelles' accusation, and claimed the source for Darby's rapture was from an utterance of Margaret MacDonald.[5] However, scholars think there are major obstacles that render these accusations untenable. It is clear that Darby regarded the 1830 charismatic manifestations as demonic and not of God [4]. Darby would not have borrowed an idea from a source he clearly thought was demonic [6]. Also Darby had already written out his pretribulation rapture views in January 1827, 3 years prior to the 1830 events and any MacDonald utterance [7]. When MacDonald's utterance is read closely, her statements show her to hold a posttribulationist position (“being the fiery trial which is to try us” and “for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus”)[8][9]. For these and other reasons, scholars consider MacPherson's alleged connection to dispensationalism as untenable[10].

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While I agree with MacPherson's position, let's be objective here - Dave P wasn't being a good Borean when he didn't look into carefully whether or not Darby got his ideas from this demonic source(MacDonald).

Also, not to be picky here, but why is an evangelist like MacPherson being trumpeted as the FIRST person to cross the gates of DISNEYLAND in 1955? I dunno, but someone taking pride in yoking with something as demonic like Disney sounds like a hypocrite to me.

Go to the bottom of the page.
http://www.zimbio.com/Christian+Life/articles/6eZf646-gfG/Dave+MacPherson+Finds+Note+Rapture+Vision

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« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2011, 01:49:14 am »

Just one note, my opinion that is, on my last post above - IMHO, I think the NWO could be fueling some kind of Hegelian Dialect to confuse everyone by having alot of these pseudo-Christians debating to death both sides of the issues. For quite a while, both Todd Strandberg of that popular Rapture Ready MB(this side is full of doctrinal error, but I will discuss this in its respective thread) and Dave McPherson seems to have gone at each other over both sides of the issue for who knows how long. Strandberg writes an error-filled blog debunking McPherson, and then McPherson writes an"Open Letter to Todd Strandberg" rebuttal, acting like he's the victim in all of this. And next thing we know the only pre-trib/post-trib people that get debunked are the pseudo-mainstream people like Hal Lindsey and John Hagee, both of whom are in major doctrinal error to begin with.
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« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2011, 02:05:29 am »

http://www.hissheep.org/special/pretribulation_rapture_taught_by_early_church.html
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Dave McPherson, in The Incredible Rapture Coverup, suggests that John Darby first came up with the teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture in 1820. He claimed that Darby’s view came from Margaret MacDonald, a Scottish girl who supposedly had fallen into a trance and had a vision. The truth is that Margaret MacDonald said her vision reveal a mid-tribulation rapture of only the most holy! John Darby had preached his view of the pre-tribulation rapture long before Margaret had her so-called vision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-tribulation_rapture
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The rise in belief in the "pre-Tribulation" Rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision of the end times which describes a post-Tribulation view of the Rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861, but two important passages demonstrating a post-Tribulation view were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the Rapture. The two removed segments were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept".[41]

Hey Dok and anyone else, can you confirm this?
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« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2011, 02:19:36 am »

FYI - here's an email I got from Pastor John Weaver when I asked him last year of what his escatology beliefs are.

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First, I would highly recommend that you get the book Last Days Madness by Gary DeMar.  It can be purchased from American Vision.  Just google it and it will come up.  It is an excellent book and will answer many questions.   Moreover, they have other wonderful materials there that would make good additions to any library.
 
I would lean more to the historical perspective on Daniel and Revelation.  You must remember that there are only 4 main views concerning eschatology.  First there is the post mill position which is the most historical position.  Second there is a historic pre-trip position (which did not include a rapture, etc), Spurgeon held this position and there is the Amill position that began in the 4th century under Augustine.  The dispensational pre-mill, rapture, 7 year trib view did not begin until the 1800's.  It has been reported that Margaret McDonald, a self styled prophetess, while speaking in tongues, came to this view and supposedly taught it to John Nelson Darby who taught it to Schofield who placed the view in his bible and hence you have the predominant view which is a johhny-come-lately to eschatology.  Ovid Need has an excellent book called The Death of the Church Victorious which will give you the complete history and details.  Another book was titled The Unbelievable Origin of the Pre-Trib Rapture Theory which gave much of the info.  The title has been changed to The Rapture Hoax or Plot.  American Vision will give you more info than you can digest!  Visit their store at http://www.americanvision.com/.
 
There is so much more involved in your questions.  You must know Who Israel is.  Listen to the 6 messages that I have on sermonaudio.com/weaver on Who is Israel.  All of this and much more is involved in eschatology.  There are many applications that can be made from books and prophecies that have been fulfilled.  I am sure that there are many today as well.  I urge you to get DeMar's book and read it several times and you will probably understand more than most preachers on the subject.  Pastor Weaver

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Don't get me wrong - I think Pastor Weaver preaches very sound sermons(and he's KJV-only, and also has exposed the 501c3 scam), however, while he didn't admit it directly, he sounds like he's a Preterist. He too seems to have bought hook, line, and sinker that Margaret MacDonald was the root source of this pre-trib rapture theory. And listening to a couple of his parts on "Who is Israel", he pretty much sounded like the Christian church replaces Israel in the latter days.
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« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2011, 04:00:09 am »


Here is Margaret Macdonald's revelation, http://www.bibleprophesy.org/vision.htm

For starters look at  where its from. Catholics. second she does not give a pre trib rapture. People mostly on the internet say that. Shes not found in books on the rapture. Because well she didnt come up with it and didnt teach it.

The pre trib is found in the pages of the Bible, its always been there.

Other info about this, http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html
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« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2011, 04:09:34 am »

FYI - here's an email I got from Pastor John Weaver when I asked him last year of what his escatology beliefs are.



Don't get me wrong - I think Pastor Weaver preaches very sound sermons(and he's KJV-only, and also has exposed the 501c3 scam), however, while he didn't admit it directly, he sounds like he's a Preterist. He too seems to have bought hook, line, and sinker that Margaret MacDonald was the root source of this pre-trib rapture theory. And listening to a couple of his parts on "Who is Israel", he pretty much sounded like the Christian church replaces Israel in the latter days.

You ah, got that right. I don't know who he is, but he doesn't seem to knowledgeable about the subject. Seriously, 10 min in a library or 2 min in the internet will squash this whole Macdonald thing. But the thing is, people want to believe what they are told. AJ cannot push a pre trib rapture, as that will cut into the sales of his books and dvds and listeners. Not that i believe that that would happen but i can see that in why he does what he does.

Ans please always remeber it was the Popes them selves that came out in the 400's and proclaimed a no pre trib rapture. Heck just on that account, makes the pre trib real.
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« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2011, 06:20:13 am »

People tell me that if there is a Pre-Trib Rapture then Jesus will have to come again for a third time. How would you answer that? I do think the Pre-trib rapture is right in many ways, but a Post-trib rapture can seem logical to some people.
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« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2011, 06:55:34 am »

People tell me that if there is a Pre-Trib Rapture then Jesus will have to come again for a third time. How would you answer that? I do think the Pre-trib rapture is right in many ways, but a Post-trib rapture can seem logical to some people.

The second coming is when Jesus actually comes down, on a horse and touches the Earth. He comes with the raptured saints, already in heaven. How did they get there? There is only 1 second coming, the Rapture is us going to him, not him coming to us.
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« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2011, 08:51:10 am »

You ah, got that right. I don't know who he is, but he doesn't seem to knowledgeable about the subject. Seriously, 10 min in a library or 2 min in the internet will squash this whole Macdonald thing. But the thing is, people want to believe what they are told. AJ cannot push a pre trib rapture, as that will cut into the sales of his books and dvds and listeners. Not that i believe that that would happen but i can see that in why he does what he does.

Ans please always remeber it was the Popes them selves that came out in the 400's and proclaimed a no pre trib rapture. Heck just on that account, makes the pre trib real.

Pastor Weaver is one of the pastors Scott recommends, and I believe is a good friend of Scott b/c Weaver's from Georgia, and Weaver will occasionally come to FL for hurricane preparedness meetings, where he crosses paths with Scott, Pastor Sam Adams, Mike Slattery, Derek Dreamer, etc.

Again, I agree with Scott that Weaver DOES give some EXCELLENT preachings(you can find them on sermon audio.com), and he does so out of the good 'ole Authorized Version. However, like I said too, for someone like Weaver who has been a preacher in the KJV for many, many years, I am shocked that his escatology beliefs lean the way of Gary DeMar's. No, I don't think Weaver is a heretic at all, but again, I was surprised he recommended stuff to me from Preterists that have been debunked many times.

Also, you can find on youtube Weaver exposing the 501c3 bondage.
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« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2011, 08:54:25 am »

Just to clarify(again) - I am firmly in the post-trib position. However, I am very disappointed by the likes of Dave McPherson b/c they back up their research with some major errors(ie-the Margaret MacDonald thing getting wrong).

Also, I've yet to hear Dave McPherson's testimony over how he came to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour.
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« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2011, 10:42:49 am »

The second coming is when Jesus actually comes down, on a horse and touches the Earth. He comes with the raptured saints, already in heaven. How did they get there? There is only 1 second coming, the Rapture is us going to him, not him coming to us.

Just trying to understand this, Dok, as I am post-trib as well.  This seems a very relaxed discussion so that all can understand where the other is truly coming from.  So, there is only one rapture and one second coming?  The pre-trib rapture is the only one?  Will no one rise up to Christ at His second coming?  Or are there no saints on the earth at that time?  Are there only Jews and if so, if they come to the Lord, do they just remain on the earth and await the Millennium?  I do try to understand and I know there are some that state that Jesus comes twice, once in the air (which is considered the rapture) and again with the raptured saints, actually touching the earth for Armageddon. One is a secret coming and the other is the visible appearance where 'every eye shall see'.

And please, I mean no disrespect.  I'm all for a pre-trib rapture if it's true, but have no problem if there isn't one.  My reading never led me to this conclusion, so I do need to understand how others read it and came to another conclusion.  I've never belonged to any congregation and so was never taught any one particular doctrine.  I have, however attended sessions from many different denominations, but as we all know, no one really teaches end times, or at least not when I was young, and yes, that was a long time ago.  lol. Wink  These were visits with other families as I've never truly belonged or gone to any church.  I've read the bible on my own over these long years.
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« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2011, 11:12:11 am »

Just trying to understand this, Dok, as I am post-trib as well.  This seems a very relaxed discussion so that all can understand where the other is truly coming from.  So, there is only one rapture and one second coming? 

That is my understanding, 1 of each.

The pre-trib rapture is the only one?  Will no one rise up to Christ at His second coming? 

yep, and nope.

 Or are there no saints on the earth at that time? 

Where do you get that from?

Are there only Jews

Where do you get that from?

and if so, if they come to the Lord, do they just remain on the earth and await the Millennium? 

yep, along with every one else.

 I do try to understand and I know there are some that state that Jesus comes twice, once in the air (which is considered the rapture) and again with the raptured saints, actually touching the earth for Armageddon. One is a secret coming and the other is the visible appearance where 'every eye shall see'.


I have never understood this "secret" rapture. Every ones going to know about it, you wont be able to miss it.

And please, I mean no disrespect.  I'm all for a pre-trib rapture if it's true, but have no problem if there isn't one.  My reading never led me to this conclusion, so I do need to understand how others read it and came to another conclusion.  I've never belonged to any congregation and so was never taught any one particular doctrine.  I have, however attended sessions from many different denominations, but as we all know, no one really teaches end times, or at least not when I was young, and yes, that was a long time ago.  lol. Wink  These were visits with other families as I've never truly belonged or gone to any church.  I've read the bible on my own over these long years.

When i read the Bible i read a rapture. In fact i cant see how some things can come about with out a rapture. At the rapture we go to Jesus, at hs second coming we are coming back with him, on horses. You see people tend to forget the horse's.
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« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2011, 11:42:11 am »

Not sure if it's mentioned here yet, but supposedly, the New Age movement leaders et al are anticipating mass disappearances shortly after their "world teacher"(ie-maitreya) emerges. David Bayes(end times watchman) of cuttingedge.org attended a Theosophy meeting years ago, and a high level occult leader talked about how they have already prepared an "explanation" to all these "disappearances".

Are you also familiar with Steve Jackson's INWO card game? Apparently, there's a "rapture" card in there that ends up kicking off the NWO's "utopia on earth".(I believe David Icke put this card right after the 'Messiah' card)

The reason being b/c according to them, they can't have "unity" on earth until these "resisters" et al are gone.

Do I take anything the New Age/occult movement says at face value? No - however, not that I think this lines up with the bible, but this is what THEY'RE saying.

With that being said, whether there's a pre or post trib rapture, no, I don't agree with the John MacArthur view that the entire earth will be in peace and prosperity and then the rapture happens which will cause utter chaos leading to the antichrist and OWG. So no, it's not like we'll be drinking coffee and relaxing at some coffee shop until the big event happens, b/c I DO feel we will all go through some rough times before the Lord comes for us.
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« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2011, 12:13:32 pm »

b/c I DO feel we will all go through some rough times before the Lord comes for us.

Well that is what the Bible teaches.

Matt 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

 Matt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 Matt 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.



So as you can clearly see we will go through a time of trial. BUT! Are we reserved for the wrath of God? I dont think so, i dont think Jeus is going to beat up his bride.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

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« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2011, 12:19:41 pm »

When i read the Bible i read a rapture. In fact i cant see how some things can come about with out a rapture. At the rapture we go to Jesus, at hs second coming we are coming back with him, on horses. You see people tend to forget the horse's.

As to 'there being no Saints' and 'that there are only Jews', I have seen this around the net of the pre-trib belief.  They call it 'Jacob's Trouble', which seems to mean that the Tribulation is only for saving the souls of Jews, that the church, the Saints, are gone.  Correct me if I have misinterpreted this information.
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« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2011, 12:25:26 pm »

As to 'there being no Saints' and 'that there are only Jews', I have seen this around the net of the pre-trib belief.  They call it 'Jacob's Trouble', which seems to mean that the Tribulation is only for saving the souls of Jews, that the church, the Saints, are gone.  Correct me if I have misinterpreted this information.

Only the church is Raptured. Every one else is left. Will there be saints and jews saved after the rapture? sure. But i dont understand how there would be only jews or no saints. ya lost me there.
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« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2011, 01:15:12 pm »

Only the church is Raptured. Every one else is left. Will there be saints and jews saved after the rapture? sure. But i dont understand how there would be only jews or no saints. ya lost me there.

I'm sort of lost too, again, this is not my belief, but what I have seen discussed.  That somehow the Jews are not part of the Church.   Yes, this confuses me because we know there are Jewish believers.  I was under the impression that there is no Jew or Gentile any longer, we are all one in Jesus, but that there are believers and unbelievers.   

I see it often that the Tribulation is only for the Jews because the Church is not mentioned in parts of Revelation.  A remnant will come to believe when they see Jesus, but will remain on the earth through God's wrath, although protected, because they weren't part of the Church at the Rapture.  These are not the Jews in the 'desert' protected by 'eagles wings', believing Jews, Israel.

I'm thinking this is a wording/definition problem.  For example, who are the Saints, who are the Church.  Are unbelievers saved during the Tribulation, then considered Saints and part of the Church?  Are they ever?

I don't mean to make this difficult, truly. 
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« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2011, 01:35:59 pm »

There are no Jew and Greek any more. But its a little more complicated than just saying that. Dont knwo what that has to do with the Rapture. If you are saved before hand your raptured as part of the Bride church, wether your a jew or not. Im a Gentile, no Jewish blood at all.

Now the Trib mostly deals with Israel, and the rest of the world. Has nothing to do with the Chruch as we are not there. All the people left will go through the Trib unless they are killed. That is how we have the Trib saints. People will still be saved, and im sure you will have the greatest rivival right after the Rapture the world has ever known, but then again you will have the worst persecution ever. So much so that almost no Christian will be left alive at the return of Jesus.

Now Israel will have a remenant saved and they will have to call on Jesus to return. So as you can see there will be Jews, Trib Saints and unsaved all on the planet at the same time.

Its probably easier if we go one question at a time.  Smiley
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« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2011, 01:40:56 pm »

 Maybe we shouldnt be concerned so much as to which sign is which  but rather are we ready no matter what event takes place and when or why, my prayer to the Lord in this respect is always.."no matter when, no matter why", it doesnt matter if its before in the middle or in the end. Its all predetermined and the Lord will take those of his and cast the rest away. All we need to know is that its set in motion and to simply not be fooled or deceived and stay strong in our faith, God's plan for all of us will come to pass.
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« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2011, 02:20:30 pm »

Maybe we shouldnt be concerned so much as to which sign is which  but rather are we ready no matter what event takes place and when or why, my prayer to the Lord in this respect is always.."no matter when, no matter why", it doesnt matter if its before in the middle or in the end. Its all predetermined and the Lord will take those of his and cast the rest away. All we need to know is that its set in motion and to simply not be fooled or deceived and stay strong in our faith, God's plan for all of us will come to pass.

Amen!  Lord, give me strength, for I am a Victor through Jesus Christ and help prepare me wholly, body and spirit, for all that will come our way!

And yes, Dok, one question at a time.  But, I think you explained it well, thanks!  I'll prepare for the worst but will pray to be spared the wrath of our wonderful and justified God.
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