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Pre-trib rapture and antichrist

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Author Topic: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist  (Read 5195 times)
PeanutGallery
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« on: September 22, 2011, 02:03:40 pm »

cant go up, when your coming down, jsut dont work that way.  Cheesy and 2 thess 2:3 dosent say anythign about pre or post, only that the antichrist will be revealed before the rapture. which still fits a pre trib.

i really dont want this to be a pre-post debate. just survival info.
Interesting you mentioned antichrist will be revealed before the rapture; I've read that the antichrist would not appear until after rapture.
That changes things; some taught that the antichrist is not revealed until mid-trib.
Thanks; something to think about.


2Thess 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2011, 02:24:59 pm »

Quote
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

says it right there. The antichrist has to be revealed. We will knwo who he is, although we might now he is the antichrist he will make an apperance on the world stage. The actual TRIB starts at the signing of the 7 year treaty. In order for the antichrist to broker that he would have to rise to some sort of power before that.  Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2011, 02:59:06 pm »

God only knows if any of us will be alive when it take splace, but it's WELL within our "normal" lifetimes that we could see the Antichrist revealed. I think though that many have been conditioned to look at these things as some MAJOR event and massive wars an aliens walking the earth, and it all starts as one single big event or something, but that's not what I understand of the progression of events. It seems to be it's a progression, an escalation of severity over time. It won't get panic bad till the Antichrist breaks the peace deal 3.5 yeers into the deal. Then it gets REAL bad! All hell on earth breaks loose then.

But it's still not a single major alien landing type event. It creeps up on the blind of the world, numbing them along the way so most never see it coming. Remember that scripture says they will be saying peace and safety right before it all comes apart. The sales pitch of the world is that it's all good, everythings fine it's just a down turn, when countries are collapsing around them.
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2011, 06:04:55 pm »

says it right there. The antichrist has to be revealed. We will knwo who he is, although we might now he is the antichrist he will make an apperance on the world stage. The actual TRIB starts at the signing of the 7 year treaty. In order for the antichrist to broker that he would have to rise to some sort of power before that.  Smiley

Even though Scott strays away from this debate(and giving his own position on this), at the same time he's harped pretty hard that the antichrist has to reveal himself first(according to this passage) before the church can be raptured(whenever that will be).

This is my main gripe with the pre-trib crowd(not all, but most) - b/c for the most part they say the rapture happens before the AC gets revealed. Scripture says the AC has to reveal himself first. Now whether one wants to believe the rapture will happen soon after, at the midway point, or at the end, it's up to you.

BTW - Steve Jackson's INWO card game has just that...the 'Messiah' card where the AC reveals himself(the one where a big light shines down on a smiling albeit deceived crowd), and then the 'Rapture' card is placed right after that(and before the 'Repent' card). Even Bill Howard, a high level Theosophist, said many years ago that when the World Teacher(maitreya) makes his appearance, the group of people that do NOT fall for the world teacher will vanish, and they've already prepared an explanation for these "disappearances".

Anyhow - thought I would throw that in - it's not what some Christian preacher is saying, it's what THE ENEMY is saying. Not that I agree with them, but they seem to be pretty serious about this.
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2011, 07:50:12 pm »

its not what the enemy says its what the Word of God says. The Antichrist will be revealed, now when the treaty is signed is when the 7 years start. In order for the antichrist to broker the deal he has to rise to power first. no way around it. That is what the Bible teaches. It also teaches that you cant go up at the same time your coming down. dont work that way. So clearly you cannot have a post trib rapture if the saints are returning with Jesus. sorry...  Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2011, 07:56:04 pm »

its not what the enemy says its what the Word of God says. The Antichrist will be revealed, now when the treaty is signed is when the 7 years start. In order for the antichrist to broker the deal he has to rise to power first. no way around it. That is what the Bible teaches. It also teaches that you cant go up at the same time your coming down. dont work that way. So clearly you cannot have a post trib rapture if the saints are returning with Jesus. sorry...  Smiley

I know what you're saying, but was just pointing out what the NWO minions have been planning for a long time now(as evidenced by Steve Jackson's INWO card game).

People like Geolibertarian over on PPF have not only mocked pre-trib, but has gone as far as saying today's "church" have bought into it largely b/c of the Zionists and John Hagee. Like I said before, this is just not true, b/c it's QUITE THE OPPOSITE that's poisoned today's "church"...Preterism largely b/c of Emergent/Purpose Drive poison(which Geo has failed to see many times). A growing number of churches are buying into the lie that Revelation and Daniel happened in 70 AD, and how the church replaced Israel somehow.
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« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2011, 09:07:41 am »

I like this description:
"Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation."
http://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-tribulation.html

Besides, it can't be mid or post or we would know approximately the time...3.5 years or 7 years.
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« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2011, 09:53:36 am »

Either way, the antichrist has to be revealed first.

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« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2011, 03:27:36 pm »

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15 (KJB)
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2011, 08:09:19 am »

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15 (KJB)

world

Kosmos, Summary: In the sense of the present world-system, the ethically bad sense of the word, refers to the "order," "arrangement," under which Satan has organized the world of unbelieving mankind upon his cosmic principle of force, greed, selfishness, ambition, and pleasure. Matthew 4:8,9; John 12:31; 14:30; 18:36; Ephesians 2:2; 6:12; 1 John 2:15-17. This world- system is imposing and powerful with armies and fleets; is often outwardly religious, scientific, cultured, and elegant; but, seething with national and commercial rivalries and ambitions, is upheld in any real crisis only by armed force, and is dominated by Satanic principles.

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=013
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2011, 02:46:09 pm »

Ok, I need some brotherly help here. I am still not seeing where the ac will be revealed before the rapture.Huh
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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2011, 02:55:46 pm »

Ok, I need some brotherly help here. I am still not seeing where the ac will be revealed before the rapture.Huh

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2011, 07:58:31 am »

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Thanks, but I still don't see it. Here is what J. Vernon McGee had to say about it:

Two Departures?
I want you to notice in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 something very, very important. “Let no man
deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except….” Notice the reference to “that
day.” What day is that? It is the Day of the Lord; it is the day that the apostles asked Jesus
about. You remember that they came to the Lord Jesus when He went to the top of the Mount of
Olives and asked Him first, “When shall these things be?” (Matthew 24:3). When will there not
be left here one stone upon another? (See verse 2.) He told them that when they would see
Jerusalem compassed with armies they would know the time had come. That happened in A.D.
70. I’m of the opinion that several of the apostles were there. Perhaps they climbed up on the
battlements of the walls of Jerusalem and looked over. When they saw the standard, the eagles
of the Roman government of Titus there, I think one apostle nudged the other and said, “This is
what He was talking about. This is it! It has come to pass.” Titus destroyed Jerusalem just as the
Lord Jesus said, and not one stone was left upon another. Let me repeat what I said in another
message – it bears repeating. If you doubt that one stone was not left upon another, look at the
wailing wall in Jerusalem today. The thing that amazes me about the western wall is the kinds of
stones that are in it. There are stones from Solomon’s temple, from the temple days of Ezra and
Haggai and from every other period. One stone was not left upon another when Titus took
Jerusalem. And that prophecy was fulfilled.
They had another question: What is the sign of the end of the age? Now that is what Paul is
talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The Lord Jesus labeled the end of the age as the Great
Tribulation period. I didn’t label it. No evangelical labeled it. The Lord Jesus is the One who
labeled it the Great Tribulation period (Matthew 24:21). He said there would be nothing like it
in the history of the world.
Now let’s look at this again:
Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except
8there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of
perdition. (2 Thessalonians 2:3)
The word I’m interested in here is “the falling away first.” And when I made a study of this
word, I just had to stand up in my study and say, “Hallelujah!” What a wonderful revelation it
was to see the root meaning of the word. Now the word in Greek is apostasia and it comes from
apostasis. The root word means “departure” or “removal from.” And the verb means “to
remove, to depart, to leave.” It comes from two words: histemi, meaning “to stand,” and apo,
meaning “away from.” From this we get our word apostasy. Apostates, we understand today, are
men who held the truth at one time. They’ve stood for the truth of Scripture and now they apohistemi, they stand away from it.
That’s one meaning of the word. But that’s not all the meaning of this word. The primary
meaning is “a departure.” Paul says that day shall not come until the “falling away” or “departure.” What departure is he talking about? Well, the same departure he talked about in his first
epistle to the Thessalonians. That’s the Rapture of the church. The church is going to depart
from this earth. The Rapture is the removal of the church, the departure of the church from the
earth. Paul dwelt on that in his first epistle when he was answering their question about their
loved ones:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise
first; then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up…. (1 Thessalonians
4:16, 17)
This is an apohistemi, that’s a departure. And to me the word that Paul uses is marvelous
because it speaks of two things. It speaks of two departures, because the whole church is to apostatize:
1. The true church is to leave the earth;
2. The professing church will just move away from the truth.
The Lord Jesus said, “When the Son of man cometh, shall he find [the] faith on the earth?”
(Luke 18: eight). That is, will He find that the body of truth, the apostles’ doctrine, is still held? In
the original Greek the question is phrased in such a way that it demands a negative answer. The
professing church will have departed so far from the faith that in the seventeenth chapter of
Revelation it is called the harlot. The true church, called the Bride of Christ, has been caught up
to meet Him. That departure must come first. As we saw in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, “… that day
shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son
of perdition.” In other words, the Antichrist cannot appear until the true church departs from this
earth. Now we have this twofold meaning. Some shall depart from the faith, and some shall
depart from the earth. The departure of the true church from the earth brings in total apostasy;
so that what the Lord Jesus said about not finding faith on the earth when He comes will be fulfilled.
Now from the viewpoint of the earth, it will be a departure. From the viewpoint of heaven,
it will be a rapture; they will be caught up – apostasia. That will be the leaving, the departure,
9of the true church. I think that the world is going to say at that time, “They’re gone. They’ve
departed. They’ve left us.” And if they are ever to say, “Hallelujah,” that’s when they’ll say it.
The world will rejoice at first. Antichrist will make them believe that they’re entering the
Millennium when actually they will be entering the Tribulation. That, I think, is the big lie. The
world will think they’re bringing in the Millennium. And, my friend, haven’t you voted already
for many candidates who promised to bring peace to this world? Didn’t Woodrow Wilson promise it as far back as 1917? And hasn’t peace been the platform of many men since then? Don’t
misunderstand – these men are sincere. They’re not antichrists. But they tried to bring peace to
the earth. You and I both know that when the man appears on the scene who tells this war-weary
world, “We’re going to have peace, and I’m going to bring it,” they will say, “Bring him on. We
turn it all over to him.” And the world would take him today in five minutes if he appeared.
Only God is holding him back. God is not going to let him appear until He calls out His church,
and He alone knows when that time will be fulfilled.
The world will be rejoicing as the Antichrist begins his rule. But it’s going to be the saddest
day this earth has ever seen, because it means the departure of the church and the entrance of
the world into an awful period identified by Christ as the Great Tribulation.
I saw this illustrated some time ago. We were out at the airport getting ready to take a plane
to go back East. We had quite a bit of time to spend because we always get there early. So I
spent some time walking around. There was a plane getting ready to leave for the Hawaiian
Islands, and I am always interested in going to the Hawaiian Islands, so I just looked at the folk
who were going. Most of them were going out for a holiday. But I saw a couple sitting there, a
soldier boy in uniform, a fine looking young fellow, and beside him the prettiest little wife
you’ve ever seen, holding a fine looking baby. And they were both sad. Everybody else going to
the Hawaiian Islands was anticipating the fun they were going to have, but he was on his way to
Hawaii to join his outfit going to Vietnam. There sat that fellow and there sat the girl. They
weren’t saying anything. They were just staring out into space. The little boy didn’t know what
it was all about, so he was having a big time. When the call came to board the plane, they stood
up. I saw him put those great big arms around both of them, his wife and that little boy. And he
kissed both of them. Tears were coming down his cheeks and tears were coming down her
cheeks. The little boy, he was still having a big time. And then the fellow picked up his little old
bag he had there, started out to the plane, and disappeared. The girl stood there, then she went
over to the window and waited till the plane pulled out to get on the runway. I watched her as
she went away carrying that baby and carrying that bag you women have to carry when you’ve
got a baby. She was weighted down. I never felt as sorry for anyone as I did for that girl. I wondered what the future held. Was there a father or a mother she would go to, or would she have
to live alone and take care of that baby by herself? I don’t know, but it was sad to see.
I thought, That’s the way it’s going to be on this earth someday when the departure, the
Rapture, takes place. The earth will rejoice for awhile, but then a great company of people are
going to begin to wake up. They will find they’ve been deceived. The man who promised peace
is Antichrist, not Christ at all. He has taken them in; he has absolutely deceived them.
http://www.thruthebible.org/atf/cf/%7B91e2424c-636c-40c2-9c55-890588e90ece%7D/Who%20is%20Antichrist.pdf
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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2011, 08:42:38 am »

Thanks, but I still don't see it.

 really?  Huh

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


As clearly shown here, the antichrist IE: that man of sin, must be revealed first. We will know who the antichrist is.
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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2011, 09:14:36 am »

The rapture of the church precedes the beginning of the Day of the Lord.


The first epistle to the Thessalonians deals with the Rapture, Christ’s
coming for believers. The second epistle relates the return of Christ
to that phase where He returns to the earth in judgment and
where one of the accomplishments is in connection with the “man
of sin,” whom He “shall destroy with the brightness of his coming”
(2 Thessalonians 2:eight). These two aspects are clearly delineated. The
interval between these two phases is the Great Tribulation, which can
be further identified with the 70th week of Daniel 9 as a period of
seven years.
THE DAY OF THE LORD:
This is the phrase which occurs in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 (incorrectly
translated “the day of Christ” in the Authorized Version). It is an Old
Testament phrase with definite connotations. It occurs in the writings
of the Old Testament prophets where it relates to the future kingdom
promised in the Old Testament. The day of Christ is a New Testament
expression (1 Corinthians 1:eight); it relates here to the future of the
church. The day of the Lord is connected with the coming of Christ
as it relates to the setting up of the kingdom.
The day of Christ is connected with the coming of Christ for the church. Whatever else is
implied in these two statements, certainly this is basic.
The teaching in 1 Thessalonians is that the saints who have died
will have part in Christ’s coming for His living saints; in 2
Thessalonians it is that the saints who are alive will not have part in
the Great Tribulation. The return of Christ has a peculiar and precious
meaning for His saints.
 J. Vernon Mcgee
http://thruthebible.ca/notes/1-2_Thessalonians.pdf
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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2011, 09:59:21 am »

Personally, I like the late Pastor McGee - I read one of his books where he talked about the book of Malachi. It is excellent.

However, we always have to search the scriptures FIRST to find out the truth. No, I'm not saying McGee is trying to lie or distort anything, but he's just a man(like all of us), and is obviously not infallible. I like him, but I certainly don't agree with him on this particular issue.
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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2011, 11:08:58 am »

the Day of the Lord starts with the signing of the treaty. Not before, not with the Rapture, not with the rise of the antichrist. Only with the signing of the treaty. In order for the AntiChrist to broker the treaty he has to be rising in power before it happens. So we will be able to discern who he is. No one will believe us, but we should be able to discern who it might be.

The Tribulation starts with the signing of the 7year treaty with Israel and the world, not before that.
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« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2011, 11:11:12 am »

Quote
This is the phrase which occurs in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 (incorrectly
translated “the day of Christ” in the Authorized Version)

Jesus is God, so the Day of Christ works. Also the word here IS
3G5547
Χριστός
Christos
khris-tos'
From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

so it is translated correct.  Jesus is Lord.
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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2011, 12:11:02 pm »

Then how do you explain this?

 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Me? He who letteth = Holy Spirit, which will be taken out of the way with the rapture of the church. Lawlessness will run rampant, then the ac will be revealed, coming on the scene offering peace and hope. We will probably know who he is human-wise before the rapture, but I don't believe we will know he will become the ac.
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« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2011, 12:16:48 pm »

Then how do you explain this?

 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Me? He who letteth = Holy Spirit, which will be taken out of the way with the rapture of the church. Lawlessness will run rampant, then the ac will be revealed, coming on the scene offering peace and hope. We will probably know who he is human-wise before the rapture, but I don't believe we will know he will become the ac.


meaning that he will rise to full power AFTER the rapture. When the true church is removed the Antichrist will have no one to oppose him anywhere in the world except for the 2 witnesses that appear in Israel.

There is still no conflict. The Antichrist will start his rise to power before the rapture, and assume full power after. That is the only way he can broker the treaty with any power behind it.
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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2011, 12:37:31 pm »

The word "revealed" doesn't mean rise to power.

ἀποκαλύπτω
to uncover
ἀποκαλύπτω
to take off the cover, i.e. disclose
Derivation: from G575 and G2572;
KJV Usage: reveal. G575 G2572
Thayer:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2011, 12:47:31 pm »

The word "revealed" doesn't mean rise to power.

ἀποκαλύπτω
to uncover
ἀποκαλύπτω
to take off the cover, i.e. disclose
Derivation: from G575 and G2572;
KJV Usage: reveal. G575 G2572
Thayer:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown

He isnt fully revealed until AFTER the rapture. He comes to power before the Rapture. Im not getting what you do not understand here.  Huh

He rises to power before the rapture, meaning he comes onto the world stage. After the rapture he will be fully empowered and takes over.
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« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2011, 12:53:54 pm »



He rises to power before the rapture, meaning he comes onto the world stage.


This is what I am not finding anywhere.
BTW, I really appreciate/enjoy this discussion with brothers in Christ!
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« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2011, 02:22:05 pm »

This is what I am not finding anywhere.
BTW, I really appreciate/enjoy this discussion with brothers in Christ!

How do you think he is going to take over? Just show up one day? He has to get to a point of prominence some how. How do you think he gets his authority and is able to broker a treaty between Israel and the World?

Could you just go out and do it or would you have to rise to some sort of power first? probably by running and winning a local election than move to a state election than to congress or the senate. That is how you rise to power in America. Im sure its similar in Europe. So some where out there the antichrist right now could by a minor official or elected official somewhere, rising to power.

No the Tribulation starts the day he signs the treaty with Israel, not at the rapture. The Rapture could happen months or even years until the treaty is signed, although i believe it will be just a matter of months in between. SO the antichrist must be revealed before the rapture, meaning he will be a world player with publicity. After the rapture, he will be fully revealed as the ANTICHRIST to the whole world.
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« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2011, 02:27:26 pm »

Hey pavelow, if I may, I need to address the following from you. I believe it is the core of why your not getting it. You are basing you understanding on a false doctrine from the start....

Quote
The primary
meaning is “a departure.” Paul says that day shall not come until the “falling away” or “departure.” What departure is he talking about? Well, the same departure he talked about in his first
epistle to the Thessalonians. That’s the Rapture of the church. The church is going to depart
from this earth.

I'm sorry, but I believe that to be a complete misunderstanding of the scriptures. Your simply wrong. Paul was not talking about a physical removal of the body of Christ at all, he was talking about a "falling away" of the apostate church, what we call "churchianity" in the world. I believe what he is referring to is churchianity will end up bowing to the world, like all other worldly relgions are doing, subject to their respective governments. Churchanity is the apostacy, it is the "falling away", or "departure", and it will get much worse.

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Hebrews 3:12 (KJB)

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." 1 John 2:9 (KJB)

2 Thessalonians 2:3 is not talking about the "rapture" of the body of Christ. It's about the revealing of the apostate churchianity. It's the seperating the wheat from the chaff. The purpose is to expose who the frauds are, but to the unbelieving world who don't know any better not having spiritual discernment, they will think this "new" spirit of friendship in the world among all religions is so cool, like one big happy family, all worshiping the "god of this world".

And "that day" is also "the day of redemption". Many names and ways to refer to the day Jesus returns in His glory, remembering that we are sealed by the Holy Ghost until the "day of redemption".

One could refer to unbelieveing mankind as "that man of sin", but it's not the case, as the verse is talking about a specific person, not a group of people or ideology.

The "son of perdition" is none other than the Antichrist, the first beast out of the sea. The one with seven heads and ten horns. "even he is the eighth, and goeth into perdition".

9   And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  
10   And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.  
11   And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.  
12   And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.  
13   These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.  
Revelation 17:9-13 (KJB)


Don't let the description of the 7-headed beast with the Great Wh0re in Revelation 17 as being THE description by overlooking the part where it says "even he is the eighth".

It's pointing out one aspect of the first beast, the "son of perdition", which is that he has a wordly government or group behind him that literally and physically runs the world for him, the antichrist system of the world. And it says clearly the "he", a specific person, is "of the seven".

Just like there is a spiritual aspect of Jesus that we are to focus on, but there is still a physical, literal Jesus. In fact, whatever is not of God is carnal and not spiritual, so that fact demands there be a physical representation of the "son of perdition", THE Antichrist.

I believe the apostate deception, the "strong delusion", is that people don't believe there will be a specific person rise to power and sign a treaty in Jerusalem. It won't even dawn on them what's going on because they can't see it without the Spirit. I believe this doctrine is born out of the attitude that bible prophecy is just metaphors and symbology, and it's not real actual events. They'll be too busy looking for some big bad sinister group of people, and not even see the "son of perdition" show up. Classic misdirection, and the root of deception.

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." 2 Timothy 3:13 (KJB)
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akfools
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« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2011, 02:39:15 pm »

Websters 1828 defines Falling as:
FALL'ING, ppr. Descending; dropping; disemboguing; apostatizing; declining; decreasing; sinking; coming.

G646 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries)
G646 ἀποστασία apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah) n.
1. defection from truth (properly, the state)
2. "apostasy"
[feminine of the same as G647]
KJV: falling away, forsake
Root(s): G647
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« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2011, 02:43:59 pm »

i read that and meant to come back to it, but i found a mormon on PPF to debate with.  Cool
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« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2011, 09:46:04 am »

He isnt fully revealed until AFTER the rapture. He comes to power before the Rapture. Im not getting what you do not understand here.  Huh

He rises to power before the rapture, meaning he comes onto the world stage. After the rapture he will be fully empowered and takes over.

Huh

So if he rises to power before the rapture wouldn't the discerning Christian know the rapture is coming soon?
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« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2011, 10:06:16 am »

Huh

So if he rises to power before the rapture wouldn't the discerning Christian know the rapture is coming soon?

yep... Jesus himself said to Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." -

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« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2011, 12:22:04 pm »

yep... Jesus himself said to Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.



However, if the ac shows up before the rapture we will have a pretty good idea the rapture will be happening shortly.
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