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Pre-trib rapture and antichrist

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Author Topic: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist  (Read 7585 times)
Mark
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« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2013, 05:21:13 am »

I pose this question...

If there is a "rapture" that takes believers out of the world before the tribulation period, then why did Jesus pray to the Father that He wouldn't take them out of the world, but rather keep them from the evil?

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


Looks like he is going to save us.... We are also in Heaven with him when he returns, how did we get there?
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« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2013, 05:49:50 am »

Thus I said there is more than one. Call it what you want, seeing the word isn't in scripture anyway, being an invention of churchianity. It's a moot argument. There is clearly more than one event. The lie is that there is a single "rapture" event before things get bad. I say bull, there is no pre-trib "rapture" where believers are pulled from the "fire" before it starts burning. Here's another one...

"And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God." Zechariah 13:9 (KJB)



no, there is a single rapture event and 2 ressurections, which are not like the rapture at all. You can call it the great snatch if you want, but getting fussy about a word that isnt in the ENGLISH Bible is a little redundit dont you think? I mean the word Trinity isnt in there either.

That verse isnt for Christians but the Jews them selves during the final days of the Trib, this verse is referensed by Jesus himself.

Matt 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


The LIE is that there isnt a rapture and this was started by the Catholic church all the way back in the late 400's. The True Church has always maintained the belief in the coming of the Lord to save his people before the endtimes in the air. History has proven this, the Catholics have always lied about it.

We all have tribulation in our lives, you had some not to long ago, that is not the same as the great and terrible day of the Lord, BIG difference, and YOU should know that.
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« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2013, 08:44:41 am »

Thus I said there is more than one. Call it what you want, seeing the word isn't in scripture anyway, being an invention of churchianity. It's a moot argument. There is clearly more than one event. The lie is that there is a single "rapture" event before things get bad. I say bull, there is no pre-trib "rapture" where believers are pulled from the "fire" before it starts burning. Here's another one...

"And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God." Zechariah 13:9 (KJB)



I understand what you're saying - but just to clarify...

1) Pre-trib or whatever you want to call it, modern-day Churchianity hasn't even mentioned a peep about it for quite some time. They don't even believe pre-mill anymore. Which is why I brought up that Dave McPherson guy - not that I ever endorsed bible seminaries, but a long time ago they were teaching pre-trib/pre-mill to their students, until McPherson came by "warning" them about this doctrine. Guess what...fast-forward to this present day, and ALMOST ZERO(with maybe the exception of Peter Ruckman's college) are teaching it. By and large they teach A-Mill/Preterism. BTW - McPherson's work is endorsed by Preterist web sites, which speaks volumes.

2) No, I never believed that the rapture(or whatever you want to call it) will happen 5 minutes from now(or week/month from now for that matter too) - both I and Mark discussed prior that things will get worse and worse before the Antichrist will make his appearance. Matthew 24, 1st and 2 Timothy, etc makes this very clear. As a matter of fact, as we're looking at current events in recent weeks, things are getting worse and worse right now.

Again, pre-trib or whatever you want to call it - just wanted to clarify these points.

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.


2Tim 3:1  This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4  Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


And let's not forget this passage...

Rev 3:7  And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8  I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

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« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2013, 08:54:10 am »

I pose this question...

If there is a "rapture" that takes believers out of the world before the tribulation period, then why did Jesus pray to the Father that He wouldn't take them out of the world, but rather keep them from the evil?

One more thing...

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Pre-trib(or whatever you want to call it) - this passage here makes it clear the AC has to make his appearance first(notice the word "and" b/w "falling away" and "the man of sin be revealed").

Anyhow, just wanted to further clarify what Mark, I, and C40 have been talking about(ie-that the "pre-trib rapture" is not some event that will happen a few minutes or days from now). So yes, while Christians should have no fear whatsoever, there are going to be some very difficult times ahead.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 09:13:56 am by BornAgain2 » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2013, 04:34:32 pm »

Before we get any further, let me say again, that this topic is not something I have studied to the extent of what "preterism" even is. Without looking up a definition, I don't know what "a-mill" is. That's churchainity terms that I never have been interested in learning. All I know is if what they say matches what I know scripture to say. I, we, don't really need to know the details of their blindness. Just the basics I think will do, but that's only my exhortation to keep things simple and focused so we don't get lost in the babble of churchianity-speak.

If you'll bear with me, understand that I think we are saying more or less the same. The difference is I think in each person's understanding of when a given verse takes place in time. So the first point starts with what verses define this first event referred to as "The Rapture"? What other verses are talking about this specific event?

Also a difference may be understanding of what the rapture itself is suppose to be.

I understand it to be the "taking up" of all believers at that point in time, dead and alive, before the seven year tribulation, leaving behind people that are lost, but do have during the tribulation the chance to repent and be saved, up and including the "Mark" period. These people go through all the tribulation period, and are under a "works" type salvation. Some of them will die during that seven years period, who will then "sleep" till the final coming, and at that time be raised up with those dead alive and meet Jesus and the rest of the saints and previously risen brethren "in the air", and seemingly immediately, "in the twinkling of an eye", are seen by the unbelieving world as returning with Jesus Christ.

So, you bring up great points BA I would like to address more, but let's focus on what Mark said first. I think that's where we are closest. I agree with you Mark, that there is more than one event. I guess what I dispute is the way it is being presented by churchianity; that "all believers have no worries, we'll all be yanked out before the evil shows up, and that's it. The evil people go through tribulation, it's all put down by Jesus in the end. End of story".

Quote
Quote from: Kilika on Today at 03:52:47 am
I pose this question...

If there is a "rapture" that takes believers out of the world before the tribulation period, then why did Jesus pray to the Father that He wouldn't take them out of the world, but rather keep them from the evil?

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Looks like he is going to save us.... We are also in Heaven with him when he returns, how did we get there

Now see, verse 10 is what I'm talking about, that's the "tribulation" I'm talking about that the church will be here for that the "rapture doctrine" seems to dispute, saying we will be taken out before such things even happen.

No question Jesus saves us from evil every day.

That "hour of temptation" is when on the timeline? Is that the "...deliver us from evil..." that we pray for?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 04:37:00 pm by Kilika » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2013, 04:58:12 pm »

Interesting points - the key word to look at in Rev 3:10 is KEEP. But doesn't keep generally mean to guard? For example, when Jesus says to keep his commandments(which does NOT mean to do the 10 commandments, per se, as we're not under the OT law anymore), it means to keep his words(scripture) in your heart, right?

Psa_119:11  Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

which brings us to this...

2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


the "strong delusion" - whatever the "strong delusion" will be, let's say we're HERE when it happens. Does this mean that the believers in Christ will quickly discern the grand deception? And that is ANY believer, and not some so-called "mature" believer who's some scripture quoting scholar machine(if you know what I mean here).

Col 1:12  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

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« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2013, 05:21:47 pm »

I'm not sure if that answers the question of when the "hour of temptation" is. Is it the same as the "strong delusion"? These two being one and the same event or period?

As Mark mentioned in another thread, the claim is there is a "Tribulation", then there is "The Great Tribulation", which I surmise to be the seven year period, while the "Tribulation" is what I'm meaning it seems, the lead up to that seven year period.

My understanding is that the common rapture claim is that the church won't experience ANY of these tribulations. I dispute that claim. We at least will see the "Tribulation", the increasingly bad times, but I agree these "beginnings of sorrows" are the ramp up to the seven year tribulation period.
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« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2013, 05:34:54 pm »

I'm not sure if that answers the question of when the "hour of temptation" is. Is it the same as the "strong delusion"? These two being one and the same event or period?

James 1:12  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


The reason why I put this passage here is b/c this is for the believer who has constant struggles in his or her flesh(as Paul discussed in Romans 7) - on the contrary, the "hour of temptation" in Rev 3:10 talks about how it will try THE WORLD, and NOT the believer's daily struggle in the flesh.(at least that's how I understand it)

Quote
As Mark mentioned in another thread, the claim is there is a "Tribulation", then there is "The Great Tribulation", which I surmise to be the seven year period, while the "Tribulation" is what I'm meaning it seems, the lead up to that seven year period.

Yes, that's what I understand too - the "great tribulation" is the final 7 year period.

Mat_24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And the other verses talking about regular tribulation is concerning the believer, I agree.


Rom 5:3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


Quote
My understanding is that the common rapture claim is that the church won't experience ANY of these tribulations. I dispute that claim. We at least will see the "Tribulation", the increasingly bad times, but I agree these "beginnings of sorrows" are the ramp up to the seven year tribulation period.

Yeah, that was my point too - it's not like everything will be "peaceful and prosperous" before the snatching away. I don't know how bad/worse things will get before the snatching away, but as I understood in scripture, Jesus does say the believers WILL witness the "beginnings of sorrows"(the key words are "but the end is not yet..." in this passage).

Thoughts from anyone else? Have to go exercise now before it gets dark.
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« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2013, 08:27:21 pm »

Here's a couple of passages with tribulation(NOT the great tribulation, that is)...

Act 14:21  And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
Act 14:22  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


Rom 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


AND...

2Th 1:3  We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4  So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
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« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2013, 10:17:03 pm »

Thoughts from anyone else? Have to go exercise now before it gets dark.

if You take all the real Christians in the world now and see the percentage of Christians in tribulation and Christians already in persecution it would be pretty high so the key word is what tribulation means, those Christians in it now would love to see a Pre-trib rapture which is the Lord Jesus meeting the Church in the clouds. It is a blessed hope, it is encouragement to know that soon we will see the Lord Jesus, we look for the Lord Jesus and not the Antichrist. Who cares about the Antichrist when we have the power of the Lord Jesus to see. Whatever happens i will be trusting God.
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« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2013, 09:51:08 pm »

I have a few things to say/ask/quote. But first, let me preface by saying that I'm ultimately "pan-trib", but I'm 90% sure it's post-trib. Not because we have to "suffer" or anything like that, but merely by reading the Bible for what it is (the Bible means what it says and says what it means) and not reading things into scripture that aren't there, I have ALWAYS come to the conclusion of a post-trib rapture.

1. Who is the "elect" referred to in Matthew 24, Mark 13, etc?
It is the believers in Jesus Christ. Whether they be Jew or Gentile. There are 13 occurrences of the word "elect" in the New Testament. 1 is in reference to Jesus. 1 is in reference to angels. That makes 11 occurrences in the NT apart from the one about Christ and one about angels. 4 occur in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 (for example, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.") For the sake of argument, we'll leave those out for now. Who is being referred to in the other 7 occurrences?

Luke 18:7  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2 John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2 John 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

These are believers. Jew AND Gentile.

2. If the "he who now letteth will let" is the Holy Spirit working through the body of Christ, he must be removed from the earth (and the body of Christ with him) for the Antichrist to be revealed. If that is the case, HOW DOES ANYONE ELSE GET SAVED AFTER THAT? If the Holy Spirit is not there, you will not get saved. That includes the one-third of the Jews that the Bible clearly states will be saved during the Tribulation. They would not be able to get saved. The Bible merely states "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." One example of many where something needs to be read into the verse for a pre-trib to make sense Biblically.

3. None of you use the "We are not appointed unto wrath..." verse to justify pre-trib rapture theory, do you? It's one thing to Biblically back it with scripture, it's another thing to take one verse out of context like my church does with that one to justify it...

(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(Luke 21:36) " Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
(Ephesians 6:13) "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

Why would we need to pray that we be taken up in the pre-trib rapture? Merely by being saved you would be. And what is this evil day?

There's more, but I need to get to bed soon.

God bless  Smiley
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« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2013, 10:27:04 pm »

I have a few things to say/ask/quote. But first, let me preface by saying that I'm ultimately "pan-trib", but I'm 90% sure it's post-trib.

1 question you have to answer before i continue.

Rom 1:7  To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Zec 14:5  And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


So, as we can clearly see, we are all called saints who accept Jesus. SO how can we come back with him, when he returns, if we are not raised until he returns? If the Lord returns with all of his saints on horses, how did we get there? if we dont rise until he returns.

im sorry but the BIBLE teaches a pre trib rapture. there is no way around it. We return at the end of the trib WITH the Lord, because he came and got us before the Trib.
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« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2013, 10:47:28 pm »

Excellent Post, FervorForFaith - a couple things to point out...

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Compare this passage to...

1The 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Notice in the Matthew 24 passage, talking about Jesus's 2nd Coming, it mentions nothing about dead saints seeing the Lord mentioned in 1 The 4:13-18. The 1 The 4 passage says the saints(both the dead ones and the ones alive remaining) are rising in the air to meet the Lord, while the Matthew 24 passage says how it's the angels that gather together the elect.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Compare that to the 1 The 4:13-18 passage - again, says nothing about the saints(both dead and alive remaining) in the passage concerning the 6th seal.

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Look in your KJV - the words "which were" is italicized - if the rapture is post-trib, then why do they use past tense here? Obviously, the KJV translators knew what they were doing.

With that being said, no, I don't agree with the angle of the pre-trib theory that the rapture will happen imminently(like a week from now, tomorrow, or while I'm typing this post). There are things that need to come to pass before the 7 year trib starts - for example, IMHO, the AC won't just show up out of thin air after the rapture of the church(like most popular mainstream bible teachers like John MacArthur and Hal Lindsey would make you believe). There will likely be a world figure who slowly rises to popularity and power before he signs the Daniel 9:27 covenant. Christians, especially those who are watching in these last days, will notice him, but the lost world and the pseudo-Christian modern-day church won't.

Luke_21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


We're already seeing a falling away of the church here in America(and the world) - just NO biblical truth in these modern-day churches. Notice the word "and", it's NOT "then"(like the popular modern-day bible teachers want to make you believe) - IOW, we're seeing prophecy unfolding already with the falling away of the church. But when this world figure rises to popularity and power, we will notice him. Ultimately, you can still have a pre-trib rapture b/w the time he rises to popularity and when he signs the Daniel 9:27 covenant.
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« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2013, 05:19:15 am »

"For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it." 1 Corinthians 11:18 (KJB)

Because I'm not convinced, as well as I think it's not important and even a distraction, to be debating "pre or post trib", I tend to avoid this discussion. We are saved whether we are right or wrong about when we are caught up to "meet the Lord in the air".

The point to remember is that we will be shown what we need when we need it. Jesus promised us we would be shown things, that we would know our redemption "draweth nigh". So that means we will see certain changes in the world around us that lets us know the time is short.

But what I think some people tend to overlook is that there is two types of tribulation mentioned in scripture. There is the tribulation we experience while here, as part of the day to day dealings with the world because the world hates us. The other is "great tribulation", which is commonly thought to be the 7 year tribulation period, during which the trumpet, seals, and vials are unleashed.

One indicator that is mentioned is the "trumpet" that is mentioned as part of the great tribulation, and another mentioned as being "the trumpet shall sound..." seems to be connected to our "rapture", "the dead in Christ shall rise first..."

Are there two trumpet sounds? Or are these two one and the same trumpet? Also, pre-trib says we won't be here during the sounding of the trumpets, along with the opening of the seals, etc, as that's part of the great tribulation period, we are already gone by then, right?

Jesus clearly says, "In the world ye shall have tribulation...". That however is not a reference anything more than how we experience tribulation in the world, but it doesn't relate to any rapture. It's not the same type "tribulation". I mention this because some confuse certain verses as evidence of pre-trib, when in fact it's talking about the general tribulation we all experience each day in the world, and is not any indicator of a rapture.

More than one verse mentioned above have no relation to the rapture, such as the Matthew 24 verses. Notice that it says, "...from one end of heaven to the other." That verse to me shows the body of Christ already in heaven. It doesn't say earth, but heaven. If we have not been "raptured" yet, we obviously could not be in heaven to be gathered from one end to the other.

The key is where it says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days". Wait, stop. What tribulation? And what is being described as taking place after that tribulation? The return of Jesus, with His saints, the armies of God, gathered by His angels "from one end of heaven to the other". So is Matthew 24:29 talking about the "great tribulation" period? Seems so. That means then we need to go back in time to see what takes place during and before "the tribulation of those days", because from verse 29 on, the body is definitely in heaven already. NOW we have a baseline (determine when we are definitely here, and when we are no longer here) to work with on the timeline. So the latter Matthew 24 verses only help establish a point when we are no longer here, but in heaven. It needs to be defines what the tribulation is in verse 29, but it seems like THE tribulation period. By that time, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", we are already gone.

This I believe is one of the most telling verses on the topic...

Quote
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Notice it says "we". Who "we" are needs to be clarified.

The author is including himself in the group of those believers that are alive in the flesh on earth when Jesus returns, with His gathered armies. But, "we" in that verse are said to be on earth still, observing His return. So, how does that work? To say "we" is to refer to all believers, yet Matthew tells us that we are already with Jesus when He returns. Hmm. Somebody is wrong, and it ain't Jesus!

This is where some say that they are the people who were left on earth after the rapture, but have been born-again during the great tribulation and are still alive in the flesh on earth when Jesus returns "with ten thousands of his saints". I'm not seeing anything yet that refutes that. It doesn't not fit. This is where some say thta there is not a single "rapture", but more than one, a pre-trib of believers, then another at the time of Jesus' return with those saints who were raptured before the great tribulation period. Some have tried to make the case that there is even more than two "raptures", calling the taking up of Enoch as a rapture. That to me is a stretch of the word "rapture".

But it is clear to me that if there is such a thing as a pre-tribulation rapture, there is also a "rapture" of the seven year tribulation period new believers as Jesus returns as well.

So for what it's worth, attention needs to be paid to which tribulation is being talked about in a given verse, as both general and the great tribulation period are mentioned in and around end times related verses. The word "tribulation" is used generally throughout scripture, and specifically about the seven year tribulation period.

"No prophesy of scripture is of any private interpretation..."

No question, there is just one interpretation, so some of us are wrong, and must humble ourselves and let God shows us the error of our way.

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:10 (KJB)

"[Be] of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits." Romans 12:16 (KJB)

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Titus 3:9 (KJB)

"For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's." Romans 14:8 (KJB)
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« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2013, 02:53:27 pm »

Excellent discussion and analysis by all in this thread! Smiley

James_1:5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
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« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2013, 12:49:03 am »

This is where some say that they are the people who were left on earth after the rapture, but have been born-again during the great tribulation and are still alive in the flesh on earth when Jesus returns "with ten thousands of his saints". I'm not seeing anything yet that refutes that. It doesn't not fit.

But how can anyone get saved if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the earth? "He who now letteth will let..." is commonly said to be the Holy Spirit working through the church. The Holy Spirit will be taken off the earth, and because the Holy Spirit lives inside a born again believer, we will be taken as well.

But if that's the case, no one can get saved after the pre-trib rapture, and we know that can't be (the one-third of Israel WILL get saved, as the Bible states).

(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(Luke 21:36) " Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
(Ephesians 6:13) "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

Why would we need to pray that we be taken up in the pre-trib rapture? Merely by being saved you would be. And what is this evil day? Could it be the day of the Lord?

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." (Isaiah 13:9)

"Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light." (Amos 5:20)

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)

"Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;" (Amos 6:3)

"The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly." (Zephaniah 1:14)

"Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come." (Joel 1:15)

Now granted, Revelation 6 is in reference to the Lamb, Jesus Christ. However:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5)

"As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus." (2 Corinthians 1:14)

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." (2 Thessalonians 2:2) (This lines up with Ephesians 6:13, where we need to take up the whole armor of God, basically to avoid deception)

We WILL be here for "the tribulation of those days", but we also WILL return with Christ at Armageddon. There is only one second coming of Christ.

(2 Thessalonians 2:1) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

is the same coming as:

[2 Thessalonians 2:8] "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

How exactly everything plays out we don't know, and I don't think we will know until it does play out. Remember that "we see through a glass, darkly..." and that:

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." (1 Thessalonians 5:2)

Thank you all and God bless Smiley
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« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2013, 03:11:57 am »

Quote
But how can anyone get saved if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the earth? "He who now letteth will let..." is commonly said to be the Holy Spirit working through the church. The Holy Spirit will be taken off the earth, and because the Holy Spirit lives inside a born again believer, we will be taken as well.

By "works".

We are judged by our "works" in that whether or not we walk in the Spirit. Our works is walking by faith, not by sight. But if in fact the Spirit is pulled as some speculate, those people still here will be walking by sight, and not faith, by the law, under a "works" system like it was for Israel under Judaism.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12 (KJB)
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« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2013, 04:52:34 am »

Quote
But how can anyone get saved if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the earth? "He who now letteth will let..." is commonly said to be the Holy Spirit working through the church. The Holy Spirit will be taken off the earth, and because the Holy Spirit lives inside a born again believer, we will be taken as well.

 Sad
By "works".

We are judged by our "works" in that whether or not we walk in the Spirit. Our works is walking by faith, not by sight. But if in fact the Spirit is pulled as some speculate, those people still here will be walking by sight, and not faith, by the law, under a "works" system like it was for Israel under Judaism.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12 (KJB)

That's what i think, that the seven years of the Big Trib will see God dealing with the nation of Israel once the Church has left the earth.
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« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2013, 06:03:19 am »

The Holy Spirit does not leave the Earth, the people saved After the Rapture will have to lose their heads and give a Testimony of their faith. These are the Tribulation Saints. You are still saved by faith and works during the 7 year period, as if you take the Mark, you are done no matter what you do, hence an act of works. When the Lord returns the only Christians on planet will be the remnant of Israel that is saved as the rest of the planet will be utterly uninhabitable. 

The Lord returns with ALL of his Saints that were raptured before the start of the Tribulation, the Trib Saints are resurrected AFTER the Tribulation. They are the ones whose souls are under the Temple during the Tribulation.

The fact that a trumpet is blown at the Rapture has no connection to the 7 trumpet judgments in Revelation. Paul wrote his epistle  around 30 years before John was given the vision of Revelation. You really cannot link the 2 together at it just doesn’t fit. Only 2 people were given that vision, Daniel who was told to lock it up, and John who was told to write it down. So clearly the Trumpet sound is something else. Since the whole rapture of the Church is compared to a wedding, and there were a lot of trumpet blasts during the whole ceremony. When the Husband came for his bride there were trumpets blown. It is a wedding, the Lord, Jesus comes for his Bride, the Church, than we go to a 7 year feast, instead of 7 days in the bridal chamber. He is making us mansions and all.. The trumpets has nothing to do with the 7 trumpet judgment.

The trumpet and the rapture is in no way linked to the Tribulation. Just read Jesus's own words on it.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

There will not be any fields to work, the Judgments will destroy all of them.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

there will not be any mills, all gone. These people are described as doing normal everyday stuff, no one will be doing that during the Tribulation.

42 ¶ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Really? Heck that’s easy to determine after the Trib starts, that is only possible with a PRE TRIB rapture.
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« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2013, 02:55:04 pm »

The Holy Spirit does not leave the Earth, the people saved After the Rapture will have to lose their heads and give a Testimony of their faith. These are the Tribulation Saints. You are still saved by faith and works during the 7 year period, as if you take the Mark, you are done no matter what you do, hence an act of works. When the Lord returns the only Christians on planet will be the remnant of Israel that is saved as the rest of the planet will be utterly uninhabitable. 

The Lord returns with ALL of his Saints that were raptured before the start of the Tribulation, the Trib Saints are resurrected AFTER the Tribulation. They are the ones whose souls are under the Temple during the Tribulation.

The fact that a trumpet is blown at the Rapture has no connection to the 7 trumpet judgments in Revelation. Paul wrote his epistle  around 30 years before John was given the vision of Revelation. You really cannot link the 2 together at it just doesn’t fit. Only 2 people were given that vision, Daniel who was told to lock it up, and John who was told to write it down. So clearly the Trumpet sound is something else. Since the whole rapture of the Church is compared to a wedding, and there were a lot of trumpet blasts during the whole ceremony. When the Husband came for his bride there were trumpets blown. It is a wedding, the Lord, Jesus comes for his Bride, the Church, than we go to a 7 year feast, instead of 7 days in the bridal chamber. He is making us mansions and all.. The trumpets has nothing to do with the 7 trumpet judgment.

The trumpet and the rapture is in no way linked to the Tribulation. Just read Jesus's own words on it.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

There will not be any fields to work, the Judgments will destroy all of them.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

there will not be any mills, all gone. These people are described as doing normal everyday stuff, no one will be doing that during the Tribulation.

42 ¶ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Really? Heck that’s easy to determine after the Trib starts, that is only possible with a PRE TRIB rapture.


We know not what hour our Lord comes? Kind of like how the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night? The coming of the Lord is the same as the day of the Lord, which is the same as the day of Christ. I have read and re-read those passages over and over recently, and the more I read them, the more I see no distinction between the day of the Lord and the coming of our Lord Jesus.

About the other passage: Half of the world would get raptured if that were a rapture verse. I personally don't believe that is the case. We know that people are gonna repopulate the earth during the Millennial Reign. I believe the "one left" is the ones that will still be here to repopulate the planet. The "one taken" is the ones that took the mark of the Beast and are put into the wine-press of the wrath of God.

Quote
(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(Luke 21:36) " Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
(Ephesians 6:13) "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

Why would we need to pray that we be taken up in the pre-trib rapture? Merely by being saved you would be. And what is this evil day? Could it be the day of the Lord?

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." (Isaiah 13:9)

"Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light." (Amos 5:20)

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)

"Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;" (Amos 6:3)

"The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly." (Zephaniah 1:14)

"Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come." (Joel 1:15)

Now granted, Revelation 6 is in reference to the Lamb, Jesus Christ. However:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5)

"As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus." (2 Corinthians 1:14)

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." (2 Thessalonians 2:2) (This lines up with Ephesians 6:13, where we need to take up the whole armor of God, basically to avoid deception)

We WILL be here for "the tribulation of those days", but we also WILL return with Christ at Armageddon. THERE IS ONLY ONE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST.

(2 Thessalonians 2:1) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

is the same coming as:

[2 Thessalonians 2:8] "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

How exactly everything plays out we don't know, and I don't think we will know until it does play out. Remember that "we see through a glass, darkly..." and that:

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." (1 Thessalonians 5:2)

Thank you all and God bless Smiley

What about these...

Quote
Who is the "elect" referred to in Matthew 24, Mark 13, etc?
It is the believers in Jesus Christ. Whether they be Jew or Gentile. There are 13 occurrences of the word "elect" in the New Testament. 1 is in reference to Jesus. 1 is in reference to angels. That makes 11 occurrences in the NT apart from the one about Christ and one about angels. 4 occur in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 (for example, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.") For the sake of argument, we'll leave those out for now. Who is being referred to in the other 7 occurrences?

Luke 18:7  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2 John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2 John 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

These are believers. Jew AND Gentile.

Or this?

I'm not saying you can't see pre-trib in certain verses (because even I can see it sometimes), but the problem is that a lot of people read into verses things that aren't there or take verses out of context (such as 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Just by reading the Bible for what it is (as I said before, the Bible says what it means and means what it says), I can come to no other conclusion than that the rapture will be post-trib. However, this shouldn't be a dividing issue. One side will be wrong when it's all said and done, but by that time I won't even care.

For the argument of pre vs. post-trib, I think Scott Johnson did a pretty good study on it. He missed out on some scripture he could have used, but all in all it's pretty good. I'd recommend it.

I don't usually like talking about the rapture anymore, because it riles up unnecessary anger. My church (non-501c3) really dislikes me now because I believe in post-trib and quoted some verse to explain why I believe that (whereas they are staunch pre-trib, even 'triple rapture' proponents). I just want people to see all Biblical sides of it. If it's pre-trib, great! Praise God! If it's post-trib, still praise God! I want people to be prepared and not lose faith even if it doesn't pan out the way one might have been taught their whole life. And that goes for everything: the rapture, Antichrist, false prophet, Babylon the Great, etc.

Remember: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

In any case, this is an exciting time in history, and I'll just be happy to be there. I'm really just so happy to be able to sing that great hymn "When the roll is called up yonder... I'll be there," and know that it's true.

God bless all you brethren in Christ Jesus!
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« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2013, 05:29:15 am »

Quote
When the Lord returns the only Christians on planet will be the remnant of Israel that is saved as the rest of the planet will be utterly uninhabitable.

Huh? Please explain that. What about all those who will convert during that seven years? They would be called Christians too. What you say makes no sense.

I also question who "Israel" mentioned really is. That remnant is not who you think. It ain't Jews, sorry. You either accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, or you perish, period.

Jews WISH they would be saved without Jesus, but that ain't happening. I realize some churchianity preachers are tossing around this idea, but it's just a misinterpretation. The real Israel that is being talked about is believers, Christians. Here's why...

You claim like churchianity that "a remnant" will be saved, but that flys in the face of the verse that says "so all Israel shall be saved".

Wait, ALL Israel? I thought it was a remnant. Then somebody must be wrong about who, or rather, which Israel is being talked about. I say that Israel are Christians, not Jews. ALL believers will be saved. We are Jews inwardly, not outwardly like His people Israel, the Hebrews. They wash the outside of the cup, while the REAL Israel are clean on the inside and are saved because we accept Jesus as Messiah.

When Jesus returns, who do you think looks on Him in mourning and shock? Those who pierced Him, the Jews. They WILL mourn because at that time they realize they seriously messed up! It is then that the Jewish people realize that they killed their Saviour.

We are the ones that God fulfills His promises with, not the Jews. They had their chance under the Law. They failed.

All Israel WILL be saved. Like churchianity, you're thinking the wrong Israel.

Churchianity leaven is a disease that is tickling the ears of those who are too impatient to wait on God to tell them the truth.

I'm telling you right now, that leaven has crept in here among some who post on this site. The Lord rebuke that lying spirit.

Like FervorForFaith mentioned, it matters not seeing striving about the law is indeed unprofitable and vain, as we ARE saved. Thank you Jesus!

"How is it that ye do not understand that I spake [it] not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?" Matthew 16:11 (KJB)

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« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2013, 05:52:03 am »

Huh? Please explain that. What about all those who will convert during that seven years? They would be called Christians too. What you say makes no sense.

I also question who "Israel" mentioned really is. That remnant is not who you think. It ain't Jews, sorry. You either accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, or you perish, period.

Jews WISH they would be saved without Jesus, but that ain't happening. I realize some churchianity preachers are tossing around this idea, but it's just a misinterpretation. The real Israel that is being talked about is believers, Christians. Here's why...

You claim like churchianity that "a remnant" will be saved, but that flys in the face of the verse that says "so all Israel shall be saved".

Wait, ALL Israel? I thought it was a remnant. Then somebody must be wrong about who, or rather, which Israel is being talked about. I say that Israel are Christians, not Jews. ALL believers will be saved. We are Jews inwardly, not outwardly like His people Israel, the Hebrews. They wash the outside of the cup, while the REAL Israel are clean on the inside and are saved because we accept Jesus as Messiah.

When Jesus returns, who do you think looks on Him in mourning and shock? Those who pierced Him, the Jews. They WILL mourn because at that time they realize they seriously messed up! It is then that the Jewish people realize that they killed their Saviour.

We are the ones that God fulfills His promises with, not the Jews. They had their chance under the Law. They failed.

All Israel WILL be saved. Like churchianity, you're thinking the wrong Israel.

Churchianity leaven is a disease that is tickling the ears of those who are too impatient to wait on God to tell them the truth.

I'm telling you right now, that leaven has crept in here among some who post on this site. The Lord rebuke that lying spirit.

Like FervorForFaith mentioned, it matters not seeing striving about the law is indeed unprofitable and vain, as we ARE saved. Thank you Jesus!

"How is it that ye do not understand that I spake [it] not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?" Matthew 16:11 (KJB)



Zec 13:8  And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


Maybe you should get off your high horse and learn a little. Your always claiming special revelation, and its so easy to disprove. Humble yourself a little and your eyes will be open because your blinded by pride.

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I'm telling you right now, that leaven has crept in here among some who post on this site. The Lord rebuke that lying spirit.

you got that right.
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« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2013, 06:10:05 am »

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Your always claiming special revelation


I claim no such thing!

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." John 5:30 (KJB)

Pride? Indeed I have my moments, I'm not perfect, but at times my confidence in knowing the truth is falsely called pride by those that are questioned. Classic churchianity defensive accusations.

There is no need for such an attitude. Why are you lashing out? Talk about pride, and hypocrisy!

And quite frankly, seeing you want to go there, you haven't proved anything Mark, all you've done is post comments along with a couple verses that you think backs your claims. That from Zechariah is not what you claim. That talks about ALL people, not Jews, as evidenced by "all the land". The third part that He brings through the fire, those are they who call on Jesus.

"And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends." Zechariah 13:6 (KJB)

Point blank, do you believe a Jew can be saved without accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour?

5  Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6  For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies [are] the men of his own house.
7  Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.
Micah7:5-7 (KJB)
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« Reply #83 on: May 13, 2013, 06:30:56 am »

I claim no such thing!

Yes you do and quite a bit. You claim you learn EVERYTHING from the Holy Spirit. That is of PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. The Bible states to find teachers and listen to them, yet in your PRIDE you reject that and claim your own knowledge. Do you need me to get the quotes?

Pride? Indeed I have my moments, I'm not perfect, but at times my confidence in knowing the truth is falsely called pride by those that are questioned. Classic churchianity defensive accusations.

your wrong here, and your whole defense is churchianity, your using replacement theology which is in fact chuchianity created by the catholic church

There is no need for such an attitude. Why are you lashing out? Talk about pride, and hypocrisy!

And quite frankly, seeing you want to go there, you haven't proved anything Mark, all you've done is post comments along with a couple verses that you think backs your claims. That from Zechariah is not what you claim. That talks about ALL people, not Jews, as evidenced by "all the land". The third part that He brings through the fire, those are they who call on Jesus.

"And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends." Zechariah 13:6 (KJB)

Point blank, do you believe a Jew can be saved without accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour?

5  Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6  For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies [are] the men of his own house.
7  Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.
Micah7:5-7 (KJB)


See there you go again. The Land is Israel, and the third that will be saved will be Christian, They will call on the Lord, and that is the exact moment he will return.

Zec 13:1  In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem not the church

Mat 23:38  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39  For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


The Lord is talking to the Jewish people here, no one else. Not the church, not the world, but all of Israel.

Zec 13:9  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Quote
Point blank, do you believe a Jew can be saved without accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour?

nope and i think i just showed you that. Thats not "chuchianity" that is what the Bible says. You have claimed a couple of times you dont know to much about this stuff, well why not learn some of it instead of going against what you feel is wrong.

Am i little bitter? ya as i know just what you think of me.
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« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2013, 05:22:46 pm »

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I claim no such thing!

Yes you do and quite a bit. You claim you learn EVERYTHING from the Holy Spirit. That is of PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. The Bible states to find teachers and listen to them, yet in your PRIDE you reject that and claim your own knowledge. Do you need me to get the quotes?

I don't claim to get what I understand from the Holy Ghost, it's a FACT. From the Spirit is EXACTLY where ALL of us get our understanding of the true gospel. You rebuke me for claiming the truth of the Spirit? Mark, Mark, Mark, now pride has taken over your better judgement! Look again at what you just said to me. Then read this brother...Are you sure you really believe the following with all your heart?

11  And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and [unto] magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12  For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
Luke 12:11,12 (KJB)


"But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26 (KJB)

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." 1 John 2:27 (KJB)

THAT is where I get my understanding. No MAN teaches me anything. It is God Almighty by His Spirit that teaches me, and everyone else that believes. It is the Spirit in others around me that gives me understanding. It is not the work of  self-professing teachers, it's the Spirit in a teacher, a preacher, a brother, or sister. It is the Spirit working in us sharing with others "that which ye have".

We pray to God, not men, so why go looking for what other men say the gospel is? All you have to do is have faith in the Spirit that Jesus said He would give you the Spirit to teach and protect you. It is not men that teach, or preach, or heal, it is "Jesus Christ in you".

And yes, by all means quote what scripture says. "Feed my sheep".

You, like me and everyone else in the body, are exhorted to "prove what is acceptable...". Are we all on the same page at the same time? No. Each of us are at different stages of growth in our faith and understanding, growing from a babe to a man when we "put away childish things". What you may have, I may not, and vice versa. That is why scripture, not my words, says that...

"And when they did mete [it] with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating." Exodus 16:18 (KJB)

14  But by an equality, [that] now at this time your abundance [may be a supply] for their want, that their abundance also may be [a supply] for your want: that there may be equality:
15   As it is written, He that [had gathered] much had nothing over; and he that [had gathered] little had no lack. 2 Corinthians 8:15 (KJB)



Pride? Indeed I have my moments, I'm not perfect, but at times my confidence in knowing the truth is falsely called pride by those that are questioned. Classic churchianity defensive accusations.

your wrong here, and your whole defense is churchianity, your using replacement theology which is in fact chuchianity created by the catholic church

On the contrary. My defense is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

It's right there in plain sight to read it for yourself. Either what is preached is one of two things; the truth, or a lie. The word "churchianity" is used as a general term to relate to so-called "organized Christianity", the so-called "church goers" crowd that are promoting, and BA has thoroughly documented in his research, "replacement theology, contemplative prayer", etc.

Who did Jesus rail on the most? Who were the ones He rebuked the most? The religious leaders of the day, "scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!" which at the time were Jews. But just like with circumcision ("...is that of the heart..."), it's now spiritual ("comparing spiritual with spiritual", and those verses now apply to all religious leaders, the modern day Pharisee of the various "denominations" in Churchianity, not just the Jews, and it applies to everybody that rejects the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Look, I have many times admitted, acknowledge, and exhorted people that they are NOT to listen to my words, but seek out the Word of God, to listen to the scriptures that come out in what I say. Only His Word will profit a man ("shall not return unto me void..."), that is why it says we must offer interpretation with our own words...

"He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." 1 Corinthians 14:4 (KJB)

14  For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15  What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16  Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
1 Corinthians 14:14-16 (KJB)


"He that hath an ear..."


Quote
Am i little bitter? ya as i know just what you think of me.

Have you ever actually asked me what I think of you? You and I both know you haven't. So how is it that you know? And why do you even care what I, or any man, thinks of you? The unbelieving world think some really nasty things of you, and me and all of us who believe, as a son of God, and your worried about me?

I'll tell you what I think Mark. I have seen evidence that you have been influenced by false teachers of churchianity. That's it.

And I would exhort you to post more of your understandings in your own words with the appropriate scripture, and less copy/paste articles and videos about doctrine. We learn from each other by His Spirit when we communicate with each other like now. You cannot communicate with a book or video. There needs to be direct communication like we are doing in this forum. That is my understanding of, "to do good and communicate...".

It's an error in part in doctrine, but no reflection on your salvation. None of us consciously have all the answers, though all the answers already reside in us by the Holy Ghost. We just don't have access to it all at once as we simply cannot bear it now being yet carnal in this temporal flesh. The Holy Ghost gives us "in that hour" what we need, not what we think we need to teach some group of people on Sundays!

Assumptions born of agitation that we don't agree on this is where your at. And that is to be expected, as none of us are on the exact same page beyond "the first principles of the oracles of God". That is why it is so important to know what is "sound doctrine". Look at the contentions among the apostles when they were with Jesus. Jesus even rebuked them more than once. Why? First, because He loved them, as us, and secondly He is sent to do the will of the Father.

Eventually we will agree totally on all things, but not yet, though we have "the mind of Christ". We must be patient. "But let patience have her perfect work".

13  Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14  But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15  This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
16  For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.
17  But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
 James 3:13-18 (KJB)
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« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2013, 05:32:32 pm »

I desire to reply to your post BA, but first let's resolve the issue at hand before we get back into who Israel really is.
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« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2013, 08:53:12 pm »

Another thing that I think seals the deal of a post-trib rapture is what Jesus says in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21:

Matthew 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not,  (let him that readeth understand,)  then let them that be in Judæa flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:21  Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Keep in mind that Jesus is talking to His apostles here on how we will know the end is near. Jesus specifically mentions those in Judaea (the Jews, or Israel) as if they are only one part of a larger group. If the one-third of Israel were the only saved people on earth between the beginning of the tribulation and the end, Jesus wouldn't have been so specific with His words, and He wouldn't have singled them out of the larger group He was talking to/about (because they would BE the larger group).

I also think that most pre-trib adherents take 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9 completely out of context. Those verses read:

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

These verses, they say, prove that we must be taken before the tribulation starts because the seal, vial and trumpet judgments are God's wrath. As born again, Bible believing Christians, we are NOT appointed to wrath. But wrath, in these verses, is not the same wrath in those verses. Read these verses:

Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

This again mentions "the wrath to come", just like in 1 Thessalonians 1:10.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Notice here the wording that is used: "thy wrath is come". That "wrath to come" now "is come". And the explanation of what that wrath is paints pretty clearly that it is judgment and damnation.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Is John referring to the tribulation here? Well, let's ask ourselves this: In 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and John 3:36, what is the opposite of salvation/everlasting life? Is it great tribulation? Or is it damnation/everlasting torment? I think it's obvious now what wrath we aren't appointed to. Remember also:

Matthew 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

That doesn't mean that God will not shield us and make a way to escape. Remember, Jesus told us to pray that we are accounted worthy to ESCAPE these things and to stand before the Son of man.

Add that in with my other reasonings that I've posted (which, surprisingly, nobody has tried to disprove yet), and I think it pretty decisively points to a post-tribulation rapture/resurrection and subsequent being with Christ as His army at Armageddon. Now like I said, I'm not the purveyor of all knowledge. I don't know EXACTLY how it all plays out. But just by reading it for what it says, that's what I keep getting. Again though, I think in the end it'll happen the way it'll happen, regardless. I just want my brethren to be prepared.
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« Reply #87 on: May 15, 2013, 07:23:24 pm »

From now on, I'm gonna preface each post in this thread with this:

THIS IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE, AND I DON'T DESIRE FOR IT TO BE A DIVISIVE ONE, EITHER.

Read these verses:

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

The Beast, or Antichrist, when he takes power, will make war with the saints and overcome them. We, as born again Bible believers, are the saints. How can the Antichrist make war with us and overcome us if we aren't here when he is in power? These verses, among others, clearly show that we are here during the tribulation. The Church is here, along with Israel.

Let's read on in Revelation 14:14-19:
 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

There's that word "wrath" again. And again, it's in connection to damnation, as it says earlier in the chapter in verses 10 and 11.

Now let's compare that to Matthew 13:24-30:
 24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,  The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
 25  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
 26  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
 27  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
 28  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
 29  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
 30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

He tells his servants to wait until the harvest to gather up the wheat and tares. ALL OF THEM. AT THE SAME TIME.
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« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2013, 08:05:20 pm »

The Tribulation Saints are not the Church. The Trib Saints are saved AFTER the rapture of the Church. The Trib Saints will die for their testimony and have their heads cut off, or accept the MARK. The Bible is very clear on this. They are the souls that are kept under the alter until after the Trib.
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« Reply #89 on: May 15, 2013, 09:04:42 pm »

The Tribulation Saints are not the Church. The Trib Saints are saved AFTER the rapture of the Church. The Trib Saints will die for their testimony and have their heads cut off, or accept the MARK. The Bible is very clear on this. They are the souls that are kept under the alter until after the Trib.


Oh OK, now it's starting to make sense...

Jude 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


So the raptured (church age)saints are with the Lord in heaven.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


And not under the alter(5th seal).

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


Now I see where both the church age saints and the trib saints are distinguished differently. Thank you! Smiley
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