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Pre-trib rapture and antichrist

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Author Topic: Pre-trib rapture and antichrist  (Read 7504 times)
FervorForFaith
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« Reply #90 on: May 15, 2013, 10:06:48 pm »

The Tribulation Saints are not the Church. The Trib Saints are saved AFTER the rapture of the Church. The Trib Saints will die for their testimony and have their heads cut off, or accept the MARK. The Bible is very clear on this. They are the souls that are kept under the alter until after the Trib.

I mean no disrespect, Mark, but if it's so clear, then give me verse for it. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it in there, brother. You say "Oh, it's so clear!" "Oh, the Bible CLEARLY states this!" Yet you never give verse for it. Again, I mean absolutely no disrespect, but that's what I'm seeing.

And you still haven't refuted the verses I've quoted previously, nor Matthew 13.

And again, I ask the question: How can the "tribulation saints" get saved without the Holy Spirit? I'm sorry, but Jesus died on the cross for everyone of EVERY time period. Not just the "age of grace" but for ALL. He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. It was always God's plan to have it that way. The Holy Spirit HAS to be present for a person to be saved. No matter when they get saved. You aren't saved without Him. No one is EVER saved by "works". Not back in Old Testament days, not now, and not ever. The prophets and the Jews back then weren't saved by keeping the sabbath, keeping the passover, doing this, doing that, etc. Paul points this out in I believe Romans as well as Hebrews. By the works of the law no man is justified. They were saved by their faith that God's commandments and words were truth, so they followed them.

Even not taking the mark. That is not what saves you. It is the faith to believe God's Word that saves you, not the "work" of refusing the mark. You do the "work" because of your FAITH. It's works following, not works preceding.

And to answer your question from the other thread:

You don't think God is entirely capable of doing the rapture, the resurrection, the Second Coming and the arrival of the army of heaven all within a very short time? I'm not confused, I just think pre-trib proponents tend to put God in a box. God created the universe, He can have the rapture take place moments before the battle of Armageddon. It is entirely within His abilities.

Again, nobody is unsaved by believing one way or the other. It may just be one of those things where I believe one way and you believe another. We're both saved, and one will be wrong. I want everyone to be prepared, either way.
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Christian40
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« Reply #91 on: May 16, 2013, 03:34:56 am »

Quote from: FervorForFaith
And again, I ask the question: How can the "tribulation saints" get saved without the Holy Spirit?

Revelation 7:
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

By having the seal of the living God.

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Mark
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« Reply #92 on: May 16, 2013, 04:20:38 am »



And again, I ask the question: How can the "tribulation saints" get saved without the Holy Spirit?

Where did i ever say this? I never said that. The Holy Spirit never leaves, if He did than no one would get saved.

Quote
Even not taking the mark. That is not what saves you. It is the faith to believe God's Word that saves you, not the "work" of refusing the mark. You do the "work" because of your FAITH. It's works following, not works preceding.

Not taking the mark will not save you either. You still have to accept Jesus. But if you do take the Mark than your done. period. So it is a work during the Tribulation. You have to accept Jesus and NOT take the Mark. It is not the same as now.

Quote
You don't think God is entirely capable of doing the rapture, the resurrection, the Second Coming and the arrival of the army of heaven all within a very short time? I'm not confused, I just think pre-trib proponents tend to put God in a box. God created the universe, He can have the rapture take place moments before the battle of Armageddon. It is entirely within His abilities.

The Lord can do anything, i havent put him in any box. Its just what he said he was going to do. We are raptured around the start of theTrib, then we are on horses with the Lord in Heaven before he descends to Earth. You have to make that work, not me, because that is what the scripture states. Your the one with the problem of being in 2 places at once. Not me and the Bible.

For pre trib it all works out, no confusion. For everything else, it does not work and is nothing but confusion.

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I mean no disrespect, Mark, but if it's so clear, then give me verse for it.

verse for what exactly? The Trib Saints? you posted them your self.
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Mark
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« Reply #93 on: May 16, 2013, 04:27:26 am »

Oh OK, now it's starting to make sense...

Jude 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


So the raptured (church age)saints are with the Lord in heaven.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


And not under the alter(5th seal).

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


Now I see where both the church age saints and the trib saints are distinguished differently. Thank you! Smiley

Yes there is a difference.

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

 Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.


We come back with the Lord, all the Grace Age Saints. The Trib Saints are raised AFTER the Tribulation. You cant be raised after if your coming back with Jesus. We will be in Heaven, on horses with the Lord, and we get to come back with him and watch him execute judgment on the Earth.
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« Reply #94 on: May 16, 2013, 05:13:03 am »

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The Holy Spirit HAS to be present for a person to be saved. No matter when they get saved. You aren't saved without Him. No one is EVER saved by "works". Not back in Old Testament days, not now, and not ever.

And that is your problem with understanding the situation. No, I disagree, the Spirit was not available to men as it is since Jesus ascended. Things were by works then, as the Spirit was not available to men as it is now. Yes, they had faith, but the faith they had was in "keeping the commandments", which was done by their Judaic worship, which is a work of the law.

I understand your misunderstanding, as the situation does involve faith of the person under the works of the law. They have faith in the law itself, not the Spirit to save them because they weren't given the Spirit to save them. They were under the law, not grace.

As Abraham "believed God" and it was counted to him for righteousness, it was indeed faith by Abraham, but he still acted on faith in his works of believing God, as salvation by grace via the Spirit did not come till AFTER Jesus ascended.

39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:39,40 (KJB)


And why did they not "receive the promise"? They did not have the Holy Ghost in them. They lived under the works of the law by faith in the commandments of God.

It's a subtle difference, but it is different. Till Jesus ascended, we did not have the Holy Ghost. While the Spirit was around from the beginning, it was not given to men yet as part of salvation.

16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17  [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:16,17 (KJB)


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« Reply #95 on: May 16, 2013, 05:33:13 am »

The Lord can do anything, i havent put him in any box. Its just what he said he was going to do. We are raptured around the start of theTrib, then we are on horses with the Lord in Heaven before he descends to Earth. You have to make that work, not me, because that is what the scripture states. Your the one with the problem of being in 2 places at once. Not me and the Bible.

Scripture does NOT state this. I'm sorry, friend, but it doesn't. I understand wanting to believe a pre-trib, it's a lot nicer thing to believe than a post-trib, but it just isn't there. I can see how you can come to a pre-trib conclusion in a couple verses (if you squint real hard, you can see it Cheesy), but the overwhelming majority point to a post-trib.

Quote
verse for what exactly? The Trib Saints? you posted them your self.

It doesn't state that in the verse I quoted. I want you to post verses that prove that it is talking SPECIFICALLY about "trib saints" and not just saints in general.

And again, you STILL haven't refuted the multiple verses I quoted earlier...

Quote
39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:39,40 (KJB)

The promise isn't the Holy Spirit.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Among others...
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« Reply #96 on: May 16, 2013, 05:44:08 am »

Scripture does NOT state this. I'm sorry, friend, but it doesn't. I understand wanting to believe a pre-trib, it's a lot nicer thing to believe than a post-trib, but it just isn't there. I can see how you can come to a pre-trib conclusion in a couple verses (if you squint real hard, you can see it Cheesy), but the overwhelming majority point to a post-trib.


Yes it does, that’s why there isn’t any confusion in what the Bible says about the Rapture. Because it is pre trib, if its post trib there is all kinds of problems that you cannot fix. Like being in heaven on horses and getting raised on earth. It doesn’t work, thus confusion, and the Lord isn’t the god of confusion. Your idea does not work. sorry.

Luke 23:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Worthy to ESCAPE and to STAND BEFORE the Son of Man. That does not fit with post trib.  Cheesy too much confusion. That verse works perfectly as pre trib, as that is what it is. Hey make the parable of the 10 virgins fit post trib. can’t do it. Make the wedding feats fit post trib, can’t do it. too much confusion.
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« Reply #97 on: May 16, 2013, 06:34:07 am »


It doesn't state that in the verse I quoted. I want you to post verses that prove that it is talking SPECIFICALLY about "trib saints" and not just saints in general.


Yes they did, as these are those whom go through the Tribulation. Hence the Tribulation Saints. They will have to loose ther heads and give a testimony, we do not have to do that today. During the Trib they will. The Antichrist will be over them, not so today. Again so much confusion with post trib, there will be millions that come to Christ in the minutes after the Rapture. Now they have to endure. Not so for those of us today.

“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto everyone of them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled” – (Rev.6:9-11).

“9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death” – (Rev.12:11).

And here is a very good verse on the distinction of the Saint and Trib Saint

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You have 2 groups of people here. Those on the thrones who Judge and those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, we did not and will not do that. We are those who are on the thrones 1 Cor 6-2. These are 2 seperate groups of people. The Saints from the Rapture and the Trib Saints. again. no confusion, fits perfectly.

Who are these 2 groups in your post trib world?
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« Reply #98 on: May 16, 2013, 07:55:17 am »

FFF - when you get a chance, definitely look up quotes from New Age Movement minion leaders like Benjamin Crème, Barbara Max Hubbard, Bill Lambert, David Icke, etc - even they have said they expect "disappearances" when their New Age "Christ" makes his appearance. There's also a DVD uploaded on youtube titled "New Order Barbarians" where a doctor had a closed door meeting in the 1960's with a Planned Parenthood director, who spilled every little detail of the NWO agenda. At the very end of the interview, he said when this "new system" gets unveiled, the "resisters" are going to be "disappeared". And come to think of it too, Lambert said the Illuminati minions already have an "explanation" prepared for all of these "disappearances".

And to boot - the Catholic Church's doctrine believes in a post-trib rapture. In their Catechisms, they said the church would go through great tribulation(I'll post the link later).

Anyhow - thought I found this interesting, as this is not only what THEY'RE saying, but it's NOT like the audience they're speaking to is Christians(but to their New Age Movement et al followers).
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« Reply #99 on: May 16, 2013, 07:03:44 pm »

FFF - when you get a chance, definitely look up quotes from New Age Movement minion leaders like Benjamin Crème, Barbara Max Hubbard, Bill Lambert, David Icke, etc - even they have said they expect "disappearances" when their New Age "Christ" makes his appearance. There's also a DVD uploaded on youtube titled "New Order Barbarians" where a doctor had a closed door meeting in the 1960's with a Planned Parenthood director, who spilled every little detail of the NWO agenda. At the very end of the interview, he said when this "new system" gets unveiled, the "resisters" are going to be "disappeared". And come to think of it too, Lambert said the Illuminati minions already have an "explanation" prepared for all of these "disappearances".

And to boot - the Catholic Church's doctrine believes in a post-trib rapture. In their Catechisms, they said the church would go through great tribulation(I'll post the link later).

Anyhow - thought I found this interesting, as this is not only what THEY'RE saying, but it's NOT like the audience they're speaking to is Christians(but to their New Age Movement et al followers).

The Catholic Church doesn't teach post-trib rapture. They don't even really believe in a rapture. In the 15 years that I was a Catholic, I never heard once about any kind of rapture, or the tribulation for that matter. I vividly remember watching EWTN and the priest/monk guy emphatically stating to a caller that there was no such thing as a rapture. So how can they believe in a post-trib rapture if they don't even believe in a rapture at all? And in the year or so that I was a New Ager, I never heard about any of that, either. Not saying they don't teach it, but I never heard it, and I used to pray to Sanat Kumara and contemplate the image of Maitreya's hand (which is why I'm so intent on exposing New Age for the Luciferic one-world cult that it is and Maitreya as, imo, the most likely candidate for Antichrist. But that's a topic for a different time).

And in regards to the thrones in Revelation 20:4...

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The key to this verse, I think, is that the group on the thrones is called "they", but nothing else. It isn't until one sentence later that John explains who this group is. John saw thrones, and an unnamed group sat and judged. Then John saw their souls, who were beheaded/killed because of their faith. And this group of people lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I'll admit, I may be wrong here, but it doesn't seem right to just not identify the group on the thrones in the entire chapter. I can't think of a single time in the Bible when something prophetic isn't identified in some way in the chapter its in. Babylon is that great city. The beast has the number of his name, and the 7 heads and ten horns. The false prophet has two horns like a lamb but speaks as a dragon. Etc etc etc. Here, it literally just says "they" sat on the thrones and judgement was given to them.

Quote
Luke 23:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Why would we need to pray that we are worthy to go up in the pre-trib rapture? We would simply because we are saved. And why would we need to be able to withstand in the evil day if we won't even BE HERE in the evil day? The evil day being the day of the Lord. It doesn't make sense.

If I'm indeed wrong, I want to be proven wrong. Not just told that I'm wrong. "... lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:6)

And yet again, you STILL haven't addressed any of the verses I quoted previously. Explain Matthew 13 and its relation to Revelation 14. Or 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 2:8 being in reference to the same exact event: Jesus Christ's "coming". While we're at it, why not explain Revelation 14:1 and its relation to Zechariah 14:4-5.

I really hate talking about this topic, because all it does is divide saved people. And unfortunately, it's almost always the pre-trib proponents that get unnecessarily offended when someone brings up post-trib as a possibility. It happens ALL THE TIME at my church (which is non-501c3 fundamental Baptist). My pastors (we've got like 10 of them Cheesy) are almost ready to kick me out because I bring up these verses to them. What time the rapture happens is not a salvation issue, it never was and never will be.

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« Reply #100 on: May 17, 2013, 04:14:55 am »

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In the 15 years that I was a Catholic

Please elaborate, as in when did you reject the RCC and become born-again and why, what church group did you go to after the RCC, and how old are you now?

I found these comments, and I thought maybe we need some more details, as it might explain some of your confusion.

http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,8216.msg31259.html#msg31259

It does matter, because how you were raised, starting with your parents having you christened as a baby, shows me you were in a typical Catholic household. That influence doesn't just go away.

You have a ton of baggage to get rid of in your thinking. Becoming born-again does free you of it all, but, you MUST search for Jesus with ALL your heart.
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« Reply #101 on: May 17, 2013, 05:43:32 am »

The Catholic Church doesn't teach post-trib rapture. They don't even really believe in a rapture. In the 15 years that I was a Catholic, I never heard once about any kind of rapture, or the tribulation for that matter. I vividly remember watching EWTN and the priest/monk guy emphatically stating to a caller that there was no such thing as a rapture. So how can they believe in a post-trib rapture if they don't even believe in a rapture at all? And in the year or so that I was a New Ager, I never heard about any of that, either. Not saying they don't teach it, but I never heard it, and I used to pray to Sanat Kumara and contemplate the image of Maitreya's hand (which is why I'm so intent on exposing New Age for the Luciferic one-world cult that it is and Maitreya as, imo, the most likely candidate for Antichrist. But that's a topic for a different time).

There is a reason they do not teach it. Just like there is a reason they pray to a false gods and worship statues and men.

Catholics teach Post-Tribulation Rapture
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,1094.0.html

sorry but you cant learn about the whole new-age in a year. It takes years of study and reading to get it down. Kind of like studying the Bible, it takes years. If you want to know more about the new-age explanation of the rapture read here.

The New Earth, book 2 Chapter 4,5,6 and 7 if i remember right... pray before reading as these are channeled messages.
Book II: THE EARTH CHANGES,
    Chapter 4: Cleansing Planet Earth
    Chapter 5: The Higher Plan
    Chapter 6: Time for Choice
    Chapter 7: The Flying Saucers
http://www.thenewearth.org/

Scary stuff there.

Quote
And in regards to the thrones in Revelation 20:4...

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The key to this verse, I think, is that the group on the thrones is called "they", but nothing else. It isn't until one sentence later that John explains who this group is. John saw thrones, and an unnamed group sat and judged. Then John saw their souls, who were beheaded/killed because of their faith. And this group of people lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The key to the verses is the comas and colon and; and. He sees thrones and the people on them are sitting in judgment. AND, meaning in addition too, he sees all these Tribulation Saints. So he sees 2 separate groups of people. The AND makes this distinction very well.

Quote
I'll admit, I may be wrong here, but it doesn't seem right to just not identify the group on the thrones in the entire chapter. I can't think of a single time in the Bible when something prophetic isn't identified in some way in the chapter its in. Babylon is that great city. The beast has the number of his name, and the 7 heads and ten horns. The false prophet has two horns like a lamb but speaks as a dragon. Etc etc etc. Here, it literally just says "they" sat on the thrones and judgement was given to them.

That is a good question, just who are these people? See if you have the Pre Trib view it all fits, as we are to sit in Judgment. If you have a post trib view there is confusion and stuff just doesn't fit and it has to be worked around. I would think that, that alone would make you question.

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Luke 23:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Why would we need to pray that we are worthy to go up in the pre-trib rapture? We would simply because we are saved. And why would we need to be able to withstand in the evil day if we won't even BE HERE in the evil day? The evil day being the day of the Lord. It doesn't make sense.

well for starters your mixing a lot of stuff up together that doesn't go together. Mike Hoggard does that, a lot. Jesus in Luke 23 is telling you to pray to escape, you have to pray to be saved, once saved you will escape and stand before the Son of Man.

Rev 6:17 is a general question, The Great Day of Wrath has finally come, who can stand before it? That is a question for the whole world, not the individual Christian. This time that has now began the Lord has been talking about for thousands of years, here it is, who can stand against God in his wrath? He is going to level the planet, kill all the trees and grass, turn all the water into blood, break up all the lands move every island. Ya WHO can stand against that?

The Evil day in Eph is about the normal every day stuff we face. We are to put on the whole armor of God EVERYDAY. And the evil day is not the Day of the Lord. Where did you come by that? Gods Wrath is a JUDGMENT it isnt evil. It is Holy Holy Holy. You really need to think on that one.

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If I'm indeed wrong, I want to be proven wrong. Not just told that I'm wrong. "... lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:6)

you will at the Rapture. but no worries that is why 1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

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And yet again, you STILL haven't addressed any of the verses I quoted previously. Explain Matthew 13 and its relation to Revelation 14. Or 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 2:8 being in reference to the same exact event: Jesus Christ's "coming". While we're at it, why not explain Revelation 14:1 and its relation to Zechariah 14:4-5.

my times limited at times, list them individually and i will strive to answer them, doing big bunches of stuff like this gets to confusing. It is way easier to do 1 or 2 things at a time.

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I really hate talking about this topic, because all it does is divide saved people. And unfortunately, it's almost always the pre-trib proponents that get unnecessarily offended when someone brings up post-trib

only 1 can be right, not 2 or 3. And if its something that the Catholic church teaches against, well its almost 100% true then.  Cheesy

Quote
as a possibility. It happens ALL THE TIME at my church (which is non-501c3 fundamental Baptist). My pastors (we've got like 10 of them ) are almost ready to kick me out because I bring up these verses to them. What time the rapture happens is not a salvation issue, it never was and never will be.

How can a body function with 10 heads?
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« Reply #102 on: May 17, 2013, 08:52:48 am »

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as a possibility. It happens ALL THE TIME at my church (which is non-501c3 fundamental Baptist). My pastors (we've got like 10 of them ) are almost ready to kick me out because I bring up these verses to them. What time the rapture happens is not a salvation issue, it never was and never will be.

Just curious - does your church have a bank account in its name? Do they have by laws? Do they have business meetings? Are donations to them tax deductible? If so, these are only a couple of examples, then they are 501c3s. The church I go to(just tag along with my parents), I thought it wasn't a 501c3 b/c it wasn't listed on the IRS web site, but the IRS doesn't list every single organization that's tax-exempt - but then I found out the other stuff(bank account in its name, by laws, etc).

And I'm sure you're familiar with Pastor Sam Adams(who's a good friend of Scott) - his church isn't a 501c3, and when I sent in a tiny donation a couple of years ago, I didn't have to make out the check to the name of his church.

For the most part, from my own experiences, pastors seem to be very sensitive when you approach them with this question. I emailed a couple of them in my area a couple of years ago(when looking for a KJV-only church), and they didn't respond. On another occasion when I called, the response was "Yep! We sure are!"(and he seemed anxious to get off of the phone). I'm not saying your church leadership is dishonest or anything, but again, it seems to be a sensitive issue with pastors for the most part when approached with this question, and would be best doing the research on your own.

501c3 thread
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,530.0.html

Ohio Secretary of State's web site - link to looking up 501c3s
http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/pls/bsqry/f?p=100:1
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« Reply #103 on: May 17, 2013, 12:55:37 pm »

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I'll admit, I may be wrong here, but it doesn't seem right to just not identify the group on the thrones in the entire chapter.

Those on the thrones are identified...(I believe Revelation 20:4 is explained here)

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28 (KJB)
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« Reply #104 on: May 17, 2013, 02:00:48 pm »

Those on the thrones are identified...(I believe Revelation 20:4 is explained here)

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28 (KJB)

bold and underline emphasis mine

Now this is making more and more sense - excellent find to the Matthew 19:28 verse linking to the Revelation 20:4 verse! Smiley

Thank you everyone for helping to divide the word of truth with this discussion!
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« Reply #105 on: May 17, 2013, 04:14:19 pm »

Those on the thrones are identified...(I believe Revelation 20:4 is explained here)

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28 (KJB)

I believe that verse is strictly for the 12 Apostles as it goes with the 12 gates of New Jerusalem. Just who is that 12th name?  Wink

A much better verse to back up Rev 24:4 is

1Co 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

backed by,

Dan 7:22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

see, it all fits if you follow the pre trib rapture. NO confusion.
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« Reply #106 on: May 17, 2013, 04:17:51 pm »

I believe that verse is strictly for the 12 Apostles as it goes with the 12 gates of New Jerusalem. Just who is that 12th name?  Wink

A much better verse to back up Rev 24:4 is

1Co 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

backed by,

Dan 7:22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

see, it all fits if you follow the pre trib rapture. NO confusion.

The 12th one is Paul, right?

Again, this is making much, much more sense now.
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« Reply #107 on: May 17, 2013, 04:40:19 pm »

FYI, about that Margaret MacDonald "vision" about a pre-trib rapture(b/c supposedly she was dabbling into the occult)...

1) Her vision was actually that of a POST-TRIB rapture, b/c apparently she held to the Historicism view(which itself is false).
http://apostasynow.com/topics/trib/pretrib08.html

2) Another thing, she NEVER met John Nelson Darby(supposedly it was Darby that got this "revelation" from her) - otherwise, Darby would have mentioned her name in his 1500 pages of writings.

http://apostasynow.com/topics/trib/pretrib08.html

Edit - with #2 - not sure which is the correct report, but it was either Darby never meeting MacDonald, or Darby crossing paths with her but REJECTING her "vision". The link says the latter, but I read another source that says they never met. Either way, Darby didn't want anything to do with MM.
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« Reply #108 on: May 17, 2013, 08:48:05 pm »

There is a reason they do not teach it. Just like there is a reason they pray to a false gods and worship statues and men.

Catholics teach Post-Tribulation Rapture
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,1094.0.html

If they do believe it, then they don't teach it. They hide it in a closet somewhere, because I had NEVER heard of a rapture until I got saved.

You yourself admitted that they BANNED the rapture (any rapture) in 400 AD.

http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,4777.0.html

They are amillennial, wheareas we are premillennial.

Also: Even if they did teach post-tribulation rapture, them teaching it doesn't necessarily make it wrong scripturally.

Catholics believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. Since they teach it, it must be wrong!

Catholics believe that Jesus walked on water and turned water into wine. Since they teach it, it must be wrong!

Catholics believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. Since they teach it, it must be wrong!

Now yes, Catholicism is wicked and evil and nobody will ever be saved by that abomination of a religion (or any religion for that matter, Jesus saves us). But there is almost ALWAYS truth mixed in with lies. Another example is the Jehovah's Witnesses. They have everything wrong except the holidays being pagan and Jesus didn't have long hair.

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sorry but you cant learn about the whole new-age in a year. It takes years of study and reading to get it down. Kind of like studying the Bible, it takes years. If you want to know more about the new-age explanation of the rapture read here.

The New Earth, book 2 Chapter 4,5,6 and 7 if i remember right... pray before reading as these are channeled messages.
Book II: THE EARTH CHANGES,
    Chapter 4: Cleansing Planet Earth
    Chapter 5: The Higher Plan
    Chapter 6: Time for Choice
    Chapter 7: The Flying Saucers
http://www.thenewearth.org/

Scary stuff there.

Never said I did, Mark. If you read my post, I said "Not saying they don't teach it, but I never heard it..."

I realize I wasn't in it for that long, and I never said they didn't teach it. But in the time that I was, I never heard a peep about it.

Quote
The key to the verses is the comas and colon and; and. He sees thrones and the people on them are sitting in judgment. AND, meaning in addition too, he sees all these Tribulation Saints. So he sees 2 separate groups of people. The AND makes this distinction very well.

That is a good question, just who are these people? See if you have the Pre Trib view it all fits, as we are to sit in Judgment. If you have a post trib view there is confusion and stuff just doesn't fit and it has to be worked around. I would think that, that alone would make you question.

You quoted this verse to back up your point.

Dan 7:22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

However, this would contradict Revelation 20:4. In Revelation 20, only those on the thrones judged. "The souls of them" did not judge. If those on the thrones and "the souls of them" are two different groups, then not all the saints were given judgment. The "tribulation saints" as you put it are just as much saints as we are, no? So naturally, they should have a throne and judge, too. But if we go by your interpretation of this passage, then they don't get to judge, and this passage would be false.

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well for starters your mixing a lot of stuff up together that doesn't go together. Mike Hoggard does that, a lot. Jesus in Luke 23 is telling you to pray to escape, you have to pray to be saved, once saved you will escape and stand before the Son of Man.

Rev 6:17 is a general question, The Great Day of Wrath has finally come, who can stand before it? That is a question for the whole world, not the individual Christian. This time that has now began the Lord has been talking about for thousands of years, here it is, who can stand against God in his wrath? He is going to level the planet, kill all the trees and grass, turn all the water into blood, break up all the lands move every island. Ya WHO can stand against that?

Or it could just as easily mean escape the wars/plagues/executions/etc that will kill a lot of people and survive to see the beginning of the second coming of our Lord.

Quote
The Evil day in Eph is about the normal every day stuff we face. We are to put on the whole armor of God EVERYDAY. And the evil day is not the Day of the Lord. Where did you come by that? Gods Wrath is a JUDGMENT it isnt evil. It is Holy Holy Holy. You really need to think on that one.

I made mention to this before:

"Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light." (Amos 5:20)

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)

"Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;" (Amos 6:3)

"The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly." (Zephaniah 1:14)

It says it throughout scripture. The day of the Lord = the day of evil, or the evil day. Other names for it include day of destruction, day of Christ, second coming of Christ, etc.

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you will at the Rapture. but no worries that is why 1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Just saying. I very well might be wrong, but don't boast. But anyway, you just continually saying "You're confused" or "You're wrong" doesn't help me or you. It'd be like screaming "You're wrong!" to a Jehovah's Witness and not explaining how or why they are wrong. They won't listen to you.

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only 1 can be right, not 2 or 3. And if its something that the Catholic church teaches against, well its almost 100% true then.  Cheesy

To be fair, the Catholic church teaches (usually) against abortion and sodomy. Does that mean those are almost 100% ok then?

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How can a body function with 10 heads?

That's a great question.

And btw, BornAgain2, I'm not historicist (to my knowledge), and I don't think any of you are, either. I just place the rapture at a different time than you guys.

John Darby was a British East India Company guy, and the BEIC has historically been a tool of the Illuminati. So even if you are pre-trib, I wouldn't go to him for your doctrine.

I'm pretty much done talking about this topic (I'm not huge on debating it nowadays), because we're pretty much getting nowhere with it. If you want to check out the scriptures I posted earlier, feel free.
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« Reply #109 on: May 18, 2013, 01:46:50 am »

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Just who is that 12th name?

Ah, THAT debate!  Wink

Is it Paul?, or is it...

"And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Acts 1:26 (KJB)
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« Reply #110 on: May 18, 2013, 01:49:09 am »

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I'm pretty much done talking about this topic (I'm not huge on debating it nowadays), because we're pretty much getting nowhere with it. If you want to check out the scriptures I posted earlier, feel free.

And that is why I usually preface any discussion on this topic that I believe it's more than a point of contention that anything. Better to not debate it, as you said, it's not salvation-dependent to know which is correct. Better to look for things which make for peace.
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« Reply #111 on: July 13, 2013, 10:22:13 am »

I've been seeing more of these "stories" lately in the MSM. It just got me thinking how maybe they're using these propaganda stories to explain away the rapture of the dead in Christ to those left behind when the AC is revealed(ie-to "explain" those "opened" graves).

http://news.yahoo.com/vampire-graves-uncovered-poland-181147837.html
'Vampire' Graves Uncovered in Poland
7/12/13

Archaeologists in Poland believe they've made a startling discovery: a group of vampire graves.

The graves were discovered during the construction of a roadway near the Polish town of Gliwice, where archaeologists are more accustomed to finding the remains of World War II soldiers, according to The Telegraph.

But instead of soldiers, the graves contained skeletons whose heads had been severed and placed on their legs. This indicated to the archaeologists that the bodies had been subject to a ritualized execution designed to ensure the dead stayed dead, The Telegraph reports. [Famous Fangs: Tales of Our Favorite Vampires]

By keeping the head separated from the body, according to ancient superstition, the "undead" wouldn't be able to rise from the grave to terrorize the living. Decapitation was one way of achieving that; another way was hanging the person by a rope attached to the neck until, over time, the decaying body simply separated from the head.

There were other, equally bizarre ways of dealing with vampire burials, according to research published by forensic anthropologist Matteo Borrini. He cites the case of a woman who died during a 16th-century plague in Venice, Italy. The woman was apparently buried with a brick wedged tightly in her open mouth, a popular medieval method of keeping suspected vampires from returning to feed on the blood of the living. The woman's grave might be the earliest known vampire burial ever found.

Hers was a typical case of an accusation of vampirism following some calamity, such as a plague or a devastating crop failure. Accusing an individual of being a vampire was a not-uncommon way of finding a scapegoat for an otherwise unexplained disaster.

In other cases, the body of a suspected vampire might be staked to the ground, pinning the corpse into place with a stake made of metal or wood. In 2012, archaeologists in Bulgaria found two skeletons with iron rods piercing their chests, indicating they may have been considered vampires.

The practice of decapitating the bodies of suspected vampires before burial was common in Slavic countries during the early Christian era, when pagan beliefs were still widespread.

In fact, their belief in vampires stemmed from both superstition about death and lack of knowledge about decomposition. Most vampire stories of history tend to follow a certain pattern where an individual or family dies of some unfortunate event or disease; before science could explain such deaths, the people chose to blame them on "vampires."

Villagers have also mistaken ordinary decomposition processes for the supernatural. "For example, though laypeople might assume that a body would decompose immediately, if the coffin is well sealed and buried in winter, putrefaction might be delayed by weeks or months; intestinal decomposition creates bloating which can force blood up into the mouth, making it look like a dead body has recently sucked blood," writes LiveScience's Bad Science columnist Benjamin Radford. "These processes are well understood by modern doctors and morticians, but in medieval Europe were taken as unmistakable signs that vampires were real and existed among them."

There's no consensus yet on when the bodies found in Poland were buried. According to Jacek Pierzak, one of the archaeologists on the site, the skeletons were found with no jewelry, belt buckles, buttons or any other artifacts that might assist in providing a burial date.
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« Reply #112 on: August 18, 2013, 09:19:19 pm »

I've been seeing more of these "stories" lately in the MSM. It just got me thinking how maybe they're using these propaganda stories to explain away the rapture of the dead in Christ to those left behind when the AC is revealed(ie-to "explain" those "opened" graves).

We'll still be here when the antichrist is revealed. Whether you're pre, mid, post or whatever.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thessalonians 2:3)



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« Reply #113 on: September 08, 2013, 11:28:14 pm »

http://movies.yahoo.com/news/seth-rogen-raunchy-end-doing-back-theaters-211132079.html
What’s Seth Rogen’s Raunchy ‘This is The End’ Doing Back in Theaters?
9/8/13

What’s Seth Rogen’s Raunchy ‘This is The End’ Doing Back in Theaters?

Sony this weekend re-released its raunchy Seth Rogen comedy “This is the End,” which came out in June, so that it could hit the $100 million mark in domestic grosses.

It’s doing the trick. After bringing in $2 million from 2,161 theaters it’s at $98.9 million, leaving it just a little more than $1 million shy of the box-office benchmark.

It should pass the mark sometime this week, and it will be the fifth summer comedy to do so. Fox’s Melissa McCarthy-Sandra Bullock buddy tale “The Heat” ($157 million), Sony’s Adam Sandler sequel “Grown Ups 2” ($130 million) and Warner Bros.’ “We’re the Millers” ($123 million) and “The Hangover Part III” ($112 million) have already done it.

With a production budget of $32 million and $116 million in worldwide grosses, “This Is the End” is clearly a financial winner for Sony. But bragging rights are nice, particularly since Sony had a tough summer with high-priced disappointments “After Earth” and “White House Down.”

Evan Goldberg co-wrote and directed with Rogen. Jay Baruchel, Danny McBride, Craig Robinson, Michael Cera and Emma Watson co-starred in the R-rated tale of young celebs partying hearty as the world ends.

The re-release of “This Is the End” likely got a boost from the recent TV airing of “The Comedy Central Roast of James Franco.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They rarely re-release movies for this reason(so that it can reach a certain benchmark) - the reasons why are rather obvious why, IOW.
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« Reply #114 on: September 15, 2013, 09:33:58 pm »

OK, I'm not saying is Putin is the Antichrist. But as we've discussed here, the AC could very well rise to fame and popularity on the world stage before the rapture(as 2nd The 2 may be disccusing just that). So far, it seems like Putin is getting a growing number of that. Even Infowars and the Christian Post sites have written flattering articles about him recently.

TIME magazine puts Putin on the front cover in every world market(Europe, ME, Africa, Asia, and South Pacific) EXCEPT for the USA.http://content.time.com/time/magazine/asia/0,9263,501130916,00.html

http://www.infowars.com/putin-steps-into-world-leadership-role/
Putin Steps Into World Leadership Role

Excerpt:
Quote

Most of Putin’s critics are too intellectually challenged to comprehend that Putin’s brilliant and humane article has left Putin the leader of the free world and defender of the rule of law and exposed Obama for what he is–the leader of a rogue, lawless, unaccountable government committed to lies and war crimes.

Putin, being diplomatic, was very careful in his criticism of Obama’s September 10 speech in which Obama sought to justify Washington’s lawlessness in terms of “American exceptionalism.” Obama, attempting to lift his criminal regime by the bootstraps up into the moral heavens, claimed that United States government policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.”

What Obama told Americans is exactly what Hitler told the Germans. The Russians, having borne more than anyone else the full weight of the German war machine, know how dangerous it is to encourage people to think of themselves as exceptional, unbound by law, the Geneva Conventions, the UN Security Council, and humane concerns for others. Putin reminded Obama that “God created us equal.”

If Putin had wanted to give Obama the full rebuke that Obama deserves, Putin could have said: “Obama is correct that the policy of the US government is what makes the US exceptional. The US is the only country in the world that has attacked 8 countries in 12 years, murdering and dispossessing millions of Muslims all on the basis of lies. This is not an exceptionalism of which to be proud.”

Putin is obviously more than a match for the immoral, low grade morons that Americans put into high office. However, Putin should not underestimate the mendacity of his enemies in Washington. Putin warned that the militants that Washington is breeding in the Middle East are an issue of deep concern. When these militants return to their own countries, they spread destabilization, as when extremists used by the US in the overthrow of Libya moved on to Mali.



Again, I'm not saying he's the guy. But nonetheless, WATCH.
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« Reply #115 on: September 23, 2013, 01:22:28 pm »

http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/the-secret-american-subculture-of-putin-worshippers-20130919
The Secret American Subculture of Putin-Worshippers

The Russian president has his fans here—who see him as the very epitome of macho manliness.

9/19/13

Two years ago, Gayne C. Young, a Texas-based writer and blogger for Outdoor Life, scored the interview of a lifetime. As a beat writer, Young had enjoyed the outdoor exploits of Russian President Vladimir Putin, who has been documented shooting a gray whale with a crossbow, tranquilizing a tiger attacking a news crew, hunting shirtless, fishing shirtless, and riding horseback shirtless. On a personal level, Young liked the rugged brand of masculinity that seemed a throwback to Teddy Roosevelt. "Although you have Clinton shooting ducks, you never see it. Although Rick Perry says he enjoys hunting, you don't see it. They say they do, but they don't. Obama says he shoots skeet, but they only released one picture," Young says. "Here's a guy out there fishing, with no qualms. He's like, 'You don't like it? Tough.' Then he'd escalate and do more."

His posts on Putin brought in great traffic, so his editor kept encouraging him to escalate. Soon, Young was declaring his "man crush" on the Russian president. ("I hate to use that word, especially on a hunting website," he admits.) He called the Russian consulate, flirted with the right secretary, and went through "hoop after hoop after hoop" until, one Friday, a press attaché called and told him the president wanted his questions in the next 20 minutes.

Young scrambled and sent something over. Six weeks later, Putin replied with an almost unbelievable 8,000-word missive—covering everything from tiger conservation to his favorite works of Hemingway to the innate frailty of human life. He lectured on the similarities between Russians and Americans, and demurred from answering Young's friendliest questions. ("Are you the coolest man in politics?") "People really liked him, at least on our comments section on Outdoor Life," Young says. "Given the demographics of the readership, most are die-hard Republicans," and when they saw Putin hunting, he says, "they were like, 'Obama wouldn't do that.' "

Putinphilia is not, of course, the predominant position of the conservative movement. But in certain corners of the Internet, adoration for the leader of America's No. 1 frenemy is unexceptional. They are not his countrymen, Russian expats, or any of the other regional allies you might expect to find allied with the Russian leader. Some, like Young and his readers, are earnest outdoorsy types who like Putin's Rough Rider sensibility. Others more cheekily admire Putin's cult of masculinity and claim relative indifference to the political stances—the anti-Americanism, the support for leaders like Bashar al-Assad, the oppression of minorities, gays, journalists, dissidents, independent-minded oligarchs—that drive most Americans mad. A few even arrive at their Putin admiration through a strange brew of antipathy to everything they think President Obama stands for, a reflexive distrust of what the government and media tells them, and political beliefs that go unrepresented by either of the main American political parties.

They utterly perplex many observers of the Russian-American relationship. "No clue as to what drives it, other than some form of illness," says Russian-born novelist Gary Shteyngart, author of Absurdistan.

There are many faux Putin fans in America—those who mock the hero worship ironically or half-ironically. But plenty of his fans are serious. Three months ago, Americans for Putin, a Facebook group, sprang up "for Americans who admire many of the policies and the leadership style of Russian President Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin" and think he "sounds better than the Republicrat establishment." The group has an eight-point policy platform calling for "a unified [American] national culture," a "firm stance against Israeli imperialism," and an opposition to the political correctness it says dominates Washington. Though that group is relatively small (167 likes as of Wednesday afternoon, ticking up every few hours), the Obama's-so-bad-Putin-almost-looks-good sentiment can be found on plenty of conservative message boards. Earlier this year, when Putin supposedly caught—and kissed—a 46-pound pike fish, posters on Free Republic, a major grassroots message board for the Right, were overwhelmingly pro-Putin:

"I wonder what photoup [sic] of his vacation will the Usurper show us? Maybe clipping his fingernails I suppose or maybe hanging some curtains. Yep manly. I can't believe I'm siding with Putin," one wrote. "I have President envy," another said. "Better than our metrosexual president," said a third. One riffed that a Putin-Sarah Palin ticket would lead to a more moral United States.

The cult of Putin in America probably has its strongest hold on the readers of ostensibly apolitical humor sites that target young men, such as Cracked and theChive. Cracked's post on why Putin is "The World's Craziest Badass" drew more than 1 million views. TheChive's slide show naming Putin "The Real Life Most Interesting Man in the World" inspired several hundred comments—only a few from Putin-haters distressed to see that he had such a following.

Putin is hardly the first—or the worst—antihero to enjoy the devotion of a small segment of Americans. Nor is he the first to benefit from a deep, reflexive distrust of public institutions like the government or media. The most recent and disconcerting example is the hero worship of Boston Marathon suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, who has a cult following online. Many doubt law enforcement's assertion of his guilt; others create Tumblr pages worshipping him like the latest teenage pop star.

As for Young, recent years have tested the man-crush. He still thinks the guy he interviewed would make a great fishing partner, but he dislikes the "saber rattling" he sees between Putin and Obama. "A lot of people in the outdoors world will say to me, 'Hey look what your boy Putin is doing now. I always respond: 'It's Vlad, and I'm not sure that's the real one,' " Young says.  "It's really hard for me right now, with what all is going on, to say which Putin he really is. I would like to say he's the one who answered my questions."

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« Reply #116 on: September 26, 2013, 10:20:09 pm »

Was reading up a bit on this Sunday School movement. Even before the Sunday School movement, there were sects of organized religion/education, the MA Bay Colony Plymouth Pilgrims being one of them. Eventually, they embraced the SS movement, but nonetheless they embraced some kind of organized religion/education prior to that, and their fruits showed.

Pt being that you see the modern-day organized church system believe in this Historicism eschatology heresy(which comes from the RCC, and believes prophecy is being fulfilled gradually over time interpreted symbolically, and the Rev 13 Antichrist is some system that happened a long time ago). This is exactly the same eschatology belief the Pilgrims, Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, John Wesley, and other organized religion types held too - no surprise, b/c even the Pilgrims, Spurgeon, Henry, and Wesley held to organized church system beliefs.

FWIW, I have a book written with Spurgeon quotes in it - one of the things he said was that Christians should NOT preach about the 2nd Coming of Christ, b/c it hurts our preaching of Christ's 1st Coming to others. Sorry Spurgeon, but scripture says otherwise...

1Peter 1:6  Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:


1John 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jn 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.


It's no wonder why the modern-day church buildings, 99% of them, scoff at end times prophecies now. And the seeds were planted some time ago.
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« Reply #117 on: October 11, 2013, 12:56:59 am »

First off, I'm not trying to talk about Greg Miller here - but I was listening to a sermon he preached over who the Rev 13 beast could be yesterday, and when he talked about Judas Iscariot...to be honest, this is something I've really been thinking about over the last couple of years, and here's why according to scripture...

2The 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

John_17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Notice here - in 2nd The 2, Paul calls the Antichrist the son of perdition. In this verse in John, Jesus was referring to Judas Iscariot as the son of perdition.

Acts_1:25  That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Notice here when this verse refers to Judas, it doesn't say he's asleep in the grave before judgment - but he's in HIS OWN PLACE.

Rev_17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Now look at this passage - was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit...

Rev_11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Just curious - is the bottomless pit and hell the same thing? When you start to tie in everything together from the above verses, it doesn't sound like they're the same thing. And as we all know, the dead are asleep in the grave before judgment.

Also - someone on this forum pointed out that the AC could be Jewish. Especially considering how the end times largely focuses on Israel, this wouldn't surprise me.

Daniel 11:36  And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Dan 11:37  Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.



Again, I'm not trying to bring Greg Miller into this discussion - but like said, this is something I've been thinking about for awhile b/c of the "son of perdition" references in 2nd The 2 and John 17:8, which for some reason made me wonder if Judas Iscariot could be involved. 
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« Reply #118 on: October 11, 2013, 04:34:23 am »

This subject was brought up recently on Now The End Begins blogtalkradio that i listened to. The host said after looking at some of them verses it is FACT that the Antichrist is Judas Iscariot. i know the host listens to Peter Ruckman which made me think did he get the idea from Ruckman? If it is Judas as Antichrist i think he will go by a different name when he appears. Jesus has many names so i think that the Antichrist in counterfeiting will have many names too. In my thinking i'm not looking for the Antichrist i'm looking for the Blessed Hope the Lord Jesus Christ.

Quote
Just curious - is the bottomless pit and hell the same thing? When you start to tie in everything together from the above verses, it doesn't sound like they're the same thing. And as we all know, the dead are asleep in the grave before judgment.

They are different i know in the Greek the two words are different meaning.
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« Reply #119 on: October 11, 2013, 05:20:04 am »

Judas is not the Antichrist. Judas died in the flesh.

16  Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17  For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18  Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19  And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20  For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Acts 1:16-20 (KJB)
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