"For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it." 1 Corinthians 11:18 (KJB)Because I'm not convinced, as well as I think it's not important and even a distraction, to be debating "pre or post trib", I tend to avoid this discussion. We are saved whether we are right or wrong about when we are caught up to "meet the Lord in the air".
The point to remember is that we will be shown what we need when we need it. Jesus promised us we would be shown things, that we would know our redemption "draweth nigh". So that means we will see certain changes in the world around us that lets us know the time is short.
But what I think some people tend to overlook is that there is two types of tribulation mentioned in scripture. There is the tribulation we experience while here, as part of the day to day dealings with the world because the world hates us. The other is "great tribulation", which is commonly thought to be the 7 year tribulation period, during which the trumpet, seals, and vials are unleashed.
One indicator that is mentioned is the "trumpet" that is mentioned as part of the great tribulation, and another mentioned as being "the trumpet shall sound..." seems to be connected to our "rapture", "the dead in Christ shall rise first..."
Are there two trumpet sounds? Or are these two one and the same trumpet? Also, pre-trib says we won't be here during the sounding of the trumpets, along with the opening of the seals, etc, as that's part of the great tribulation period, we are already gone by then, right?
Jesus clearly says, "In the world ye shall have tribulation...". That however is not a reference anything more than how we experience tribulation in the world, but it doesn't relate to any rapture. It's not the same type "tribulation". I mention this because some confuse certain verses as evidence of pre-trib, when in fact it's talking about the general tribulation we all experience each day in the world, and is not any indicator of a rapture.
More than one verse mentioned above have no relation to the rapture, such as the Matthew 24 verses. Notice that it says, "...from one end of heaven to the other." That verse to me shows the body of Christ already in heaven. It doesn't say earth, but heaven. If we have not been "raptured" yet, we obviously could not be in heaven to be gathered from one end to the other.
The key is where it says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days". Wait, stop. What tribulation? And what is being described as taking place after that tribulation? The return of Jesus, with His saints, the armies of God, gathered by His angels "from one end of heaven to the other". So is Matthew 24:29 talking about the "great tribulation" period? Seems so. That means then we need to go back in time to see what takes place during and before "the tribulation of those days", because from verse 29 on, the body is definitely in heaven already. NOW we have a baseline (determine when we are definitely here, and when we are no longer here) to work with on the timeline. So the latter Matthew 24 verses only help establish a point when we are no longer here, but in heaven. It needs to be defines what the tribulation is in verse 29, but it seems like THE tribulation period. By that time, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", we are already gone.
This I believe is one of the most telling verses on the topic...
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Notice it says "we". Who "we" are needs to be clarified.
The author is including himself in the group of those believers that are alive in the flesh on earth when Jesus returns, with His gathered armies. But, "we" in that verse are said to be on earth still, observing His return. So, how does that work? To say "we" is to refer to all believers, yet Matthew tells us that we are already with Jesus when He returns. Hmm. Somebody is wrong, and it ain't Jesus!
This is where some say that they are the people who were left on earth after the rapture, but have been born-again during the great tribulation and are still alive in the flesh on earth when Jesus returns "with ten thousands of his saints". I'm not seeing anything yet that refutes that. It doesn't not fit. This is where some say thta there is not a single "rapture", but more than one, a pre-trib of believers, then another at the time of Jesus' return with those saints who were raptured before the great tribulation period. Some have tried to make the case that there is even more than two "raptures", calling the taking up of Enoch as a rapture. That to me is a stretch of the word "rapture".
But it is clear to me that if there is such a thing as a pre-tribulation rapture, there is also a "rapture" of the seven year tribulation period new believers as Jesus returns as well.
So for what it's worth, attention needs to be paid to which tribulation is being talked about in a given verse, as both general and the great tribulation period are mentioned in and around end times related verses. The word "tribulation" is used generally throughout scripture, and specifically about the seven year tribulation period.
"No prophesy of scripture is of any private interpretation..."
No question, there is just one interpretation, so some of us are wrong, and must humble ourselves and let God shows us the error of our way.
"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:10 (KJB)"[Be] of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits." Romans 12:16 (KJB)"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Titus 3:9 (KJB)"For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's." Romans 14:8 (KJB)
