The PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE DOCTRINE is a HOAX ?

[Kilika]

This is why one must be careful what sites they get their info from. I advise doctrinal caution when purusing AV-1611. com. I've seen some classic churchianity false doctrines being promoted there, such as this junk...

AN IMPORTANT QUESTION

Thus we see that the Word of God itself provides us with the key to its own proper understanding and right division:

Time Past: In Matthew through John we find the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ to the nation Israel. In the book of Acts we have the fall of Israel and salvation going to the Gentiles through the ministry of the Apostle Paul.

But Now: Romans through Philemon provide the doctrine for the present dispensation of grace.

Ages To Come: Hebrews through Revelation focus on the ages to come when God will bring to fruition His purposes for both the nation Israel and the Body of Christ.

We are not the only people in the programs and purposes of God. People in other ages need Scripture to instruct them in the specifics of God's dealings with them just as we do. Remember: All of the Bible is for us but it is not all to us nor is it all about us. If we fail to recognize this important fact we will never be able to properly understand just what God is doing today nor will we know just what He would have us do.

One important question remains: You are one of "the nations." The Apostle Paul says unequivocally, "I am the apostle of the Gentiles [i.e., the nations]." Who, then, is your apostle? There can be no answer but that Paul is our apostle, for he was raised up by our ascended Lord specifically that he "should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles" (Romans 15:16).

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, HE THAT RECEIVETH WHOMSOEVER I SEND RECEIVETH ME; AND HE THAT RECEIVETH ME RECEIVETH HIM THAT SENT ME" (John 13:20).

Thus it is in Paul's writings alone that we find the doctrine, position, walk and destiny of the Body of Christ.

Notice what they are doing? It's a setup. They are elevating Paul to justify their own "religious leaders" as being somebody when they are no more important to the body of Christ than the next believer. That is some serious churchianity false doctrine right there. Who is our apostle? Are they serious? It's Jesus Christ!

And by the way, MY bible says..."Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever", so I have no idea where they get the false idea that only some of the New Testament is meant for us, and some for Jews, etc. Talk about twisting scripture. Genesis to Revelation is for all mankind!

It may be more edifying to just avoid those charts, and graphs and people's personal interpretations, exercise better discernment of sound doctrine, and not be so quick to copy/paste stuff from other sites, and just rely on what God shows us through the Spirit as we read and search the scriptures.

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39 (KJB)

[Jim]

It may be more edifying to just avoid those charts, and graphs and people's personal interpretations, exercise better discernment of sound doctrine, and not be so quick to copy/paste stuff from other sites, and just rely on what God shows us through the Spirit as we read and search the scriptures.

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39 (KJB)

Maybe we should just ignore/avoid all false teachings and be ignorant of satan's devices.

 It is  better to find and expose false teachings  so that if someone else stumbles across them they will be able to learn from what we have already exposed. We are called to be watchmen or at the least to provide for our own household. We are of the household of faith.

[Psalm 51:17]

Maybe we should just ignore/avoid all false teachings and be ignorant of satan's devices.

 It is  better to find and expose false teachings  so that if someone else stumbles across them they will be able to learn from what we have already exposed. We are called to be watchmen or at the least to provide for our own household. We are of the household of faith.

I agree 100% - you have no idea how over in my neck of the woods, I am pleading with my mom to avoid this pastor who's church is not only yoked up with Purpose Driven, but also is now part of Warren's "church planting" movement in China(and he's trying to help one of our Chinese friends there to build a church, but it will be under Warren's Purpose Driven authority). I posted this in detail in another thread - yeah, this is very serious.

And yeah, also important to expose all false teachings as well, which is why it's good to surf the net and keep up with the apologetics daily.

[Christian40]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unxK5tbiLIM&feature=share

The Rapture

“A video put together about the last approaching days and the scriptures prophecying what will take place. A first hand look the Rapture Day and the end of the world as we know it. These clips are not meant to be taken literal. Such as the clip of someone, saidly enough "I can not even begin to imagine", jumping off the WTC buildings following the scripture about those desiring to kill themselves but will not be able to, and. That was used for image purposes. To have a visual aid sorta but by no means did I mean for that to be an example of the scripture itself. It was just to show what it will be like when those times come.

"Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober." (1 Thessalonians 5:6) KJV
"And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not." (Acts 28:24) KJV

Please enjoy. Open your eyes It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with him forever. The rapture is God's removing of his people from the earth. The word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapture" which means to take away or to snatch out. A few verses later, in 1Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, "for God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of The Tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out his wrath upon the earth during the tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove his people from the earth seems to link those two events together. Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the "hour of trial" that is going to come upon the earth. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or he will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings however, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the "hour" of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulation position. If the bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulation position is the most biblically-based interpretation. Comment all you want. Tell me how I'm blindly believing in something that couldn't possibly be real. I accept all comments. But just know, you can say whatever you want, but it will still not prevent the inevitable.

With Love.”

[Kilika]

It appears to me Jesus tells us several different times, as the following I believe shows us that we all are to experience "the rain descended and the floods came"...

24   Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 
25   And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 
26   And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 
27   And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Matthew 7:24-27 (KJB)

[Believer]

Jesus is our ROCK through all things!

[Christian40]

Revelation Chart by Dr. Harry Ironside



Dr. Harry Ironside (1876-1951), a godly Fundamentalist author and teacher for many years, served as pastor of Chicago's Moody Memorial Church from 1930-1948

[Christian40]

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren ... we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Wherefore comfort one another with these words." —1st Thessalonians 4:13,17,18

NO, the PRE-tribulation Rapture is not a new teaching. I have heard numerous people, from pastors to talk show hosts, claim that the PRE-TRIBULATION Rapture is a new teaching that didn't exist until just a couple hundred years ago. Many websites teach this heresy as well.

May I say, confidently, that the Bible teaches a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the saints. I believe that the Words of the King James Bible are 100% preserved and inspired by God. Every last Word. Word-for-Word inspired. We clearly read in 1st Thessalonians 4:17 that all believers shall be “caught up” together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. This is the Rapture of the Church, which may take place at any “moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (1st Corinthians 15:52).

If a POST-tribulation theory were true, then why would the saints need to be “caught up” if Christ is returning to the earth? A POST-tribulation Rapture makes no logical sense at all. The Bible plainly differentiate between the PRE-tribulation Rapture verses the Second Coming of Jesus Christ 7-years later. Here is a helpful chart by Pastor Harry Ironside explaining God's prophetic timeline.

So you see, the Bible does teach the doctrine of the PRE-tribulation Rapture. It is NOT a new teaching as some pseudo-scholars claim. Before the Bible was completed in A.D.96, the teaching of the Pre-tribulation Rapture was already contained in the Bible, in 1st Thessalonians 4:17. The Biblical doctrine of the Pre-tribulation Rapture has been with us for the past 2,000 years.

The body of every born-again believer will suddenly change, and be “caught up” into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Carefully notice that the Bible says we will “meet the Lord.” Amen!

One of the strongest proofs of a Pretribulation Rapture is the event of the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION spoken of by Daniel the prophet in Daniel 9:27 and then again by the Jesus Himself in Matthew 25:15. This is the event when the Antichrist will claim to be god from the temple in Jerusalem, and demand that the world worship him or be killed. From this blasphemous event, it will be exactly 3 1/2 years until the Lord's SECOND COMING (2nd Thessalonians 2:4).

Since the Bible plainly states that no man knows WHEN the Rapture will occur (Matthew 25:13), we must conclude that it will be a Pretribulation Rapture, because we DO KNOW it will be exactly 3 1/2 years between the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION and the SECOND COMING.

I believe that the Bible is God's inerrant, preserved and inspired Words. I believe that the Words of the King James Bible are inspired Word for Word. God's Word is inspired into whatever language it is translated into. God doesn't inspire a language, He inspires His Words. We have God's preserved and inspired Words today in the King James Bible.

The Bible teaches a Rapture of the saints, and it could occur at any moment. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

I'm not looking for the undertaker, I'm looking for the uppertaker!

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/End%20of%20the%20World/rapture_not_new.htm

[Psalm 51:17]

Earlier in this thread, someone here posted video links of Chris White debunking pre-trib.

Now this is funny, White posted on PPF recently advertising his new products PROMOTING pre-trib. OK Chris, which is it? Or are ye double minded?

[Christian40]

If he changes to a mid trib rapture view he might be triple minded!

Hey that would be pretty interesting to meet a person who is triple minded.

[Christian40]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1aCCtWH6PE&feature=share

Dave Hunt - Second Coming Of Jesus

[Christian40]

Why the Rapture of the Church Has To Happen Before the Seven Year Tribulation

alohabibleprophecy

part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrOg07PdJUM&feature=share

part 2


part 3


part 4


part 5


part 6

[Christian40]

All sermons by James Ruckman, Glory Bound Baptist Church, Hoven, South Dakota

Proofs for a Pretrib Rapture:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=211121623461

Proofs for a Pretrib Rapture Part 2:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=220121239406

Proofs for a Pretrib Rapture Part 3:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=22012144823

Are You Ready for the Rapture:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=21112163946

[Psalm 51:17]

I've been reading Randall Baer's "Inside the New Age Nightmare", and he said that the New Age Movement anticipates their "Messiah" to be a man that will unite, reconcile, etc the world human race, and the "UFO/extraterrestrial forces".

No, I don't want to speculate who the AC will be, but obviously Baer is someone who at one time was on the inside looking out.

I guess we will see what happens when all is said and done - BTW, I still have some 12 pages to go in the book, but from what I gather, I believe Baer is pre-trib. I'm also reading Fritz Springmeyer's "Be Wise as Serpents", and Springmeyer is a post-trib believer.

[Christian40]

Okay i was listening to SWRC and the fellow on there Larry he said this:

If the Post Tribulation Rapture is right: How come there are no Bible verses that say what Christians should do in the Great Tribulation?

A Good Question.

[Mark]

Okay i was listening to SWRC and the fellow on there Larry he said this:

If the Post Tribulation Rapture is right: How come there are no Bible verses that say what Christians should do in the Great Tribulation?

A Good Question.

He also mentioned, Why 144,000 Jewish evangelists?, if the Church is still around.

[Psalm 51:17]

He also mentioned, Why 144,000 Jewish evangelists?, if the Church is still around.

About the 144K Jewish evangelists...

The so-called "Historicism" crowd has spinned this passage to make it look like the number 144 is *symbolic* for Christians at Jesus's 2nd Coming, and they try to plug a square peg into a round hole by trying to tie this Rev 7 passage to a bunch of OT passages. Funny how the Historicism crowd acuses the Futurism crowd of being modern-day Tim LaHaye/John Darby dispensationalists by trying to tie NT prophecies to OT passsages...but guess what, the Historicism crowd is DOING THE SAME THING here! Also, they can't seem to make up their minds whether the 144K sealed is either symbolic or literal.

Also, the current 501c3 church also seems to preach this same message about the 144K sealed being Christians - of course they do, b/c if they preach Revelation takes place in the future end times, they will lose their 501c3 statuses!

[Psalm 51:17]

Rev 16:12  And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13  And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14  For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16  And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Also, look at the last 2 verses here - after the 6th vial of wrath is poured out, scripture talks about what Paul talked about in 1st The 5(cometh as a thief, and to watch).

Again, I'm post-trib, however, looking at verses 15 and 16 here, MAYBE God will protect the saved(the ones before the trib starts, that is) throughout the 7 year tribulation?

Again, I don't know, but again, remember Jesus promises he'll NEVER pluck the saved out of his hand(among other important passages in John he makes faithful promises about).

[Mark]

Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief.

That means this event is going to happen quickly and unexpectedly. Just who is being gathered here? Sure isnt the remnant. This has nothing to do with the rapture, but the sudden gathering of the worlds armies by demonic forces. 

[Psalm 51:17]

FWIW, I really do hope pre-trib is correct. Just saw this video from a youtube ministry whose videos Bryan posts on his site every now and then...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFPHnZ0RsPk&feature=BFa&list=UU9Qdmnxz6SkqWnVN_SxUSUg

[Psalm 51:17]

[Christian40]

From A Private Message Sent To Me

Let's talk RAPTURE TIMING........ One of my favorite topics of study!

It's always fun to consider timing even though we don't know a day or an hour. But think about this.....The Lord DID NOT SAY that nobody would EVER know. He said nobody knew then, and that's true. Nobody has known since, but that doesn't mean the Lord won't tell us when He's good and ready. I expect He could give us a few hours notice like He did when Elijah was raptured. The sons of the prophets knew all day long that Elijah was leaving that day sometime.

The Spirit has been SO GENEROUS to show me how these things fit together as I study the Word. Follow with me here and I'll show you that we can get pretty darn close with what we know RIGHT NOW.....

Follow me step by step and calculate these things in your mind as we go through them so you can see it all for yourself.

First it's important to establish something very important. This book is thousands of years old, BUT....it stands or falls with THIS GENERATION. With the information the scriptures provide, Jesus will either come during this generation, or the bible will fail and He's never coming. This isn't something where our generation will die off and the next generation hope they are the ones. THE WHOLE THING STANDS OR FALLS WITH OUR GENERATION. If Jesus doesn't come by 2028, we will need throw our bibles in the trash because prophecy would have failed. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE, so don't go holding your breath on that one.......lol.

Let's go through it.

The prophetic generation is 80 years long AT THE MOST according to Psalms 90:10.

Psalms 90:10. The days of our years are threescore years and ten; (70 years) and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, (80 years) yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

According to Matthew 24:32-34, the prophetic generation is born when Israel is born, and will not pass away until ALL of the prophecies, including the Second Coming of Christ are fulfilled.

Matthew 24:32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

24:33. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

24:34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Israel and the prophetic generation are now 64 years old, and plainly this generation will not pass until all the prophecies are fulfilled. Jesus said so Himself.....

What we are wondering here is HOW CLOSE ARE WE to the Rapture of the believers, right? Let's go backwards from the very LONGEST it can be until Jesus comes and see how close to RIGHT NOW we find ourselves........

The longest the generation can be is 80 years, that means that Jesus will return at His Second Coming by 2028....(AT THE VERY LATEST). Israel and the prophetic generation would be 80 years old then. We know the Tribulation Period is seven years long (just under since the days are shortened or no flesh would be saved).

That means the Tribulation Period would have to start by 2021 (again, at the VERY LATEST).

So do we have MORE clues that narrow it further? YES, we do.....

The scriptures speak of Israel burning the weapons of their slain enemies for SEVEN YEARS. This is NOT the seven year Tribulation Period. This is a different seven years which OVERLAPS into the Tribulation period.

Israel can only burn those weapons up until the Mid-point of the Tribulation Period because they flee for their lives at that time to Petra where God will protect them.

SO....that means Israel is burning weapons 3-1/2 years before the Tribulation Period officially starts, doesn't it? That's the only way they can burn those weapons for seven years, which the scriptures say they do.

If the Tribulation has to start in 2021, (at the latest) then the Tribulation Midpoint would be somewhere in 2024. Let's back up seven years and we find that the war is OVER and Israel starts burning those weapons by 2017 (AGAIN, AT THE LATEST). So we know the wars are over by 2017....... Cool, huh?

Now....let's see if we have biblical clues that help us regress further. How about indicators that tell us when the wars START? YES, we do.......

Tetrads of blood moons have marked the past two significant wars Israel has fought where they gained MORE of the Holy Lands with each one. This time will be no exception. The Arab/Israeli war will result in Israel reclaiming ALL of the Holy Lands which the Arabs now occupy. When will this occur? Well, the next tetrad of blood moons comes in 2014 and 2015.

The Holy Lands (a portion) came back into Israel's possession in 1948. We had a tetrad of blood moons in 1949 and 1950 immediately after that. In 1967, Israel captured all of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. We had a tetrad of blood moons in 1967 and 1968 to mark that event. (Both a WAR, and Israel gaining more lands).

We have another tetrad of blood moons coming in 2014 and 2015. Back to our timeline....

Since we have a tetrad coming in 2014 and 2015, then the Second Seal Judgment War can be expected in 2013, or 2014 if this pattern of tetrads since the birth of Israel remains consistent.

So let's say for our theory's sake that this tetrad is like the 1949-50 tetrad and comes the next two years in a row after the wars start in 2013.

So we're at 2013-2014 for the wars to start (AGAIN AT THE LATEST).

What happens BEFORE THAT?

Let's regress a bit further to HOW LONG the antichrist is here PRIOR TO THE WARS STARTING.

The world isn't going to be in total chaos for long after the rapture. The antichrist will show up probably VERY SHORTLY after this amazing event takes place, and will restore order, take control of the world government, and be establishing his new global economic system. That's going to take some time. Remember that the wars happen BEFORE the Treaty is signed that starts the Tribulation Period, and the antichrist doesn't seem to be a part of the wars in the middle east as they are being fought. He's still doing good all over the place and convincing the world of what a great guy he is. He gets involved in the peace process as well, so these things don't just happen overnight. It looks like there is atleast SEVEN MONTHS between the end of the wars, and the Peace Treaty being signed because Israel is busy burying millions of dead Russians/Turks/and Iranians in their northern desert when the war ends. That's also when they start burning the weapons.

Keep in mind that when the Treaty is finally signed, the antichrist has already restored order, got the world back up on a paying basis, taken over the world government, established his new economic system, and everybody thinks he's "god". They proclaim him the messiah when the treaty is signed and the Tribulation Period STARTS. That means he's been here awhile......long enough before that to make a serious impression on the world. THEY WILL LOVE HIM, and think he's got all the answers. He will tell them exactly what they want to hear. He's could be here for MONTHS or possibly a year or more when the war starts. Let's back up from the start of the war now by a year. That brings us to 2012, doesn't it? Wait a minute....weren't we just talking about the LATEST all this could go down, and we find ourselves at 2012 to expect the rapture? That's a trip, isn't it?

A word on the war. This is the Arab/Israeli war the bible refers to. It doesn't mention wars between other countries who fight against each other. It's possible for the USA and Iran, and Russia to break out into war PRIOR to the second seal judgment being opened, but I don't think it will. Hopefully it won't go nuclear until Damascus is destroyed. We don't know when mystery babylon (which is probably the USA) is destroyed, but we know it will be. It won't be destroyed before the rapture, so that's our consolation.

There could be several months after the opening of the first seal judgment (the antichrist revealed to the world) and then the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seal judgments would be opened in more rapid succession. Then after the 4th produces it's effects (massive deaths), there is just over 3-1/2 years before Seal Judgment 5 is opened and the martyrs are slaughtered for refusing the mark. (This is the first half of the Tribulation Period.)

In the past we've thought that the Tribulation started immediately when the antichrist shows up, but that doesn't appear to be the case as more of the hidden elements in the scriptures are opened up to us. The Word in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 tells us that the son of perdition arrives BEFORE the Tribulation Period.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The antichrist is going to need TIME to restore order from the rapture aftermath.

Remember that the rapture will cause the global economy to melt down and collapse due to the sheer scope of the recovery costs. The governments whose economies tanked are going to topple fast. The antichrist must restore order, take control of the world government, initiate his new global economy, and get the world back up on it's feet. He will be working on these things when the war starts somewhere probably around 2013.

Since it's going to take some time to get the world into recovery mode after the rapture occurs, I would say that it's NOT UNREASONABLE to expect the rapture could feasibly occur in 2012.

We can't say for sure that the rapture will occur in 2012 of course, but I find it scripturally possible for several reasons.

1. The ancient cultures...ALL OF THEM agree that something that happens in 2012 changes EVERYTHING, and life as we know it will never be the same again. That sounds like the rapture to me. The rapture will change the world in more ways than we can possible imagine on this side of the event.

2. The more I study, the more I see that there is NOTHING that says the antichrist will only be in authority for seven years. There are too many things the antichrist must accomplish before the Treaty is signed and the Tribulation Period officially starts for him to accomplish all those things in just a few days or a week. It's looking like the antichrist is going to be around for months, to possibly 2 or 3 years before the Tribulation Period officially starts with the treaty being signed.

The scriptures tell us that Satan has but a short time once he is cast down. That's at the Tribulation midpoint, so it's very possible that the antichrist is ruling for 3 or 4 years before the Tribulation period even officially starts with the Treaty. Satan only gets those 3-1/2 years at the end of the Tribulation Period to be here personally wreaking havoc, but the antichrist is a MAN possessed by a spirit which gives him power, and authority. That's why he can do miracles.

He takes over almost immediately after the rapture. It won't be months of lawlessness and chaos. If you've seen the videos of the trains that are MILES long carrying armored vehicles and tanks - thousands of them, then you know that the govt is preparing for the chaos of the rapture aftermath. They know it's coming too, and they're ready for it. That means martial law of course immediately after the rapture. The Fema Camps are for the displaced whose homes have been destroyed, and for those who leave disaster areas (every coastline) initially. They won't be used to round up the saints until sometime during the Tribulation Period. Remember that no judgments from God are falling for those first 3-1/2 years of the Tribulation. Life has returned to some form of normalcy and the people are celebrating. The bible says the antichrist causes craft to prosper, so things are looking up for the people of the world during this period of time. They've been traumatized really badly by the wars, famine, and massive deaths...not to mention the rapture before that. They are HAPPY and HOPEFUL......crying PEACE AND SAFETY - then sudden destruction comes upon them as travails upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.

So......as we can see, even calculating backward from the FURTHEST AND LATEST DATE JESUS COULD POSSIBLY RETURN WITHIN THE WORD, we find ourselves RIGHT NOW IN THE RAPTURE SEASON. We need to make certain that we are ready to go any day, any time.....

Cool huh?

Below are the scriptures which show the seven years Israel is burning weapons, and the seven months they are burying bodies in the desert.

EZEKIEL 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

39:12. And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

39:13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.

39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

The scriptures say that ISRAEL will burn the slain army's weapons for seven years.

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

39:10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

COME QUICKLY LORD JESUS!!!

[Christian40]

It's a Pre-Trib Rapture and Here's Why by Kyle Stephens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF_f7NZdnn0&feature=plcp

Blessed Hope Baptist Church
Kyle Stephens
9754 University Ave NW
Coon Rapids, MN 55448
http://www.av1611audio.com

[Psalm 51:17]

Anyone here familiar with Dave McPherson, author of "The Rapture Hoax"?

I can't find this particular column, but he wrote in it that the proper escatology view is HISTORICISM(A-Mill, pretty much), and NOT Preterism/Futurism(well, he's right about Preterism). Again, I wish I could find it, but McPherson himself has bought into New Age theology by buying into an escatology view that the occultists/new version editors made up. So basically if he really believes in Historicism/A-Mill, and says there's NO rapture...oh wait a minute...don't the saints get 1st The 4:13-18 EVENTUALLY?

Also, his book is sold on a web site/book publishing company that promotes "Dominion Theology" like Gary DeMar's and Hank Hanegraaf's books, yet another red flag.

[Mark]

Anyone here familiar with Dave McPherson, author of "The Rapture Hoax"?

Inventor of false pre-trib rapture history

      Dave MacPherson is an individual who loves to hate pretribulationism.  In fact, he has thought up new ways to express his distain for pretribulationism by fabricating a false history of the pre-trib rapture.  For the last thirty-plus years, MacPherson has dedicated his life to full time rapture hating in an attempt to participate in anything that he believes will obstruct its spread.

A Great Conspiracy Theory?

      MacPherson believes that the key elements of the doctrine of the pretribulational rapture originated with a young Scottish girl named Margaret Macdonald in Spring of 1830.  This is the thesis put forth in a number of books and publications for over thirty years by MacPherson, a newsman turned rapture researcher.  MacPherson's major book The Rapture Plot (Millennium III Publishers, 1994), is only one of the latest in a series of revisions of his original discourse The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin (Heart of America Bible Society, 1973).  His books include the following: The Three R’s:  Rapture, Revisionism, Robbery (P.O.S.T., 1998), The Great Rapture Hoax  (New Puritan Library, 1983), Rapture? (New Puritan Library, 1987), The Incredible Cover-Up  (Omega Publications, 1975), The Late Great Pre-Trib Rapture (Heart of America Bible Society, 1974).

      Dave MacPherson is convinced “that the popular Pre-Trib Rapture teaching of today was really instigated by a teenager in Scotland who lived in the early 1800's.” (Hoax, p. 7.)  “If Christians had known all along,” bemoans MacPherson concerning the historical beginnings of the pretrib rapture, “the state of Christianity could have been vastly different today.” (Hoax, p. 180).  He does not think that this research has been mere historical oversight, but rather a well-orchestrated "cover-up" which has been carefully managed by clever pretrib leaders each step of the way, even alleging that Dallas Seminary was grooming and commissioning Hal Lindsey for the purpose of popularizing the pretrib rapture for the Jesus Movement in the early 70's. (Incredible Cover-Up, pp, 131-32).  Jim McKeever, in the forward of the book, compares this pretrib cover-up to the Watergate cover-up.  Before we get into the background of the pretrib rapture lets run a background check on MacPherson.
MacPherson's Background

      MacPherson has dedicated his life to the cause of disrupting belief in the pretrib rapture, since, according to his interpretation, it has been the cause for great disruption in his own life.  “Back in 1953 I had a jolting encounter with the Rapture,” is the opening sentence in MacPherson's Rapture Hoax (p. 3).  This is a reference to his expulsion from a Christian College in California (BIOLA) for propagating views that conflicted with pretribulationism.  He suggests that this experience was so devastating that it accounts for a setback in his Christian life.  Because of his discouragement, MacPherson and a friend went out and got drunk in Mexico and passed out.  MacPherson says this was a brush with death because of the many dangers that could befall someone in such a condition in Mexico.  Later, he was involved in a wreck with a car while riding his motorcycle and almost lost his left arm.  But these were not the beginning of his nor his family’s troubles because of the pretrib rapture.

      Robert L. Sumner has noted that “MacPherson has a bad habit of attributing all kinds of personal tragedies to the pre-trib teaching:  his mother's death, his sister's inability to have more children, his own failure to follow through on his calling as an evangelist, and other matters.”  (“’Looking For The Blessed Horrible Holocaust!’ A book review of The Late Great Pre-Trib Rapture” in The Biblical Evangelist (May, 1975), p. 8.)  Sumner cites another “illustration of how paranoid he has become concerns his conclusion that his ‘lovable dog, Wolf’ apparently became demon possessed just about the time MacPherson was about to write his first anti-pretribulation book, savagely biting his writing hand several times.” (“Hope? Or Hoax?” The Biblical Evangelist (Feb., 1984), p. 7.)

      Trials and tribulation due to the pretrib rapture seems to run in the MacPherson family.  Dave's father, Norman, had planted a church in Long Beach, California and was doing quite well until a group of new people in the church caused a commotion over the timing of the rapture.  Norman MacPherson was forced out of this prospering church because he had shifted from the pretrib to the posttrib view of the rapture.  Norman S. MacPherson had authored posttrib books, Tell It Like It Will Be  (privately printed, 1970), and Triumph Through Tribulation (by the author, 1944).  He then started another, less successful church in Long Beach.  Dave MacPherson displays a habit of blaming many of the personal tragedies in his life on the pretrib rapture teaching.

      In 1983 MacPherson declared, “Fifteen years ago I knew nothing about Pre-Trib beginnings.” (Hoax, p. 47)  He began his quest by writing to his father and received back an answer which indicated a lack of consensus among scholars, “so I decided to do some research on my own.” (Hoax, p. 47)  MacPherson's investigation gathered steam when he found a rare book in 1971 by Robert Norton, The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861).  “The important part in Norton's book,” claimed MacPherson, “is a personal revelation that Margaret Macdonald had in the spring of 1830.” (Hoax, p. 47)  MacPherson uses this finding to project the notion that the source of the pretrib rapture is of demonic origin through a 15-year-old Scottish lassie.

      For MacPherson, his calling in life is a crusade to develop and sharpen his theory and to propagate it around the world.  Operating as would any covert agent in hostile, enemy territory, MacPherson has made many trips onto the enemy turf of pretrib colleges and seminaries in order to dispense his material.  His campaigns have led him to travel around the country with his message of the hidden story of the genesis of the pretrib rapture, which he believes if people knew, the doctrine would virtually become extinct.  This mission has taken him to such places as Dallas Seminary, the great stronghold of the pretribs, where he speaks of distributing literature informing naive pretribers concerning their heritage.  (I have retrieved two of his clandestine flyers from library books at the seminary.)  As another typical example, he once blitzed a bus of students from Jerry Falwell's college.  John Walvoord has noted:

MacPherson made these charges against pretribulationism and then afterward went to great lengths to find historic verification. . . . Readers will be impressed that as a newsman MacPherson builds a strong case for his position, but will be less impressed when they begin to analyze what he has actually proved. (John F. Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation (Zondervan, 1979), pp. 42-43.)

MacPherson's Claims

      Irvingite Robert Norton included a handwritten account of Margaret Macdonald's “prophecy,” which is said by MacPherson to be the fountainhead for J. N. Darby's development into the pretrib rapture doctrine.  MacPherson does not say that Macdonald's utterance included a clear statement of the pretrib rapture, but that she “separated the Rapture from the Second Coming before anyone else did.” .” (Hoax, p. 121)  According to MacPherson, Darby pilfered this two-stage teaching from Macdonald, according to MacPherson, and then developed it systematically, skillfully passing it off as the fruit of his personal Bible study.

      Macdonald's so-called revelation that MacPherson cites to make his case revolves around two key phrases.  “Margaret dramatically separated the sign  of the Son of man from the coming  of the Son of man,” (Hoax, p. 125) declares MacPherson based upon the phrase “now look out for the sign of the Son of man.” (Hoax, p. 128)  MacPherson argues that “she equated the sign with the Rapture—a Rapture that would occur before the revealing of Antichrist.” (Hoax, p. 129)  He bases this on her statement, “I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus.” (Hoax, p. 126)

MacPherson's Errors

      MacPherson makes at least three major errors in his attempt to argue that Margaret Macdonald originated the basis for the pretrib rapture.  First, it is highly doubtful that the Macdonald "prophecy" contains the two-stage coming of Christ, as MacPherson advocates.  Therefore, it would be impossible for this source to be the basis for a new idea if it did not contain those elements.  MacPherson has misinterpreted Macdonald's words by equating her use of "sign" with a rapture.  Rather, she is saying that only those who are spiritual will see the secret sign of the Son of Man which will precede the single, posttrib second coming of Christ.  In other words only those who have the light of the Holy Spirit within them will know when the second coming will take place because this spiritual enlightenment will enable them to have the spiritual perception to see the secret sign (not secret rapture).  These are her own words:

. . . all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory.  I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. . . . Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance.  No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is.  Tis Christ in us that will lift us up--he is the light--tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air.  I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things.  John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. . . . it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God . . . I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, those who had not the Spirit could see nothing. . . (Hoax, pp. 126-27)

      Macdonald is clearly concerned with spiritual insights for the following reasons:  1) Stephen saw into heaven; he was not raptured or taken to heaven.  2) She clearly says that the sign will be seen only by the spiritually enlightened and that it would not be a natural or physical sign, but one perceived by “spiritual discernment.”  3) She is talking about “the sign of his appearance,” not an actual appearance.  4) Once a person has been so enlightened, they will have no need for direction from others, they will be guided directly by “the living Christ.”  5) The whole emphasis is upon seeing:  “John was in the Spirit, when he saw,” “those who were filled with the Spirit could see.”  Posttrib advocate D. H. Kromminga observes that Macdonald's “prophecies made it plain that the return of the Lord depended upon the proper spiritual preparation of His Church.” (D. H. Kromminga, The Millennium in the Church:  Studies in the History of Christian Chiliasm, (Eerdmans, 1945), p. 250.)

      Anti-pretrib rapture advocate, John Bray, agrees that she was only teaching a single coming and not a two-staged event.  “The only thing new in her revelation itself seems to be that of just Spirit-filled Christian being caught up at the second coming of Christ following heavy trials and tribulation by the Antichrist,” notes Bray. (John L. Bray, The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching  (John L. Bray Ministry, n.d.), pp. 21-22)  In other words Macdonald appears to be teaching a posttrib, partial rapture.  Bray further explains:

It seems to me that Margaret MacDonald was saying that Christians WILL face the temptation of the false Christ (antichrist) and be in "an awfully dangerous situation", and that only the Spirit IN US will enable us to be kept from being deceived; and that as the Spirit works, so will the antichrist; but the pouring out of the Spirit will "fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb", and those filled with the Spirit would be taken while the others would be left. . . .  Margaret MacDonald did teach a partial rapture, of course, but this did not necessarily mean that the teaching included a tribulation period FOLLOWING THAT for the other Christians. . . .  It would not be right to take for granted that Margaret MacDonald believed in a tribulation period following the appearing of Christ unless she had definitely said so.  Rather, it would be more logical to think that her view would have been the same as prevalent among the futurists at that time, that is, tribulation then the second coming. (Bray, Origin, pp. 20-21).

      Another point MacPherson makes to support his opinion is that “Margaret Macdonald was the first person to teach a coming of Christ that would precede the days of Antichrist.” (Cover-Up, pp. 155-56.)  This would mean, according to MacPherson, that Macdonald had to be teaching a two-stage coming.  However, it is highly questionable, as noted above, that Macdonald was referring to the rapture as MacPherson insists.  Also Macdonald was still a historicist; she believed the Church was already in the tribulation and had been for hundreds of years.  Therefore, the Antichrist was to be soon revealed, but before the second coming.  She said believers needed the spiritual sight, so that they would not be deceived.  Otherwise, why would believers, including herself, need to be filled with the Spirit in order to escape the deception which will accompany “the fiery trial which is to try us” associated with the Antichrist's arrival?  Further, she certainly includes herself as one who needs this special ministry of the Holy Spirit as can be seen from this passage from her "revelation."

. . . now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive . . . The Spirit must and will be purged out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God . . . There will be outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation.  It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out.  The trial of the Church is from the Antichrist.  It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept.  I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit--have the light of God in you, that you may detect satan--be full of eyes within--be clay in the hands of the potter--submit to be filled, filled with God. . . . This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air--and it will be.  Jesus wants his bride.  His desire is toward us. (Hoax, pp. 127-28)

Ryrie also notes a further misunderstanding of Macdonald's "prophecy":  “She saw the church (“us”) being purged by Antichrist.  MacPherson reads this as meaning the church will be raptured before Antichrist, ignoring the "us" (pp. 154-55).  In reality, she saw the church enduring Antichrist's persecution of the Tribulation days.” (Charles Ryrie, What You Should Know About the Rapture  (Moody, 1981), p. 71.)

      Further, there is no historical evidence that Macdonald, Edward Irving, or the Irvingites ever held to pretribulationism.  So how could non-pretribulationists be the source of pretribulationism?  Recently, one of the most extensive critical analysis ever produced on Irvingite doctrine declared that they were still historicist, while Darby and the Brethren had become futurist.  Columba G. Flegg notes that the Brethren teaching on the rapture and the present invisible and spiritual nature of the church,

were in sharp contrast to Catholic Apostolic teaching, . . .  There were thus very significant differences between the two eschatologies, and attempts to see any direct influence of one upon the other seem unlikely to succeed–they had a number of common roots, but are much more notable for their points of disagreement.  Several writers [referring specifically to MacPherson] have attempted to trace Darby’s secret rapture theory to a prophetic statement associated with Irving, but their arguments do not stand up to serious criticism. (Columba Graham Flegg, ‘Gathered Under Apostles’ A Study of the Catholic Apostolic Church (Clarendon Press, 1992), p. 436.)

      Second, in spite of MacPherson's great amount of research and writing he has yet to produce any hard evidence that Darby was influenced by Macdonald's utterance, regardless of what they meant.  MacPherson only assumes the connection.  If MacPherson's suppositional approach were applied to the study of history, then we can make all kinds of connections between people and events.  It would mean that you could “prove” that since Hubert Humphrey had a slick lawyer's mind, was in Washington D.C. during the early 70's, and was well-informed, he must have known about the Watergate break-in before it became public.  Walvoord observes that,

Readers of MacPherson's Incredible Cover-Up will undoubtedly be impressed by the many long quotations, most of which are only window dressing for what he is trying to prove.  When it gets down to the point of proving that either MacDonald or Irving was pretribulationist, the evidence gets very muddy.  The quotations MacPherson cites do not support his conclusion. (Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation, p. 44.)

 

      Throughout MacPherson's writings, he keeps dumping information about issues, developments, and beliefs from Great Briton during the early 1800's apparently thinking that he is adding proof for his thesis, that “the popular Pre-Trib Rapture teaching of today was really instigated by a teenager in Scotland who lived in the early 1800's.” (Hoax, p. 7.)  Much of the information is helpful and interesting, but does not prove his thesis.  If his research were represented as a river, it would be a mile wide (amount of information) but only an inch deep (actual proof).  Even if Darby developed the pretrib rapture after Macdonald's utterance, specific proof would be needed to make a link between Macdonald and Darby.  Instead MacPherson only offers speculative guesses about how Darby used his training for the law profession to manipulate Christians by hiding the supposed true origins of the pretrib rapture.  Perhaps MacPherson is using his investigative, journalism training and experience to publicly smear Darby.  This leads to my final point.

      Third, Brethren writer, Roy A. Huebner claims and documents his belief that J. N. Darby first began to believe in the pre-trib rapture and develop his dispensational thinking while convalescing from a riding accident during December 1826 and January 1827. (R. A. Huebner, Precious Truths Revived and Defended Through J. N. Darby, Vol. 1 [Present Truth Publishers, 1991].)  If this is true, and there is every reason to believe that it is, then all of the origin-of-the-rapture-conspiracy-theories fall to the ground in a heap of speculative rubble.  Darby would have at least a three-year jump on any who would have supposedly influenced his thought, making it impossible for all the “influence” theories to have any credibility.

      Huebner provides clarification and evidence that Darby was not influenced by Margaret Macdonald, Lacunza, Edward Irving, or any of the Irvingites.  These are all said by the detractors of Darby and the pre-trib rapture to be bridges that led to Darby’s thought.  Instead, Huebner demonstrates that Darby’s understanding of the pre-trib rapture was the product of the development of his personal interactive thought with the text of Scripture as he, his friends, and dispensationalists have long contended.

      Darby’s pre-trib and dispensational thoughts, says Huebner, were developed from the following factors:  1) “he saw from Isaiah 32 that there was a different dispensation coming . . .  that Israel and the Church were distinct” (Precious Truths, p. 17).  2) “During his convalescence JND learned that he ought daily to expect his Lord’s return.” (Precious Truths, p. 19).  3) “In 1827 JND understood the fall of the church. . . ‘the ruin of the Church’” (Precious Truths, p. 18).  4) Darby also was beginning to see a gap of time between the rapture and the second coming by 1827 (Precious Truths, p. 23).  5) Darby, himself, said in 1857 that he first started understanding things relating to the pre-trib Rapture “thirty years ago.”  “With that fixed point of reference, Jan. 31, 1827,” declares Huebner, we can see that Darby “had already understood those truths upon which the pre-tribulation rapture hinges” (Precious Truths, p. 24).

      German author Max S. Weremchuk has produced a major new biography on Darby entitled John Nelson Darby: A Biography (Loizeaux Brothers, 1992).  He agrees with Huebner’s conclusions concerning the matter.  “Having read MacPherson’s book . . .” says Weremchuk, “I find it impossible to make a just comparison between what Miss MacDonald ‘prophesied’ and what Darby taught.  It appears that the wish was the father of the idea” (Weremchuk, Darby, p. 242).

      When reading Darby’s earliest published essay on biblical prophecy (1829), it is clear that while it still has elements of historicism, it also reflects the fact that for Darby, the rapture was to be the church’s focus and hope.  Even in this earliest of essays, Darby expounds upon the rapture as the church’s hope.
Pre-Darby Raptures

      In addition to the above points, there have been at least three pre-Darby rapture discoveries in the last decade.  Evidence of pretribulationism surfaces during the early medieval period in a sermon some attribute to Ephraem the Syrian entitled Sermon on The Last Times, The Antichrist, and The End of the World.  The sermon was written some time between the fourth and sixth century.  The rapture statement reads as follows:

Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.

This statement evidences a clear belief that all Christians will escape the tribulation through a gathering to the Lord.  How else can this be understood other than as pretribulational?  The later second coming of Christ to the earth with the saints is mentioned at the end of the sermon.

      Francis Gumerlock, an anti-pretribulationist, claims that someone named Brother Dolcino taught a form of the pre-trib rapture in 1304.  The reason that Gumerlock believes that Brother Dolcino and the Apostolic Brethren taught pretribulationism is found the following statement:

Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist.  And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah.  And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist.  And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist.  Then they would be killed by him or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reign for a long time.  But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be the holy pope, and his perserved followers, will descend on the earth, and will preach the right faith of Christ to all, and will convert those who will be living then to the true faith of Jesus Christ. (Gumerlock’s translation of the Latin text in Francis Gumerlock, “A Rapture Citation in the Fourteenth Century,” Bibliotheca Sacra (July-Sept. 2002), pp. 354-55.)

      Gumerlock clearly believes that this is a pretrib rapture statement as he concludes:

      Two things are fairly certain from The History of Brother Dolcino.  First, Dolcino and the Apostolic Brethren believed that the purpose of the rapture was related to the escape of the saints from the end-time tribulation and persecution of the Antichrist.  Second, Dolcino and the Apostolic Brethren believed that there would be a significant gap of time between the rapture of the saints to paradise and their subsequent descent to earth.  Because of this The History of Brother Dolcino stands as yet another literary witness for the existence of pretribulationism before the nineteenth century.  As such, it challenges evangelicals to reevaluate their thinking about the history of the pretribulational rapture, especially those views that place the origin of the teaching or its initial recovery within the last two hundred years.  For this fourteenth-century text demonstrates that there were some in the Middle Ages who held a theology of the rapture that includes basic elements in pretribulationalism. (“A Rapture Citation,” p. 362)

      Frank Marotta believes that Thomas Collier in 1674 makes reference to a pretribulational rapture, but rejects the view, (Frank Marotta, Morgan Edwards:  An Eighteenth Century Pretribulationist (Present Truth Publishers, 1995), pp. 10-12.) thus showing his awareness that such a view was being taught.  One could not have objected to something that did not exist.

      Perhaps the clearest reference to a pretrib rapture before Darby comes from Baptist Morgan Edwards (founder of Brown University) in 1742-44 who saw a distinct rapture three and a half years before the start of the millennium.  During his student days at Bristol Baptist Seminary in England (1742-44), Morgan Edwards wrote an essay for eschatology class on his views of Bible prophecy.  This essay was later published in Philadelphia (1788) under the following title:  Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties.  The term in the title "Last-Novelties" refers to what we would call today the eternal state; "novelties" refers to the new conditions of the future new heavens and new earth, not that he had a novel view of the Bible.  Upon reading the 56-page work, it is evident that Edwards published it with only minor changes from his student days.  Thus, it represents a view that he had developed by the early 1740s.  Thus, we can date Edwards’ pretribulationism as originating in the early 1740s.  The pretribulationism of Morgan Edwards can be see in the following statement from his book:

II.  The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.

I say, somewhat more—, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time?  No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house" (John xiv. 2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time.  The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be "at the house of God" (I Pet. iv. 17) . . . (p. 7; emphasis added; the spelling of all Edwards quotes have been modernized)

      What has Edwards said?  Note the following:

• He believes that at least 1,003.5 years will transpire between resurrections.

• He associates the first resurrection with the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, occurring at least 3.5 years before the start of the millennium (i.e., at least 3.5 years before the second coming of Christ at the start of the millennium).

• He associates the meeting of believers with Christ in the air and returning to the Father's house with John 14:2, as do modern pretribulationists.

• He sees believers disappearing during the time of the tribulation, which he goes on to describe in the rest of the section from which the rapture statement is taken.

• He, like modern pretribulationists, links the time in heaven, during the tribulation, with the "bema” judgment of believers.

      It is clear that Edwards believed in a two-staged return of Christ at least 85 years before Darby.  Edwards’ pre-Darby statement is something that MacPherson cannot answer.  I am not claiming that Darby was influenced by Morgan Edwards.

Conclusion

      F.F. Bruce's conclusion as to where Darby got the doctrine of the pretrib rapture appears to be correct.  “It was in the air in the 1820s and 1830s among eager students of unfulfilled prophecy, . . . direct dependence by Darby on Margaret Macdonald is unlikely.” (F. F. Bruce, Review of The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin in The Evangelical Quarterly, (Jan-Mar, 1975), p. 58.)  Dave MacPherson has failed to demonstrate that Macdonald's “prophecy” contains latent rapture ideas, nor has he linked Darby to her influence with clear, historical evidence.  This is why the doctrine of the pretribulational rapture did not begin with Margaret Macdonald.  Perhaps Darby's training at Dublin accounts for many of his views, especially his views of the nature of the church.  Walvoord concludes,

any careful student of Darby soon discovers that he did not get his eschatological views from men, but rather from his doctrine of the church as the body of Christ, a concept no one claims was revealed supernaturally to Irving or Macdonald.  Darby's views undoubtedly were gradually formed, but they were theologically and biblically based rather than derived from Irving's pre-Pentecostal group. (Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation, p. 47.)

By Tommy Ice
http://www.raptureready.com/who/Dave_MacPherson.html

[Psalm 51:17]

It is clear that Edwards believed in a two-staged return of Christ at least 85 years before Darby.  Edwards’ pre-Darby statement is something that MacPherson cannot answer.  I am not claiming that Darby was influenced by Morgan Edwards.

Margaret MacDonald wasn't born during Edwards's time either. So if I read MacDonald's quotes correctly, she didn't have this "pre-trib" position? I don't understand it completely, but it's pretty clear she doesn't.

I'm not the world's biggest fan of these "prophecy teachers", but this writer did a very good job in terms of referencing all of his research. Even anti-pretrib people at the time 1) Pointed out MacDonald's non-pre trib vision, and 2) Pointed out others that were teaching pre-trib before Darby. Honestly, I'm not 100% sure if it's pre, mid, or post trib, however, it's quite clear there were people way before Darby's time that were teaching pre-trib/pre-mill. What does this mean? I don't know - but it's not good at all to repeat a lie over and over and over again when the gospel is trying to be preached.

2Co_2:17  For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

[Psalm 51:17]

Mark, don't mean to call you out here, but I have a question on this, largely b/c I'm looking at the KJV and the NIV(no, I'm not endorsing the latter)...

KJV
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

NIV
1Co 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Here's my question - the KJV uses the word "trump", while the NIV(and the other perverted versions) use "trumpet". So the KJV uses trump b/c they're distinguising it from the 7 trumpet judgments in Revelation? The reason why I'm asking is b/c the other versions use trumpet, and there seems to be mistranslations with other words in this verse(ie-"shall" and "will" doesn't have the same future tense meaning, right?).

Kilika, I don't mean to call you out either(and I know you don't like these discussions), but on this PARTICULAR VERSE ALONE is my main question concerning trump vs. trumpet.

[Kilika]

Hmm, well, I read "trump" as the sound that a trumpet makes. Now if you read it as the NIV, it reads that at the last trumpet, which I read as an instrument, not the sound it makes.

One is the sound it makes, and the other is the object that makes the sound.

"shall be" versus "will be"? It should be "shall", but I don't see any difference in the definitions of each.

Here's a little english info...

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/the-difference-between-will-and-shall/

[Mark]

Mark, don't mean to call you out here, but I have a question on this, largely b/c I'm looking at the KJV and the NIV(no, I'm not endorsing the latter)...

KJV
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

NIV
1Co 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Here's my question - the KJV uses the word "trump", while the NIV(and the other perverted versions) use "trumpet". So the KJV uses trump b/c they're distinguising it from the 7 trumpet judgments in Revelation? The reason why I'm asking is b/c the other versions use trumpet, and there seems to be mistranslations with other words in this verse(ie-"shall" and "will" doesn't have the same future tense meaning, right?).

well for starters, which trumpet? How is this indicated what so ever with the 7 trumpets of revelation? There are also 3 special trumpets in the Tribulation that will sound. Their is a trumpet that signals The Lords departure and return to Earth with "all his saints". There was the start of a special trumpet when Israel gathered to move. The Lord started a trumpet series during his giving of the Law in Exodus 20 and on. We have no idea really what the last trumpet is or means.

Exo 19:18  And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Exo 19:19   And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.


Exo 20:18  And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

As we can see here, just when the Lord is talking to Israel, there is the sound of the trumpet. For all we know, that verse could be referring to the sound that will be made when the Lord calls us to him at the Rapture. You see there is just no indication as to what the Last Trump is that is in reference there.

Here is CF's explanation:

The "last trump" which signals the Rapture of the Church is the SECOND OF TWO RAM'S HORNS (SHOFARIM), not the final of the seven in Revelation. This is the trump of God, not a trumpet blown by an angel. The first was on the Mount where Moses heard it, and the last will be the last sound the Church hears before meeting the Lord for a marriage in heaven.

Abraham saved the two horns of the ram caught in a thicket, which were later used in temple service according to the pattern in the heavenlies that God showed Moses. Anyone who blows a shofar will quickly learn that what is described in this scene is supernatural. It is normal to run out of air and for the sound to become weaker and less loud. God has no such limitation... and there was no supernatural being mentioned in the verses except God.

There is also the last shout as the groom comes for his bride in the ancient Jewish wedding ceremony that the rapture of the church is built upon. The church is the Bride of Christ and everything dealing with the church is set with in those parameters. And as the Groom goes forth to claim his Bride, a shout or a trumpet is sounded to show his departure to get her, so she knows he is coming. Here is a link to that.
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=77297.msg1061330#msg1061330

[Psalm 51:17]

I THINK I understand what you guys are saying concerning this particular verse - no, I didn't want to start up this debate again, but just wanted to ask a specific question about this verse(ie-the last trump).

OK, whether one is pre, mid, or post trib, I think we all have to come to an understanding that this particular verse doesn't rhyme with one of the 7 angels blowing the last trumpet in Revelation. Hence using the word trump(which could mean any sound, like Kilika said), while the other versions use trumpet. For all we know, this trump sound could be a shouting of a voice or a blowing of a horn. Anyhow, I think I also understand what you guys are saying too...this verse doesn't refer to one of the trumpet judgments in Revelation either, as it's referring to the saints(ie-changing their corruptible bodies to incorruptible...).

Anyhow, I think I got this particular passage cleared up in terms of understanding - thank you again, guys.