The PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE DOCTRINE is a HOAX ?

[akfools]

WARNING: The PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE DOCTRINE
is a HOAX and a DANGEROUS DECEPTION
$1,000 REWARD

Promissory Note: The undersigned maker of this Promissory Note hereby promises to pay $1,000 (one
thousand U.S. "dollars") cash (Federal Reserve Notes) reward to the first person who can present him with a
single scripture passage ANYWHERE in the King James Version of the Holy Bible which says that the
Rapture of the Church (1 Thes. 4:15-18, etc.) will take place before the "Great Tribulation" and Second
Coming of Christ as prophesied by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:21-31 and described in the Book of
Revelation chapters 6-19. Reward to be paid within 30 days of presentment of said scripture passage.




 TO THE CONTRARY 





All scriptures dealing with the timing of the Second Coming of Christ and Rapture of the Church
show these to be ONE EVENT (not two) taking place at the END of the Tribulation period:

1. The Apostle Paul Taught a Post-tribulation Rapture
2 Thessalonians 2:3 - "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [(our gathering together unto Him, v. 1)]
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..."

Paul's point: the Rapture cannot occur before great apostasy occurs in the church and antichrist is revealed. Furthermore:

1 Corinthians15:51-52 - "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Note: Since the Rapture occurs at the "last trump" (same trumpet mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:16), it CANNOT take
place before the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11:15-18, or before the trumpet call foretold by the Lord Jesus:

2. The Lord Jesus Taught a Post-tribulation Rapture
Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27) - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and
the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be
shaken... And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from
the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Compare with 1 Thes 4:16-17; is the same event)

Note: Jesus said very clearly that the gathering of the elect from heaven and earth (i.e., the Rapture of the
Church, Mk. 13:27) occurs immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days (Mt. 24:29, Mk. 13:24).

3. The Apostle John Taught a Post-tribulation Rapture
Revelation 20:4-6 [(Occuring AFTER the Tribulation of ch. 6-19)]:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that
were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither
his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with
Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they
shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Note: This event is not only named the first resurrection, but there is no previous (pre-trib) resurrection
presented or alluded to in the book of Revelation. If the Rapture (our resurrection) preceded the Tribulation,
the event in Rev. 20 would be the second resurrection, not the first. The Pre-trib Rapture Doctrine is a Hoax.
Christians have been deceived! For more proof of
the Post-Tribulation Rapture see the attached outline.
Christians must wake up, watch and prepare for very
dark days ahead, holding fast to the blessed hope of
our soon coming Saviour, while taking seriously the
warning of Rev. 18:4 to "come out of her, My people..."

e-signature of the Maker of this Promissory Note:
Samuel CAdams
Samuel Clay Adams c/o ph. no. 813-975-7176
c/o 8875 Hidden River Pkwy Suite 300 Tampa, FL
offer void where prohibited by law

The Post-Tribulation Rapture of the Church
by Sam Adams

The doctrine of the "Rapture" of the Church is clearly taught in scripture as its meaning is inferred from the Greek
word “harpazo,” translated “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. However, among premillenialists (those who rightly
believe that the Second Coming of Christ precedes his literal thousand year reign on earth, Rev. 19-20) there are
several opposing views concerning the timing of the rapture in relation to the "Great Tribulation" of Matt. 24:21-29,
Daniel 12:1, Rev. 6-19 etc. The following arguments show that contrary to the popular Pre-tribulation rapture position,
the Post-Tribulation Rapture (the Church to be on earth through the entire Tribulation period) is the only position
clearly taught in scripture, and which easily harmonizes with all passages dealing with the Second Coming of Christ.

1. The Apostle Paul clearly taught a Post-trib Rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Since the Resurrection/Rapture occurs at the “last trump” it cannot take
place before the "great sound of a trumpet" mentioned by the Lord Jesus in Matt. 24:31 (which occurs after the
Tribulation), nor can it precede the Seven Trumpet Judgments of Revelation 8-11, and actually occurs at the 7th
trumpet itself (Rev. 11:15-18). This "last trump" is the same trumpet mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:16 and Matt. 24:31:

2. The Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27) clearly taught a Post-Tribulation Rapture.
"Immediately after the Tribulation of those days .... he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (cf. Mark 13:27)
Jesus clearly said the trumpet will sound and the elect will be gathered immediately after the Tribulation (Post-trib
rapture!). Pre-trib proponents must dismiss this passage by saying it does not refer to the Rapture, which it clearly
DOES refer to. The following arguments show that the event described in v. 31 IS the rapture of the Church:
a. The event in this passage being the rapture easily harmonizes with the other “rapture” passages
- Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven - cf. 1 Thes. 4:17 (Daniel 7:13)
- heralded by sound of a great trumpet - cf. 1 Thes. 4:16, 1 Cor. 15:52 (Rev. 11:15-18)
- accompanied by the angels - cf. 1 Thes. 4:16 (voice of archangel); 2 Thes 1:4-10
- gathering the elect from heaven and earth - Mark 13:27, 1 Thes. 4:14-17; 2 Thes 2:1 gathering
b. Jesus is privately addressing His chosen disciples (Peter, James, John & Andrew) in this discourse (see Mk.
13:3), to whom He had already announced the conception of the Church (Matt 16:18, 18:17). If the Church
was to escape the Tribulation, Jesus would certainly have told these men who would be leading the early
Church. Instead, he taught them to prepare for the Tribulation, to expect persecution or martyrdom, and to
await their promised deliverance after the Tribulation of those days. He would not have told these men to
expect the Tribulation if he was later going to reveal to the Apostle Paul that the church would be exempted.
c. The dispensational argument that Jesus is addressing Israel in this discourse rather than the Church, that
the “elect” in this passage is the elect remnant of Israel on earth during the Tribulation, is false:

1. Verse 9 shows that Jesus is addressing Christians, not Israel ("for my name's sake," John 15:18-21).

2. The disciples being addressed represent his disciples on earth both before and during the Tribulation,
both before the gospel is preached in all the world, and after; see v. 14-15, & “you” in v. 9 & 26

3. If the "elect" in this passage were saved before the Tribulation, they should have been raptured with the
church. If they were not saved before the presumed Pre-trib. rapture of the Church, how did they get
saved afterward? How did the "great multitude" of Rev. 7:14 get saved during the Tribulation? If these
are all saved through the ministry of the 144,000 "Jewish evangelists" of Rev 7:4, how did the 144,000
get saved? If the 144,000 were saved before the Tribulation, why weren't they raptured with the church?

4. The Pre-trib. doctrine that the Church will be removed from earth for the 144,000 to succeed where the
Church could not (in converting Israel) is totally contrary to the stated mission of the church, which was
to preach the gospel to the Jew first, and then the Gentile (Rom. 1:16). Jesus said the gates of hell
would not prevail against His church; how much less stubborn Israelites who refuse to be saved!

5. The Pre-trib concept that Jewish believers (or any believer for that matter) saved during the Tribulation
are less deserving of escaping God's wrath than we are (or more deserving of going through the
Tribulation) is untenable and absurd, and is not supported anywhere in scripture.

d. Throughout the N.T. the word “elect” as used in v. 31(Gr. eklectos [1588], meaning “chosen”) refers not to
Israel but to the Church, including both Jews and Gentiles called to salvation: Luke 18:7, Rom. 8:33, 9:11-
16, Rom 11:7 (the elect have obtained what Israel could not); Col. 3:12; 1 Thes. 1:4; Tit 1:1; 1 Pet 1:2; 5:13;
2 John 1,13. There is nothing in the context of Matt. 24 to indicate that “elect” means something else in that
particular passage. The context indicates that the “elect” in Matt. 24 is NOT Israel, but IS the Church.


3. The Apostle Paul taught a Post-trib Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8.
The plain sense interpretation and obvious point of this passage, meant to dispel false alarm at Thessalonica, is
that the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and “our gathering together unto Him” in v. 1 (the "Day of Christ" in v. 2
and “that day” in v. 3) will not occur until after the “falling away” (apostasy) and the antichrist is revealed and
destroyed in v. 3. (The word “by” in v. 1 (Gr. huper, 5228) could be better translated “concerning” or “regarding”).
The Pre-trib argument from this passage that the Church must be the restraining influence of verses 6-7 and thus
must be removed from the earth is false. According to the Pre-trib position, "he who now letteth" in v. 7 is the
Holy Spirit as He is working through the Church, and therefore the Church must be removed from earth before the
antichrist can be revealed. However, the Holy Spirit’s ministry of indwelling believers is not equivalent with His
ministry of restraining the antichrist (if in fact the "He" of the passage is the Holy Spirit, which is not clearly
shown). The Holy Spirit is eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient God, is not limited only to indwelling
believers, and can cease restraining antichrist without the Church being raptured.
The "falling away" in v. 3 (Gr. apostosia, meaning rebellion; 1 Tim 4:1-2, Matt 24:10 etc.) cannot mean the rapture
(departure from earth rather than from the faith) as claimed by many Pre-trib proponents because that is totally
contrary to the clear meaning of the Greek word apostosia which carries a negative meaning of rebellion and
anarchy, and because the Apostle Paul would then be making the contradictory statement that our gathering
together unto him (v. 1) will not happen until after our gathering together unto Him (v.3).

4. The Lord Jesus taught a Post-Tribulation Rapture in his parables.
a. The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares in Matthew 13:24-30,36-43 disproves the Pre-trib rapture theory,
showing it is the wicked that will be removed from earth (Rev. 19:14-21) not the righteous; after which the
Rapture will occur, the dead in Christ will be raised, and those believers who survive the Tribulation will be
transformed to enter the Millennium (Rev. 20:1-4, 1 Cor. 15:51-52, 1 Thes. 4:16-17, Matt. 24:31)
b. The parable of the days of Noah in Matthew 24:37-41 agrees with the Parable of the Wheat and Tares; it is
the wicked that were "taken away" in the flood, not the righteous.

5. The Book of Revelation teaches a Post-Tribulation Rapture.
Rev. 20:4-6 describes the Resurrection (the "First Resurrection") of the Righteous who will reign with Christ on
earth for 1000 years. The event is presented in clear chronological order following the Tribulation period and the
Battle of Armageddon, after the antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire and Satan is bound
for the thousand years. There is no previous resurrection presented in Revelation (although this same event
is alluded to in 11:15-19, the 7th Trumpet). This event, in Rev. 20:4, IS the Rapture of the Church.
The event in Rev. 20 is referred to as the “First Resurrection.” If there was another resurrection or rapture
before the Tribulation, the event in Rev. 20 would be the Second resurrection, not the First. A simple word study
of the word "first" in its context in Rev. 20 shows that the word clearly means first in chronological order, not
"best" as some have claimed. It is the "first" resurrection as compared and opposed to the second resurrection
and "second death" of the wicked a thousand years later following the Millenial reign of Christ (Rev 20:12-15).
The Pre-trib position typically attempts to claim the words to the Apostle John in Rev. 4:1 “Come up hither” as
being a veiled, hidden reference to the rapture. This is absurd, given the clear and unmistakable presentation in
Rev. 20 of the First Resurrection, and the fact that the Rapture of the Church is to be a glorious, unmistakable,
creation-changing event (Rom. 8:18-23), not a secret, silent event (#9 below). If the First Resurrection in Rev. 20
is presented so clearly, not hidden in a verse to be secretively interpreted like 4:1, why wouldn’t a Pre-trib rapture
or resurrection also be as clearly presented? The attempt to find a Pre-trib rapture in Revelation 4:1 is typical of
the many secretive and twisted interpretations required to come up with any teaching of a Pre-trib rapture.

6. The Pre-trib argument that the Church is not mentioned in the book of Revelation after chapter 3 and
that hence the rapture must have occurred at Rev. 4:1 is blatantly false.
a. An argument from silence is a weak argument. The Bible does not contain the words “rapture” or “trinity” but
still clearly teaches these doctrines. The word “church” is also not found in the books of 2 Timothy, Titus, 2
Peter, 1 or 2 John or Jude, but these books are clearly written both to and about the Church.
b. The book of Jude does not mention the Church by name, but uses the word “saints” to refer to the Church in
v. 3 & 14, just as the Apostle John does throughout the book of Revelation (Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4, 11:18, 13:7,
13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 18:24, and 19:8). Other references to a faithful church remnant in Revelation
are the martyrs of 6:9-11 and 7:9-17, those who die in the Lord in Rev. 14:13, and the people of God called
out of Babylon, Rev. 18:4. The Church is seen all throughout the book of Revelation. To say that these
saints or believers are saved Jews who believe during the Tribulation, but who are not as worthy as we are
of being spared that awful time, is absolutely untenable (see 1.c.5 above and 10.c below).


7. The Second Coming of Christ is presented throughout the Bible as a one-time climactic event, not to be
divided into two phases of Rapture (resurrection) and then Return. Jesus will return at the end of
the Tribulation, first to put down antichrist’s rebellion, and then to resurrect His saints.
a. Nowhere in the Bible is there any indication or teaching given that the Second Advent will be in two phases,
or that it will be preceded seven years beforehand by such a momentous event as the rapture of the Church.
This doctrine (two-stage return) was not taught by any of the Apostles. All references to the Second
Coming are of one end-time event. (Matt. 16:27-28; Matt. 24-25; Mark 13; Luke 12:35-40; Luke 21; John
14:1-3; 1 Cor. 1:7-8; 1 Cor. 15:23-24, 51-53; Phillip. 3:20-21; 1 Thes. 3:13, 4:15-18 & 5:23; 2 Thes. 1:4-10,
2:8; 1 Tim 6:14, 2 Tim 4:1-8; Titus 2:13; 1 Pet 1:7,13 & 4:12-13; 1 Jn 3:2, Rev. 19:11-21)
b. The three Greek words used in the NT for the Second Coming (parousia, epiphaneia, and apokolupsis) are
used interchangeably in relation to all end-time events associated with the Second Coming, with no
distinction ever being made between the Rapture and the Return of Christ:

1. Apokalupsis (602) - usually translated “revelation” or “revealed,” used in the following passages:

2 Thes. 1:5-10 - Christ coming with his angels to end our suffering (no promise of Pre-trib rapture - the
comfort given in this passage is the vengeance to be taken on the enemies of God’s people)
1 Peter 1:7,13 & 4:13 - Christ coming after the testing of our faith by fire (no Pre-trib promise)
1 Cor. 1:7-8 - Christ coming at “the end,” confirming the saints unto the Day of Christ

The apokalupsis of Christ occurs at the end, at the day of the Lord, after the testing of our faith by
fire, when He comes with his angels taking vengeance on His enemies, to be glorified in His saints.

2. Epiphaneia (2015) - usually translated “appearing,” used in the following passages:

2 Thes. 2:8 - (translated “brightness” in KJV) - destruction of antichrist
1 Tim 6:14 (v. 11-19) - conclusion of church ministry and service
2 Tim 4:1 - judgment of the living and the dead
Titus 2:13 - our blessed hope


The epiphaneia of Christ is our blessed hope, at which time antichrist will be destroyed, our work
on earth will be ended, and the living and the dead will be judged (1 Thes. 4:16, 2 Cor. 5:10)

3. Parousia (3952) - usually translated “coming,” used in the following passages:
Matt. 24:3,27,30 - Christ’s coming at the second advent following the “tribulation of those days”
1 Cor. 15:23 - Resurrection of those that are Christ’s at His coming
1 Thes. 3:13 - Christ coming with all His saints
1 Thes. 4:15 - the Rapture occurs at Christ’s coming
1 Thes 5:23 - Paul’s prayer for believers to remain blameless until the Lord’s coming
2 Thes 2:8 - Destruction of antichrist by the appearing (epiphaneia) of Christ’s coming (parousia)


At the parousia of Christ, all the above takes place: Christ comes with his saints, after the tribulation,
to destroy antichrist, and to resurrect (rapture) all those “asleep” in Christ
Conclusion: the way these Greek words are used interchangeably in relation to all these end-time
events, with no distinction made between rapture and return, indicates that they all take place at
about the same time in planned sequence and are not separated by the 7- year Tribulation Period.

8. The argument that the "Imminency" of the Rapture (that it is the next prophetic event to be fulfilled with no
signs preceding it) requires the Rapture to Precede the Tribulation, is false. This argument is based on
circular reasoning (use of a false conclusion drawn from the Pre-trib position in attempt to support the Pre-trib
theory). We are given several signs in Matthew 24 (and elsewhere) which Jesus himself clearly taught would
precede His return. These signs include the Gospel being preached in all nations, the coming of the great
tribulation, the great "apostasy" and rise of antichrist (2 Thes. 2:1-3), the martyrdom of Peter (John 21:18-19), etc.
The passage of time cannot change the meaning of scripture. If the Lord's return was not imminent (any moment)
when scripture was written (it wasn't imminent for Peter!), it cannot be so now either. There are several signs
that must be fulfilled before the Lord's return. No man can know the day or hour of the Lord's return, but we are
"not in darkness" and are supposed to know when it is near (Matt. 24:33, 1 Thes. 5:4).

9. The Rapture of the Church will be a glorious, unmistakable, creation-changing event; not a secret, silent
event (hidden in the veiled reference of Rev. 4:1) as taught by the Pre-trib position. Therefore the Rapture of
the Church must occur after the Tribulation and at the beginning of the Millennial Reign of Christ:
a. Romans 8:18-23 - all creation awaits our glorification, the “redemption of our body,” when all creation will be
restored to its Edenic state at the beginning of the Millennial Reign
b. The “shout, the voice of the archangel and the trump of God” in 1 Thes. 4 sounds unmistakably loud and
boisterous, not a secretive and silent catching away as taught by popular proponents of the Pre-trib position.
(4)

10. The Pre-trib argument that the nature of the Church (the Bride of Christ) forbids it going through the
Tribulation is in error. This argument is based on the premise that the church is exempt from suffering the
wrath of God, Rom. 5:9, 1 Thes. 5:9, Rev. 3:10. This argument is in error because:
a. The “wrath” mentioned in these passages may well (and usually does) refer to the wrath of eternal judgment
in hell rather than suffering through the Tribulation (see Rom 1:18, 2:5-10, Heb. 3:11, etc.)
b. Promise of deliverance from the wrath of God does not include deliverance from Satan’s wrath, which will
be leveled against believers during the Tribulation (Rev. 12:11-12, 13:7-10, Dan. 7:21, 25 & 8:24).
c. If believers are exempt from the wrath of the great Tribulation, then those who believe during the Tribulation
must be immediately raptured upon conversion, which is clearly not the case.
d. Christians need not be removed from earth for God to protect them from His wrath (John 17:15).
God’s protection of the Israelites during the plagues on Egypt typifies protection of the faithful remnant of the
Church during the Tribulation (similar plagues). Noah was not removed from earth during God’s judgment
but was protected through it. Lot was not raptured but was moved to a place of safety. The phrase “I also
will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world” in Rev. 3:10 can refer to
divine protection rather than removal from the earth, and was a conditional promise given to only one of the
seven churches of Asia, as compared to the promise of persecution and Tribulation given to the faithful
church at Smyrna (Rev. 2:8-11). There is NO evidence anywhere in scripture that these seven churches
signify seven historical church "ages" as is commonly taught.
e. Jesus will return for a Bride that has made herself ready (Rev 19:7), and that has been purged, purified, and
made white (Dan 11:35, 12:10). This purification will happen, as always throughout history, through the
refining fire of suffering and persecution (Acts 14:22).

CONCLUSION
All rapture positions which postulate that the Rapture will precede all or any part of the Tribulation are in direct
conflict with several passages of Scripture, especially with Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27), 1 Corinthians 15:51-52,
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 and Revelation 20:4-5. The "Pre-trib" rapture doctrine is a hoax and a dangerous deception.
There is no verse or passage anywhere in the Bible that says that the Rapture must precede the Tribulation.
The arguments given to support a Pre-trib rapture are indirect and very weak at best, and involve forced, spiritualized
or secretive interpretations to conform the text to the Pre-trib position rather than relying on the plain-sense
interpretation of the scripture; e.g., the spiritual interpretations of Israel’s feast days being fulfilled in the New
Testament, the elect of Matt. 24 being Israel, Rev. 4:1 signifying the Rapture, Hebrew wedding traditions, etc. The
Pre-trib position is not exegetically derived from scripture, but is instead a pre-conceived extra-Biblical position forcing
secretive and twisted interpretations of all passages it obviously conflicts with. The Post-Tribulation Rapture position
has none of these conflicts, was the historic position of the Apostles and early church, and because it IS exegetically
derived from scripture it easily harmonizes with all passages related to the second coming of Christ. The great danger
of the Pre-trib position is that it has brainwashed Christians into believing they can ignore developments in government
and society that enable fulfillment of Revelation 13, and to ignore the warnings of Matthew 24 and chapters 6-18 of the
book of Revelation (esp. 18:4), having been deceived into believing those passages do not apply to them.

THEREFORE
What then should Christians do? REJOICE! We are living in the most exciting days of all recorded history. The
coming of the Lord is drawing near. However, as the early church taught, "we must through much tribulation enter into
the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). It is this writer's opinion that the necessary mechanisms are all in place for Satan to
attempt to implement the enslavement of all humanity under the rule of the antichrist, from the globally connected
electronic banking system and the microchip ID implant which may possibly become the "mark of the beast," to the
global government system being set up through the Vatican and UN. Christians must draw near to the Lord, separate
themselves from the world, ask for His wisdom, and do all they can to prepare for very difficult days ahead, including
preparing spiritually and mentally to undergo great persecution such as the Western church has not seen in centuries.
It is this writer's opinion that Christians should begin NOW to remove themselves from the economic system known in
the Bible as "Babylon" (Rev. 18:4), by withdrawing from the banking and SS ("social security") system, and by learning
how to function outside those systems. Christians must learn the Biblical function and limitations of civil government
and their duty to resist wickedness in those "high places" (Titus 3:1 vs. Eph. 6:12, Acts 5:29 & 17:7). Finally, and most
importantly, Christians should become aggressive, confrontational soul-winners and do all they can to win the lost to
the Lord, because the hour is late. This writer also believes there will be special protection and provision in the midst
of tribulation for those who determine to be soul-winners in the last days (Dan. 12:3, Prov. 11:30, Rev. 3:10).

[Psalm 51:17]

I think the big error of the pre-trib rapture doctrine is over the belief that the antichirst can't be revealed until the church gets raptured. NOT the entire doctrine itself.

2nd The 2 says the gathering of the saints doesn't happen until a falling away happens AND the man of sin be revealed.

Now while I don't completely endorse Steve Jackson's INWO game, nonetheless, there is a rapture card called "tape runs out"(I forgot the exact event on the card, but for those that have seen it, you know what I'm talking about - apparently, the NWO minions have already prepared an "explanation" over these "disappearances" after the world teacher emerges - Bill Howard, a high level theosophist, has admitted this). It is placed RIGHT AFTER the "messiah" card(when maitreya the world teacher reveals himself).

So yeah, personally, I'm a post-trib believer(church will have to go through the 7 year tribulation), however, it's possible that Jesus could snatch away his church from the 7 year trib. If this is the case, then it won't happen until after the antichrist reveals himself.

[Psalm 51:17]

I lean more towards a Pre-Tribulation rapture. I recieved this document from Scott Johnson awhile back after asking him his position on the rapture. He said that this was what he leaned towards but he did not say that he believed in Post Trib hands down. Remember, he is "Pan" Trib.  :)However it pans out. Just thought I would post it. If you would like the PDF file for this let me know.

I remember my first email to Dr. Johnson over 2 years ago(when I ran into his maitreya teaching when I was doing an internet search for something else) - I asked him what his position is on this issue, and he emailed me back this document.

But yeah, like said above, don't panic if we're still here and the world teacher is revealed.

[Mark]

WARNING: The PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE DOCTRINE
is a HOAX and a DANGEROUS DECEPTION
$1,000 REWARD

Promissory Note: The undersigned maker of this Promissory Note hereby promises to pay $1,000 (one
thousand U.S. "dollars") cash (Federal Reserve Notes) reward to the first person who can present him with a
single scripture passage ANYWHERE in the King James Version of the Holy Bible which says that the
Rapture of the Church (1 Thes. 4:15-18, etc.) will take place before the "Great Tribulation" and Second
Coming of Christ as prophesied by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:21-31 and described in the Book of
Revelation chapters 6-19. Reward to be paid within 30 days of presentment of said scripture passage.




 TO THE CONTRARY 




cant do it with 1 verse.  so no one will ever win this. 

but lets see here.

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Included in these armies of Heaven at Jesus 2nd coming, is all the saints. How can we be going up IE: ruptured at the second coming if we are coming down on horses? In order to come down with the Lord we had to go up earlier. sorry, post trib's...

I think the big error of the pre-trib rapture doctrine is over the belief that the antichirst can't be revealed until the church gets raptured. NOT the entire doctrine itself.

Thr Tribulation does not start until the signing of the treaty. In order for the Antichrist to sign the treaty means that he will already be revealed to the world. yet the world will not recognize him. So you can still have a pre trib rapture, after the antichrist is revealed.

[seekingtheanswers]

yeah i lean towards post trib as well but i would sure love to go before the trib starts, i don't want to have my head chopped off or witness the destruction after each trumpet. every time scott does a teaching on preparing for such times i feel horrible because i don't have anything stored or some bunker i can hide away in.

[Mark]

yeah i lean towards post trib as well but i would sure love to go before the trib starts, i don't want to have my head chopped off or witness the destruction after each trumpet. every time scott does a teaching on preparing for such times i feel horrible because i don't have anything stored or some bunker i can hide away in.

stored food would only last so long, and how will a bunker help with the 6th seal? seriously, reread revelations and just what is going to happen. It is going to be a horrific time, thank God that it is a pre trib Rapture.

[Psalm 51:17]

yeah i lean towards post trib as well but i would sure love to go before the trib starts, i don't want to have my head chopped off or witness the destruction after each trumpet. every time scott does a teaching on preparing for such times i feel horrible because i don't have anything stored or some bunker i can hide away in.

As for stored food - don't sweat it. If let's say one has alot of resources in their banks...well, as we all know, the banksters are looting everything little by little, would be beast to clean it out as much as possible right now. Better safe than sorry.

But if like myself have very little - just be very thankful you have your 1611 Authorized Version with you and in your heart. THAT is the BIG thing that will get us through all tribulations with the guide of the Holy Spirit.

As for a bunker? Re-read the 6th seal in Rev - those living in bunkers will be BEGGING for the mountains and rocks to FALL on them.

[Kilika]

Jesus told us that in the world we would have tribulation. Tribulation? Scared? Afraid something bad will happen? Why when God Almighty Himself is for you? Doesn't matter what tribulation. Jesus said He would keep us from the evil. The unbelieving need to worry.

It is the unbelieveng that fear what is coming on the earth.

"Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken." Luke 21:26 (KJB)

[Psalm 51:17]

Jesus told us that in the world we would have tribulation. Tribulation? Scared? Afraid something bad will happen? Why when God Almighty Himself is for you? Doesn't matter what tribulation. Jesus said He would keep us from the evil. The unbelieving need to worry.

It is the unbelieveng that fear what is coming on the earth.

"Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken." Luke 21:26 (KJB)

Maybe this is just side-tracking this thread a TAD bit, but...is it just me, or is the Preterist/A-Mill crowd the ones that are belittling, and to some extent mocking the so-called "Futurism" crowd? No, I'm not talking about the ones that believe the heresy that Rev and Daniel happened in 70 AD(yes, Gary DeMar has referred to himself as a "scholar" while belittling those that believe Rev takes place at the end), however...

Just from my own personal experiences, it seems like the A-Mil/Preterist crowd are the ones calling the "Futurism" crowd "fearmongerers", "Tim LaHaye kool-aid drinkers", "John Darbyists", etc, etc. And they claim how it's the Jesuits that made up futurism. Oh wait a minute...wasn't it Augustine who made up this A-Mill heresy? But somehow this Historicism/A-Mill doctrine is true? And for that matter, for those that teach A-Mill/Preterism, while they say we have nothing to fear, you CAN SENSE fear coming out of them(ie-actions speak louder than words).

Anyhow, yeah, I agree with Kilika et al that we have nothing to fear, but truth IS truth.

[seekingtheanswers]

thanks all. that makes me feel better. i suppose ur right bornagain about the bunker, only the rich could afford to build one anyways. it would make sense that they would be the ones down there hiding from God's wrath.

[Psalm 51:17]

thanks all. that makes me feel better. i suppose ur right bornagain about the bunker, only the rich could afford to build one anyways. it would make sense that they would be the ones down there hiding from God's wrath.

Ultimately,we should all be thankful that we have God's word, as they're being fulfilled before our very eyes.

Yeah, the fact that they've been building underground bunkers since the 70's or so, tells us right that that the 6th seal in Rev 6 is right around the corner. And of course all the prophecies that Jesus told us about 2000 years ago in Matthew 24(among others).

So I guess for now...Kilika, I think you mentioned this last year...we might as well get some popcorn and watch these prophecies unfolding(can I add some grape juice too?  )?

[akfools]

With a post trib rapture, if we must not take the mark of the beast, then wouldnt that turn our salvation into work and no longer grace through faith?

[Kilika]

So I guess for now...Kilika, I think you mentioned this last year...we might as well get some popcorn and watch these prophecies unfolding(can I add some grape juice too?   )?

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." 1 Timothy 5:23 (KJB)

"And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch." Mark 13:37 (KJB)

[Kilika]

With a post trib rapture, if we must not take the mark of the beast, then wouldnt that turn our salvation into work and no longer grace through faith?

No, I don't see it that way. I do see where you might think that, as it does seem a "work" of avoiding the mark. However, it is the Spirit that will show us what to avoid, so it's not works, but faith that Jesus will show us how to keep us from the evil.

Just like the above verse about watching. Jesus says to watch events unfold. One COULD make the argument that's works, but it's not. Even having faith COULD be considered works, but it's not.

I see works as being something a person does out of requirement to earn something, when the just shall live by faith. Yes, we have works, but they are the fruit of the Spirit, right? The action of watching events unfold, or not taking the mark is an act of faith that God will direct our paths and show us the truth. By the Spirit we have the discenrment to know what's true.

If a person is born-again, then they are safe from any tribulation, period. "There is no fear in love...because fear hath torment".

Out of our faith, we are to have a performance out of what we have...

"Now therefore perform the doing [of it]; that as [there was] a readiness to will, so [there may be] a performance also out of that which ye have." 2 Corinthians 8:11 (KJB)

[Christian40]

With a post trib rapture, if we must not take the mark of the beast, then wouldnt that turn our salvation into work and no longer grace through faith?

Yes it would be works salvation!!

Bryan Delinger in his 9 sermons about the Pre-Trib Rapture said that the Church has to be raptured before this. The Tribulation Saints in the 7 years period would be under works salvation again (i think he said because they are Jews) ?

If a person is born-again, then they are safe from any tribulation, period. "There is no fear in love...because fear hath torment".

Out of our faith, we are to have a performance out of what we have...

I like how the Apostle John went with Jesus when He was on trial and in tribulation with no fear for his own life - the beloved disciple and God protected him, John could have easily been crucified too - yikes!

But also i'm thinking about: if a Christian corrupted the word of God would that Christian go to hell? isn't that a work that leads to death?

[MrAV1611Truth]

Is there anyone here who doesn't accept the rapture at all? Is it an an absolute concrete doctrine that is irrefutable by scripture? I've not done an indepth study on it and have on the most part stayed away from this issue as I don't want to be putting my faith in a rapture, but in the Lord and that He can deliver us from evil whether we're here or not. I've seen others (not here) who have their whole faith in the rapture, if they're not raptured you can just see their faith would fall apart.

[Mark]

Is there anyone here who doesn't accept the rapture at all? Is it an an absolute concrete doctrine that is irrefutable by scripture? I've not done an indepth study on it and have on the most part stayed away from this issue as I don't want to be putting my faith in a rapture, but in the Lord and that He can deliver us from evil whether we're here or not. I've seen others (not here) who have their whole faith in the rapture, if they're not raptured you can just see their faith would fall apart.

The Rapture is fully in scripture, the only issue is about the Timing. Whether it is pre or post tribulation.  It was also the Popes and the Catholic church that started a post trib belief, before them it was always pretrib.

[Psalm 51:17]

The Rapture is fully in scripture, the only issue is about the Timing. Whether it is pre or post tribulation.  It was also the Popes and the Catholic church that started a post trib belief, before them it was always pretrib.

For anyone who cares, this is in Steve Jackson's INWO card game-

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1753.cfm



"Rapture" -- Even though I was surprised at the detail of the other cards, the inclusion of this Rapture card shocked me greatly. The Rapture is something the Born Again Christians are aching for, not the Illuminati; but, then, I remembered an article I posted nearly five years ago, entitled, "The Rapture of the Church May Be Close, and Both Sides Are Waiting For It". In this article, I made the following very pertinent points:

+ Christians are mightily looking forward to the Rapture, based upon Revelation 3:10; I Thessalonians 4:13-5:4; I Corinthians 15:13-58; and others

* Occultists are also looking forward to the Rapture, having been alerted by their Guiding Spirits that such an event would occur! Beginning in 1987, 'Guiding Spirits' of key New World Order leaders began to inform these human leaders to start preparing their adherents for a spectacular global event, that would occur just after The New Age Christ [Antichrist] will make his appearance. What was this spectacular event to be? As these 'Guiding Spirits' explained, when The Christ appears, there will be many people throughout the world that could never accept his views or his teachings. These people would prove to be a great obstacle in the way the New Age Christ wanted to move the peoples of the world.

Therefore, the 'Masters of the Logos' had decided, these 'Guiding Spirits' said, to suddenly snap these people into another dimension, soon after The Christ arose. These recalcitrant people would be retrained in spirit, so that, when they reenter the 'Reincarnation Cycle', they will be fully persuaded as to the merits of the New World Order. Of course, when these people get back to earth in reincarnated bodies, the New World Order will have been in full swing for several hundred years, and everyone will know then how wonderful the system of The Christ is!

On August 18, 1991, I was sneaked into a major seminar of the Boston House of Theosophy and heard with my own ears a very logical explanation as to why so many people were going to be suddenly snatched out of this dimension [Read NEWS1052].

The fact that the Rapture card is depicted in this deck of playing cards for this game, and arranged last in order by White Magic practitioner, David Icke, speaks volumes about the fact that, in 1995, Steve Jackson knew the entire plan of the Illuminati. They know that, after Antichrist arises, tens of millions of people worldwide are going to be taken in the Rapture; the Illuminati has already spun the lie that will explain this event to their followers.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1753.cfm

So Alex Jones says the rapture doctrine is evil, but en yet he has David Icke on many times, someone who supposedly knows the rapture is true?

[Mark]

Well, i believe AJ is a Catholic, so that would explain his belief and why he is against the rapture. Hes is also against it as he would loose listeners and money if he was for it. he did go to Jesuit schools.

[Kilika]

The Rapture is fully in scripture, the only issue is about the Timing. Whether it is pre or post tribulation.  It was also the Popes and the Catholic church that started a post trib belief, before them it was always pretrib.

Hey Dok, I've seem them before, but the timelines of prophecy that I've seen are too "busy" visually, with too much stuff on it. Do you know of any timeline that is more basic? Maybe just hits the highlights of events instead of everything?

Really all we are questioning like you say is when each single event must take place before another, and it's a small portion of all the events that we are talking about, which those few events, say 2-3, that people can "Watch" for, such as say the 2 Witnesses being killed, or the construction of the temple.

Like we could have a timeline for believers that shows events up to a certain point where the church is taken away, and then another timeline that also shows for the unbelievers, what's left to happen after we are caught up in the air. Kinda of like one of those "You Are Here!" graphics. I could do the graphics but I'm not fully persuaded as to the order of things to be honest, so I wouldn't know where some things should be on the line.

[Mark]

how is this?



We could very well see the start of the construction of the Temple, or at least a big push for it, yet i believe that it will be part of the 7 year treaty. The 2 witnesses do not appear until after the treaty is signed, so we will not see them. All we are waiting for now is the rise of a powerful, charismatic leader to arise from somewhere in the Old Roman Empire, that the whole world will embrace. We will know who the antichrist is. and i think before the truth comes out about him, we will be ruptured.

[Psalm 51:17]

Hey Dok, I have another question on this - William F. Cooper said the rapture doctrine originated from freemasons.

No, I'm not trying to debate this, but I can't find any evidence over Cooper's finding with this(and I'm not much of a pre-trib believer). Where did Cooper come up with this? I really liked Cooper's research in Mystery Babylon, but still, where did he come up with this?

[Christian40]

how is this?

We could very well see the start of the construction of the Temple, or at least a big push for it, yet i believe that it will be part of the 7 year treaty. The 2 witnesses do not appear until after the treaty is signed, so we will not see them. All we are waiting for now is the rise of a powerful, charismatic leader to arise from somewhere in the Old Roman Empire, that the whole world will embrace. We will know who the antichrist is. and i think before the truth comes out about him, we will be ruptured.

that's a classic i hope i'm raptured soon but not ruptured.

[Kilika]

(Yeah, ruptured wouldn't be good.) 

That timeline is pretty good, not all cluttered. But it shows that the next event is the "rapture". If the treaty is signed after the rapture, then how does the church know who it is? I saw where you have said that this "person" must first rise to power/prominence in order to be in a position to get the treaty done. That suggests he will have been in a position for some time by treaty signing time, so it MAY mean the church will get an idea before they "leave".

Thanks. I still am having issue with the whole pre-trib rapture thing. It just isn't making sense. You've said "you can't go down when your going up" or something to that effect. Cute, but doesn't make your point and not a very good reply. Besides, if you think about it, yes, we can do both, with God. With men it is impossible, but not with God.

What I'd like to see also is these multiple "raptures" put on the time line, as in when each group leaves, caught up, raised up from dead sleep, and those who are alive at His coming. I guess you could say I'm more graphically driven. It's easier for me to visualize the order in a graphic than in just text.

[Mark]

Hey Dok, I have another question on this - William F. Cooper said the rapture doctrine originated from freemasons.

No, I'm not trying to debate this, but I can't find any evidence over Cooper's finding with this(and I'm not much of a pre-trib believer). Where did Cooper come up with this? I really liked Cooper's research in Mystery Babylon, but still, where did he come up with this?

Bill also said aliens were real and from other planets. He wasnt perfect, and he also said to never put him up on a pedestal as he will fall off every time. I dont think he studied the subject at all. I think he would change his mind if he knew how the Popes started the post trib position in 400+AD.

He starts off blaming the masons, than moves on to how the Vatican perverts stuff, that he couldnt apply that to this. But then again, i dont think Bill was a born again Christian.

[Mark]

(Yeah, ruptured wouldn't be good.) 

That timeline is pretty good, not all cluttered. But it shows that the next event is the "rapture". If the treaty is signed after the rapture, then how does the church know who it is? I saw where you have said that this "person" must first rise to power/prominence in order to be in a position to get the treaty done. That suggests he will have been in a position for some time by treaty signing time, so it MAY mean the church will get an idea before they "leave".

Thanks. I still am having issue with the whole pre-trib rapture thing. It just isn't making sense. You've said "you can't go down when your going up" or something to that effect. Cute, but doesn't make your point and not a very good reply. Besides, if you think about it, yes, we can do both, with God. With men it is impossible, but not with God.

What I'd like to see also is these multiple "raptures" put on the time line, as in when each group leaves, caught up, raised up from dead sleep, and those who are alive at His coming. I guess you could say I'm more graphically driven. It's easier for me to visualize the order in a graphic than in just text.

In Rev 19 we are told the lord and all his armies are coming down from Heaven on white horses.

Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

This is the second coming, this is when the Lord returns to Earth in all of his glory and actually physically steps on the Earth. We are told in Jude that all the Saints come with him as part of his "armies" of heaven.

Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

And their cant be any saints in heaven until the Rapture.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

As we can see here the dead are raised first and then the living and we meet the Lord in the air. How can we go up to meet him in the air, when we are coming down on a horse? You cant unless it is 2 different events.

Also the Lord has always compared the rapture and the endtimes to a wedding, and in an ancient jewish wedding, the bride and groom spent 7 days together before coming forth. The trib is 7 years, and he did say he was building us mansions and a feast. so, just a common sense reading shows a pre trib rapture.

The rapture cant be at the second coming, because we are already coming down with the Lord on horses.

[Mark]

that's a classic i hope i'm raptured soon but not ruptured.

  i try.

[Believer]

And their cant be any saints in heaven until the Rapture.

You are confusing me on this one, Dok.  Are you stating that there is no one in heaven right now?  All believers since Adam & Eve, Moses, David, the Apostles?  If they are not in heaven, then where are they?  Is this a belief in soul-sleep and that all are in the grave still? 

[Mark]

You are confusing me on this one, Dok.  Are you stating that there is no one in heaven right now?  All believers since Adam & Eve, Moses, David, the Apostles?  If they are not in heaven, then where are they?  Is this a belief in soul-sleep and that all are in the grave still? 

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[/color]

Just what do you think that means? and the dead in Christ shall rise first?  To me that says the dead in Christ will rise, IE raptured.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

that is the classical rapture verse. Used for pre, post and mid rapture views.

This is my view: when we die, the very next thing we know is either the rapture or judgment. Regardless to the intervening time. At the Rapture you will be there at the same time as Paul and Peter. Do you see what i am saying?

Here is the judgment,

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


do you see all the places that just gave up its dead for judgment? the sea? death and hell? So you have to ask how can we awake to the rapture if its 10 years away and you die today?

there is some more here: http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,2149.0.html

[Psalm 51:17]

I think we've all made it clear in this thread that the Rev 13 beast has to reveal himself FIRST(whether you believe in a pre-trib rapture or not, the Rev 13 beast will reveal himself to both believers and unbelievers).

With that being said, once the beast reveals himself, this could really be our biggest test, why? B/c alot of these so-called "prominent" evangelicals et al that are well-respected among Christian circles could very well show their true colors and point to the counterfeit-Jesus as the real Jesus saying how he's finally come back, yada, yada, yada. No, I'm not talking about people like Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, and Billy Graham who preach soft doctrine and yoke up with other religions, I'm talking about John MacArthur/Charles Stanley, etc types that have shown an outward appearance of fire and brimstone/truth/calling out wolves who's ugly true colors will finally come out, putting everyone in shock and confusion(ie-we could very well see MacArthur pop up on Wolf Blitzer and say how "Jesus has come back"). I might as well throw Graham into the "shock and confusion" category b/c he is extremely well-loved in Christian circles.

And you never know others we've been listening to that could show their true colors as well(No, I'm not talking about Scott, but you get my point here).

Pt I'm trying to make is that it's extremely important at this moment to really stick to the word of God. Sometimes it pains me when I see loved ones and other end times message forums continue to give alot of respect to people like Charles Stanley, John MacArthur, Joel Rosenberg, Hal Lindsey, just to name a few.