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December 31, 2019, 11:13:54 am ciwarrior1 says: The King James bible is NOT the pure word of God. In fact there are many errors in it. That is why the Pilgrims rejected the King James bible and relied on the Geneva Bible. In fact, the King James Bible is a paraphrase. The Bishops Bible, the Great Bible, and the Geneva Bible were used to produce the King James. Also, King James used the Massoretic text for the Greek and this text has proved to be faulty. The oldest Massoretic text dates back to about 950 AD with it coming out in book form in about 1000 AD. However, the dead sea scrolls proved that the Massoretic text wasn't even a viable text when you consider that the dead sea scrolls supported the Greek Septuagint over 90% of the time over the Massoretic text. The Massoretic text comes from the Jews who are the Synagogue of Satan. They are corrupt and vile, and they are not God Yahweh's chosen people Israel. True Israel are the white Caucasian, Celtic, Anglo Saxon, Germanic, Scandinavian, and kindred people in the world today. You would be better off getting the Ferrar-Fenton bible, the Rotherham Bible, and so forth. These bibles are more accurate than the King James Bible. However, there is an agenda to misinterpret the bible. For example, according to the bible race mixing is a sin. However, how many church's promote race mixing because they think that the King James bible says so. It doesn't, but since the read it and don't do any investigation, they just believe it. Also, many Christian pastors are crypto Jews just like Pastor David Jeremiah, Benny Hinn, and so forth.
December 31, 2019, 11:10:09 am ciwarrior1 says: The King James bible is NOT the pure word of God. In fact there are many errors in it. That is why the Pilgrims rejected the King James bible and relied on the Geneva Bible. In fact, the King James Bible is a paraphrase. The Bishops Bible, the Great Bible, and the Geneva Bible were used to produce the King James. Also, King James used the Massoretic text for the Greek and this text has proved to be faulty. The oldest Massoretic text dates back to about 950 AD with it coming out in book form in about 1000 AD. However, the dead sea scrolls proved that the Massoretic text wasn't even a viable text when you consider that the dead sea scrolls supported the Greek Septuagint over 90% of the time over the Massoretic text. The Massoretic text comes from the Jews who are the Synagogue of Satan. They are corrupt and vile, and they are not God Yahweh's chosen people Israel. True Israel are the white Caucasian, Celtic, Anglo Saxon, Germanic, Scandinavian, and kindred people in the world today. You would be better off getting the Ferrar-Fenton bible, the Rotherham Bible, and so forth. These bibles are a not more accurate than the King James Bible. However, there is an agenda to misinterpret the bible. For example, according to the bible race mixing is a sin. However, how many church's promote race mixing because they think that the King James bible says so. It doesn't, but since the read it and don't do any investigation, they just believe it. Also, many Christian pastors are crypto Jews just like Pastor David Jeremiah, Benny Hinn, and so forth.
August 08, 2018, 02:38:10 am suzytr says: Hello, any good churches in the Sacto, CA area, also looking in Reno NV, thanks in advance and God Bless you Smiley
January 29, 2018, 01:21:57 am Christian40 says: It will be interesting to see what happens this year Israel being 70 years as a modern nation may 14 2018
October 17, 2017, 01:25:20 am Christian40 says: It is good to type Mark is here again!  Smiley
October 16, 2017, 03:28:18 am Christian40 says: anyone else thinking that time is accelerating now? it seems im doing days in shorter time now is time being affected in some way?
September 24, 2017, 10:45:16 pm Psalm 51:17 says: The specific rule pertaining to the national anthem is found on pages A62-63 of the league rulebook. It states: “The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem. “During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”
September 20, 2017, 04:32:32 am Christian40 says: "The most popular Hepatitis B vaccine is nothing short of a witch’s brew including aluminum, formaldehyde, yeast, amino acids, and soy. Aluminum is a known neurotoxin that destroys cellular metabolism and function. Hundreds of studies link to the ravaging effects of aluminum. The other proteins and formaldehyde serve to activate the immune system and open up the blood-brain barrier. This is NOT a good thing."
http://www.naturalnews.com/2017-08-11-new-fda-approved-hepatitis-b-vaccine-found-to-increase-heart-attack-risk-by-700.html
September 19, 2017, 03:59:21 am Christian40 says: bbc international did a video about there street preaching they are good witnesses
September 14, 2017, 08:06:04 am Psalm 51:17 says: bro Mark Hunter on YT has some good, edifying stuff too.
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« on: November 02, 2011, 09:29:19 am »

G20 summit and Greece
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15549352

Greek referendum
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15549352

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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2011, 09:35:21 am »

Obama to pitch economic program at Group of 20 summit
By David Nakamura, Published: October 30

President Obama, who has struggled to advance his vision for economic renewal at home, will take his pitch overseas this week to an audience of world leaders who could prove equally skeptical of his message at a time of global anxiety.

“It’s very hard for us to preach the economic gospel to Europe when they watched our debt-ceiling debate here and our [credit-rating] downgrade,” said Heather Conley, director of European programs at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS).

Obama is scheduled to depart Washington late Wednesday for a two-day trip to Cannes, France, where the heads of the world’s 20 largest economies will gather for the Group of 20 summit. Organizers said the meetings will focus on how to contain Europe’s debt crisis while also trying to forge consensus on a path to stimulating worldwide economic growth, even as many countries, including the United States, wrestle with painful budget cuts.

The trip, the first for Obama outside the United States since he attended a smaller summit in France in the spring, could provide a crucial test of whether his political problems at home have compromised his influence abroad.

In the five months since the last global summit, Obama has focused on the domestic economy, fighting with Congress over ways to reduce the deficit and crisscrossing the nation to promote his $447 billion American Jobs Act, which remains stalled on Capitol Hill.

At a series of bilateral meetings in France, the president is expected to lay out his growth proposals: a mix of immediate spending to create jobs and longer-term fiscal discipline to reduce U.S. deficits.

But Obama faces a tough challenge after pointedly criticizing Europe’s handling of its debt crisis. During a town-hall-style event in Mountain View, Calif., last month, Obama said the Europeans were “scaring the world.”

European leaders struck back, telling administration officials to butt out and focus on their own fiscal problems. The Austrian and German finance ministers chided U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner in September for intervening in Europe’s affairs, with Germany’s Wolfgang Schauble dismissing as “stupid” a bailout idea advanced by Geithner. White House officials counter that the bailout plan adopted last week by European nations to help cash-strapped countries such as Italy and Spain borrow at least a trillion dollars is similar to an idea that Geithner proposed.

“The president said Europe was scaring the world; Europe thinks the U.S. is scaring the world,” said CSIS’s Conley, who was deputy assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs from 2001 to 2005. “We’re both finger-pointing at one another. I do not think the president has lost legitimacy, but it’s just very hard for us to tell other countries what to do.”

On his national jobs tour, Obama has consistently cited Europe’s economic malaise, along with the Japanese earthquake and the uprisings in the Middle East, as factors that have slowed the U.S. economic recovery. The president has called on Europe to take bold action to resolve its debt crisis.

read more here
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-to-pitch-economic-program-at-group-of-20-summit/2011/10/28/gIQAvG2kWM_story.html?wprss=rss_politics

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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2011, 09:54:01 am »

http://news.yahoo.com/greece-no-good-options-left-134600556.html

11/2/11

snippet-

Quote
Leave the Euro zone Although not a given if Greece rejects the rescue package, the country may very likely decide to exit the Euro zone and return to the drachma. Landon Thomas, Jr. at The New York Times explains the downsides to that. "Default on the nation’s $500 billion in public debt would become a certainty, depositors would take their money out of local banks and, with a sharp devaluation of as much as 50 percent, inflation would loom. A return to the international credit markets would take years," he writes. Additionally, John Cassidy notes that "the country’s banking system would probably collapse—it’s pretty much a basket case already—inflation would rise, and there would be a period of chaos."

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« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2011, 08:18:36 pm »

http://news.yahoo.com/greek-pm-defies-anger-defend-referendum-plan-000446573.html


France, Germany give Greece ultimatum on euro
11/2/11

..CANNES, France (Reuters) - The leaders of Germany and France told Greece on Wednesday it would not receive another cent in European aid until it decides whether it wants to stay in the euro zone.

They also made clear that saving the euro was ultimately more important to them than rescuing Greece.

After emergency talks with Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said: "We would rather achieve a stabilization of the euro with Greece than without Greece, but this goal of stabilizing the euro is more important."

Sarkozy hammered home the same message, telling a joint news conference with Merkel: "Our Greek friends must decide whether they want to continue the journey with us."

Papandreou outraged European partners and caused panic on financial markets by announcing on Monday that Greece would hold a referendum on a second bailout plan negotiated with euro zone leaders last week.

The Greek leader, looking chastened after a torrid dinner with European Union decision-makers that Merkel called "tough and hard" on the eve of a summit of G20 major world economies, said the plebiscite would take place around December 4.

"It's not the moment to give you the exact wording, but the essence is that this is not a question only of a program, this is a question of whether we want to remain in the eurozone," Papandreou said.

Despite opinion polls showing a majority of Greeks, weary of two years of deepening austerity, think the bailout package was a bad deal for Greece, he said he expected more support from the wider population than he could muster in parliament.

"I believe the Greek people are wise and capable of making the right decision for the benefit of our country," he said.

Sarkozy and Merkel said euro zone finance ministers would meet next Monday to speed up decisions on leveraging the euro zone's rescue fund to build a firewall to protect other weaker members of the 17-nation currency area.

The EU and IMF said Greece would not receive an urgently needed 8 billion euro ($11 billion) aid installment, due this month, until after the vote because official creditors wanted to be sure Athens would stick to its austerity program.

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso delivered this message to Papandreou before his arrival in Cannes, EU sources said.

This was after the Greek leader sent a letter to EU leaders saying he wanted to negotiate the details of the second package before the referendum, they said. The letter angered European officials, raising the level of mistrust toward Greece.

Papandreou said Greece had enough money to keep running until mid-December, when it has to redeem more than 6 billion euros in debt.

WEEKS OF UNCERTAINTY

Sarkozy's office said several euro zone leaders attending the G20, including the Spanish and Italian prime ministers, would meet on Thursday morning in Cannes to review the crisis.

In fresh signs of the market turmoil unleashed by the Greek move, the euro zone's EFSF rescue fund, which lends money to troubled member states, was forced to put on hold plans to raise 3 billion euros in the bond market.

And Italy's financial stability panel said some Italian banks were having difficulty raising money on international markets.

Asian G20 members piled pressure on Europe to tackle the crisis before it wreaks serious harm on the world economy.

China's deputy finance minister, Zhu Guangyao, said he hoped the uncertainty over the Greek referendum could be contained, adding that Beijing could not consider investing more in the euro zone's bailout fund given the lack of detail on proposals to leverage it.

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak said the G20 must act swiftly and boldly to contain the crisis, which was spilling over to the rest of the world.

If Papandreou loses the referendum, Greece faces a disorderly default which would hammer Europe's banks and threaten the much larger economies of Italy and Spain, which the bloc may not have the means to bail out.

The chairman of euro zone finance ministers, Jean-Claude Juncker, said Greece could go bankrupt if voters rejected the bailout package and Japanese Finance Minister Jun Azumi said: "Everyone is bewildered."

Juncker, Barroso, European Council President Herman Van Rompuy, IMF chief Christine Lagarde and a senior European Central Bank official attended Wednesday's talks in the southern French resort town.

ECB IN SPOTLIGHT

Doubt about Europe's ability to contain the debt crisis has once more sent markets into a spin and put Italy firmly in the firing line.

The risk premium on Italian bonds over safe-haven German Bunds hit a euro-lifetime high on Tuesday, despite European Central Bank buying of its bonds.

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi scrambled to come up with measures to placate markets, holding an emergency cabinet meeting to accelerate budget reforms amid mounting calls for his resignation.

Ireland's finance minister said the ECB would be forced to pledge "a wall of money" to buy bonds, something many of its policymakers are deeply uncomfortable about.

Until the Greek situation is clearer, last week's package of measures is likely to be in limbo, leaving the ECB as the only bulwark against market attacks.

The head of Germany's banking association, Michael Kemmer, said agreement on a 50 percent writedown of Greek debt by its private creditors would have to wait. "I can't imagine a debt exchange taking place before the referendum," he said.

The Greek press, including dailies traditionally friendly to the government, almost unanimously condemned Papandreou.

Center-left newspaper Eleftherotypia described the prime minister on its front page as "The Lord of Chaos". Ethnos, another pro-government paper, called the referendum "suicidal".

(additional reporting by Dina Kyriakidou in Athens, Gernot Heller, Lesley Wroughton, Luke Baker and Gui Qing Koh in Cannes, and James Mackenzie in Rome; writing by Paul Taylor; editing by Noah Barkin)

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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 09:06:22 am »

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,795426,00.html

11/2/11

Greek Exit From Euro Zone Just a 'Matter of Time'

Last week, it looked as though the euro had been saved. Now, in the wake of Greek Prime Minister Papandreou's announcement of a national referendum on the bailout package for his country, the common currency is even closer to the abyss. Still, say German commentators, it may have been the right move.

Despite its location on France's glamorous Cote d'Azur, Wednesday evening's meeting likely won't be a pleasant one for Giorgios Papandreou. The Greek prime minister is set to meet with German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy. None of them, one presumes, will be in the mood to enjoy their enchanting surroundings.


Leaders of the world's most powerful economies begin arriving on France's south coast on Wednesday night for the Thursday kick-off of this year's G-20 summit. Host Sarkozy had been hoping the gathering would focus on raising funds to boost the effectiveness of the euro backstop fund, the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF), but the success of the meeting is now in doubt. Papandreou's announcement on Monday evening that he was planning to hold a referendum on the EU bailout package for his country has shocked and infuriated his would-be benefactors -- and sent global markets into yet another tailspin.

The news came less than a week after an all-night bargaining session in Brussels that resulted in an agreement to slash Greek debt by 50 percent, make a further €130 billion in loans available to the country and leverage the EFSF to €1 trillion. Markets immediately calmed and the euro began climbing against the dollar.

A Danger to the Euro

The Greek prime minister's announcement, however, quickly transformed the budding optimism into deep pessimism about the future of the common currency. Should Greek voters, frustrated by round after round of deep austerity measures, reject the bailout deal, it could result in an uncontrolled national bankruptcy. Markets will likely remain nervous until the results of the ballot are in -- meanwhile the euro will move even closer to the abyss.

As if to highlight the dangers, German banks on Wednesday announced they were postponing their acceptance of the Greek debt haircut until after the referendum. Without voluntary bank approval, Greece faces a disorderly bankruptcy which could accelerate contagion throughout the euro zone.

Papandreou's decision, said European Commissioner for Energy Günther Oettinger, "puts the euro in even greater danger."

Still, not everyone was completely repulsed by Papandreou's decision. After all, the Greeks are being asked to put up with severe belt-tightening measures and providing those austerity packages with even more democratic legitimacy could take the wind out of the sails of those who would protest them. The cabinet in Athens on Wednesday unanimously approved the referendum plan. It remains unclear exactly when the referendum might take place, but some officials hinted on Thursday that it could happen before the end of the year.

German commentators on Wednesday take a look at the impending referendum.

The Financial Times Deutschland writes:

"There are many who have, since Monday, been posing the impolite question: Has the Greek prime minister gone crazy? The answer is 'no.' Papandreou merely recognized that his back is to the wall as never before -- and that he will have just as much trouble selling last week's bailout package to the Greek public as he has the radical austerity path his government has followed. Greece's debt crisis has long since become a crisis of democracy. Given this situation, Papandreou decided to take the option of last resort."

"There is much to criticize: the lack of coordination with his European partners; the apparent lack of a real plan to present to his countrymen and women. Most of all, however, his apparent indifference to the collateral damage a negative vote would have for Europe and its common currency."

"It is a risky bet. If, however, Papandreou ... is able to convince his people of the correctness of his path, then the euro bailout efforts would be on much more stable ground than has been the case thus far."

The center-left Süddeutsche Zeitung writes:

"As tough as it sounds, Greek politics is no longer just the business of the Greeks alone. ... Greece's fate also determines that of the other 16 euro-zone members. And if it's true that the future of the European Union hangs on the euro, then the entire project is in jeopardy. The summits in Brussels last week were an expression of the responsibility that Europe is willing to take on for Greece. But where then is Greece's responsibility for Europe?"

"With his unilateral decision to hold a referendum, Papandreou has tossed Europe back into the uncertainty of the days before the EU summit. Worse still, while it was at least possible to take steps forward in the last few weeks, now a complete standstill looms. What further steps could possibly be taken when no one will know for weeks, or perhaps months, how much longer Greece will remain part of the euro?"

"Giorgios Papandreou has some hard months behind him. The courage and political resolution that he has shown so far deserve the highest respect. One can even understand that the prime minister finally wants some clarity, and not least to discipline the destructive opposition in his country. Therefore it wouldn't be just bitter irony if he were to lose in the parliamentary vote of confidence or later in the referendum. It could also be very expensive for Europe."

Conservative daily Die Welt writes:

"The Greek exit from the euro zone seems like only a matter of time. This doesn't mean an end to European solidarity. Greece will certainly need further support from its partners. But an exit would only be the very late acknowledgment of economic realities. Only with a national currency do the Greeks have any real chance of strengthening their competitiveness through currency devaluation."

"But even this radical step won't quiet the situation in Europe. The fear that Italy will also begin to tumble has long worried the financial markets.... Should debt-plagued Italy need to take shelter under the rescue fund, none of the EU resolutions made thus far would be adequate. Then the conflict between Germany and France over whether we're willing to give all we have to guarantee the indebted countries will start anew. And that would mean that measures successfully rejected so far by Chancellor Angela Merkel -- such as euro bonds or a bank license for the European rescue fund -- would be back on the table."

"The Greek prime minister is comparable to a Roulette player who bets everything on a single number. And unfortunately it seems like he's not the only gambler among Europe's politicians."

The center-right Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung writes:

"Papandreou, who could fall any day, is playing a game of 'all or nothing.' ... That could lead some Germans -- who may no longer feel represented by the unanimity of German political parties on European issues -- to question why Greeks are allowed to vote on the bailout package even as Germans aren't allowed to vote on whether they and their children want to shoulder billions for this purpose. That could clarify why the outrage over this news from Athens is so great in Berlin."

The left-leaning daily Die Tageszeitung writes:

"Predictions that the Greek voters will reject the debt haircut are too premature. Most know that their country would have been bankrupt in November without bailout measures. But they also know that the 'haircut' from Oct. 26 also won't protect them from being scalped in the end. It's clear to everyone that the rigorous austerity measures that are strangling their future prospects will continue."

"To mobilize the voters, Papandreou must emphasize what the EU debt haircut agreement has brought them -- the promise that their country won't be shut out of the euro zone. A return to the drachma is a nightmare scenario for two-thirds of the population. But even an affirmation in a referendum won't end the protests against the austerity measures. The prime minister's high-wire act will continue even if he's victorious."

Financial daily Handelsblatt writes:


"It would probably be best for the euro zone if Greek Prime Minister Papandreou lost the parliamentary vote of confidence at the end of this week. Then it would be clear that Greece would denounce its partners and the euro zone could concentrate on countries, like Ireland and Portugal, which are determined to contribute for their part of the rescue fund."

"Internally Greece is so divided that one can no longer be sure if the will for self-help survives. And a drowning person who throws the life preserver back can't be saved."

"The question is, however, whether there is still enough time to wait out the referendum, and whether, after the last two years of the Greek drama, another quarter of a year of uncertainty is imaginable. ... Euro-zone politicians have hardly any other choice but to avoid another months-long cliffhanger. That could be successful if the irresponsible conservative opposition is finally put under some serious pressure. Europe could turn the tables and begin a game of blackmail by threatening to take back the rescue aid if Greece doesn't quickly clear things up. But that would be risky too -- and it also means more waiting."

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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 09:10:56 am »

http://news.yahoo.com/greek-govt-teeters-lawmakers-urge-pm-resign-125125600.html

11/3/11

Greek govt teeters, lawmakers urge PM to resign

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou came under intense pressure Thursday from his own party and opposition lawmakers alike to resign and let a coalition government approve a European bailout plan instead of holding a risky referendum on it.

Papandreou's unexpected announcement Monday that he intended to put the hard-fought bailout package to a referendum horrified Greece's international partners and creditors, triggering turmoil in financial markets as investors fretted over the prospect of a disorderly default and the country's exit from the 17-nation eurozone.

The instability in Greece has sent immediate ripples throughout Europe. Premier Silvio Berlusconi's government in Italy was teetering as well after it failed to come up with a credible plan to deal with its dangerously high debts, and Portugal demanded more flexible terms for its own bailout. European Central Bank made a surprise decision Thursday to cut interest rates by a quarter of a percentage point to 1.25 percent, responding to the financial turmoil.

The drama also dominated the G-20 meeting in the French resort of Cannes, where the leaders of the world's economic powerhouses had gathered to solve Europe's debt crisis, which threatens to push the world back into recession.

Papandreou was holding an emergency meeting Thursday with his ministers. Several of them called for a coalition national unity government that would approve the bailout package without a referendum and make sure the country receives vital funds to prevent imminent bankruptcy.

The latest turmoil began after Papandreou's own finance minister, Evangelos Venizelos, broke ranks with him Thursday and declared his opposition to a referendum.

"Greece's position within the euro area is a historic conquest of the country that cannot be put in doubt," Venizelos said, adding that it "cannot depend on a referendum."

Venizelos said the country's attention should be focused on quickly getting a crucial €8 billion ($11 billion) installment of bailout funds, without which it faces bankruptcy with weeks.

Rumors abounded about a possible Papandreou resignation — but two officials in his office denied reports that he would visit the country's president and tender his resignation in the afternoon. The president's office also said it had no knowledge of such a meeting.

State TV said lawmakers were sounding out former European Central Bank vice president Lucas Papademos as a possible unity government leader.

Several of Papandreou's close associates said they did not know what his intentions were, but he was delivering a speech to his ministers.

"He wrote the speech himself. Nobody knows what's in it," said one close associate who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the prime minister's actions.

Papandreou has also called a confidence vote his is government for Friday night — although with mounting pressure, it was unclear if the government would survive that long. Socialist lawmaker Eva Kaili said she would not back the government in the vote. Without her support, the Socialists' majority for the vote would be down to a bare minimum of 151 in the 300-member parliament.

One Socialist party official said Papandreou was determined to remain in his position at least until the vote.

"The prime minister will deliver his speech as planned tonight (during the confidence vote debate) and the confidence vote will be held normally on Friday," the official said on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to discuss the matter with the press.

He said Thursday's cabinet meeting was expected to last "for several hours."

Antonis Samaras, the leader of the conservative opposition, called for a transitional government to ratify the European debt deal and prepare for early elections.

"Under the weight of these dramatic events, we have witnessed a crisis of the ability to govern. The country must immediately return to a state of normality," Samaras said. "Under the current conditions, the new debt deal is unavoidable and must be safeguarded."

A party official said the conservatives' call was for a transitional government that would not include members of any political party members, and especially not their own. The official spoke on condition of anonymity to disclose the party's thoughts.

If the Greek government falls, it would mean that every EU nation that had already received a bailout — Greece, Portugal and Ireland — saw their governments fall during the economic turmoil.

The strong Greek rejection of Papandreou's referendum proposal helped calm frayed nerves in the markets. Athens' main stock market outperformed its peers, rising 4 percent in midday trading following three days of big falls.

In Cannes, French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel told Papandreou on Wednesday night that any referendum should be on whether Greece wants to stay in the eurozone or not, suggesting that it be held no later than Dec. 4. They said the country would not get the next €8 billion ($11 billion) batch of its existing bailout until after the vote.

Greece's new debt deal would give the country an extra €100 billion ($138 billion) in rescue loans from the rest of the eurozone and the IMF — on top of the €110 billion ($152 billion) it was granted a year ago — and would see banks forgive Athens 50 percent of the money it still owes them.

Speaking in Cannes, Papandreou said he was forced to call the referendum after it became clear there was no "broad support" from opposition parties for the bailout deal reached with the rest of the eurozone and big banks just a week ago.

Turning the referendum into a popular vote on whether Greece wants to remain in the eurozone is a risky bet that could lead to turmoil throughout the bloc.

"We cannot permanently ride a rollercoaster on Greece; we have to know where things are going, and the Greeks have to tell us where they would like things to go," Jean-Claude Juncker, who chairs eurozone finance ministers' meetings, told Germany's ZDF television Thursday.

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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2011, 09:29:25 am »

Greek government on brink of collapse

http://news.yahoo.com/france-germany-greece-ultimatum-euro-035730896.html

11/3/11

..ATHENS (Reuters) - The Greek government teetered on the brink of collapse on Thursday over plans for a referendum on a euro zone bailout with turmoil in the ruling party casting grave doubt on whether Prime Minister George Papandreou can survive a confidence vote.

Conservative opposition leader Antonis Samaras demanded that a transitional government be formed immediately to run the country until snap elections, with the current parliament ratifying the financial rescue for debt-choked Greece.

State television and the state ANA news agency said that Papandreou would meet the Greek president after an emergency cabinet session on Thursday, without giving further details.

Papandreou would have to submit his resignation or a request for a unity government to President Karolos Papoulias.

Papandreou's chief of staff denied the prime minister intended to resign although sources within his PASOK socialist party said some senior lawmakers wanted a Greek former top official at the European Central Bank to head a new government.

"I don't think the government will last until tonight," said Costas Panagopoulos, managing director of pollsters ALCO.

Papandreou's surprise decision to call a referendum on the 130 billion euro bailout to save Greece from bankruptcy and prevent a global financial crisis provoked an uproar at home and across the euro zone.

Rejection of the package, which includes yet more austerity measures for the long suffering Greek electorate, would unravel the euro zone's plan for tackling its wider debt crisis, and cut off Greece's international financial lifeline.

Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos broke ranks with Papandreou, coming out against holding the referendum after a bruising meeting with the German and French leaders, who made clear that Greece would not receive a cent more in aid until it votes to meet its commitments to the euro zone.

"REFERENDUM IS DEAD"

Chaos over Greece's role in the euro zone swept financial markets with early losses in stocks and the euro turning to gains on hopes Athens might ditch its referendum plans.

The Greek stock exchange rose 4 percent on speculation the referendum would be abandoned. World stocks as measured by MSCI were flat after earlier being sharply lower.

In Europe, the FTSEurofirst 300 lost 1 percent initially but later stood close to 1 percent higher. Earlier, Japan's Nikkei closed down 2.2 percent.

"The referendum is dead," Greek ruling party lawmaker Nikos Salayannis said on state radio.

The cabinet was due to hold an emergency session followed by a likely meeting of PASOK lawmakers amid speculation that they will call on him to resign.

However, his chief of staff Regina Vartzeli rejected the idea. "The prime minister has not resigned and does not intend to resign," she told the website of Proto Thema newspaper.

Nevertheless, plotting was in full swing. A small group of senior PASOK lawmakers are preparing a proposal for a coalition government headed by former European Central Bank Vice President Lucas Papademos, party sources told Reuters.

The group was trying to convince Papandreou to quit and open the way for Papademos, a respected figure in Greece, to head a so-called "unity" government to pull the nation from the brink.

One PASOK lawmaker said she would not support the government in a parliamentary vote of confidence on Friday, cutting its majority for that vote to just one.

PASOK has 152 deputies in the 300-member parliament. Lawmaker Eva Kaili announced she would stay in the party but refused to support the government in the confidence vote expected late on Friday, meaning Papandreou could count at most on the support of 151 deputies.

If the government fell and snap elections were called, the referendum would be canceled. The bailout would have to be approved by the next parliament that emerges from elections.

Some lawmakers are calling for a government of national unity which would have the job of getting the bailout through parliament before calling early elections. But the main opposition New Democracy has repeatedly refused cooperation.

Venizelos, one of the most powerful men in the PASOK government, originally supported Papandreou's plan. His change of mind came after he and Papandreou attended an emergency summit in Cannes on Wednesday with German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

A finance ministry source told Reuters on condition of anonymity that Venizelos believed the vote on the bailout, which was agreed by euro zone leaders only last week, should not be held while immediate funding to keep Greece afloat still had to be secured.

A VERY DIFFICULT MEETING

"Under these conditions a referendum is exactly what the country does not need. He would not have objections if all our pending issues such as the loan installment and the completion of the bailout plan had been sorted out," the source said after the meeting with Merkel and Sarkozy.

"It was a very difficult meeting," the source added.

Papandreou's bombshell announcement on Monday of the referendum and parliamentary vote of confidence pitched Greece into a political as well as an economic crisis.

About 10 PASOK lawmakers have publicly called for a coalition government to approve the EU bailout deal and proceed to new elections. About 15, including five ministers and deputy ministers, have rejected the referendum idea.

PASOK lawmaker Costas Gitonas said the referendum should not take place. "No, by no means," he told Mega TV. "It's a madhouse."

The spectre of a hard Greek default and euro exit hung over a meeting of G20 leaders beginning in Cannes on Thursday.

The French Riviera summit had been meant to focus on reforms of the global monetary system and steps to curb speculative capital flows, but the shock waves from Greece have upended the global talks.

(Additional reporting by Reuters Athens bureau; Writing by David Stamp; Editing by Mark Heinrich)

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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 10:45:33 am »


Daniel 8
 1In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

 2And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

 3Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

 4I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

 5And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

 6And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

 7And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

 8Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

 9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

 10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

 11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

 12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

 13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

 14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 15And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

 16And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

 17So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.   18Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

 19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

 20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.   22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.


 25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.  

26And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

 27And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2011, 11:06:51 am »

Trying to work out where exactly Media and Persia were-does anyone have an ancient equivalent map-I wonder if its an area around Afghanistan and Iran?Huh

L
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2011, 12:08:36 pm »

20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.   22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.



That is Alexander the Great and how his kingdom was divided between his 4 generals.
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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2011, 12:10:08 pm »

Trying to work out where exactly Media and Persia were-does anyone have an ancient equivalent map-I wonder if its an area around Afghanistan and Iran?Huh

L

Iran and west ward toward turkey and south of Turkey in Iraq
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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2011, 02:33:13 pm »

Here's the map I posted in chat...

http://www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/map_persian_empire.html


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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2011, 02:53:06 pm »

i was off by just a little.  Cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2011, 03:25:21 pm »

http://live.reuters.com/Event/Euro_zone_debt_crisis

Exclusive: Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou has struck a deal with ministers to step down and hand power to a negotiated coalition government if they help him win a confidence vote on Friday, government sources with knowledge of a cabinet meeting said.

by Stephanie Ditta 11/3/2011 8:08:27 PM 3:08 PM

So the same guy who wants to reforendum is agreeing to step down IF he gets that "confidence vote"...hhmmm...sounds like this whole charade was planned to crash the euro? If so, had a feeling, as this whole show of "Greece vs. the EU" seemed like a Hegelian Dialect going on...
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« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2011, 04:12:11 pm »

http://news.yahoo.com/analysis-leaving-euro-carries-massive-costs-181337877.html

..Analysis: Leaving the euro carries massive costs
By DON MELVIN - Associated Press | AP – 2 hrs 44 mins ago..

11/3/11

.....Related Content.
...An coin trader holds a euro coin above old Greek drachma that was replaced by the …

....Business slideshows.
.Death toll from listeria outbreak rises
8 photos - Tue, Oct 4, 2011Herman Cain denies harassment claims
76 photos - Tue, Nov 1, 2011WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange
7 photos - Wed, Nov 2, 2011...See latest photos »....BRUSSELS (AP) — European leaders have struggled mightily to keep Greece in the eurozone, despite the drag that its economic weakness places on their growth. The reason is this: If Greece abandons the euro, the chaos it would wreak on the global economy can hardly be overstated.

A Greek exit from the euro would almost certainly cause the country to default completely on its debts. A bankrupt Greece would be unable to pay pensions and salaries, and there would be a run on banks, causing them to collapse as people lined up to withdraw euros before the currency changed to drachmas.

Greeks owing money in euros but being paid in drachmas — essentially, a huge currency devaluation — would find their debts suddenly too large to pay, and would go bankrupt themselves. In a country where street violence accompanies even minor civil servant demonstrations, that's a volatile mix.

And for any help, the only place Greece would be able to turn would be the International Monetary Fund, which is already one of its bailout creditors and would insist on even more austerity measures in return for rescue loans, bringing the entire equation full circle.

Beyond Greece, the consequences would be even more dire.

Rather than 50 percent losses on Greek bonds that the banks have already said they can handle, private creditors would see those bonds simply disappear. Eurozone countries, the European Central Bank and the IMF would also give up hope of getting back the money they lent Greece.

Above all, a messy default would trigger massive insurance payouts on those bonds. Because financial groups do not usually disclose how much they hold in sovereign debt, such as Greek bonds, global markets would be seized by a panic over who would collapse.

That would essentially be a repeat of what happened in 2008 after U.S. investment bank Lehman Brothers failed — only worse.

The uncertainty would likely push other weak eurozone states like Italy and Spain from chaos into disaster. And failures that size would destroy the euro altogether.

Already, Italy's borrowing rates have jumped to record levels at the mere thought of a Greek default. If Greece does default, investors would be prone to think that other countries might, too — and they know full well that Italy's economy is too big for Europe to bail out.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy claimed it would never come to that.

"We cannot accept the explosion of the euro, which would mean the explosion of Europe," he said in Cannes at a summit of leaders from the Group of 20 most powerful economies.

But Europe's defenses are still weak. If it were aggressive in buying national bonds, the European Central Bank might be able for a time to keep a lid on those borrowing costs before they rose to the point that Italy's government would no longer be able to finance itself on capital markets.

On the other hand, if the ECB were to shy away from such an approach then the risk of contagion would grow. The ECB made clear Thursday it is uncomfortable playing such a role.

Greece appeared to step back from the brink on Thursday and canceled plans for a referendum. If its feuding politicians can agree to the plan launched in Brussels last week, they'll get the next batch of euro8 billion ($11 billion) in bailout money.

But even then, the problems are far from over.

True, the agreement would reduce Greece's debt — but not by much. In 2020, in the best scenario, Greece would have the same level of debt that it did three years ago.

When the crisis began.

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« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2011, 04:27:07 pm »

Greek PM scraps referendum on Greek debt plan


....ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Greece's prime minister abandoned his explosive plan to put a European rescue deal to popular vote and opened emergency talks Thursday with his opponents, demanding their support in parliament to pass the hard-fought agreement into law.

Prime Minister George Papandreou changed his mind after a widespread rebellion from within his own Socialist party over the referendum idea, but ignored repeated calls to resign. He faces a critical vote of confidence in his government Friday.

Papandreou sparked a global crisis Monday when he announced he would put the latest European deal to cut Greece's massive debts — an accord that took months of negotiations — to a referendum. The idea horrified other EU nations and Greece's creditors, triggering turmoil in financial markets as investors fretted over the prospect of Greece being forced into a disorderly default.

Papandreou was summoned to an emergency European meeting in Cannes, France, on Wednesday night, where the visibly irate French and German leaders said any referendum would in fact be a question of whether Greece retains its cherished membership of the euro common currency. They also said Greece would not receive the next, vital €8 billion ($11 billion) installment of its existing bailout until after a vote was held.

Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos accompanied him — and led a revolt against the referendum idea on his return to Athens before dawn Thursday.

With Greece's euro membership and bailout loan lifeline suddenly in danger, pressure mounted for Papandreou to resign, with the conservative opposition and even his own deputies calling for the creation of a transition government to pass the new European debt deal.

Venizelos said as the opposition now indicated it would support the European debt deal, a referendum was no longer necessary.

"The government went to Cannes with the position that if the necessary consensus is formed there will be no need to hold a referendum," he said.

"We must highlight the fact that there is a window of a consensus that even late, even under conditions, can change the climate under which the Oct. 26 decisions will be implemented and voted," Venizelos said. "This development, irrespective of motives is particularly beneficial for the country."



He said the new debt deal would be brought to parliament under a procedure that would require a super-majority of 180 lawmakers to vote in favor. With the governing Socialists holding 152 seats, that means the debt deal will only pass if the opposition votes in favor.

..

http://news.yahoo.com/greek-pm-scraps-referendum-greek-debt-plan-144719929.html
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« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2011, 04:38:28 pm »

Quote
He said the new debt deal would be brought to parliament under a procedure that would require a super-majority of 180 lawmakers to vote in favor. With the governing Socialists holding 152 seats, that means the debt deal will only pass if the opposition votes in favor.

So now that the reforendum is off the table, everything scott free, right? But now the new debt euro deal will pass ONLY if the opposition votes in favor? Huh

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« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2011, 04:46:47 pm »

Despite the reforendum being scrapped...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2011/11/03/after-greece-watch-out-for-italy-as-berlusconi-will-be-forced-to-resign/?feed=rss_europe

After Greece, Watch Out For Italy As Berlusconi Could Be Forced To Resign

Greece appeared to take a step back from the brink of a debt default Thursday as Prime Minister George Papandreou, under fire from the opposition and members of his own party, backed away from a surprise call for a referendum on whether to accept the terms of the latest bailout package for the heavily indebted country. With Papandreou’s fate hanging on a confidence vote scheduled for Friday that he is in danger of losing, market focus has increasingly turned to Italy, which poses true systemic risk to the European Union.  A disorderly default in Greece would raise the ante for Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who would probably be forced to resign, analysts at Barclays said.

Last week’s three point plan unveiled by Euro area leaders, led by Merkel and Sarkozy, which delineated the framework for an expanded EFSF, bank recapitalization, and a second Greek bailout, sparked a substantial relief rally.  So substantial that it was clearly an overreaction.

Markets quickly tumbled as Greece’s Papandreou called for a confidence vote and a referendum, putting his political career, and the fate of the EU, to a certain extent, on the line. Yields on Italian 10-year bonds surged well past the key 6% mark, even reaching a 450 basis point spread over German bunds.

The possibility of a disorderly default in Greece is now higher than ever.  Without the next €8 billion tranche of bailout money, Barclays estimates Greece has money up until some point in December.  The next tranche would allow the troubled country to fund itself until February or March.  Barclays now believes that Papandreou will lose the confidence vote, if indeed it goes through, sending markets further down and putting pressure on the whole system.

“With Italian government bond yields signaling increasing stress in this key segment of the EGB market, the negative feedback loop into euro area banks is likely to persist, as it amplifies the risk of a credit crunch emerging at least in parts of the eurozone,” explained the analysts.

A disorderly default in Greece would cause German bunds to rally and would push Italian yields even higher.  Italy’s problem is not one of solvency, but of an excessive debt-to-GDP ratio and deep-rooted structural problems, according to Barclays.  Rising borrowing costs, though, will raise the heat substantially in Italy, where Prime Minister Berlusconi is already under fire.

The final outcome in Italy appears to be Berlusconi’s resignation, according to Barclays.  Il Cavaliere, as Berlusconi is known, must pass key pro-growth structural reforms, which he promised to Merkel, Sarkozy, and the ECB, to continue to receive support.  The ECB, now under Mario Draghi’s control, has been instrumental in buying Italian debt and maintaining some sort of market confidence.

“The outcome of an emergency cabinet meeting held [Wednesday] night suggests that the Italian government will be unable to approve unpopular measures needed to restore market confidence in the very near term. In fact, among the hypotheses circulated yesterday (i.e., a one-off charge on domestic deposits, the re-introduction of a property tax, further increases in the VAT rate, pension and labour market reforms), none seems likely to be tabled today at the G20 meeting in Cannes.”

Il Cavaliere’s failure to pass key reforms would push opposition members, with the Democratic Party’s (PD) Pierluigi Bersani at the helm, to call for Berlusconi’s resignation, which reportedly President Giorgio Napolitano will approve.  Napolitano will then call for the formation of a “technocratic government”, which, historically, “has been able to pass pro-growth structural reforms, including politically difficult labor reform.”  This, in turn, would provide incentives for the ECB to support Italian debt further and could possibly help Italy decouple from other peripherals.

As reported earlier today, contagion risks are huge.  BNP Paribas holds €22 billion in peripheral debt, €12 billion of that in Italian bonds.  MF Global recently went bust on its exposure to Europe and large Wall Street banks like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citi, and JPMorgan Chase, have seen their stock prices tank on every turn of the market.

The stakes are higher than ever.  The global market is now hostage to Greece’s and Italy’s political systems.  The odds of success appear to be decreasing by the hour.

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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2011, 07:08:27 pm »

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1111104/jsp/foreign/story_14706894.jsp

Greece drops referendum plan

Athens, Nov. 3: After a tumultuous day of political gamesmanship, Prime Minister George Papandreou called off his plan to hold a referendum on Greece’s new loan deal with the EU, withdrew his previous offers to resign and opened talks on a unity government with his conservative opponents.

In an address to his party’s central committee this evening, he said there was no need for a referendum now that the Opposition New Democracy party had said it would back the debt deal. He invited that party to become “co-negotiators” on the new deal.

“The question was never about the referendum but about whether or not we are prepared to approve the decisions on October 26,” he said, referring to the EU debt deal. “What is at stake is our position in the EU.”

Shortly afterwards, the finance minister, Evangelos Venizelos, confirmed the cancellation of the referendum and added that the government will now seek approval of the loan deal from a full majority of 180 in Parliament, rather than the simple majority of 151 that has supported previous measures.

The developments re-established a tentative stability in Greece that still could be dashed in a stroke. Papandreou must sweat out a vote of confidence tomorrow whose outcome is far from assured. If he survives that, he and the Opposition leader, Antonis Samaras, will have to negotiate their conflicting visions for the future. Samaras would like to see a transitional government of technocrats leading to early elections, perhaps in two months, while the Prime Minister prefers a coalition government that would rule for at least six months.

The decision to drop the referendum came after Samaras switched course and decided to back the loan deal which would involve a 50 per cent write-down of Greece’s debt. Earlier, Samaras had been content to sit on the sidelines and scoring political points by opposing the deal and previous bailouts.

Speculation had been rife all day today that Papandreou would abandon the referendum plan if the Opposition would back the European deal. Before going into a brief emergency cabinet meeting, Papandreou suggested that he was prepared to walk away from the referendum proposal, saying that it “would not have been necessary if there had been consensus with the Opposition”.

At first, Papandreou was said to have offered to resign before a confidence vote scheduled for tomorrow. By late afternoon, however, Greek news media reported during the cabinet meeting that he not only was refusing to resign but was in fact calling off the referendum plan. He only did so later in the day.

Papandreou had said the referendum was aimed at broadening consensus, which meant forcing the Opposition to back the loan deal. Analysts said that he may have been happy to drop the idea once that goal was accomplished today. After the cabinet meeting ended, Papandreou spoke with Samaras by phone.

Even if he survives the coming hours or days in office, the Prime Minister is widely seen as having expended nearly all his political capital. Ever since Greece asked for a bailout from the EU in April 2010, he has struggled to satisfy seemingly irreconcilable constituencies: the Greek electorate and Greece’s foreign lenders, who have insisted on tough austerity measures in exchange for aid, pushing Greek democracy to the breaking point.

Papandreou had stood by his referendum plan when he met European leaders in Cannes, France, yesterday, where they were gathering for the Group of 20 summit.

The referendum announcement on Monday angered European leaders and threw the entire debt deal into chaos, causing turbulence in world markets.

Divisions within Papandreou’s government flared into the open today when the finance minister, Evangelos Venizelos, and his deputy broke ranks with the Prime Minister to oppose a referendum, saying it could jeopardise Greek membership in the single currency euro zone.

Faced with the growing insurrection among his own ministers, who only a day earlier appeared to have rallied around the referendum plan, Papandreou called the urgent cabinet meeting this afternoon.

Euro ‘explosion’

French President Nicolas Sarkozy said European leaders cannot accept the “explosion” of the euro and cautiously welcomed Greece’s decision to scrap a referendum on a hard-fought European bailout plan.

Sarkozy said European leaders will meet again to try to work out ways to stem Europe’s debt crisis. Speaking in Cannes today, Sarkozy said: “We cannot accept the explosion of the euro, which would mean the explosion of Europe.”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does this whole scenerio sound familiar? Problem-Reaction-Solution, alot like what the Freemasons do?
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« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2011, 07:49:42 pm »

http://news.yahoo.com/confidence-vote-debate-opens-greek-parliament-164348382.html

11/4/11

Greek PM wins confidence vote, vows unity government

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou won a nail-biting confidence vote in parliament early Saturday after vowing to start talks to form a government of national unity in the crisis-hit country.

Papandreou carried the vote, watched nervously by financial markets and fellow European leaders, despite a razor-thin majority for his socialist party and a rebellion within the ranks.

A total of 153 deputies among 298 present approved the motion, the parliament speaker said to sustained applause within the chamber.

The result hung in the balance amid unbearable tension as each MP voted in favour or against the motion, with the "yes" and "no" camp neck-and-neck right to the end.

The vote makes it more likely Greece will be able to implement the terms of a massive EU bailout designed to keep the near-bankrupt country afloat and is likely to be cheered across Europe.

Calling for a "broad" coalition to put into action the EU package, the hard-pressed premier told parliament he was open to a government of national unity.

Shortly before lawmakers began voting, Papandreou had announced he would see the Greek president later on Saturday to hand in his mandate and start talks on the formation of such a government.

"Honest and broad backing is called for," he told deputies ahead of the vote. "The changes that need to take place are historic and require citizens' participation."

He dismissed opposition calls for an early election, saying such a vote would be a "catastrophe".

And it was not clear whether he would be the person to lead the coalition government when it is formed.

But, in a clear hint that he might step aside, he said he would not put personal considerations before saving the country.

"I am not interested in a chair, the last thing I am interested in is whether I am re-elected.

"If by my deeds I can give a message that we are not enemies ... then I will have made the greatest contribution to the country in my 30-year career," he said.

"The tradition of my family would not permit me to do anything different," said Papandreou, whose father and grandfather were also leaders of Greece.

As the debate took place, several thousand communists staged noisy protest in front of the flood-lit building.

Chanting, banging drums and waving red and Greek flags, the protestors overflowed the central Syntagma Square under the watchful eye of several hundred police officers carrying riot gear.

In a poignant expression of the hardships ordinary Greeks are suffering, one little girl, high on her father's shoulders, carried a sign which read: "My grandma needs care, my mother wants a job and I want schoolbooks."

The vote capped a tumultuous week for Greece that began with Papandreou's disastrous call to hold a referendum on the 100-billion-euro ($138-billion) EU bailout package that sparked revolt in his own party and roiled markets.

Analysts had warned that renewed political uncertainty could halt the disbursement of a new eight-billion-euro loan package that Greece needs by December 15 to pay the bills.

Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos said that early elections could be held once negotiations on the EU bailout package are complete.

Papandreou's call for a referendum earned him a humiliating dressing-down this week from European leaders, who warned it could derail the rescue package and even raised questions about Greece's continued EU membership.

On the street, people appeared to be in favour of a government of national unity. One pensioner who gave his name as Takis told AFP: "As matters stand, nothing can save us.

"There must be a government of national salvation with all the parties until we have elections. They way things are now George (Papandreou) cannot continue."

On Syntagma Square, where violent demonstrations have taken place during the crisis, Sofia Papadimitriou, a 25-year-old student said: "Papandreou must go."

"He's had it. He can't get anything done. He hasn't got any energy left."

The Ta Nea daily said the country was "on the edge of a cliff" and Eleftheros Typos rounded on Papandreou, saying he was "destroying Greece."

For the first time, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and others raised the spectre of Greece leaving the euro, hiking the pressure on the politicians in Athens to strike a deal if they wanted to remain in the bloc.

Bemoaning the fact that "Greece is once again in the world media spotlight for all the wrong reasons," the Athens News said the country was in a state of "confusion and inconsistency."

Vangelis Ipadimou, a worker studying the headlines at one of the several newspaper kiosks in central Athens, said he wanted power removed from politicians.

"We should give the responsibility to technocrats, not to politicians any more," he said.

..
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« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2011, 08:03:48 pm »

11/4/11

Snippet from this article on the ABC news web site-

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/dissent-grows-ahead-greek-confidence-vote-14882308?page=2

Quote
The new European deal, agreed on Oct. 27 after marathon negotiations, would give Greece a euro130 billion ($179 billion) rescue package. It would also see banks write off 50 percent of the money Greece owes them, about euro100 billion ($138 billion). The goal is to reduce Greece's debts to the point where the country is able to handle its finances without relying on constant bailouts.

To receive funds from the initial bailout, Greece was forced to embark on a punishing program of tax hikes and cuts in pensions and salaries that sent Papandreou's popularity plummeting and his majority in parliament whittled down from a comfortable 10 seats to just two.


Yes, the purpose of this "bailout" is to DESTROY Greece's economy! Be ye not deceived...
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« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2011, 07:50:52 am »

Moody’s cuts Cyprus’ credit grade by 2 notches to Baa3 over banks’ exposure to Greece
4 November 2011, Niscosia, Cyprus  (Associated Press -The Washington Post)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/markets/moodys-cuts-cyprus-credit-grade-by-2-notches-to-baa3-over-banks-exposure-to-greece/2011/11/04/gIQAfHLBnM_story.html

Excerpt:

International ratings agency Moody’s on Friday cut Cyprus’ credit grade by two notches to Baa3, or just above junk status, and warned of further downgrades because its banks will likely need state support next year over their heavy exposure to Greek debt.

Moody’s said in a statement that Cypriot banks’ losses have more than doubled under last month’s new European debt deal for Greece that would see banks write off 50% of the money the country owes them.

Those higher losses make it more likely that the government would need to step in and provide a financial backstop of around €1 billion ($1.38 billion), raising, in turn, the government debt-to-gross domestic product ratio by 5-10 percentage points.

Cyprus’ top three banks hold an estimated €5 billion ($6.89 billion) in Greek government bonds. Cypriot Finance Minister Kikis Kazamias said the island’s debt currently stands at around 65.5% of GDP.

Moody’s also cited the Cypriot government’s inability to borrow from international markets which raises the possibility that authorities will need to seek emergency funding from official sources like Europe’s bailout fund, or European Financial Stability Facility.

Rising interest rates on Cypriot bonds have made it increasingly difficult for the government to borrow from the secondary markets in order to finance the island’s debt and cover costs.
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« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2011, 12:49:08 pm »

You Can’t Spell Tooth Faeries Without EFSF5 November 2011, by Peter Tchir of TF Market (Zero Hedge)
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/you-can%E2%80%99t-spell-tooth-faeries-without-efsf

Excerpt:

Well, actually you can, but I guess that is my point. We have been reacting so much to headlines there has been no focus on details. 

Even the political farce in Greece drew attention away from the real problems.

----

Lost in the shuffle this week is the fact that there still is no IIF plan. 

No definition of what an NPV haircut is, or how much EFSF support is going to the banks as part of this “haircut” and which prong of EFSF money this will come from. 

Merkozy can complain about Papandreou backing out of “the plan” but honestly, don’t you think he should have been given a plan? 

A vague promise by bankers of a 50% NPV haircut so that Greece can achieve 120% debt to GDP in 9 years, doesn’t sound that great. 

I don’t believe Greece was on board with any plan, and probably haven’t even seen what it will look like. 

Once the IIF comes up with their plan, I suspect some people will be disappointed – Greeks and the taxpayers of countries that see more money going to banks, rank right up there as candidates to be disappointed.


What I have finally seen, is some actual discussion of what default would mean. For all the talk about “Greek Default” very little serious work has been done on it. 

The instant reaction is “horrible for Greece”, “stone ages”, “togas and sandals”, “hyperinflation”, etc., yet as some analysis starts to come out,

more and more is showing that Greece could have a much better debt burden while retaining core state assets if they head down the path of default or repudiation

After the initial nasty comments that came out of European leaders forced Greece back on the “path”, more reasoned voices are coming out – slowly, but at least starting to come out. 

If Greece defaults, would they even have to give up the Euro? 

Important leaders have said they would, yet there is no mechanism to force them, and would be a great way for Greece to wipe out its debt and not experience hyperinflation. 

If Greece left the Euro, could it remain in the EU? 

There are 17 countries that use the Euro, but 27 in the EU, so it would seem possible that they could leave the Euro but remain in the EU. That too is only starting to be discussed. 

The initial headlines were all about – don’t pay and get kicked out and starve, but the reality is likely much different and probably much better for Greece.


The EU leaders may be able to stop this line of thinking, but as people get over the initial “shock and awe” of the word “default” they are realizing it is not the end of the world for Greece and may in fact be the fresh beginning they need – Argentina and Russia might be better examples than Zimbabwe.

I am not sure what exactly has happened to the Greek government. So far, it is being interpreted as positive because they will go along with the plan. 

I guess that is the case, but I find it hard to believe that the people will be pleased that the referendum was taken away.

I think as they also start seeing proper and reasoned arguments against accepting the terms being forced on them, the level of dissent will grow. 

There were no tanks rolling into town squares to send the people back to their homes in fear, but enough has potentially been done to turn the tide of the people against the politicians. 

I don’t think we have seen the end of dissent in Greece, and if anything, I would expect it to become more vocal, and supported by more facts about what Greece could do, rather than just fear mongering of default and fewer summit invitations.
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« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2011, 11:03:49 pm »

Greek premier struggles to end political deadlock

http://news.yahoo.com/greek-premier-struggles-end-political-deadlock-163557650.html

11/5/11

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Greece's prime minister struggled Saturday to form a temporary coalition government in the near-bankrupt country, extending a political deadlock threatening billions in international rescue funds.

In an impassioned plea to parliament late Friday, George Papandreou agreed to step aside as premier if necessary to help hammer out a coalition, offering to include the conservative opposition party — a possibility swiftly rejected by its leader.

Papandreou said a new coalition government would need four months to secure the new €130 billion ($179 billion) rescue agreement and demonstrate the country's commitment to remaining in the eurozone.

"Cooperation is necessary to guarantee — for Greece and for our partners — that we can honor our commitments," Papandreou said at a meeting Saturday with President Karolos Papoulias, hours after his Socialist government narrowly survived a confidence vote.

"I am concerned that a lack of cooperation could trouble how our partners see our will and desire to remain in the central core of the European Union and the euro."

But Papandreou's plea was snubbed by conservative opposition leader Antonis Samaras.

"We have not asked for any place in his government. All we want is for Mr. Papandreou to resign, because he has become dangerous for the country," Samaras said in a televised address. "We insist on immediate elections."

Samaras was due to meet the president at 1:00 p.m. (1100GMT) Sunday.

Frustrated with Greece's protracted political disagreements, the country's creditors have threatened to withhold the next critical €8 billion ($11 billion) loan installment until the new debt deal is formally approved in Greece.

Greece is surviving on a €110 billion ($150 billion) rescue-loan program from eurozone partners and the International Monetary Fund. It is currently finalizing a second major deal: to receive an additional €130 billion ($179 billion) in rescue loans and bank support, with banks agreeing to cancel 50 percent of their Greek debt.

Midway through his four-year term, Papandreou was forced by his austerity-weary Socialist party into seeking cross-party support after he abandoned a disastrous proposal to hold a referendum on a new European debt deal — which prompted havoc on world markets and anger from creditors.

Papandreou's popularity has been battered by two years of punishing austerity, causing crippling strikes, violent protests and sharp drop in living standards for ordinary Greeks who face repeated rounds of tax hikes and cuts in pension and salaries.

Late Friday, Papandreou won a confidence vote in the Socialist-led parliament on a pledge that he was willing to quit and form a caretaker coalition.

But he insisted an immediate election would paralyze government and endanger the new rescue deal.

The conservative snub left Papandreou with limited options: negotiating with conservative splinter groups and independents to attract consensus, and possibly invite respected non-politicians to join the effort.

"(Papandreou) will not resign immediately and he cannot resign before there is a new government. What remains to be seen is how flexible he will be in seeking a different governmental makeup," Ilias Nicolacopoulos, a prominent political analyst told AP television.

"There will be a tough game of poker."

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« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2011, 09:15:45 am »

Opposition demands PM quit
November   6,  2011  Sunday
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15609456

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« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2011, 09:18:02 am »

Insight - Euro has new politburo but no solution yet
6 November 2011, by Paul Taylor - Paris (Reuters)
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/11/06/uk-eurozone-leadership-idUKTRE7A513Z20111106

Excerpt:

Europe has a new informal leadership directorate intent on finding a solution to the euro zone's debt crisis, but it has yet to prove its ability to come up with a lasting formula.

Forged in the fire of a bond market inferno, the shadowy so-called Frankfurt Group has grabbed the helm of the 17-nation currency area in a few short weeks.

The inner circle comprises the leaders of Germany and France, the presidents of the executive European Commission and of the European Council of EU leaders, the heads of the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund, the chairman of euro zone finance ministers, and the European Commissioner for economic and financial affairs.

Europe's new politburo met four times on the sidelines of last week's Group of 20 summit in Cannes, issuing an ultimatum to Greece that it would not get a cent more aid until it met its European commitments, and arm-twisting Italy to carry out long delayed economic reforms and let the IMF monitor them.

In a tell-tale recognition of the new ad hoc power centre, members wore lapel badges marked "Groupe de Francfort."
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« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2011, 09:20:47 am »

Greek PM 'Set To Resign' Amid Euro Crisis
6 November 2011, (Sky News)
http://news.sky.com/home/business/article/16104348

Greece's prime minister George Papandreou will resign today, Pasok party sources have told Sky News.

A possible replacement for Mr Papandreou is currently being discussed, the sources have also indicated.

The development comes after the country's opposition leader insisted the PM must go to save the economy.

Antonis Samaras said he was willing to help in the formation of a coalition government - but not until Mr Papandreou had stepped down.

Despite winning a confidence vote in parliament, Mr Papandreou has struggled to form a temporary coalition government to back the controversial EU bailout package.

The prime minister had gone into talks with president Karolos Papoulias on how to construct an administration to negotiate the deal to write down Greek debt and release billions in emergency aid.

But sources within Pasok - the socialist party that Mr Papandreou heads - have told Sky News there are only two possible scenarios.

The first involves Mr Papandreou stepping down and being replaced by a compromise candidate who is acceptable to both the left and right of the political spectrum.

The second scenario would see Mr Papandreou stepping down and being replaced by someone within Pasok itself - potentially Evangelos Venizelos, the current finance minister, who has been part of the bailout negotiations.

An emergency cabinet meeting will be held this afternoon, when these issues will be discussed.

The country is under pressure from the eurozone's power brokers to implement the bailout package agreed in Brussels on October 27.

If the bailout stalls in the Greek parliament, that would hamper the release of money Greece needs to pay salaries, pensions and international creditors.

After the prime minister won a confidence vote in the early hours of Saturday morning, European finance ministers, who meet next week, will want to see progress in Athens.

However the opposition New Democracy party is angry Mr Papandreou decided to tough out his tenure, rather than call snap elections.

Its leader, Mr Samaras, said the prime minister was "dangerous" for Greece.

We realise the need for an interim government in order to conclude the loan agreement... That would need a person that is mutually accepted and not necessarily a politician... to run an interim government and then go to elections.

Greek shadow finance minister Notis Mitatarakis

 
But he and other opposition leaders have already said they would work to implement the bailout deal, so the pressure to join a consensus government is immense.

Greece's shadow finance minister Notis Mitatarakis told Sky News he believes the leader of the country's new interim government did not have to be a politician.

"We need elections because we need a stable government to be able to negotiate the new loan agreement," he said.

"However, we realise the need for an interim government in order to conclude the loan agreement [and] the restructuring of the Greek debt.

"That would need a person that is mutually accepted, not necessarily a politician - rather, not a politician - to run an interim government and then go to elections."

The wrangling comes after almost a week of market anxiety over whether the near-bankrupt country will actually embrace the bailout deal.

Mr Papandreou has already abandoned a proposal to hold a referendum on the package, which would result in years of financial austerity for Greece.

On Friday world leaders drew a blank in their efforts to resolve the wider eurozone crisis, as a G20 summit ended with no agreement on crucial measures to shore up ailing economies.

The Group of 20 leading economies failed to thrash out a detailed plan to stabilise the single currency or to boost the International Monetary Fund's ability to respond to emergencies.

Prime Minister David Cameron warned squabbling eurozone leaders "the world can't wait" for them to finalise plans to bailout Greece, recapitalise banks and erect a one trillion euro (£870bn) "firewall" to protect the single currency.

He acknowledged that the ongoing uncertainty in the eurozone was having a "chilling" effect on the British economy.
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« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2011, 04:13:21 pm »

http://news.sky.com/home/business/article/16104348

11/6/11

Greek Coalition Government Deal Agreed

A deal on a new coalition government in Greece has been reached - but current prime minister George Papandreou will not be at the helm.
The draft agreement between Mr Papandreou and the country's opposition leader, Antonis Samaras, came after a day of speculation that the PM would resign
.

The two sides said they would take the country to an election after the implementation of the bailout deal and would meet on Monday to work out the details of the new caretaker government.

Mr Samaras had earlier insisted the PM must go to save the economy and said he was willing to help in the formation of a coalition government - but not until Mr Papandreou had stepped down.

Despite winning a confidence vote in parliament, Mr Papandreou has struggled to form a temporary coalition government to back the controversial EU bailout package.

The prime minister had gone into talks with president Karolos Papoulias on how to construct an administration to negotiate the deal to write down Greek debt and release billions in emergency aid.

The country is under pressure from the eurozone's power brokers to implement the bailout package agreed in Brussels on October 27.

If the bailout stalls in the Greek parliament, that would hamper the release of money Greece needs to pay salaries, pensions and international creditors.

After the prime minister won a confidence vote in the early hours of Saturday morning, European finance ministers, who meet next week, will want to see progress in Athens.

However the opposition New Democracy party is angry Mr Papandreou decided to tough out his tenure, rather than call snap elections
.

Greece's shadow finance minister Notis Mitatarakis told Sky News he believes the leader of the country's new interim government did not have to be a politician.

"We need elections because we need a stable government to be able to negotiate the new loan agreement," he said.

"However, we realise the need for an interim government in order to conclude the loan agreement [and] the restructuring of the Greek debt.

"That would need a person that is mutually accepted, not necessarily a politician - rather, not a politician - to run an interim government and then go to elections."

The wrangling comes after almost a week of market anxiety over whether the near-bankrupt country will actually embrace the bailout deal.

Mr Papandreou has already abandoned a proposal to hold a referendum on the package, which would result in years of financial austerity for Greece.

On Friday world leaders drew a blank in their efforts to resolve the wider eurozone crisis, as a G20 summit ended with no agreement on crucial measures to shore up ailing economies.

The Group of 20 leading economies failed to thrash out a detailed plan to stabilise the single currency or to boost the International Monetary Fund's ability to respond to emergencies.

Prime Minister David Cameron warned squabbling eurozone leaders "the world can't wait" for them to finalise plans to bailout Greece, recapitalise banks and erect a one trillion euro (£870bn) "firewall" to protect the single currency.

He acknowledged that the ongoing uncertainty in the eurozone was having a "chilling" effect on the British economy.
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« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2011, 06:56:46 pm »

TUI prepares Greek hoteliers for euro zone exit6 November 2011, Frankfurt (Reuters)
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/11/06/uk-eurozone-greece-tui-idUKTRE7A52KS20111106

German tour operator TUI AG (TUIGn.DE) has asked Greek hoteliers to sign new contracts spelling out how it will pay its bills in the event Greece leaves the euro zone and starts using a new currency, a spokesman for the company said.

"As a responsible company, we should protect ourselves for a potential exit of Greece from the euro zone," spokesman Robin Zimmermann said on Sunday, adding TUI's Nordic unit had sent a letter to the hoteliers.

He was confirming a report in German newspaper Bild, which quoted the letter as saying: "If the euro should no longer be the currency (...),

TUI is entitled to pay the sum of money in the new currency. The exchange rate shall be made at the exchange rate set by the government."

Tourism is key for Greece’s €230 billion (£197.9 billion) economy and accounts for about 1/5 of GDP.

More than 2 million Germans travelled to Greece last year, making them the biggest group of visitors there
..

The President of the Greek Tourist Board, Andreas Andreadis, told Bild that several Greek hoteliers had received the letter from TUI, the owner of London-listed TUI Travel (TT.L), and were asked to sign it.

"No hotelier will do that and we turned to the Greek Ministry of Tourism. TUI can not put pressure on hoteliers to sign such a thing," he was quoted as saying.
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« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2011, 07:00:10 pm »

Morgan Stanley Says Europe’s Pandora’s Box Has Been Opened6 November 2011, by Tyler Durden (Zero Hedge)
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/morgan-stanley-says-europes-pandoras-box-has-been-opened

Excerpt:

And what is even more disturbing is that Germany itself is now demanding a referendum. According to Welt, 71% of Germans want a referendum, and want to to vote directly on important decisions for Europe and the Euro.

Only 27% oppose the motion.

And the same poll has found that 63% of Germans think Greece should be kicked out of the Euro, with just 32% believing the country can still be saved.
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