The Pre-tribulation Rapture vs. The Post-tribulation Rapture

[Psalm 51:17]

I agree with Scott, I don't disfellowship with pre-tribbers myself just b/c I'm post-trib. This is pretty much the ONLY issue where I don't disfellowship myself with others.

Greg Dixon(as you know, the pastor in Indiana who came under severe persecution by the US Government after 9/11 after he wanted to get out of 501c3, and is now warning other pastors to do the same) is pre-trib, and happens to be close friends with Pastor Sam Adams(who is post-trib, as you know). I heard a radio program one time with both of them interviewed.

And before Mike Hoggard went off the deep end and preached a pathetic unlimited Romans 13 submission to the government, his ministries was one that Scott highly endorsed.(which was how I pretty much became a regular viewer of Hoggard's weekly teachings) And Denlinger has Scott's contendingfortruth.com web site linked on his web site. DA Waite and Chick Tracts are also pre-trib(whom Scott endorses as well).

And for that matter too, I have a bunch of tracts I use from Fellowship Tract League, and they are pre-trib.

[Christian40]

That is good that you dont disfellowship with us because your a post-trib believer!

I believe that Pastor Mike Hoggard is a Pre-Trib Believer too. I still look for a good sermon from him, you know he is very patriotic, i dont know exactly how he went of the deep end, he is not perfect, nor are the other preachers.

Plus where i did some learning at www.amazingbible.org they too give a Pre-Trib Position. Would you say that most Christians are Pre-Trib Rapture Believers?

[Psalm 51:17]

That is good that you dont disfellowship with us because your a post-trib believer!

I believe that Pastor Mike Hoggard is a Pre-Trib Believer too. I still look for a good sermon from him, you know he is very patriotic, i dont know exactly how he went of the deep end, he is not perfect, nor are the other preachers.

Plus where i did some learning at www.amazingbible.org they too give a Pre-Trib Position. Would you say that most Christians are Pre-Trib Rapture Believers?

Like I mentioned in other threads - you don't even hear about Jesus Christ's 2nd Coming in today's modern-day church. Whether it's the pre or post trib position, again, you don't hear a nil about our blessed hope being Jesus Christ at his 2nd Coming, where we will have many mansions in heaven. Instead, they largely put their ambitions in building their buildings, giving their tithe so that they can achieve financial prosperity, etc. And come to think of it too, today's "seminaries" will throw ALL escatology views in your face to ultimately confuse you.

From my experiences, I would say it's about 50/50.

[Psalm 51:17]

Also, what concerns me much more is seeing fellow Christians celebrating the pagan xmas holiday.

No, I'm not saying I would completely disfellowship with, let's say, Bryan Denlinger b/c he defended this holiday(I didn't do so with Mike Hoggard b/c he celebrates this and Ishtar, although I did with his wrong Romans 13 view, but that's a completely different story).

However, celebrating xmas is spiritual adultery and drunkenness. The big danger in celebrating this holiday is that while it may make you *feel great* for the last month of the year, you end up going into a big depression the remainder of the winter months(at least through my experiences). It's as if all those spiritual demons you invited for the last month of the year ends up making you pay the piper when all is said and done.

But yeah, I consider the pre vs post trib debate a non-issue, b/c there are more serious issues like these pagan holidays we need to stray away from and warn others about. And that includes the New Year's celebration too.

[Psalm 51:17]

By any chance, has anyone seen "Six - the Mark Unleashed"? The cast of characters includes alot of the same actors we've seen in these other end times Christian movies(that Mark and others have posted here), and Stephen Baldwin(of the Baldwin brothers fame).

Can't recommend it, as there were biblical errors in it(ie-the bible makes it simple that either you take the mark and go to the lake of fire for eternity, or not take it and get beheaded, but nonetheless this movie put alot of this escapism/brainless nonsense that you would see in a typical Chuck Norris movie. And no, noone's going to be *forced* to take the mark either which this movie tried to imply).

Anyhow, like with every other end times Christian movie(whether good or error-filled), a few things I took notice, one of them being some of the Christians were able to hide out somewhere in the mountains(hence being protected during the trib, while others were sent to jail waiting to be beheaded).

Which gets me thinking - ASSUMING the post-trib position is correct, could it be possible that God could lead us into the mountains somewhere for the 7 year period? I'm just thinking out loud here, that's all.

[Christian40]

Anyhow, like with every other end times Christian movie(whether good or error-filled), a few things I took notice, one of them being some of the Christians were able to hide out somewhere in the mountains(hence being protected during the trib, while others were sent to jail waiting to be beheaded).

Which gets me thinking - ASSUMING the post-trib position is correct, could it be possible that God could lead us into the mountains somewhere for the 7 year period? I'm just thinking out loud here, that's all.

Well i dont know about that being pre-trib, what are you going to do in the mountains? how will be serving the Lord Jesus, preaching the Gospel to people if your hiding out somewhere?

LUKE 17:
33 Whosoever shall seek to SAVE HIS LIFE shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

MATTHEW 16:
25 For whosoever will SAVE HIS LIFE shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

It may be that you have to die as a martyr.

[Kilika]

Yeah, I'm not seeing the Lord leading us into hiding literally, especially when scripture describes how evil men try to hide from the face of Him...

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" Revelation 6:16 (KJB)

Now that said, along with the verses that Christian posted, we need to look at all of the story to clarify who is being told what by scripture.

Firstly, we know we must live by faith. So that to me means that we must have faith that no matter what, Jesus is with us and will NEVER leave us, correct? Of course.

So, that means we are not living by faith if we are taking measures to avoid tribulation in a sense. What is the fear that moves one to do something out of the normal? Why would one flee to the mountains? AH!, there it is!...

"Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto." Luke 21:21 (KJB)

This is what BA is referring to I think. But the operative word in that warning is "Jerusalem". Now are we to take a verse and read it one way literally and another spiritually? Not in this case I think. There is a literal Jerusalem and literal tribulation. If you are not literally in Jerusalem, then it must be applied spiritually by all those outside of the literal geographic region. That's how I perceive it. Jerusalem and Judea is a special situation, like no other place on earth. Special things apply just to Jerusalem and the surrounding area.

We can also look at the description of the woman that hides in the wilderness in Revelation 12, which can be interpreted as being the body of Christ. She "fled into the wildrness...", which to me spiritually, that wilderness is none other than living in the world as we do now. Secular society can be interpreted as being a spiritual wilderness I think. We are literally "hidden" in plain sight within the "wilderness" of the world.

What did Jesus say?...

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15 (KJB)

"Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world." 1 Corinthians 5:10 (KJB)

We may die by the point of a sword, or by "cancer", or whatever, but does it really matter? NOPE, not a bit. Why? Because...

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Hebrews 9:27 (KJB)

"For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's." Romans 14:8 (KJB)

[Psalm 51:17]

OK, hate to dig up this thread again, but I have one question relating to the final 7 year trib...

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

For the "man of sin"(ie-the Antichrist) to rise to power, there has to be a global catastrophe FIRST?

So basically we won't be knowing who this guy is until this global catastrophe happens?

The reason why I'm asking is b/c at this very second while I'm typing this post, it's not like we're witnessing any charismatic power rising in Europe or the ME yet. So basically we won't notice anyone getting this kind of attention until some kind of global catastrophe happens?

[Mark]

OK, hate to dig up this thread again, but I have one question relating to the final 7 year trib...

but your so good at it. 

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

For the "man of sin"(ie-the Antichrist) to rise to power, there has to be a global catastrophe FIRST?

So basically we won't be knowing who this guy is until this global catastrophe happens?

The reason why I'm asking is b/c at this very second while I'm typing this post, it's not like we're witnessing any charismatic power rising in Europe or the ME yet. So basically we won't notice anyone getting this kind of attention until some kind of global catastrophe happens?

What im saying when i said that, in today's political world i do not see how 1 person could take control peacefully. Really i dont see it. But after the rapture i see it very easily, regardless to how the rapture is explained away. Especially if you use the alien or all non christians.

The falling away is happening right now and has been ongoing for some time. Where is the sound doctrine and Biblical truth in todays churches? Its gone. So we are ripe for the rise of the antichrist. hes out there right now, probably starting his political rise or already elected to a small office or something. But the signing of the treaty is what starts the Trib, not the rapture its self.

[Psalm 51:17]

What im saying when i said that, in today's political world i do not see how 1 person could take control peacefully. Really i dont see it. But after the rapture i see it very easily, regardless to how the rapture is explained away. Especially if you use the alien or all non christians.

The falling away is happening right now and has been ongoing for some time. Where is the sound doctrine and Biblical truth in todays churches? Its gone. So we are ripe for the rise of the antichrist. hes out there right now, probably starting his political rise or already elected to a small office or something. But the signing of the treaty is what starts the Trib, not the rapture its self.

Thanks for the insight on this - if you or anyone here has watched the "Dead Zone"(about a guy who got witchcraft psychic powers after an accident that crippled his leg), toward the end of its run, there was some young, handsome looking hot-shot who came out of nowhere to run for a Congressional seat in the NE. While he was campaigning, people around him were dying mysteriously, and even the main character in the show had no idea what was going on(even his "psychic powers" told him nothing). B/w the time he got elected and the time he rose to Vice President was only 2 years, however, the main character kept having visions of an asteroid attacking the House of Congress. This young hot-shot figure was so charming and charismatic, that he even wooed the other regular characters on the show(including the main character's PREACHER friend).

Anyhow, no, I don't endorse the show(it was a favorite of mine during my unsaved days), but thought I found this subplot kind of intriguing.

[Kilika]

The world tends to poke at the truth with their stories. I see it all the time shows taking a jab at the truth with their storylines, and it is pretty much guaranteed whatever "Christian" aspect of the story, it is going to be from the Catholic perspective.

Many of the people involved have no idea how the spirit world is manipulating their daily lifes, by influencing what they do, particularly at work. In the movie industry and television, and media in general, it's the pr arm of the world, and who runs this world? Unbelievers just can't put 2 and 2 together without the Spirit. It's right there in front of them, and they just can't see it.

The other thing is the world isn't original. "There is nothing new under the sun". So any story Hollywood puts out, it's already been done. Having taken a directing class in college, we learned that the main thrust of a storyline is the protaganist and antagonist charaters. That classic fight between good and evil. It's the basis for all their storylines. It's what they are taught in writing and directing classes. But the world has a different idea of who the hero is, which is always man saving the day all by his lonesome. The classic lie.

[Psalm 51:17]

^^

I know what you're saying about Hollywood movies, but anyhow, was watching the 4th installment of the Terminator movies for the first time the other night - maybe it's probably nothing, but noticed this for the first time since I watched the 1st Terminator movie. The entire plots in each of the movies wasn't yet at the "apocalyse war" b/w the "good forces" and the "machines", but the character John Conner was being "prophecized" to be the "savior" of all mankind by leading victory in this "apocalyse war" against the machines(which is why, of course, the "evil forces" go back in time to try to knock off Conner in each of the 4 movies - in the 1st one if you remember, he was still in his mother's womb).

Anyhow, in each of these movies, in addition to the "John Conner" character being touted as this "savior of the world", the "good forces" were going back in time as well to PROTECT and PRESERVE him. So ultimately, pretty much the entire series was meant to condition audiences in prepping for the COUNTERFEIT "savior"(the one described in Rev 13, of course) when the time comes. I mean remember the 2nd installment in 1991 where the "good" machine ended up melting himself in the fire at the end in order that the entire "evil forces" machines will be destroyed in its entirety, which should have prevented any more sequels(but somehow they ended up making 2 more, and FOX put out a Sarah Conner chronicles series briefly a couple of years ago).

FWIW, just something I ended up noticing for the first time while watching these installments. Also, look at John Conner's initials...JC...look familiar?

[Christian40]

Thanks for that explanation of the Terminator movies, i had forgotten about them, to tell you the truth when i used to watch these dumb movies i had no idea about the subtle messages in them, i would only watch them for entertainment or the action in it, like most people clueless that was any underpinning in the movie, or that the movie wanted me to think of certain things, subliminal messages and that, i see your point it is like Hollywood wants to show us that we need a counterfeit savior to rescue us from something weird suddenly appearing, like robots or aliens in the movies, and they want us to believe that the counterfeit savior is better than the Lord Jesus. All through history mankind has been imagining this counterfeit savior and when the Antichrist appears it will be like mankind has been waiting so long and he is finally here.

[Mark]

allrighty than...

I keep hearing people talk about how the "rapture" is at the second coming, that when Jesus returns in the air, on his horse, that we are all raptured, then and this is the first resurrection. We if so, than we arent actually caught up n the air with the Lord, and it doesnt happen until after, the Lord tosses the satan into the bottomless pit.

Also those that are raised at this point are just the Tribulation saints. I guess is die before the Trib your kind of stuck waiting?

BA you have an answer?

Rev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

as you can see in 20:4, those are the ones killed during the TRIB. Not those whom have died before, as they are in heaven already with the Lord in Rev 19:4.

So if the rapture happens at the first resurrection, than why is it only Trib Saints that are raised? And if you notice, these ones are resurrected, not translated into new bodies.

[Kilika]

While this is one of those topics that I don't consider an important one and genrally avoid it, because we will be "raptured" or "transformed" or "caught up" in due time, whether we are correct about the chronology of events or not, the basic points still stand. In spite of what scripture says, some still don't get it, and yet insist on arguing their points. This is vain and unprofitable, and thus why I avoid the topic.

That said, a person on another site commented one time on this topic as they were debating back and forth, "There are multiple raptures".

That's true. There actually is more than one rapture event. And it isn't all at the beginning of the tribulation either.

Jesus didn't say, "I will pull you out of the evil".

Jesus says, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15 (KJB)

[Mark]

The first resurrection, isnt the Rapture. it is the This is the first resurrection

clearly a different event. different people involved, different place and time. I think its worth talking about at least.

[Psalm 51:17]

OK guys, I think you got my convinced, even though just A BIT.

Seriously, I was in the shower a couple of weeks ago meditating on 1st The 4:13-18...

1Th 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1) Wasn't Paul talking to the GENTILE CHURCH in The, and NOT the Jews? When I meditated on the words "alive and remain..." - pretty much if it's a post-trib rapture, how can any of the Gentile believers be around at the end of the 7 year tribulation when they would have been beheaded earlier for not taking the mark of the beast? Which is why I kept on thinking about the believers are are ALIVE AND REMAIN at the coming of Jesus talked about in this passage. And look at the last verse 18, COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS. See what I'm trying to say here?

2) And there are other verses, for example in Peter, that talk about how we need to be grabbing hold on eternal life, and Jesus's coming, etc. I will post them later b/c I have to run somewhere for a couple of hours. But see what I'm trying to say here again?

Again, I'm not completely convinced, but I'll admit I'm starting to lean that way.

[Christian40]

i hope i'm not confusing anyone but:

1) Wasn't Paul talking to the GENTILE CHURCH in The, and NOT the Jews? When I meditated on the words "alive and remain..." - pretty much if it's a post-trib rapture, how can any of the Gentile believers be around at the end of the 7 year tribulation when they would have been beheaded earlier for not taking the mark of the beast? Which is why I kept on thinking about the believers are are ALIVE AND REMAIN at the coming of Jesus talked about in this passage. And look at the last verse 18, COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS. See what I'm trying to say here?

1) Paul was taking to both Jews and Gentiles, both Jews and Gentiles make up the Church. The Jewish evangelists in the Tribulation period preach to the whole world not just Israel (we have cameras these days ) Gentile believers that get saved in the Tribulation period? why not?

2) And there are other verses, for example in Peter, that talk about how we need to be grabbing hold on eternal life, and Jesus's coming, etc. I will post them later b/c I have to run somewhere for a couple of hours. But see what I'm trying to say here again?

2) The Lord Jesus is eternal life. He is the life. i think that is why Peter mentions Him.

[Mark]

The 24 Elders...  Who are they? 

They have Crowns and Thrones, so who are they? Are they actual people or a representation of people?

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

comments?

[Psalm 51:17]

The 24 Elders...  Who are they? 

Yeah, I could never figure that out - I don't think they're the church - otherwise, if we have to spin it like that, then we're over-spiritualizing scripture(and would end up spiritualizing many other passages), and would be inviting this replacement theology heresy to creep in.

[Psalm 51:17]

The 24 Elders...  Who are they? 

They have Crowns and Thrones, so who are they? Are they actual people or a representation of people?

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

comments?

Reading this verse many times, to be honest, I still don't know - personally, I lean heavily on a literal interpretation. It's not like Jesus Christ is speaking a parable here(he did so largely with the Jews and Pharisees during his 3.5 year earthly ministry, but not outside of that I don't think).

While I do believe Jesus Christ will rapture his bride roughly around the time the AC makes his appearance - I don't think this particular verse talks about a representation of people.

[Mark]

Reading this verse many times, to be honest, I still don't know - personally, I lean heavily on a literal interpretation. It's not like Jesus Christ is speaking a parable here(he did so largely with the Jews and Pharisees during his 3.5 year earthly ministry, but not outside of that I don't think).

While I do believe Jesus Christ will rapture his bride roughly around the time the AC makes his appearance - I don't think this particular verse talks about a representation of people.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood that is only for Christians. period. Not Angels, not beasts not anything else but Christians. If there are 24 of them, than how are they from, out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation? I cant make that work. So if they are Christians, how and when did they get there?

[Psalm 51:17]

Very interesting...good catch! If it is, let's say, a literal 24 elders...well, yeah, I see the point now.

The beauty of it all with the bible is that you have to divide the word of truth - a lot of people(including myself) can get into a bad habit of merely reading a few verses, or even 1-2, and start cherry-picking how the bible teaches a post-trib rapture. I'll admit, I was like that for almost 4 years until recently.

Remember when Scott did his audio teaching supporting the post-trib rapture almost a year and a half ago, he TOOK DOWN this teaching a week later. Maybe he himself saw his own flaws?

[Kilika]

out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation

I agree, that's the telling part. I think they are Christians, not heavenly staff. And they are separate from the 12 apostles from what I understand.

[Christian40]

Very interesting...good catch! If it is, let's say, a literal 24 elders...well, yeah, I see the point now.

Remember when Scott did his audio teaching supporting the post-trib rapture almost a year and a half ago, he TOOK DOWN this teaching a week later. Maybe he himself saw his own flaws?

You are now pretrib now? i thought you were already pretrib. i dont remember Dr Johnson saying he was wrong with his posttrib beliefs, but as Dr Johnson talks about Christians having discernment wouldn't he himself be able to discern that the pretrib rapture belief is right? i'm still looking for the Blessed Hope it is coming soooooonnnn.

[Mark]

I agree, that's the telling part. I think they are Christians, not heavenly staff. And they are separate from the 12 apostles from what I understand.

well lets go on then. I think i have it figured out.

Now the number 24 is what is key to who these are and what they are doing. We can agree they are in fact Christians, they are saved by Jesus's blood, they are from every  kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. They are on Thrones, clothed in WHITE raiment and have crowns, all promised to the Christian. So they are Christians, nothing else fits.

So why are there 24 and are they just a representation of all Christians? I think they are and here is why.

When we get saved we aren’t just saved and given a crown and washed in the blood of the Lamb, we are also indoctrinated into a priesthood. Each and every one of us is a priest for Jesus, and not just a normal priesthood but a Royal one. 

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath

Now considering that we are a Royal Priesthood, there were always Elders set up in the Church and even before the Church. We first find the 24 elder representatives way back in 1 Chronicles 24. Here David sets up the 24 elders for all the priesthood to work in the Temple. I believe that is why there are 24. King David set 24 up way back then. You could also say these are 12 for the tribes of Israel, and 12 for the Apostles but i don’t think that works. As these 24 are already shown to be CHRISTIAN and Israel has not accepted Jesus as their savior yet.

So if these 24 are in fact just elders of the Royal Priesthood then they and all CHRISTIANS, are in Heaven BEFORE the start of the Tribulation. They are in the Throne room performing their priestly duties BEFORE, Jesus comes and takes the scroll that starts the Tribulation. They are there with their crowns and robed in White, none of that happens until the Rapture. So clearly they were raptured before Jesus even touches the SCROLL. And if they are raptured, that means we all are raptured before the start of the Tribulation.

So the RAPTURE of the church has to take place BEFORE the start of the Tribulation.

[Kilika]

As an aside...After going back and reading over chapter 5, I noticed again this verse...

"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." Revelation 5:6 (KJB)

For a separate discussion, curious it says "seven spirits of God". Hmm. Need to ask God for clarification on that one.

Anyway...

I see your point and reasoning. But more importantly, does scripture say it outright? Your having to make a couple assumptions, like a software programmer does with the syntax of "if, then...".

It does stand to reason that those 24, being Christians and part of the whole body, are in heaven, then all Christians would be there too when those 24 arrive in heaven. I get that reasoning. But does scripture show that? Or are we left with assuming? I mean the logic is sound, and I'm fine with that, but for the sake of understanding and clarity to interpret the reasoning, scripture would be better than an assumption. See what I'm saying?

Along those lines, we can make an assumption about those 24 being "the younger", based on...

"But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve." Luke 22:26 (KJB)

2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4  If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1 Corinthians 6:2-4 (KJB)

So is Jesus talking directly to the apostles, or to all believers? I believe that is directed at all believers. While it doesn't clarify who the 24 are directly, it does suggest to me that they will be those who men would least expect to be on a throne as judge. They, I think, are the ones who in the end were the most humble, in God's eyes.

So do the 24 "judge angels"? Not sure, but it seems so, but I hesitate because it says "saints" without clarifying, and we know all believers are called saints.

Also, remember that the new temple will have 12 pillars with the names of the 12 apostles on it, and that they are given a throne and crowns as well.

Are we seeing some overlap on our part? We have the saints, then the 12, then the 24, each sitting in judgement as kings and priests with Jesus.

I can agree though, if the 24 are Christian, then unless scripture says otherwise, it appears that the body of Christ is in heaven before the seals are broken. THAT is pre-trib.

"Let God be true..."

[Mark]

I  see your point and reasoning. But more importantly, does scripture say it outright? Your having to make a couple assumptions, like a software programmer does with the syntax of "if, then...".

It does stand to reason that those 24, being Christians and part of the whole body, are in heaven, then all Christians would be there too when those 24 arrive in heaven. I get that reasoning. But does scripture show that? Or are we left with assuming? I mean the logic is sound, and I'm fine with that, but for the sake of understanding and clarity to interpret the reasoning, scripture would be better than an assumption. See what I'm saying?

1 Thee 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Dead in Christ shall rise first, then those Christians still alive will be caught up together with them. This is the Rapture, this is when all believers go to Heaven at 1 time. When we die the very next thing we know is the Rapture. Not heaven, not pearly gates but the Rapture. Regardless to when we die, that happens next. You already agreed with this statement.

Those who die, "sleep" in the grave till such a time as they are called from the grave. They have no awareness of that time. I believe they won't perceive it at all, but will perceive when they die that they move right to the judgment seat, though it may have been thousands of years or the day before that they died.

So for any Christian to be in Heaven, and the text clearly PROOVES these are Christian than we are all there. And this shows beyond a shadow of doubt that it is in fact PRE TRIB.


The way i see the 24 elders is it isnt a permanent position. The 24 elders of the Temple set up by David was rotational. It wasnt a life time appointment. So maybe these 24 seats get rotated. Don’t know but that is how it worked in the original priesthood. We all will get thrones, and sit in Judgment with Christ even over Angels, we all receive Crowns and White Robes, but in order to have a Royal Priesthood you would still have to have an order. So i think the elders are just that a rotational seat just like in the original temple.

[Kilika]

You already agreed with this statement.

That's true. And I do. I wasn't disputing perse', just putting it within your reasoning. To say something out of assumption and reason based on something indirectly written is, well, an assumption. As I said, verse would be more edifying if there is one that may clarify.

I asked for verse because I thought you may know of one, as I can't think of any.

Rotating position? Never heard that before! I do know there is absolutely zero scripture that offers even a hint of such a thing. Please show me what scripture your using for the basis of that thought. Scripture doesn't cover it that I know of, thus, it's as possible as not possible at this point, but I have serious doubts it's a "rotation". I'm not familiar with the Judaic 24 elders laws.

[Mark]

That's true. And I do. I wasn't disputing perse', just putting it within your reasoning. To say something out of assumption and reason based on something indirectly written is, well, an assumption. As I said, verse would be more edifying if there is one that may clarify.

I asked for verse because I thought you may know of one, as I can't think of any.

I posted 1 Thess 4:16, you cant get more clear than that on all being raptured at once.

Rotating position? Never heard that before! I do know there is absolutely zero scripture that offers even a hint of such a thing. Please show me what scripture your using for the basis of that thought. Scripture doesn't cover it that I know of, thus, it's as possible as not possible at this point, but I have serious doubts it's a "rotation". I'm not familiar with the Judaic 24 elders laws.

The temple service was divided into courses that would be served on a rotating basis, and once your course was done than someone new would be picked. So there were 24 people on a 24 rotational course. We see this most clearly with Zacharias in the temple when the Lord was born. Zacharias was on the couse of Abia.

Before the Temple was built, David received instructions from the Holy Spirit and showed Solomon how to divide the priests and the Levites and how they were to serve. In the Temple, there were several classes of Levites:

Priests (1 Chronicles 24:1-19)
Priests' Assistants (1 Chronicles 23:4,28)
Singers (1 Chronicles 25:7-31)
Musicians (1 Chronicles 23:5)
Gatekeepers (1 Chronicles 26:1-19)
Keepers of the Treasure (1 Chronicles 26:20-28)
In addition, there were also officers and judges (1 Chronicles 26:29-32) that assigned outside responsibilities.

The priests and the Levites were divided into 24 courses within their assigned class. The length of each course was 7 days (1 Chronicles 9:25). The week of service began and ended on the Sabbath (2 Chronicles 23:8). In addition, all the priests served for 3 extra weeks during the year (Deuteronomy 16:16).

Each course of priests and Levites came on duty for a week, from one Sabbath to another. It should be made clear that not every priest and Levite in a course served every day. The service was subdivided among the various families which constituted a course. The number of families in a course varied. The singers had only one family in each course (1 Chronicles 25:7-31) whereas the other classes had up to 9 families in a course.

The Jewish calendar has only 51 weeks in a year. Each of the 24 courses therefore served twice a year, plus 3 weeks they all served, for a total of 5 weeks during the year. Every 2 or 3 years, there is a leap year which adds a leap month. It was not certain how the priests served these extra days.

hope that helps some. It was a rotating service.