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Did Jesus Have Long Hair?

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Mark
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« on: April 11, 2012, 02:09:26 pm »

Did Jesus Have Long Hair?
Proper Hair Lengths and Styles in God’s Church


Almost every artist’s rendering of Christ portrays Him with long hair. But is this accurate? Can we know? The answers to these questions, and to those concerning acceptable hair lengths and styles for men and women, are found in God’s Word.

Many have been taught that Jesus had long hair. Does the Bible say this? Some men try to justify having long hair by saying, “It’s okay for my hair to be long because Christ’s was.” Others contend that Christ had long hair because he was a “Nazarite.”

Both are false! History shows that short hair on men has been around for a long time—much longer than many realize. At the time Jesus lived, it was the accepted and general custom. For proof, all one need do is pick up any illustrated history book relating to the period. You will find pictures of busts and statues of famous Greeks and Romans of Christ’s time. In every case, the men are portrayed with short hair similar to what we find today.

Two excellent books that one may reference are A History of the Holy Land (Michael Avi-Yonah, editor) and Daniel to Paul (Gaalyahu Cornfeld, editor). On pages 126 to 127 of the former, you will find pictures of the busts of Roman leaders, such as Augustus, Pompey, and one believed to be Herod. Each one has short hair. As a matter of fact, all the carvings and statues of the Roman legionnaires show them as having closely cropped hair. Motion pictures involving stories of this time period always portray men with short hair. It would have been quite an oddity for a Roman man to wear his hair long. It used to be the same for all men in our society. The reality is that before, during and after the time of Christ, every Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to Trajan had short hair. And it was the emperor who set the pattern in style and mode of dress for the entire empire.

The Hellenistic Greek culture dominated the Eastern Mediterranean area, influencing Judea before the Romans came on the scene. Quite a large segment of the Jewish population spoke the Greek language and had a Hellenistic view in the time of Christ. (Notice John 12:20; Acts 6:1.) The style of hair for men of this culture was to wear it short. (Cornfeld, pp.15, 146). You will find on page 146 of the book Daniel to Paul a picture showing a “marble statuette of an unidentified man of the Hellenistic period—a time of close contacts between the Jewish and Hellenistic civilizations in thought, art, and everyday life. Whether Jewish or Gentile, he evokes his age and environment.” The man shown in the picture of this statuette had short hair. From the comment made by the author, a learned historian and archaeologist, it is clear that he could not tell if the man was a Jew or a Gentile. Why? Because throughout the Near-Eastern region, the styles were the same—including short hair on men.

Some argue that those Jews who did not have a Hellenistic view may have worn their hair long. However, in the anti-Hellenistic Jewish Talmud is the instruction that every thirty days, all the priests should cut their hair. Why this instruction if they grew their hair long? These priests were well aware of Ezekiel 44:20: “Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long.” God intended that the priests set the example for the rest of the community. (Mal. 2:7). Further examination of the Talmud reveals that the hairstyle was “Julian,” or what would be called “a Caesar cut” (Sanhedrin 22b).

Was Christ Under a Nazarite Vow?

Erroneously assuming that Jesus was under a Nazarite vow, some may further argue that although the hairstyle for men of Christ’s time was short, He wore His hair long. But Christ was never under such a vow. He did grow up in Nazareth, fulfilling a prophecy that He would be called a Nazarene (Matt. 2:23; Mark 1:9; Luke 1:26; John 1:45). This is why early Christians were sometimes referred to as Nazarenes. However, neither of these words has anything whatsoever to do with a Nazarite vow. Those under a Nazarite vow could not drink wine or touch a dead body.

Notice: “Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord: He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. All the days that he separates himself unto the Lord he shall come at [touch] no dead body” (Num. 6:2-3, 6).

Christ drank wine (Matt. 11:19) and, on occasion, touched a dead body (Matt. 9:25). Had He been under a Nazarite vow, He would not have done either of these things. Those under this vow grew their hair long as a sign of humiliation. Men who wear their hair long today are anything but humble. Rather, they are very proud of their long locks and go to great lengths to show them off. It is a sign of pride. It is also a sign of defiance against traditional values.

Also notice that when the time of the vow was over, the person under the vow was to shave his head (Num. 6:18)—ending this shameful period!

How do we know it was a shameful time? I Corinthians states, “Does not even nature [the inborn quality of a man as contrasted to that of a woman] itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?” (11:14).

It is a shame for a man to have his hair long. Apart from God’s Word, even nature shows this. A man should not look like a woman! For one thing, long hair is not manageable and would just get in his way. A man’s hair was never intended to grow long. Long hair on a man interferes with the duties and responsibilities that are part of the male role.

Christ simply would not have grown His hair long. To do so would have contradicted His Word. Remember, it was Christ—the Word (John 1:1)—who inspired the Bible. II Timothy tells us, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (3:16). And since Jesus Christ also inspired I Corinthians 11:14, He would have been true to His word. And that Word guides and instructs us on the matter of hair lengths and styles for men and women.

What Christ Did Look Like

The Second Commandment clearly prohibits any artist’s rendering of what Christ may have looked like: “You shall not make unto yourself any graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth” (Ex. 20:4).

Almost all artists’ renderings portray Jesus with long hair, soft, feminine—if not effeminate—features, and a sentimental, sanctimonious look in His eyes. They bear no similarity in any way to what Christ really looked like.

The Christ of your Bible did not look like this! If it were important for us to know exactly what He looked like as a man, it would have been recorded.

In fact, nowhere in God’s Word are we told to be concerned with what Christ looked like as a human being. The only description we are given is this: “For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: He has no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him” (Isa. 53:2).

Jesus would have looked like any other Jewish man of His time. He would have been a normal, healthy, masculine-looking man. As a carpenter, He spent most of His life working outdoors (Mark 6:3). He did not look like an effeminate weakling—with long hair!

Christ had short hair, like a man should have. And it would have been neatly trimmed and kept. As the Son of God, Jesus always set the right example.

On a number of occasions, He was able to blend into a crowd because He looked just like everyone else (Luke 4:30; John 8:59; 10:39). Think! If Jesus had had long hair, contrary to the accepted style of the time, it would not have been necessary for Judas to use a special sign—a kiss—to point Him out to His enemies. Christ would have stood out from the crowd!

Ultimately, if we think about Christ’s appearance at all, we ought to think, in general terms, about how He looks today. Inspired by God, the apostle John described Jesus’ present appearance: “His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire” (Rev. 1:14).

What About Leviticus 19:27 and 21:5?

Still, some may ask about two passages in the book of Leviticus that seem to prohibit the cutting of one’s hair. They read, “You shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shall you mar the corners of your beard” (Lev. 19:27); and “They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh” (21:5).

A casual reading of these passages seems to imply that it is wrong to shave or cut one’s hair. However, this is not the case. Reading from the American Translation by Goodspeed helps one to understand the true meaning of these verses: “You must not shave around your temple, nor do away with the corners of your beard” and “They must not shave part of their heads bald, nor shave off the corners of their beards, nor make incisions in their bodies.” Recognize that this was instruction to the nation of Israel after they had come out of Egypt. For centuries, they had not known the true God or His ways. The only way of life they had been exposed to was the pagan culture of Egypt, with its multitude of false gods.

Notice this admonition in Jeremiah 10:2: “Thus says the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen.” The ancient Israelites had undoubtedly learned some of Egypt’s ways, necessitating that God instruct them in His ways.

It was a ceremonial custom of the heathen to cut and trim beards and hair into special shapes that would honor a particular pagan deity—often the sun god. The Egyptians of old cropped their dark locks very short. Or they shaved it precisely, leaving the remaining hair on the crown, forming a circle that surrounded the head (the halo has been borrowed from this practice), while they dressed their beards in a square form. Conversely, a round bald spot may have been shaved on the head.

Again, this practice was intended to honor a pagan god. Doing these things does not honor the true God. The Bible forbids this kind of worship.

Many males (and some females) today are adopting hairstyles borrowed from: Pagan cultures; rebellious skinhead movements (shaving their heads bald); modern religious/cultural movements (such as Rastafarian); famous rock groups and other artists; and any number of other shocking, outlandish styles and fashions.

Those in God’s Church must not copy the ways of this world. We are to “come out from among them, and be… separate” (II Cor. 6:17). Christ left His people an example to follow (I Pet. 2:21). This rules out worldly hairstyles for men, such as braids, ponytails and dreadlocks.

Certainly, shaving one’s beard and cutting one’s hair for normal good grooming, in a way that honors God and is acceptable to Him, is something entirely different. This is not condemned but rather enforced by the scriptures. In general terms, a male’s hair should not cover his ears or reach to the shirt collar. It should be worn in a clean, well-kept way. (There is also another reason that a male should not shave off his sideburns. Doing this also makes him appear feminine).

A Woman’s Hair Is Her Covering

The Bible states that “If a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering” (I Cor. 11:15). Two points emerge from this verse.

First, something that is a “glory” should be given special attention and care. A woman’s hair ought to be well groomed and worn in a clean, tasteful, attractive manner. If neglected, hair will quickly become a matted, tangled, unattractive mess!

Yet, a woman should be mindful of modesty and tastefulness. She should not draw undue attention to herself. Vanity will lead some to extremes, which is certainly not the will of God.

We find these instructions in I Timothy: “In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array. But (which becomes women professing godliness) with good works” (2:9-10).

Also read I Peter 3:3-5: “Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands.”

The “braided hair, or gold or pearls” that Paul refers to was a popular style of his day. Women piled their hair in an overdone, immodest, flashy, sometimes outlandish set of braids interwoven with expensive jewelry. Often, it included wreaths woven in. This was obviously a showy display, motivated by vanity. Women in God’s Church must avoid these kinds of extremes. God’s Word teaches that a Christian must exemplify modesty and discretion. God’s principle is that real beauty comes from within.

Second, a woman’s hair is her “covering.” It can only be considered a covering if it is long enough to do this. In I Corinthians 11:2-16, Paul is primarily explaining the hair lengths for women. He describes four different lengths: Covered (long hair); not covered (short hair); shorn (very short hair); and shaved (bald).

Notice verses 5 and 6: “But every woman that prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.” Paul is saying that if a woman’s hair is not long enough to cover her head, it is the same as if her hair was cut very short or if she was shaved bald! For women, there is no difference between uncovered, shorn and shaven!

So if a woman wears her hair in any of these ways, it is shameful and a dishonor to her, and unacceptable to God. And because it is shameful for a woman to have short or shaved hair, it needs to be long enough to be a covering.

There is another reason a woman’s hair should be long: “For a man indeed ought not to cover his head [have long hair], forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power [long hair showing she is under authority] on her head because of the angels” (I Cor. 11:7-10).

When a woman has long hair, it shows that she is under authority and in submission to her husband. The phrase “because of the angels” shows that when a woman “uncovers” her head, she loses angelic protection. That is serious!

Then comes verse 15: “But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.”

But how long does a woman’s hair need to be in order for it to be a “covering”? The word cover provides the answer. A woman’s hair must cover her ears and neck to be considered a “covering.” (However, this is not to say that it cannot be worn up in a way that does not always cover her ears and neck.) This is because these are the first two features of the head to be covered as hair grows significantly longer.

Most lengths are appropriate if long enough to be a covering and if the way one’s hair grows is taken into consideration. Most styles are acceptable as long as they are clean-looking, in good taste, modest and feminine-looking.

It Does Matter!

How we look and appear before the great Creator God is important! How we as God’s children wear our hair does matter. If we are true Christians, then we are one of the few lights in this dark world (Matt. 5:14). How we wear our hair shows what kind of light we are!

In contrast to this mixed up, messed up world, men in God’s Church should look like men, and women in the Church should look like women—as God always intended! We are to come out of the world—not follow after it, copy it or be a part of it.

As true Christians we should never appear strange or outlandish in actions, attire or the way we wear our hair. Instead, our whole attitude should be one of modesty, humility, submission and service to God.

http://rcg.org/articles/djhlh.html
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Kilika
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2012, 04:09:53 am »

Quote
It Does Matter!

How we look and appear before the great Creator God is important!

No, it is not important. Scripture says that man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. The outside of the cup is irrelevant.

Hair length? Shall we be put under yet another law? With Jesus, it's about the law of liberty, not constraint.

13   Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 
14   Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 
15   But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering. 
16   But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
1 Corinthians 11:13-16 (KJB)
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2012, 05:00:53 am »

No, it is not important. Scripture says that man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. The outside of the cup is irrelevant.

Hair length? Shall we be put under yet another law? With Jesus, it's about the law of liberty, not constraint.

13   Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 
14   Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 
15   But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering. 
16   But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
1 Corinthians 11:13-16 (KJB)


I think its important to know if the Lord had long hair or not. Especially with the shroud debate im having. Also if the Lord had long hair than he violated his own commandments. And we know he did not sin, so he could not have had long hair at all.
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2012, 05:17:03 am »

I think its important to know if the Lord had long hair or not. Especially with the shroud debate im having. Also if the Lord had long hair than he violated his own commandments. And we know he did not sin, so he could not have had long hair at all.

Good point. It is important to know. Did Adam have long hair? i dont believe he did either.
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 07:42:04 am »

I think its important to know if the Lord had long hair or not. Especially with the shroud debate im having. Also if the Lord had long hair than he violated his own commandments. And we know he did not sin, so he could not have had long hair at all.

I don't think Jesus had any outward beauty at all either(Isaiah 53 sums it up).

That painting of Jesus done by the Catholic Church(forgot the name of the artist that did it) is one big deception.
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 12:53:42 pm »

I think its important to know if the Lord had long hair or not. Especially with the shroud debate im having. Also if the Lord had long hair than he violated his own commandments. And we know he did not sin, so he could not have had long hair at all.

For your debate it may be relevant, but in general, it isn't. Of course Jesus had no sin. Still, "...we have no such custom..."

The Shroud is a distraction, a misdirection, all presented by the Catholic group. And in my opinion, it's a complete waste of time to have any dialog over that thing. While your arguing over a silly sheet of cloth, people want to know the truth, not about some linen sheet.

Did Jesus sin? Nope. Not once. HOWEVER, Jesus did preach and do things contrary to the Judaic law, yet had no sin.

The following is just one example...

17   Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 
18   But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 
19   For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 
20   These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Matthew 15:17-20 (KJB)


So, here Jesus tells them that the Judaic law that says you cannot eat with unwashen hands, and if you did, it would be a sin. Jesus is directly telling them the law doesn't matter, it's what is in your heart.

Long hair, short hair, whatever, that's all outward appearence and vain, and absolutely irrelevant to the Christian's walk in the Spirit.

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4 (KJB)
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 11:27:55 pm »

I bet Jesus had short hair because of the scripture:  Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

I think this scripture tells us that Jesus had short hair.
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 11:47:03 pm »

If I were pressed to guess, I'd say short as well, because that was the law, and as a result, I'd say the more common style to wear, more of the day or fashionable.

Short or long, it appears to me that the doctrine is not about length of hair. We have a liberty, though we don't use that liberty for occasion, we still can choose things. It's choice, not obligation to meet the requirements of the law. We already failed at that, remember? Thank you Jesus, we are washed clean by His blood, and sealed by His Spirit, are we not?

It's about examing oneself, and praying we seek what is the more edifying thing to do.

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." Galatians 5:13 (KJB)
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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2013, 08:24:57 pm »

I know this is from like a year ago, but I just had to comment.

Long hair, short hair, whatever, that's all outward appearence and vain, and absolutely irrelevant to the Christian's walk in the Spirit.

I do think that what we look like matters to God.

Saying that outward appearance is vain is the same as saying that a Christian woman can walk down the street in a tube top, mini skirt, and high heels and it won't matter at all to God nor affect her walk with Christ because appearance is vain... right?

Quote
The Shroud is a distraction, a misdirection, all presented by the Catholic group. And in my opinion, it's a complete waste of time to have any dialog over that thing. While your arguing over a silly sheet of cloth, people want to know the truth, not about some linen sheet.

I think its important to refute the Shroud of Turin because:

1) Catholics venerate it as an idol.

2) It paints a blatantly false picture of our Lord and Saviour.

3) If everyone thinks Jesus Christ looks like the face on the Shroud, then if the New Age Sananda shows up in the tribulation period looking JUST LIKE THE GUY ON THE SHROUD, won't that trip up a lot of people?
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2013, 04:08:54 am »

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I do think that what we look like matters to God.

Saying that outward appearance is vain is the same as saying that a Christian woman can walk down the street in a tube top, mini skirt, and high heels and it won't matter at all to God nor affect her walk with Christ because appearance is vain... right?

No, it is not the same! Scripture proves it. Besides, what you claim is showing no respect for Christian women. They wouldn't dress like that if they are in fact real believers. What your claiming is the same as having no faith because your using fear to say, "Oh no, they might dress wrong".

Your using fear just like those who say a person must be armed to "protect their family". The ONLY arming a person needs is the Holy Ghost within, which is the FULL armour of God. Yet people will say, "But what would you do if somebody were to break into your house and kidnap your spouse, etc". THAT is a lack of faith in God to do what He has promised to do, which is to protect us from evil, which people SHOULD be praying for "without ceasing", you know, the "Lord's Prayer". But then a person must actually believe their prayers are heard. Some just go through the motions, like Catholics, but are caught up in the law and have zero faith.

How a person dresses is "vanity and vexation of spirit". Look it up.

It is man that looks on the outward appearance. God doesn't, He looks on the heart...

"But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." 1 Corinthians 11:16 (KJB)

"But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7 (KJB)

It is in fact man who is being vain. Scripture says it. They are trying to live by the law, and force others to be burdened by the law, when we are under grace.

28  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Acts 15:28.29 (KJB)


20  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21  (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Colossians 2:20-23 (KJB)


"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4 (KJB)

Quote
I think its important to refute the Shroud of Turin because:

1) Catholics venerate it as an idol.

2) It paints a blatantly false picture of our Lord and Saviour.

3) If everyone thinks Jesus Christ looks like the face on the Shroud, then if the New Age Sananda shows up in the tribulation period looking JUST LIKE THE GUY ON THE SHROUD, won't that trip up a lot of people?

Again, that's a lack of faith. And no, it's not important. God doesn't care what the wicked do, because He doesn't know them. He already knows they are doing evil.

If you scold Catholics over the Shroud, then you need to scold them on ALL their hypocrisies about idols and graven images. Don't be selective, they got plenty to rebuke!

A false picture? Their whole religion is false!  Roll Eyes I expect them to be wrong and focus on the wrong things. That's what evil does, but you being concerned about it shows me your lack faith in God to reveal Himself to whom He chooses.

Do you honestly think God can't make Himself known to a person if that person is truly seeking Him? You actually think some stupid picture is going to derail what a person from the heart seeks? Talk about lacking faith in God! You need to repent! With God, NOTHING is impossible.

The damage that the RCC has done to you runs deeper than you realize. Your still thinking like a faithless Catholic who thinks they must help God do His job, which is to give the gift of the Holy Ghost (which is Jesus Christ in you) once born-again, which will lead all believers to the truth and direct them to what's right.

Why do you think God says the following...

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." 1 Corinthians 10:23 (KJB)

5  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:
6  From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7  Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8  But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;
9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10  For ****mongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1 Timothy 1:5-11 (KJB)
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2013, 11:43:21 am »

I think its important to know what Jesus looked like, just so we can say hey that isnt Jesus because he didnt have long hippy hair.



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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2013, 12:48:32 pm »


Your using fear just like those who say a person must be armed to "protect their family". The ONLY arming a person needs is the Holy Ghost within, which is the FULL armour of God. Yet people will say, "But what would you do if somebody were to break into your house and kidnap your spouse, etc". THAT is a lack of faith in God to do what He has promised to do, which is to protect us from evil, which people SHOULD be praying for "without ceasing", you know, the "Lord's Prayer". But then a person must actually believe their prayers are heard. Some just go through the motions, like Catholics, but are caught up in the law and have zero faith.

How a person dresses is "vanity and vexation of spirit". Look it up.


Yes worrying about the law is vain. But there is wisdom in it none the less.

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law..." Romans 7:7

And what about these verses....

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;" 1 Timothy 2:9

"But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." 1 Corinthians 11:15

I do think that God cares about how we present ourselves. Now are we saved because we cover up or believe that Jesus had long or short hair? NO! But, none the less, I think it can affect your faith. Especially men, because it a woman is dressing in a revealing manner, it can tempt them to sin. Is that solely the woman's fault? No, but she didn't help.



Quote
Again, that's a lack of faith. And no, it's not important. God doesn't care what the wicked do, because He doesn't know them. He already knows they are doing evil.

If you scold Catholics over the Shroud, then you need to scold them on ALL their hypocrisies about idols and graven images. Don't be selective, they got plenty to rebuke!

A false picture? Their whole religion is false!  Roll Eyes I expect them to be wrong and focus on the wrong things. That's what evil does, but you being concerned about it shows me your lack faith in God to reveal Himself to whom He chooses.

Do you honestly think God can't make Himself known to a person if that person is truly seeking Him? You actually think some stupid picture is going to derail what a person from the heart seeks? Talk about lacking faith in God! You need to repent! With God, NOTHING is impossible.

The damage that the RCC has done to you runs deeper than you realize. Your still thinking like a faithless Catholic who thinks they must help God do His job, which is to give the gift of the Holy Ghost (which is Jesus Christ in you) once born-again, which will lead all believers to the truth and direct them to what's right.



I don't think that you're understanding FFF position here. One, I don't think he's far off. I've read the arguements in the pre vs post trib thread and he's not Catholic. He says how he feels led to expose them and what not.

Just because someone is post-trib doesn't mean they are Catholic. I'm post-trib, and I wasn't raised Catholic at all. Scott Johnson was raised in all sorts of pseudo-Christian religion and he's post-trib.

But, anyway, yes I agree with FFF. A picture can alter someone's faith. What about baby Christians? They may think that the picture that Mark just posted, with the long hair hippy Jesus, is the REAL Jesus. But then, they may stumble upon the verse calling long hair a covering and a sin. Then the internal dialogue could go something like this...

 But, if Jesus had long hair ... He sinned... GASP! Our saviour sinned. So He can't bear my sins anymore...

Now obviously Jesus never sinned. But it could lead baby Christians down a bad road, and it could make it even harder to win them back for the Lord, through the power of the Holy Spirit, if we as Bible-believing Christians recognize something that's obviously false as truth.

And also, I think you were a little mean to FFF. This may just be because I'm a woman, and I'm a little shy at times. But I think when you come at someone and say that they aren't saved because of something like this.... it's prideful. I mean, no one hear thinks that this is a salvation issue. But, it could lead a few sheep down a wrong path. I think you were a little harsh in saying that he's not saved purely because he thinks that this could alter someones faith.

I believe that women not dressing modestly could lead many to temptation, am I not saved?
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2013, 03:17:49 pm »

Quote
Yes worrying about the law is vain. But there is wisdom in it none the less.

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law..." Romans 7:7

And what about these verses....

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;" 1 Timothy 2:9

"But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." 1 Corinthians 11:15

I do think that God cares about how we present ourselves. Now are we saved because we cover up or believe that Jesus had long or short hair? NO! But, none the less, I think it can affect your faith. Especially men, because it a woman is dressing in a revealing manner, it can tempt them to sin. Is that solely the woman's fault? No, but she didn't help.


Yea, there is wisdom and understanding in the law of God. It does not change. The law becomes a standard we fall, but we are no longer held to the penalty of the law, being saved by His Spirit in us, thus "free from the law of "sin and death".

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2 (KJB)

"Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?" 1 Corinthians 6:1 (KJB)

16  I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all [they] that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
17  And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
18  For in much wisdom [is] much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Ecclesiastes 1:16-18 (KJB)


Yes, that is true, a believing woman, and men too, are to dress modestly, not as a commandment, but out of edification and benefit of others who may not know the truth yet...

23  All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
24  Let no man seek his own, but every man another's [wealth].
1 Corinthians 10:23,24 (KJB)


You posting that verse shows that God has told you by His Word how you should act, which proves my point that God is there for those who seek Him, and He has by His Word made a way to escape, thus, a Christian woman will be compelled by His Spirit to dress modestly. A "virtuous woman" has His Spirit, and are by His Spirit, modest and humble.

If some want to have a "custom", so be it, so long as it causes no contentions. That is part of the liberty we have in Christ, but with that liberty comes the knowledge and exhortation to conduct ourselves in modesty and moderation.

"Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price [is] far above rubies." Proverbs 21:10 (KJB)

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...it can tempt them to sin. Is that solely the woman's fault? No, but she didn't help.

As I pointed out, I believe scripture addresses just that. The woman must ask God what is edifying and expedient. God will show them. No worries. God promised by giving us His Spirit.

But I ask you, can you stop the flesh from doing things that the law defines as sin? Are you stronger than Paul? Or do you think the following applies only to Paul's struggles with the flesh?...

20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 7:20-25 (KJB)


It is my belief that "war" Paul describes is in each of us. We all experience that very thing.

So no, I believe neither you, nor I, can stop "sinning" while in this corrupted fleshly body. That is the whole point of salvation. Jesus did what we as men cannot.

Otherwise, if you could actually make a difference, then what's the point of the Spirit? By that logic, you could save your self, which you cannot. THAT is why you are forgiven, eternally.

"And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace." Luke 7:50 (KJB)

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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2013, 03:38:20 pm »

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I don't think that you're understanding FFF position here. One, I don't think he's far off. I've read the arguements in the pre vs post trib thread and he's not Catholic. He says how he feels led to expose them and what not.

Just because someone is post-trib doesn't mean they are Catholic. I'm post-trib, and I wasn't raised Catholic at all. Scott Johnson was raised in all sorts of pseudo-Christian religion and he's post-trib.

But, anyway, yes I agree with FFF. A picture can alter someone's faith. What about baby Christians? They may think that the picture that Mark just posted, with the long hair hippy Jesus, is the REAL Jesus. But then, they may stumble upon the verse calling long hair a covering and a sin. Then the internal dialogue could go something like this...

 But, if Jesus had long hair ... He sinned... GASP! Our saviour sinned. So He can't bear my sins anymore...

Now obviously Jesus never sinned. But it could lead baby Christians down a bad road, and it could make it even harder to win them back for the Lord, through the power of the Holy Spirit, if we as Bible-believing Christians recognize something that's obviously false as truth.

And also, I think you were a little mean to FFF. This may just be because I'm a woman, and I'm a little shy at times. But I think when you come at someone and say that they aren't saved because of something like this.... it's prideful. I mean, no one hear thinks that this is a salvation issue. But, it could lead a few sheep down a wrong path. I think you were a little harsh in saying that he's not saved purely because he thinks that this could alter someones faith.

I believe that women not dressing modestly could lead many to temptation, am I not saved?


I'm not saying they are Catholic. Read my post again please. There is a huge difference between residual and practicing. The "old man" does not go away immediately.

If one wants to go by the law, then the example of a "proper" image is a violation of the law. No graven images. So technically, there should be zero images of what man perceives Jesus looks like. The law clearly states how men and women should dress.

I agree, Jesus I think had hair, and dress, based on Judaic law. The law says men are to have "short" hair, women long hair.

My contention is that regardless of false images, which are not edifying nor expedient, those who seek Jesus WILL find Him. That is a fact.

"... if you search for me with all your heart"

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harder to win them back for the Lord, through the power of the Holy Spirit

You really believe that? Harder for the Holy Spirit? You don't "win" anybody back "for the Lord". The Spirit is what draws them, not you! "Examine yourselves..."

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I think when you come at someone and say that they aren't saved because of something like this.... it's prideful.

Thank you for caring enough to point out what you believe to be error on my part. I believe doing so is, "Bear ye one another's burdens..."

I never said they are not saved! "Judge not..."

What I judged is their words. Not their salvation status. What I said was they were lacking faith. "Hast thou faith..."

"Not boasting of things without [our] measure, [that is], of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly," 2 Corinthians 10:15 (KJB)

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." 1 Corinthians 11:31 (KJB)

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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2013, 03:44:40 pm »

I think its important to know what Jesus looked like, just so we can say hey that isnt Jesus because he didnt have long hippy hair.

[image deleted for edification]

not Jesus Christ


We will see Him like He is. God says so, and that's enough for me.

If people want to see how Jesus looked while in a fleshly body, fine, we all are curious of all kinds of things. Just show them the Judaic law. He's described right there in scripture. And showing people what the Word says is the most edifying and expedient thing one can do.

Yet again, Jesus makes a way for us to escape!
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2013, 10:16:11 pm »

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No, it is not the same! Scripture proves it. Besides, what you claim is showing no respect for Christian women. They wouldn't dress like that if they are in fact real believers. What your claiming is the same as having no faith because your using fear to say, "Oh no, they might dress wrong".

It is the same. God cares what we look like. God made men and women to look different, and to look a certain way (men should have shorter hair and wear pants, women should have longer hair and wear skirts/dresses). Just like God cares what we say. We are to speak a certain way (clean speech without profanity). And what we do (we act appropriately and orderly, not chaotic and crazy).

Sodomy is a perfect example of how God cares. If God didn't care how things He created were used or presented, sodomy would be a-ok. Obviously, it's not. The Biblical sexual prohibitions are there because God made sex to be done the way He designed it. To do otherwise is a sin. Now if a woman had chemo therapy and can't grow out her hair or some other extenuating circumstance, God knows their heart and that they're trying. I'm not a legalist, I don't believe we are under the law. But that doesn't change what a man, a woman, or anything else was designed to be.

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Your using fear just like those who say a person must be armed to "protect their family". The ONLY arming a person needs is the Holy Ghost within, which is the FULL armour of God. Yet people will say, "But what would you do if somebody were to break into your house and kidnap your spouse, etc". THAT is a lack of faith in God to do what He has promised to do, which is to protect us from evil, which people SHOULD be praying for "without ceasing", you know, the "Lord's Prayer". But then a person must actually believe their prayers are heard. Some just go through the motions, like Catholics, but are caught up in the law and have zero faith.

How am I using fear, may I ask?

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If you scold Catholics over the Shroud, then you need to scold them on ALL their hypocrisies about idols and graven images. Don't be selective, they got plenty to rebuke!

Who said I wasn't? I think we SHOULD constantly remind people of the downright abominable practices of the Roman "church".

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A false picture? Their whole religion is false!  Roll Eyes I expect them to be wrong and focus on the wrong things. That's what evil does, but you being concerned about it shows me your lack faith in God to reveal Himself to whom He chooses.

So God will save those whom He will. No evangelizing necessary, right?

Obviously, I'm being sarcastic here, but saying that I have a lack of faith kind of stings. It also feels like you're saying we don't really need to do anything at all. God will save those whom He will, and the unbelievers? Well, there's nothing we can do about them... Obviously, we're not saved by works. Christ is the end of the law. However, faith without works is dead, being alone. And we are called to be salt and light. What does light do? Expose darkness.

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Do you honestly think God can't make Himself known to a person if that person is truly seeking Him? You actually think some stupid picture is going to derail what a person from the heart seeks? Talk about lacking faith in God! You need to repent! With God, NOTHING is impossible.

I don't know if you've ever ventured into the uncharted waters of secular forums, but the vast vast VAST majority of them are atheist/agnostic/Zeitgeist people. They put out propaganda and lies on a day-to-day basis. They do their best to make Christians look like hypocrites. And a lot of the time, it's not that hard, unfortunately. Take a look at this "de-motivational poster" from the internet:



Now it's stuff like this that are turning people away from the faith (and I'm talking about people NOT in the faith, not people in the faith falling away) like nothing else. Imagine all the people that have just as good a shot at getting saved (you can't claim to know who will get saved or not. That's why we preach to EVERYONE) but now they won't even bother opening up a Bible, thinking that Christians are just a bunch of hypocrites. Just like celebrating Easter the pagan fertility rite and Saturnalia the birth of the sun god Tammuz. Now we can thank the Catholic church for all of that, but nevertheless, they believe Catholics are Christians.

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The damage that the RCC has done to you runs deeper than you realize. Your still thinking like a faithless Catholic who thinks they must help God do His job, which is to give the gift of the Holy Ghost (which is Jesus Christ in you) once born-again, which will lead all believers to the truth and direct them to what's right.

I'm actually quite offended by that. Not in a "Oh, how dare he!" sense, but in the sense that you have judged a matter before you heard it. You don't know me. You don't know my walk with Christ. Yet you say I'm just thinking like some Catholic person because I think evangelizing and exposing evil and deception (like the Shroud of Turin and the false hippie long hair Jesus) is an important thing to do.

What is the great commission? To preach the Gospel to every living creature. Why would Jesus tell us to do that if He didn't want us to do that? Or if it would be a "lack of faith" to preach the Gospel to the lost or to shed light on evil and falsity? Yes, God will save whom He will, but you don't know who they are and aren't. And so as Christians we have an obligation to be out there showing everyone the true Gospel and exposing and rebuking anything that would deter them or would deceive them.

Are we gonna fall short sometimes? Of course we will. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Only Jesus Christ never fell short while here on earth. But we still have to try.

Honestly, why strike out at me like that?

"Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted." (Galatians 6:1)

Look, I'm not trying to attack you, and I certainly hope you weren't trying to attack me.
   
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« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2013, 02:39:17 am »

I'm not attacking anybody, just making an observation of what you have posted. You got a reply for every thing it seems.

Rather contentious. You claim to be born-again for what, a year now? And you are an expert eh? All mature in the gospel. I did approach you with meekness, as that is what scriptrue is, meekness, and so far, you have rejected everything I have shared, and on top of that, you miss the point totally.

Your replies are classic denial. I noticed you have either ignored, or glossed over what I posted.

Like for instance you totally ignored the FACT that by you making that claim, you disrespect believing women. Not a peep about that. Instead you turned it around and are still trying to claim what I already refuted with scripture.

The truth stings, sorry. If you were grounded and settled, it wouldn't, as once settled in your faith, you know what the truth is. You still have some major spiritual growing to do, starting with asking God to ease that pride of yours.

No, I'm not attacking, I'm loving you by bothering to share what I know for a fact is true.

I explained why I'm saying what I am, and you reject it, so where do we go from here?

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How am I using fear, may I ask?

I explained it in my reply! Did you not read it? I even gave scripture to back what I'm saying.  Roll Eyes

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Obviously, I'm being sarcastic here

And that is another reason you should repent! This is no joke. Get rid of that attitude and get serious! I'm not playing games here, I'm dead serious. If I didn't care about you I wouldn't say a word to you.

Being so young in the faith is part of your problem. I've seen it SO many times over the years. Some new believer thinks they got it all figured out, and are on fire to share it with everybody. Suddenly they think they are expert in the gospel, yet like you, have overlooked the "first principles of the oracles of God".

I've been doing this for many years now, and have read just about it all from people. And yes, I've spent plenty of time in "secular "message boards". SO what? Who cares what the unbelieving say? Are you that thin skinned that you get your feelings hurt because somebody tells you your wrong? Wow. Talk about sensitive. Instead of whining about it, you should be rejoicing that your being, in your mind, "persecuted".

THIS is how you should be reacting, but your not...

"Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." Mark 5:11 (KJB)

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in the sense that you have judged a matter before you heard it

Really? You posted it in your own words! So I replied. I read what you have posted. I have judged what you posted, saw error and commented about it. Don't go trying to spin this around. If you reject what I have said, that is on you. No skin off my back. Plenty will reject what I say, just as Jesus says.

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Why would Jesus tell us to do that if He didn't want us to do that? Or if it would be a "lack of faith" to preach the Gospel to the lost or to shed light on evil and falsity? Yes, God will save whom He will, but you don't know who they are and aren't. And so as Christians we have an obligation to be out there showing everyone the true Gospel and exposing and rebuking anything that would deter them or would deceive them.

Have you read anything I posted? When have I said people should not preach the gospel? Now your grasping!

What you are not wanting to see is that I just did to you what you just said people should do! I exposed and rebuked what you posted. And now your offended? My apologies for offending you, but I won't apologize for preaching the gospel, and that is what I have done, you rejected it, I'm moving on.

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It also feels like you're saying we don't really need to do anything at all.

That is just silly. I've said no such thing.

Look, ignore what my words say, and just read the bible, okay? It will sink in eventually.

"Peace be to the brethren..."
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« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2013, 05:55:11 am »



1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

If you look around today at the way the media portrays the Lord Jesus, they have always portrayed him as effeminate. All the pics we see of him is him as effeminate, as he is always portrayed, in a field, surrounded by flowers and lambs and hippies is effeminate.

Webster 1828

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effeminate
EFFEM'INATE, a. [L. effoeminatus, from effoeminor, to grow or make womanish, from foemina, a woman. See Woman.]


1. Having the qualities of the female sex; soft or delicate to an unmanly degree; tender; womanish; voluptuous.

The king, by his voluptuous life and mean marriage, became effeminate, and less sensible of honor.

2. Womanish; weak; resembling the practice or qualities of the sex; as an effeminate peace; an effeminate life.

3. Womanlike, tender, in a sense not reproachful.
EFFEM'INATE, v.t. To make womanish; to unman; to weaken; as to effeminate children.

EFFEM'INATE, v.i. To grow womanish or weak; to melt into weakness.


In a slothful peace courage will effeminate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
effeminately
EFFEM'INATELY, adv. In a womanish manner; weakly; softly.


1. By means of a woman; as effeminately vanquished.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
effeminateness
EFFEM'INATENESS, n. Unmanlike softness.
 

This isn’t Jesus. He was a big man, his trade was a carpenter, he wasn’t this weak woman looking thing that is everywhere today. Just look at the leading male actors of the world today. They aren’t MEN they are effeminate men. This is an important issue that started in the 60's really big time, Jesus had long hair why cant I. Look at Jesus he looks like a wimpy girl man, why can’t I. He has none of those qualities, he was a man.

He chased the money exchangers out of the Temple, he over turned the tables and beat them with wips, and in my opinion he did it more than once. A wimpy womanish man would have got beaten by the money exchangers henchman. I’m quite sure Jesus could handle his own. But in today’s deceptional world we are given over to the belief that to be a man is wrong. We have to be soft, wimpy let the woman lead. This is all counter to the teaching of the Bible. So it is important to what Jesus looked like.

He wasn’t a white, blue eyed, long haired, womanish hippy that spoke like a girl. He is a big man of color, with calloused hands, able to whip the evil doers out of his Father’s House.

So it is important that we recognize and acknowledge just Who JESUS is.
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« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2013, 07:37:28 am »

^^ And it all started with Wescott and Hort in the 1800's using the corrupt, Alexandrian texts - ultimately critical passages of scripture, in particular, were watered down that ended up feminizing these newer versions. So no wonder why the modern-day church system is in the poor state they are in. From what I understand too, Wescott and Hort admitted to having a "feminine" side.

Yes, other factors have come into play like the feminist movement in the 70's, sexual revolution movement in the 60's, rock music in the 50's, etc - but ultimately it all starts with the church...judgment must begin at the house of the Lord.
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« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2013, 12:41:00 am »

I'm not attacking anybody, just making an observation of what you have posted. You got a reply for every thing it seems.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Peter 3:15)

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Rather contentious. You claim to be born-again for what, a year now? And you are an expert eh? All mature in the gospel. I did approach you with meekness, as that is what scriptrue is, meekness, and so far, you have rejected everything I have shared, and on top of that, you miss the point totally.

What happened to this?

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I never said they are not saved! "Judge not..."

Like I said, you've judged a matter before you've heard it.

1) I've been saved since early 2009. That means almost 5 years, not 1.

2) When did I say I was an expert on anything? The only expert in the Word is God.

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Your replies are classic denial. I noticed you have either ignored, or glossed over what I posted.

The very thing you're accusing me of is what you've done. You've quoted only bits of my posts and answered even less of them. I honestly do try to answer everything that a person responds to me with.

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Like for instance you totally ignored the FACT that by you making that claim, you disrespect believing women. Not a peep about that. Instead you turned it around and are still trying to claim what I already refuted with scripture.

How did I "disrespect" Christian women? I made a comparison. To say that God doesn't care at all what we look like would be like saying a saved woman can dress that way and it doesn't matter because God doesn't care. The point was to show that God DOES care. Now does God care if you wear a suit and tie or a polo and khakis all the time? I don't believe so. I'm not a legalist. But God wants men to look like men and women to look like women. And God wants us to be modest in our appearance and dress. If He didn't, Paul would not have mentioned it in God's own Word. Now does that make a saved woman unsaved? No. But I do believe it grieves the Holy Spirit that lives inside her.

The same for a man with long hair. It says in the Bible that a man with long hair is a shame, and if he prays with a covering (long hair), he dishonors his head.

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The truth stings, sorry. If you were grounded and settled, it wouldn't, as once settled in your faith, you know what the truth is. You still have some major spiritual growing to do, starting with asking God to ease that pride of yours.

No, I'm not attacking, I'm loving you by bothering to share what I know for a fact is true.

The truth does sting, but what you call truth is just accusing somebody of something with a very small handful of old posts to go by. Again, you've never met me, nor do you know anything about my walk with Christ. To make a blanket accusation like that without any true knowledge of me or my character is quite offensive.

I don't have everything figured out. I'm fallible. I'm a sinner. That's why I need Jesus. I need a Saviour. Do I get prideful sometimes? Of course, we all do. But we realize we've sinned afterward, and learn from them.

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I explained it in my reply! Did you not read it? I even gave scripture to back what I'm saying.  Roll Eyes

This is what you said:

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Your using fear just like those who say a person must be armed to "protect their family". The ONLY arming a person needs is the Holy Ghost within, which is the FULL armour of God. Yet people will say, "But what would you do if somebody were to break into your house and kidnap your spouse, etc". THAT is a lack of faith in God to do what He has promised to do, which is to protect us from evil, which people SHOULD be praying for "without ceasing", you know, the "Lord's Prayer". But then a person must actually believe their prayers are heard. Some just go through the motions, like Catholics, but are caught up in the law and have zero faith.

No scripture on how I'm supposedly using fear. Only scripture (later) on appearances. You just say I'm using fear, and then go on a slight rant about people that say they need guns to protect their family. How exactly am I using fear? By using the law? I'm not. I'm quoting from the New Testament. That's where it talks about it being a shame. I'm not trying to spread fear.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

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And that is another reason you should repent! This is no joke. Get rid of that attitude and get serious! I'm not playing games here, I'm dead serious. If I didn't care about you I wouldn't say a word to you.

You can use humor when making a point. Remember Elijah when talking to the priests of Baal:

"And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked." (1 Kings 18:27)

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Being so young in the faith is part of your problem. I've seen it SO many times over the years. Some new believer thinks they got it all figured out, and are on fire to share it with everybody. Suddenly they think they are expert in the gospel, yet like you, have overlooked the "first principles of the oracles of God".

When did I say I had it all figured out? I DON'T. That's why I'm trying to learn. I could very well be wrong about everything. The long hair, the post-trib, the holidays, etc. But if I'm wrong, I want to be PROVEN wrong. With scripture. Not just "Oh, you're confused," or "Oh, you're weak in faith," or whatever else someone might say. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If I'm not wrong, it's not because I'm so smart that I figured it out. It's because it's there in God's Word and God showed it to me. It's not ME that should get the glory. It's God Almighty.

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I've been doing this for many years now, and have read just about it all from people. And yes, I've spent plenty of time in "secular "message boards". SO what? Who cares what the unbelieving say? Are you that thin skinned that you get your feelings hurt because somebody tells you your wrong? Wow. Talk about sensitive. Instead of whining about it, you should be rejoicing that your being, in your mind, "persecuted".

THIS is how you should be reacting, but your not...

"Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." Mark 5:11 (KJB)

I know. I'm trying to get better in that regard. However, I get very upset, not because they attack me, but because they blaspheme God and are on the expressway to hell. Does it bother you that they are? It bothers me. A lot. And that's why I frequent those forums. Online witnessing. You never know what God can use.

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Really? You posted it in your own words! So I replied. I read what you have posted. I have judged what you posted, saw error and commented about it. Don't go trying to spin this around. If you reject what I have said, that is on you. No skin off my back. Plenty will reject what I say, just as Jesus says.

You've gotten most of what you thought you knew about me wrong. I've acknowledged this above.

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Have you read anything I posted? When have I said people should not preach the gospel? Now your grasping!

This is what you said:

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The damage that the RCC has done to you runs deeper than you realize. Your still thinking like a faithless Catholic who thinks they must help God do His job, which is to give the gift of the Holy Ghost (which is Jesus Christ in you) once born-again, which will lead all believers to the truth and direct them to what's right.

What you're saying here is that it's not a Christian's place to "help God do His job." I'm not saying God needs our help in anything. But God commanded us to "help" by witnessing and preaching the Gospel. Do I save someone when they get led to the Lord by my actions? No! It was God working through me!

You also said this:

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God doesn't care what the wicked do, because He doesn't know them. He already knows they are doing evil.

God doesn't care what the wicked do because He doesn't know them? What this is telling me is that you don't think it's important to dwell on the wicked, because they are already doing evil and obviously aren't saved. Whereas God tells us this:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

1) This tells me that God DOES care what the wicked do, because He wants them to repent.

2) How will they come to repentance? Will they just say one day, "You know what? I think I wanna get saved!" Man left to his own devices will defy God in any and every capacity. This is where God uses us to "help" Him lead those souls to Him. The Holy Spirit indwells them and they get saved. Again, not because of me. It's God working through me. But in a sense, we do "help" by obeying His command (even though God is the one doing the saving).

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What you are not wanting to see is that I just did to you what you just said people should do! I exposed and rebuked what you posted. And now your offended? My apologies for offending you, but I won't apologize for preaching the gospel, and that is what I have done, you rejected it, I'm moving on.

You "exposed" my post? How? What was there to expose? Am I a Pharisee over here putting burdens on people that they can't bear? A woman can't grow out her hair? A man can't cut his hair? Yes, there are exceptions to this, I understand that. I'm not a legalist. But I don't see what there is to "expose" in my post. It says it clearly in the New Testament that men should have short hair and women long hair. That's not my opinion.

And to say that God doesn't care at all about our appearance is false, otherwise it would never have come up. I'm not saying we don't have choices in our garb. The poor man in tattered garb is accepted just as much as the rich man in clean new garb. But men and women should look like men and women. There's a reason the restroom signs have a man in pants and a woman in a dress  Cheesy. It's just a foregone conclusion.

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That is just silly. I've said no such thing.

Not in words, but in implications. Read above.

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Look, ignore what my words say, and just read the bible, okay? It will sink in eventually.

You accuse me of having pride... But hey. We're all fallible human beings here. I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. If you wanna say I'm a confused, weak, faithless residual Catholic, that's fine. God knows my heart. I'm not saying I never have issues or sins that I go through. Like I said above, I very much do. I just praise the Lord that He saved me and leads me through them!

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"Peace be to the brethren..."

Amen!
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« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2013, 05:36:21 am »

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But if I'm wrong, I want to be PROVEN wrong. With scripture.

I haven given you scripture, and you still reject what I have said because of pride. Your own words show it.

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You can use humor when making a point

Correct, none of us are perfect. That is why we love our neighbors by "bear ye one another's burdens", however, if you are trying to use humor, or any tactic, to convince somebody or make a point (which is an act of "works" just like churchianity does), you then are trying to do what the Spirit will do if you will just get out of the way and let God do it.

Besides, this is not the time for humor...

"Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep." Luke 6:25 (KJB)


"How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow." Revelation 18:7 (KJB)

31  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32  Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 9:31-33 (KJB)


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I know. I'm trying to get better in that regard. However, I get very upset, not because they attack me, but because they blaspheme God and are on the expressway to hell. Does it bother you that they are? It bothers me. A lot. And that's why I frequent those forums. Online witnessing. You never know what God can use.

Again, I'm judging what you post, and there it is again! The "works" doctrine. I posted that it is the Holy Ghost (which I noticed you used "Holy Spirit", which is commonly used by churchianity, as they don't like using  "Ghost" for some stupid reason, which I think is born out of using false bibles), and you glossed right over it, just like all those churchianity types do when they go out and try to "win souls for Jesus".

The point you are totally missing is that it isn't YOU. It is about the Holy Ghost inside you that does the work.

THAT is why we are to be "let patience have her perfect work". You are trying to do the job of the Spirit. God WILL draw them in due time. HIS time, not on Friday night when a small group of church-goers decide they will spend some time in their "street ministry".

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What you're saying here is that it's not a Christian's place to "help God do His job." I'm not saying God needs our help in anything. But God commanded us to "help" by witnessing and preaching the Gospel. Do I save someone when they get led to the Lord by my actions? No! It was God working through me!

Okay, so what scripture explains that process? Two or three will suffice. True though, it is not our place. God WILL do what He will do, regardless of what we do.

Let me ask you this...Did ANY of the apostles take it upon themselves when with Jesus to go somewhere and try to preach to others? Show me even the smallest evidence they did such. You won't find it, because they didn't do it. The ONLY time they left Jesus and went out was when? When Jesus sent them. Till such time, they did what? Stayed with Jesus every moment, looking to Him and learning, till He ascended.

What did Peter do in the garden? He drew his sword and struck the soldier. Remember when the disciples ask Jesus about raining down fire? What was Jesus' response? They were taking it upon themselves, and not waiting on the Lord. Jesus was being open with them as they needed it, so all they had to do was "follow me", and He WOULD teach them what He said He would, which was to become fishers of men.

You ever went fishing? Think about it, and may God give you understanding. "He that hath an ear..."

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God doesn't care what the wicked do, because He doesn't know them. He already knows they are doing evil.

God doesn't care what the wicked do because He doesn't know them? What this is telling me is that you don't think it's important to dwell on the wicked, because they are already doing evil and obviously aren't saved. Whereas God tells us this:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

1) This tells me that God DOES care what the wicked do, because He wants them to repent.

2) How will they come to repentance? Will they just say one day, "You know what? I think I wanna get saved!" Man left to his own devices will defy God in any and every capacity. This is where God uses us to "help" Him lead those souls to Him. The Holy Spirit indwells them and they get saved. Again, not because of me. It's God working through me. But in a sense, we do "help" by obeying His command (even though God is the one doing the saving).

No, God doesn't know them. It's a fact. Jesus Himself says it...

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23 (KJB)

"Wherefore he saith also in another [psalm], Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Acts 13:35 (KJB)

God has not turned His back on anyone. It is man that has left God.

This is one of the most common examples of the "great deception", how some who think they are saved go running around trying to save people, still caught up in works (abusing the use of the verse "faith without works is dead...), be it food banks, homeless shelters, etc. because they claim it's because the bible says, "Blessed is he that considereth the poor". They are looking on the "outward appearence"(being yet carnal) by doing that when Jesus wasn't talking about that at all. He was talking parables. He wasn't talking literally the physical poor, but the spiritually poor. It's "comparing spiritual with spiritual".

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And to say that God doesn't care at all about our appearance is false, otherwise it would never have come up. I'm not saying we don't have choices in our garb. The poor man in tattered garb is accepted just as much as the rich man in clean new garb. But men and women should look like men and women. There's a reason the restroom signs have a man in pants and a woman in a dress  Cheesy. It's just a foregone conclusion.

It's not false. Read the bible! In the book of Samuel, it clearly says, "my ways are not your ways...", that man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the hearts. Do you remember the parable about the rich man? HELLO!

It is not a "forgone conclusion". That's a pat secular phrase that is a lie. You didn't share the scripture on this because you don't know it, and your fruits just proved it.

Restroom signs are a "tradition of men". We started out naked, and clueless about good and evil. Now we have restrooms because of shame born of that day in the garden.

Yes, we literally need to consider the literal poor of this world, but only so long as they receive the gospel. We are to focus on spiritual things. If they reject Jesus, then we are to dust off our feet and move on, not set up a homeless shelter with tax breaks! Instead, we are to rebuke them and exhort them to repent and believe the gospel. THAT is the work of God that we are to do, the work of an evangelist!

"But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry." 2 Timothy 4:5 (KJB)

This WHOLE debate has NOTHING to do with hair length and halter tops! It's spiritual. But here's the secret...

"Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for [your] food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)" 2 Corinthians 9:10 (KJB)

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matthew 7:20 (KJB)

So don't tell me "you don't know me...". On the contrary, I know you very well, your fruits have shown me what's in your heart...

"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Matthew 12:34 (KJB)

Jesus says it's so, and I believe Him over you any day. Nothing personal, it's just that Jesus says men are liars, and not to be trusted, even brethren ("...they of his own household"). Keep that in mind when looking to men for answers, even me. Look to Jesus. See if Jesus is in their words, and look to see if the scripture is even shared because it is only from His Word that you will grow spiritually. Without the interpretation with scripture of unknown tongues, it's just man's babble.

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." 1 John 5:20 (KJB)

And by the way, you again misunderstand! "it will sink in eventually" was not talking about what I have posted, but reference to His Word.

But I find peace in my heart knowing that if you are in fact truly seeking Jesus, you WILL find Him and His truth, no matter how wrong I am and in spite of my efforts to love my neighbor, as my "righteousness is as filthy rags". Thank you Jesus.

11  For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
12  Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13  And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14  And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.
Jeremiah 29:11-14 (KJB)


"To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some." 1 Corinthians 9:22 (KJB)

"Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things." 2 Timothy 2:7 (KJB)

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« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2013, 02:12:13 pm »

This is getting beyond a discousre in friendly discussion on an issue, and really moving well beyond the scope of Did Jesus have long hair or not. Dont even see how it can be argued, Did Jesus have long hair? NO 
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« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2013, 09:10:44 pm »

It is not even a question to ponder over a graven image.

Exodus 20:4 KJV

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
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« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2013, 05:49:40 am »

It is not even a question to ponder over a graven image.

Exodus 20:4 KJV

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

How are you applying that? Because this could be a really fun discussion if your going the direction i think you are, but that would require q new thread.
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Kilika
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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2013, 03:40:04 am »

"...an idol is nothing"
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« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2013, 11:18:34 am »

That pic at the top of the page that started the debate of long hair on Jesus, is still a rendition / graven  image of the Lord in heaven. Inaccurate, no doubt, and blasphemous as far as I'm concerned. Even words can barely depict the Lord!

Revelation 1:10-17 KJV

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2013, 11:22:08 am »

Revelation 4:1-6 KJV

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2013, 05:02:41 pm »

"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not." Jeremiah 33:3 (KJB)
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« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2017, 10:32:25 pm »

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