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"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:"

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Author Topic: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:"  (Read 442 times)
Kilika
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« on: June 05, 2012, 02:53:57 am »

This one verse I have pondered for a long time, but have yet to feel I really understand what it means. It could be He's referring to others outside of the Middle East region? Or dare I say, other creations?

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd." John 10:16 (KJB)
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2012, 09:17:54 am »

He came to save the Jews; I've heard it could mean the Samaritans or the Gentiles.
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2012, 09:24:22 am »

The lost sheep of Israel?
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2012, 09:48:33 am »

This one verse I have pondered for a long time, but have yet to feel I really understand what it means. It could be He's referring to others outside of the Middle East region? Or dare I say, other creations?


there is only 1 creation, and all of creation was affected by the fall. That is also the great Mormon verse that they use to try to justify their false beliefs.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2012, 09:54:57 am »

He came to save the Jews; I've heard it could mean the Samaritans or the Gentiles.

Matt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?


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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2012, 09:55:36 am »

The lost sheep of Israel?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


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Kilika
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2012, 12:55:38 pm »

there is only 1 creation, and all of creation was affected by the fall. That is also the great Mormon verse that they use to try to justify their false beliefs.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.


Okay, I can agree with it put that way. When it gets down to it, whatever it is that was created, whether we know about it or not, it is part of God's whole creation. Amen.

As for the Mormon usage, that I did not know. I haven't cared to look into their whole extraterrestrial babble.
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Kilika
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2012, 12:58:19 pm »

1   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 
2   But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 
3   To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 
4   And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 
5   And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 
6   This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 
7 ¶ Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 
8   All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 
9   I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 
10   The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly. 
11   I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 
12   But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 
13   The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 
14   I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. 
15   As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 
16   And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. 
17   Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 
18   No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. 
19   There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. 
20   And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? 
21   Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind? 
22 ¶ And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 
23   And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 
24   Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 
25   Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 
26   But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 
27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 
28   And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. 
29   My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. 
30   I and [my] Father are one. 
31 ¶ Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 
32   Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 
33   The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 
34   Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 
35   If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 
36   Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 
37   If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 
38   But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him. 
39   Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, 
40 ¶ And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. 
41   And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. 
42   And many believed on him there. 
John 10 (KJB)
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Kilika
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 01:15:40 pm »

For a better idea of who exactly was present when Jesus said these thigns, we actually need to go back I think to the previous chapter, and even then it it's not real clear who, at times Jews, at times Pharisee are singled out (Jews), then in chapter 10:19 the Jews again as a group, and finally in verse 31 the "the Jews took up stones again...". So we may say that the majority of this dialog is to a group of Jews present, primarily.

Okay, so He's talking to the Jews, so these "other sheep", may well be non-jews. Or He may be talking of the scattered Jews that James mentions, as them coming back to Jerusalem is part of the prophecies.

Now this is an interesting verse...

"Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?" John 7:35 (KJB)

"the dispersed among the Gentiles". Hmm, interesting. That sounds like a Jew that is not acting like a Jew, and living a gentile life in society, with no real regard to their jewery. Jesus was viewed as a Jew, so this suggests they would think He would seek out fellow Jews that live outside Judaism.

Are these dispersed part of the "other sheep"? It looks like that may be who He was talking about. God knows.
Then there are those "...who say they are jews, and are not...".
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 11:27:01 pm »

He was talking to which fold at the time? The anointed - he was telling them they were not the only sheep he had.

Couple of things:


The covenant that God made with Abraham sets out the, long-range purpose of God to bless people out of all nations through the seed of Abraham. The sheepfolds that Jesus spoke of in John the 10th chapter are features within the outworking of God’s purpose revealed in the Abrahamic covenant.


In Revelation 14:1-3:

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

These are referred to as the "Little flock" who gain the heavenly Kingdom. (Luke 12:32) So then he also said: “ And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” (John 10:16)

The “other sheep” are persons who, during these last days, are being gathered within God’s provision for eternal life on earth on the basis of their faith in the sacrificial value of Jesus’ blood. They are the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9, 10, 14, and so they have the prospect of surviving the coming great tribulation.

Rev 7:

9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

They come out of all nations etc... world wide (ALL NATIONS).


14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They make it through the Great Tribulation. They are the earthly survivors.



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Kilika
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2012, 03:37:26 am »

Not sure where that interprettion comes from, but I don't buy it. Makes no sense, based on the context of when it was said, and to whom it was said.

This is the context of "little flock"...(I take the term as a term of endearment)

28   If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith? 
29   And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. 
30   For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 
31   But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. 
32   Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 
33   Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. 
34   For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 
Luke 12:28-34 (KJB)


I also don't think the "other sheep" are the 144k. Not even related as I see it.
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2012, 03:55:57 am »

He was talking to which fold at the time? The anointed - he was telling them they were not the only sheep he had.

Couple of things:


The covenant that God made with Abraham sets out the, long-range purpose of God to bless people out of all nations through the seed of Abraham. The sheepfolds that Jesus spoke of in John the 10th chapter are features within the outworking of God’s purpose revealed in the Abrahamic covenant.


In Revelation 14:1-3:

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

These are referred to as the "Little flock" who gain the heavenly Kingdom. (Luke 12:32) So then he also said: “ And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” (John 10:16)

The “other sheep” are persons who, during these last days, are being gathered within God’s provision for eternal life on earth on the basis of their faith in the sacrificial value of Jesus’ blood. They are the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9, 10, 14, and so they have the prospect of surviving the coming great tribulation.

Rev 7:

9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

They come out of all nations etc... world wide (ALL NATIONS).


14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They make it through the Great Tribulation. They are the earthly survivors.

That is JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES teaching. Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2012, 08:46:20 am »

Not sure where that interprettion comes from, but I don't buy it. Makes no sense, based on the context of when it was said, and to whom it was said.

This is the context of "little flock"...(I take the term as a term of endearment)

28   If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith? 
29   And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. 
30   For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 
31   But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. 
32   Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 
33   Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. 
34   For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 
Luke 12:28-34 (KJB)


I also don't think the "other sheep" are the 144k. Not even related as I see it.

FYI, I have Matthew Henry's commentary - he(like alot of our "influential" bible scholars back in those days), held to the A-Mill escatology, which believes the 144K sealed is symbolic for the Christians.

Just a side note - not that I'm defending these "influential" evangelists in those days like Henry, Wesley, Bunyan, Eliot, Spurgeon, etc, but to be fair to them, they were living in the 17th-18th century days when the prophecies of Israel weren't even closed to starting to being fulfilled(and for that matter too the days of Popery were just getting started). But I will discuss this in its respective thread.

Anyhow, this 144K sealed symblic for Christians came from the A-Mill escatology doctrine, which ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO made up in the 4th century. St. Aug made this doctrine up b/c he thought the Pre-Mill escatology was carnal. Despite this, slowly but surely since the 19th century, Protestant and Baptist churches were slowly but surely buying into this nonsense. Funny how the modern-day church will scoff at Pre-Mill/7 year trib b/c supposedly it was "made up" by John Darby and Tim LaHaye, but en yet they just turn a blind eye to the heresies of St. Augustine while buying into this A-Mill nonsense.

A-Mill also teaches that Satan was already bound up in the pit sometime after Jesus Christ rose to heaven, and the nations were no longer deceived. Obviously, this is pure nonsense as well(just look at the times we are living in, nuff said). Here's the link to the A-Mill heresy exposed...
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,6406.0.html

Here's scripture to debunk the A-Mill view of the 144K sealed.

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8  Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory
.

Rev 7:1  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel
.

As you can see from the Ephesians 1 passage above, Christians have ALREADY BEEN sealed, wheras in the Rev 7:1-4 passage, the sealing of the 144K won't happen UNTIL the time appointed.

So if the 144K really means it's symbolic for Christians, then it doesn't make sense b/c obviously, unconditional security preached throughout the NT does NOT mean we won't get sealed until that appointed time.
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2012, 09:07:42 am »

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
I'm neither a-mill, nor JW; but I don't think it's the same sealing.
As christians we are not sealed with the holy Spirit in the forehead.
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2012, 10:51:33 am »

That is JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES teaching. Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

Yes Mark, I thought everyone knew that and it's actually scriptural teaching not one that just JW's have.
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 11:02:44 am »

Yes, I thought everyone knew that and it's actually scriptural teaching not one that just JW's have.

Its actually not, as there are way more than 144,000 people that will be saved and JW only believe that they are the 144,000 JEWS.  Cheesy funny how there are more than 144000 JW and very few of them are actually Jewish. So sorry but it isnt scriptual at all.
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2012, 11:07:35 am »

Its actually not, as there are way more than 144,000 people that will be saved and JW only believe that they are the 144,000 JEWS.  Cheesy funny how there are more than 144000 JW and very few of them are actually Jewish. So sorry but it isnt scriptual at all.

I'm glad I'm here to dispel misconceptions for you in that case. What you are saying above is clearly extremely wrong.


As you put it way more then 144,000 people will be saved. (all JW's believe this to be true also) - they do not believe that all of the 144,000 are Jews. And this is actually what I was commenting on above

So as you can see you have a lot to learn about JW's as what you have said is completely wrong and inaccurate. Pretty funny indeed. To me it's really sad that people perpetuate such erroneous information without ever really looking in to it.


A. it's just spreading false rumors which I'm sure no Christian want's to do.
B. A person learns nothing and looks foolish.
 
 But now you don't have to because I can answer directly to any question about them and you can get it first hand.
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2012, 11:11:22 am »

I'm glad I'm here to dispel misconceptions for you in that case. What you are saying above is clearly extremely wrong.


As you put it way more then 144,000 people will be saved. (all JW's believe this to be true also) - they do not believe that all of the 144,000 are Jews.

So as you can see you have a lot to learn about JW's as what you have said is completely wrong and inaccurate. Pretty funny indeed.
 

uhm, the text states that. no way around it sorry. 12,000 from each tribe, each tribe of Israel. so, uhm, unless your changing the Word of God, than it is a false teaching.

kjb
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

geneva
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them, which were sealed, and there were sealed an hundreth and foure and fourtie thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2012, 11:19:23 am »

uhm, the text states that. no way around it sorry. 12,000 from each tribe, each tribe of Israel. so, uhm, unless your changing the Word of God, than it is a false teaching.

kjb
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

geneva
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them, which were sealed, and there were sealed an hundreth and foure and fourtie thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

I am a JW my Friend and I can tell you first hand what they believe and don't believe. If you ask me I will gladly tell you and I love sharing with you guys.

JW's believe there are 144,000 of the anointed that are going to be saved. they also believe there are many more that will be saved called "the great crowd" as brought out in Revelation and as it says .. it can't be numbered. I'm sure that scripture is also tempered by the fact that Jesus said that not all would enter into is kingdom. So, JW's do believe there will be more (a lot more) then just 144k saved.

The tribes of Israel don't exist anymore - are you suggesting they will be recreated at some point in time? I know JW's don't feel that way.
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Mark
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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2012, 11:31:20 am »

I am a JW my Friend and I can tell you first hand what they believe and don't believe. If you ask me I will gladly tell you and I love sharing with you guys.

JW's believe there are 144,000 of the anointed that are going to be saved. they also believe there are many more that will be saved called "the great crowd" as brought out in Revelation and as it says .. it can't be numbered. I'm sure that scripture is also tempered by the fact that Jesus said that not all would enter into is kingdom. So, JW's do believe there will be more (a lot more) then just 144k saved.

The tribes of Israel don't exist anymore - are you suggesting they will be recreated at some point in time? I know JW's don't feel that way.

Quote
The Jehovah's Witness organization teaches that not all members of their group can take communion. Only the 144,000 members called the "anointed class" have the right to take Communion and they are the only ones who go to heaven.1 In fact, the 144,000 "anointed class" within the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones who are "born again."

The Watchtower, Feb. 15th, 1985, p. 13

woops...

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The tribes of Israel don't exist anymore

Really? Who said this?

Jas 1:1 Iames a seruant of God, and of the Lorde Iesus Christ, to the twelue Tribes, which are scattered abroade, salutation.

woops...

uhm, your believing and posting false doctrine.
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Kilika
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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2012, 02:33:05 pm »

And you wonder why I get testy with you Charrington. Even though I had forgotten even if you have said in the past your affiliations, God was still showing me your doctine you preach just ain't right!

I'm done with you. You've been shown time and again, now I'd prefer you repent or go away frankly, as I don't appreciate the deceptive nature of the way you tiptoe around, not disclosing your real ungodly beliefs.

You cannot hide it. The Spirit WILL reveal the frauds in the house, and you've been exposed, again, or still, as a fraud.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 02:46:43 pm by Kilika » Report Spam   Logged
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