What is "works"?

[Psalm 51:17]

The reason why I'm starting this discussion here b/c this heretical doctrine of "works" salvation can be INCREDIBLY subtle - like ice cream, it comes in many, many different flavors(but it's all one and the same - poor for your health).

Just got a pm over at PPF from a brethren warning about a "Christian believer"(and a "KJV believer" to boot) over how he's been subtlely promoting works doctrine. I myself has had many discussions and interactions with this guy in numerous threads, while others have been pretty quick to point out his oozing in of "works" salvation(although I'll admit I have overlooked pretty badly).

With all the heretical doctrines oozing into the modern-day church, it seems like the "works" one has been the most subtle - while these "churches" may say we're saved by grace through faith in Jesus alone, they end up oozing in alot of this works nonsense afterwards. You have no idea over the junk I've heard for many years - tithing is one, it's mandantory for Christians to have a *pure heart* and to do this or that and to do not this or that is another, the list goes on.

Can we discuss some scriptures over how to point out this heresy? Also, to add to this, what really concerns me is that while the pews are being thrown this, it's these 99% "pastors", "deacons", and denominational leaders that end up acting wicked and having no love for the sheep, while the pews are expected to act as "model Christians".

[Mark]

who's the guy?

Anyway, works salvation is something you have to do in order to pay off your sins. Like in the Sikh religion, they have to wear that silly sliver band. If you don't than you failed. Or as in ancient Israel, you had to make a sacrifice for your sins, if you didn't you failed.

People say there are works in Christianity, as James talks of works, but the works he talks about comes AFTER salvation. Or being baptized is a work, yet that too also comes AFTER salvation. There are no works, just belief and acceptance, than to just obey.

[PeanutGallery]

Saved without works of the law
Rom 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 9:32  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Saved unto good works
Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
James 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
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We are saved by faith in Christ alone; once saved, the holy Spirit works in our lives to produce fruit/works.

No fruit demands a deeper look into one's faith.

2Cor 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Titus 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
2Pet 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pet 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pet 1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[Mark]

I looked that over, that is a charismatic teaching.

[Mark]

Which are you referring to, I'm confused a bit - PG's post above, or what's said in the OP("works")

oh, sorry, the PPF thread. The way he is talking it sounds just like some charismatic teachings i have heard. Wonder when he gets the fire? you should ask him. 

[Psalm 51:17]

I looked that over, that is a charismatic teaching.

Not surprising - didn't know it, but thank you for pointing that out. It's not surprising b/c charismaticism is rooted out of occultism, as are these false perverted bible versions 99% of churches in America use today. These false perverted versions lean works-based salvation, as does the modern-day church in America. And churches in America have pretty much embraced charismatics like Bill Bright and others in the NAR.

The One World Universal Church system is nigh...

[Psalm 51:17]

oh, sorry, the PPF thread. They way he is talking it sounds just like some charismatic teachings i have heard. Wonder when he gets the fire? you should ask him. 

OK thanks! Like said, it was very subtle b/c it was one of those "quiet slip ins"(while the rest of the post seemed ok doctrinally).

[Kilika]

Another verse that shows us that it is not about works. Notice the part, "...not of yourselves...".

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8 (KJB)

[Psalm 51:17]

Thank you everyone for your responses...

Having grown up in the Churchianity environment, especially the SBC environment, you have no idea how alot of their sermons are directed at SELF.

Here's one example - years ago one time, I heard an SBC preacher give a sermon saying how we have obstacles in our life, and unless we endure in the faith and do this or that, etc, etc, those obstacles will *not* be removed. And then he used(and twisted) bible verses to back up what he was saying.

You see the heresy here? Doesn't this guy realize that Jesus Christ removed ALL obstacles at THE CROSS? The sermon he gave was nothing more than Carl Jung-ian/self-help philosophy. And other pastors I've encountered have used their churches to do just that - brainwash everyone into thinking that unless we be pure in heart, do this and that, endure this and that, etc, we're not going to have an easy and prosperous life on this earth. Didn't Isaiah say our own righteousnesses are like filthy rags?

Well, that's Churchianity right there for you - and for that matter too that's how the church "leadership" tries to gain control over their flocks.(ie-the flock has also been brainwashed to think that we shouldn't "judge" the pastors and deacons either)

1Pe 5:1  The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2  Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3  Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4  And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.