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Water Baptism: Why? How? When?

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Author Topic: Water Baptism: Why? How? When?  (Read 917 times)
lesjude
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« on: July 17, 2012, 11:32:42 am »

The confusion about water baptism comes from Matt. 28:19. However there should not be any. The scripture is clear:
Colossians 3:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost..
 
Acts 19:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
   
There is a God given power to resist sin that you receive BY FAITH when you are baptized in Jesus' name by immersion, sometimes referred to as apostolic baptism. Because if you don't know this you can be baptized till you are 'pruny" and it will make no difference! You can only believe for what you know about. Circumcision and baptism are equivalent. Col 12:11-14. In Joshua 5 he circumcised them before the wars to take the land so they were in covenant and could win. It is the same for baptism for us when engaging in spiritual warfare. There will be open doors for the devil to oppress and stop us. Mark 16:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”

I am not teaching water baptism to be saved. One is saved when he receives Christ. Water baptism in Jesus name of a person old enough to understand is the first act of obedience in the walk of salvation. Infant baptism is not in the Bible.

 Here is the  power over sin that few understand so they do not receive. Remember it is BY FAITH and if you do not know you cannot receive and believe. It is in Romans chapter 6, dead to sin, alive to Christ! This gives you supernatural power to resist sin, but only if you resist the sinful thoughts in Jesus' name the devil puts in your head to convince you that you are still a sinner. Please read all of Romans 6:1-14
There are big denominations that have not received this and as a result teach that the Christian has two natures, sinful and regenerate. This is nowhere taught in the Bible!
  I strongly recommend that you be baptized again. Any believer can do this, even yourself. I have re-baptized several when they realized how important it really is. It is never legalism to do what Jesus says to do, the way He says to do it. He gives grace and protection in the meantime until we see the truth and do it.
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Psalm 51:17
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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2012, 11:47:56 am »

Quote
Here is the  power over sin that few understand so they do not receive. Remember it is BY FAITH and if you do not know you cannot receive and believe. It is in Romans chapter 6, dead to sin, alive to Christ! This gives you supernatural power to resist sin, but only if you resist the sinful thoughts in Jesus' name the devil puts in your head to convince you that you are still a sinner.

Col 1:12  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


1Jn 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
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Kilika
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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2012, 02:19:35 pm »

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This gives you supernatural power to resist sin

Really? What power is that? How does one get this "power"?
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tennis shoe
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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2012, 03:06:57 pm »

I strongly recommend that you be baptized again. Any believer can do this, even yourself. I have re-baptized several when they realized how important it really is.

That’s not the way it worked with me.

I was baptized in a Baptist church when I was a preteen. I remember the pastor fully explaining what it meant, and I fully believed that Christ wanted me to do this.

Then there was a period of time when I slipped away from all churches, mostly fueled by disagreement. My life was pretty miserable but I developed a martyr complex to deal with it. Didn’t have to tell me I was sinning. I knew this but didn’t know how to escape it. The result of the baptism remained secretly buried deep in my heart though, like a little pilot light.

When He clearly called me back to a church, the members there thought I needed to be re-baptized. I must admit the compulsion to do this was very strong. Some suggested that the first time didn’t “take”. But somehow, I figured that to simply sin, then get baptized, then sin, then get baptized would cheapen the meaning of being baptized. Same as the catholic version of sin-confess-sin-confess. I would never get “better”.

Until….

One day, I was talking to one of the ladies in the church office about this re-baptism idea and she said something like “You know, even if you didn’t fully know what it meant, He did.”

I felt relief from doubt, knowing that it counted and it was permanent.
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PeanutGallery
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2012, 04:26:02 pm »

The confusion about water baptism comes from Matt. 28:19.
What part of Matt 28:19 is confusing to you?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:



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I strongly recommend that you be baptized again.
This sounds like the Modalism's Jesus Only Movement.
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Kilika
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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2012, 05:50:36 pm »

"I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." Mark 1:8 (KJB)
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lesjude
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2012, 06:01:35 pm »

That’s not the way it worked with me.

I was baptized in a Baptist church when I was a preteen. I remember the pastor fully explaining what it meant, and I fully believed that Christ wanted me to do this.

Then there was a period of time when I slipped away from all churches, mostly fueled by disagreement. My life was pretty miserable but I developed a martyr complex to deal with it. Didn’t have to tell me I was sinning. I knew this but didn’t know how to escape it. The result of the baptism remained secretly buried deep in my heart though, like a little pilot light.

When He clearly called me back to a church, the members there thought I needed to be re-baptized. I must admit the compulsion to do this was very strong. Some suggested that the first time didn’t “take”. But somehow, I figured that to simply sin, then get baptized, then sin, then get baptized would cheapen the meaning of being baptized. Same as the catholic version of sin-confess-sin-confess. I would never get “better”.

Until….

One day, I was talking to one of the ladies in the church office about this re-baptism idea and she said something like “You know, even if you didn’t fully know what it meant, He did.”

I felt relief from doubt, knowing that it counted and it was permanent.
Do it again in Jesus' name. And then ask for Acts 2:4.
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2012, 06:08:10 pm »

"I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." Mark 1:8 (KJB)
Acts 1:8
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me[a] in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Acts 2:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:38

King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:44-46

King James Version (KJV)

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Acts 19:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2012, 06:28:03 pm »

Rom 3:3  For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4  God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2012, 07:50:54 pm »

Do it again in Jesus' name.

No thanks. Already explained why.

Quote
And then ask for Acts 2:4.

Did ask for tongues and received it. For me, this is no longer for public spectacle. I reserve tongues for private use. I’m also aware of a separate spirit of false tongues running around out there.

God has shown me that character comes first. All the gifts in the world WILL result in damage or destruction without the proper character. There’s an awful lot of pseudochrist spirits posing as the Holy Spirit that have infiltrated the churches. Jesus Himself said that this would happen, so here we are. I’m no longer impressed with supernatural manifestations. But I am more interested in finding the source of them. It’s either one or the other.
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lesjude
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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2012, 08:33:25 pm »

Really? What power is that? How does one get this "power"?
It is by faith in what Romans 6:1-14 and Romans 8:1 says about you as a result of obedience to water baptism. Water baptism is much more than a ritual. By faith the believer is dead to sin and alive to Christ. He does not have 2 natures, one sinful and one saved.
Romans 6:1-14

King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.


11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
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lesjude
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2012, 08:44:01 pm »

No thanks. Already explained why.

Quote
Did ask for tongues and received it. For me, this is no longer for public spectacle. I reserve tongues for private use. I’m also aware of a separate spirit of false tongues running around out there.
It never was for that purpose. Yes, there are a lot of false spirits.
Quote
God has shown me that character comes first. All the gifts in the world WILL result in damage or destruction without the proper character. There’s an awful lot of pseudochrist spirits posing as the Holy Spirit that have infiltrated the churches. Jesus Himself said that this would happen, so here we are. I’m no longer impressed with supernatural manifestations. But I am more interested in finding the source of them. It’s either one or the other.
Agreed.
Mark 16:17-18 is not the gifts but those who believe will heal and cast out demons. Here is how the Bible says character is developed:
 Romans 12:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 5:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Approved character lives Matthew 5, 6, and 7 before God and the world.
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2012, 10:33:18 pm »

There’s also this rather large problem.

Mt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23   And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Christ does not deny that they did indeed do these things in his name. The “many” in verse 22 shows that there will be a widespread, critical error. A lot of people will fall into this snare. I submit that this error is happening now. The miracles, signs, and wonders camp is a very dangerous place to be. Especially in light of the false miracles, signs, and wonders both documented 2000 years ago and happening today. These verses also clearly show me that even if I was to do the things that Christ did by using his name, it means nothing in the end if I am doing it even slightly out of step with Him.
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Kilika
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« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2012, 03:42:02 am »

It is by faith in what Romans 6:1-14 and Romans 8:1 says about you as a result of obedience to water baptism. Water baptism is much more than a ritual. By faith the believer is dead to sin and alive to Christ. He does not have 2 natures, one sinful and one saved.
Romans 6:1-14

King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.


11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Completely wrong answer.

Your not giving credit where it is due!

Where does the "power" come from? What is that power?

(Be warned that your not doing well at all! Your answers are not correct for the most part as your just repeating churchianity junk. Your real close to being asked to find another message board to hang out in.)

If you cannot tell me where the "power" comes from, then you ain't born-again, and are just another mislead person who will be asking Jesus in that day, "Lord, did we not prophecy in thy name...?"
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lesjude
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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2012, 08:15:55 am »

There’s also this rather large problem.

Mt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23   And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Christ does not deny that they did indeed do these things in his name. The “many” in verse 22 shows that there will be a widespread, critical error. A lot of people will fall into this snare. I submit that this error is happening now. The miracles, signs, and wonders camp is a very dangerous place to be. Especially in light of the false miracles, signs, and wonders both documented 2000 years ago and happening today. These verses also clearly show me that even if I was to do the things that Christ did by using his name, it means nothing in the end if I am doing it even slightly out of step with Him.


 Here is how the Bible says character is developed and the assurance that a disciple is in "step" with Jesus. You will note that the context of verse 22 is those that practice lawlessness AND do the signs. The "lawlessness" refers to His teaching in Matthew 5, 6, and 7. I live it by grace through faith and the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4) He gave us this power to live The Sermon On the Mount AND to do what Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8 say. He expects disciples to do both. You will discovery if you have Christ's character when you see someone that is obviously hurt, sick or has other issues you will want to bring healing, deliverance, provision or  any other need by doing what Jesus did. It will be a normal reaction.  See Matthew 25:14-30 especially verses 24-30. By "talents" Jesus is NOT referring to singing in the choir.
 Romans 12:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 5:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Approved character lives Matthew 5, 6, and 7 before God and the world.
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lesjude
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« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2012, 08:20:05 am »

Completely wrong answer.

Your not giving credit where it is due!

Where does the "power" come from? What is that power?

(Be warned that your not doing well at all! Your answers are not correct for the most part as your just repeating churchianity junk. Your real close to being asked to find another message board to hang out in.)

If you cannot tell me where the "power" comes from, then you ain't born-again, and are just another mislead person who will be asking Jesus in that day, "Lord, did we not prophecy in thy name...?"
The "power" you refer to comes from Jesus of course but it is received by grace through faith and then acted on even in negative circumstances when it appears no victory over the circumstances is possible. This is the point of the scripture I gave.
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Kilika
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« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2012, 02:05:05 pm »

Sorry, your still not saying the correct answer. Yes, from Jesus comes power, but in what form?

Forgive me for being insistant, but Jesus tells us to try the spirits whether they are of God. There is a specific reason I ask, but I cannot say at this time why or else I will be giving you the answer.

"Search the scriptures..."
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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2012, 02:11:25 pm »

Luk 2:41  Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
Luk 2:42  And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
Luk 2:43  And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
Luk 2:44  But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
Luk 2:45  And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
Luk 2:46  And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
Luk 2:47  And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2012, 10:35:45 pm »

Sorry, your still not saying the correct answer. Yes, from Jesus comes power, but in what form?

Forgive me for being insistant, but Jesus tells us to try the spirits whether they are of God. There is a specific reason I ask, but I cannot say at this time why or else I will be giving you the answer.

"Search the scriptures..."
Acts 1:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
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Kilika
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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2012, 04:55:31 am »

So we see that the power is the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, and it is not our own ability, which would be of works. It is of the Spirit in us, literally Jesus Christ in us, that moves us.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8 (KJB)

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" 2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJB)

25   These things have I spoken unto you, being [yet] present with you. 
26   But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 
27   Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
John 14:25-27 (KJB)


"And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." Luke 24:49 (KJB)
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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2012, 10:23:49 am »

So we see that the power is the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, and it is not our own ability, which would be of works. It is of the Spirit in us, literally Jesus Christ in us, that moves us.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8 (KJB)

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" 2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJB)

25   These things have I spoken unto you, being [yet] present with you. 
26   But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 
27   Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
John 14:25-27 (KJB)


"And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." Luke 24:49 (KJB)
Here is the INITIAL evidence that one has the infilling of that Holy Spirit power as Jesus promised to those who would ask and receive by faith:
John 14:15-18

King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Acts 1:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Here is the initial evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 2:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Again:Acts 2:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 10:44-46

King James Version (KJV)

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

You also note please that the apostles water baptized by immersion in Jesus' name, not in the name of the father, son and Holy Ghost.
I do believe in ONE God eternally manifesting as three spirits: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost who were without beginning and have no end.
Matthew 3:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And Jesus (ONE: THE SON), when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God (TWO: THE HOLY GHOST) descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven,(THREE: THE FATHER) saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
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« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2012, 03:15:29 pm »

and just what is tongues? for it sure isnt some jibberish that goes on in the modern benny hinn movement. So please explain to me just what it is you are pushing here?
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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2012, 03:53:01 pm »

and just what is tongues? for it sure isnt some jibberish that goes on in the modern benny hinn movement. So please explain to me just what it is you are pushing here?

1.      Personal Ministry in Tongues for Oneself.
 The importance of personal ministry oneself through prayer in the spirit cannot be overemphasized, inasmuch as God has, by this means, provided us with the supernatural ability to minister to ourselves spiritually as often as we desire. Through praying in tongues the believer is able to minister divine strength and rest to his own spirit, increase his faith, and intercede in spirit on his own behalf.

 
actually, there are three specific areas in which prayer in the spirit enables the charismatic believer to minister to him­self.
(1) Self-edification.
"He_that_ speaks in a tongue jusifies himself" (1 Cor. 14:4).
Self-edification is an essential ministry which God has provided for the Spirit-filled Christian through his ability to pray in the spirit. Certainly the Christian can also be edi­fied through reading God's Word and by prayer with the understanding, but the personal ministry in tongues has been ordained by God to accomplish a work in us spiritually which is impossible by any other means. Some Christians without the charismatic experience, and because of erro­neous teaching on the subject, will occasionally raise the objection that Paul seems to emphasize the value of pro­phecy over speaking in tongues in 1 Corinthians 14. On the contrary, with regard to personal ministry to oneself, the Scriptures show that speaking in tongues is more essential to the believer's edification than prophecy (I Cor.14:2, 4, 14-15, 18; Jude 20). It is only with reference to our ministry to the church that the Apostle stresses the obvious advantage of prophesying over speaking with uninterpreted tongues, in order that the Body of Christ may understand what is be­ing said by the Spirit (note 14:4-5, 19, 28, "in the church"). However, the Apostle carefully points out that if the tongues which are spoken are also interpreted, then tongues are equivalent to prophecy and serve the same function (14:5, 13, 27). Thus, what the Scriptures clearly show, as any un­prejudiced reader can see, is that through prophecy the be­liever edifies the church, and through tongues he edifies himself. With regard to personal ministry to oneself, pray­ing in the spirit is the divinely ordained means by which the believer edifies himself.
Paul indicates in 1 Corinthians 14:2, 4, 14-15 that when

 he prayed in tongues that it was in his spirit not in   his
intellect, which prayed to God. The Lord know that just as
your body needs food to be strengthened, and your mind
needs to be encouraged by the Word and prayer so to your
spirit needs to be edified or strengthened by praying in the
spirit each day. This is precisely what Spirit filled Christians are
  admonished to do in Jude 20. You are admonished                     to pray in the spirit regularly, for in so doing God states
that you are "building up yourself on your in on your most holy faith praying in the Holy Ghost."
Self-edification through praying in tongues  is a necessary
and important ministry which God has provided for the
believer that praying with the understanding and the intellect
cannot give. It is the most direct and effective means by the inner man is strengthened spiritually, and the believer's faith is built up to enable him to endure trial and   resist Satan, overcome temptation, and faithfully fulfill his  in place in the Body of Christ. The Scriptures show show  that   though "faith cometh by hearing the word" (Rom 10:17 it is strengthened and increased by "praying in  "the Holy Ghost"   (Jude 20;  1  Cor.  14:4).  Regular  and  consistent prayer in the spirit is the primary means by which the deep, inward work of the Holy Spirit is effected in the believer. Without question many of the trials   which have overwhelmed you, and the temptations which you have failed to resist successfully, as well as the fear, worry, anxiety  which have oppressed you, are directly related to your neglect of regular, daily prayer in the spirit. If,therefore,you desire to be strong in the faith and walk in  victory over every trial and adverse circumstance, then avail yourself of the supernatural means by which God has made this   possible, for "he that speaketh in a tongue edifies himself
The term unknown does not occur in the original but was added   
by the translators. These are true languages (although unknown to the
speaker) which the Spirit-filled believer  speaks supernaturally, and is recognizable as such by those who speak any of these particular languages or tongues, as Acts 2:6, 11; and 10:46 clearly indicate.

(2) Spiritual Rest.
"With stammering lips and another tongue will he speak... This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing" (Isa. 28:11-12).
God has provided a spiritual rest for the believer which cannot be obtained by any means other than praying in the spirit. The Apostle Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 that the "rest" of which God speaks in Isaiah 28:11-12 is with reference to speaking in tongues. When the Spirit-filled believer faces trial and adversity — when he is tempted to doubt and worry — when he is tempted tb panic during some crisis or emergency — when problems seem as if they are about to overwhelm him — when, in his warfare with the forces of darkness, he finds himself weary or discouraged — he can minister to himself through the spirit and enter into a place of spiritual rest and victory which is unknown to those without the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Through the baptism in the Spirit God has provided a su­pernatural rest for the believer. The contemporary Church's neglect of the experience of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and its unwarranted opposition to speaking in tongues, will help to explain why the offices of so many pastors and psy­chiatrists are filled with Christians who are desperately crying out for help with serious problems, or for deliverance from fears, worries, and anxieties, as well as from habits, addictions, and obsessions of every kind. Innumerable Chris­tians today find themselves spiritually unfruitful, confused, and frustrated. Why is this? It is the result of the sin of the neglect of the Holy Spirit. The Church today has made the Blessed Comforter a "doctrine" in its creed, instead of a personal experience, which Christ insisted the believer must receive if he is to be spiritually strong and fruitful, and vic­torious over the powers of darkness (Jn. 14:12-26; Acts 1: 4-8; 2:1-4; Mk. 16:16-18; 1 Cor. 12; 14).

Devotional ministry to God

"for he that speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but unto God." : for no man understands Him but in the spirit He speaks mysteries."  1Cor 14:2

 Did you know that God desires for you to minister to Him?  In what manner? By adoration, thanksgiving, and praise. He knows the limitations of our finite minds to praise and worship Him  effectively with the intellect; thus, He has provided us with supernatural utterance in the spirit. There is no true Christian who has not felt his inadequacy and helplessness many times to express the praise, thanksgiv­ing, and adoration which well up within his heart. How many times have you struggled, trying to express with your mlellect what you feel in your heart toward the Lord, usual­ly giving up the effort after a while. Sometimes you lament, "Lord, you see what is in my heart, but there just aren't adequate words to express my love and gratitude." This will help  explain why He has given us, through the baptism in (he Holy Spirit, the supernatural ability to worship Him in the spirit by praying in tongues. No matter how much we may try to communicate our love, gratitude, and praise to God with the intellect, we find that it is impossible for us to express the soul's deepest feelings and emotions in this manner. This is the significance of Wesley's plea in his immortal hymn, "0 for a Thousand Tongues to Sing My Great Redeemer's Praise." Wesley had experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit (as did Luther, Moody, Finney, R. A. Torrey all the other great spiritual leaders in history), and he refers in his hymn, not to a thousand voices in a church choir singing praises to God, but he is expressing his own  desire for such an anointing by the Spirit that he can sing praises in a thousand new tongues.

3. Ministry on Behalf of Others.
Why speak in tongues? Because, in the third place this means we are able to fulfill our responsibility of  ministry to others through  prayer in the  spirit.   Pray in tongues is not, as those without the baptism  sometime, suppose, merely some dubious exercise for personal edification, but it is indispensable if the believer is to be effective in his ministry on behalf of the Body of Christ, as well as to  the unsaved. This ministry includes intercession, edification and occasionally supernatural witness.

 
(1) Spiritual Intercession.
"Praying  always   with   all   prayer   in
the  spirit,  and  watching  thereunto   with all poerserverance
  and   supplication   for   all   the saints. Eph, 6:18
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« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2012, 04:01:57 pm »

Here is the ONLY example of just what speaking in tongues is. Period. If this isnt it, than you arent doing it.

Act 2:1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 
Act 2:2   And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 
Act 2:3   And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 
Act 2:4   And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 
Act 2:5  And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 
Act 2:6   Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 
Act 2:7   And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 
Act 2:8   And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 


That is it, nothing else. The ONLY way you would ever know you were speaking in tongues is if someone told you. And ALL of the Corithians passages is about foreign languages. If a person was speaking in tongues, why would you need a translator? you wouldnt as EVERY one would understand in their own language. You only need a translator when you are speaking to a group and not using their tongue.
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« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2012, 04:03:17 pm »

please do not promote new-age pagan rituals here.
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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2012, 04:23:33 pm »

Here is the ONLY example of just what speaking in tongues is. Period. If this isnt it, than you arent doing it.

Act 2:1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 
Act 2:2   And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 
Act 2:3   And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 
Act 2:4   And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 
Act 2:5  And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 
Act 2:6   Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 
Act 2:7   And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 
Act 2:8   And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 


That is it, nothing else. The ONLY way you would ever know you were speaking in tongues is if someone told you. And ALL of the Corithians passages is about foreign languages. If a person was speaking in tongues, why would you need a translator? you wouldnt as EVERY one would understand in their own language. You only need a translator when you are speaking to a group and not using their tongue.
A message in tongues which is for the edification of the whole assembly is what Paul is saying needs an interpretation. When one is praying privately for his own edification like Jude 20, ministering to God, and interceding for others no interpretation is needed. It is a language of men or angels that the speaker does not know.
Acts 2:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:4)

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 10:44-46

King James Version (KJV)

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues,
and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Just like Acts 2:4!)

Acts 19:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

1 Corinthians 14:14-17

King James Version (KJV)

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

1 Corinthians 13:1

King James Version (KJV)

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
See, that old song "All You Need Is Love" is wrong after all!
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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2012, 04:28:42 pm »

A message in tongues which is for the edification of the whole assembly is what Paul is saying needs an interpretation. When one is praying privately for his own edification like Jude 20, ministering to God, and interceding for others no interpretation is needed. It is a language of men or angels that the speaker does not know.

No he isnt, what is being said here when the word tongue is used is foreign language. You need an interpreter when speaking or preaching at a church and you do not speak their language. How is anyone going to be edified if they do not know what is being said. That is why we have a very clear picture of just what speaking in tongues is at pentecost. The Bible is very clear on this, if i go to a church in China and speak in tongues, than evey one there will hear it in chinese. No need for an interpreter. Yet if i speak in my native tongue, than there will need to be an interpreter.
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2012, 05:19:48 pm »

No he isnt, what is being said here when the word tongue is used is foreign language. You need an interpreter when speaking or preaching at a church and you do not speak their language. How is anyone going to be edified if they do not know what is being said. That is why we have a very clear picture of just what speaking in tongues is at pentecost. The Bible is very clear on this, if i go to a church in China and speak in tongues, than evey one there will hear it in chinese. No need for an interpreter. Yet if i speak in my native tongue, than there will need to be an interpreter.
Please tell me what Paul means here:
1 Corinthians 14:14-17

King James Version (KJV)

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

1 Corinthians 13:1

King James Version (KJV)

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels[/b], and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
See, that old song "All You Need Is Love" is wrong after all!
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2012, 07:32:05 pm »

Please tell me what Paul means here:
1 Corinthians 14:14-17

King James Version (KJV)

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

1 Corinthians 13:1

King James Version (KJV)

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels[/b], and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
See, that old song "All You Need Is Love" is wrong after all!
You need to pray in unknown tongues without ceasing, otherwise you'd be in disobedience.

1Th 5:17  Pray without ceasing.
1Th 5:18  In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th 5:19  Quench not the Spirit.
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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2012, 04:31:41 am »

Please tell me what Paul means here:
1 Corinthians 14:14-17

King James Version (KJV)

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

1 Corinthians 13:1

King James Version (KJV)

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels[/b], and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
See, that old song "All You Need Is Love" is wrong after all!

As i already said and to which Paul reiterates, it is a foreign language. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful, ya, it will be unfruitful as no one will know what he is saying. Speaking in tongues isnt some magical pagan ritual, well it is and it is something the pagans have been doing for thousands of years and has crept into the charismatic movement. Speaking in tongues works just like it did at Pentecost. The only way any one will know is if someone is there and here you speaking in their native tongue.

What the charismatics preach about and came about in the 1800's is the same thing the pagan temples at Corinth did. Speaking gibberish and proclaiming it spiritual speak. This isnt Biblical at all. Is God the God of confusion? nope. Is there any unknown language? nope. Are you continuing to push pagan rituals on my site? yep.
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