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Killing and the Christian

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Author Topic: Killing and the Christian  (Read 429 times)
lesjude
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« on: July 20, 2012, 10:03:55 pm »

Killing and the Christian
The principle of Mat. 5:38-48 is nonresistance toward all. No killing or wounding or returning evil by a Christian. This is what father God had always intended in the old and new testaments.
There is no evidence in the Bible to indicate that the disciples followed any course but nonresistance even when Paul and the Roman emperors broke into their homes to kill whole families.
Matthew 5:38-48

King James Version (KJV)

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Gen. 4:7-8: Cain made the wrong sacrifice which opened the door to sin of hatred, jealousy and finally killing. The sacrifice Christians are to make is in Romans 12:1-2. When they do not do this and yield to the Holy Spirit training as to what this means they will do what is right in their own sight. This often results in operating in expediency (armed guards in churches, killing in 'just' wars) which is operating on the knowledge of good and evil not the Holy Spirit of Life. Note what Jesus says in Mat. 26:52. The disciples surely had a reason to wound and kill to defend each other and Jesus. Also Rev 13:7-10 The antichrist is killing saints and they are to follow nonresistance.

Genesis 4: 23-24 tells of a killing for a wounding possibly to save his own life. He indicates he realizes this was wrong with the statement he makes about Cain in vs 24.

Genesis 9:6-7 is a clear statement on killing. The exception being capital punishment (Old and New testaments) and the OT wars of God's judgments on nations whose cup of iniquity was full. Acts 17:25-27 speaks of all being one blood. God's heart at this time is that men be saved not killed or injured, especially not by carnal Christians defending themselves or others.

King David is a type of Christ and was called by God a man after His own heart. However, Father God told him he could not build the temple because he had shed much blood on the earth in His sight, even though these were nations under judgment in wars God had directed. See I Chronicles 22:7-8 and I Chronicles 28:3 and 1 Kings 5:3.

What is Jesus' view of "just" wars and physical violence? Luke 9:51-56. The disciples did not know what spirit they were of! They thought they had a "good" and Biblical response (see Elisha).
Luke 9:51-56

King James Version (KJV)

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Christians who either do not have the Holy Spirit or do not submit to His training in this area end up using 'expediency' or OT justifications for their violence which there is none there either.

Every non believer that a Christian kills ends up in the pit which was the point of what Jesus said in Luke 9:55-56. Then after you wound them, or talk to the ones who are left that are not killed, it makes it hard to tell them about the love of the Lord.

Some justify war by saying the US is a Christian nation. There is no such thing. There are nations with the King's citizens in them being salt and light, not acting like the world and serving its Godless systems, or relying on the expediency of armed guards in churches. see Ezra 8:21-23.

At this point some anecdotal evidence is in order. Nate Saint and those with him who died rather than defend themselves or each other is an example. I will say they were told by leadership not to go and may be the reason for no Divine protection.

On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has some good points. After the battle of Gettysburg (the South lost) 100's of rifles were gathered up from the battlefield. Many were double and triple loaded. The reluctance to kill with an individual weapon seemed to be the reason. To cover their reluctance they did not fire but "reloaded". He goes on with more evidence throughout history to support the point, and the ways the military and our society has overcome this.

Also he establishes the killing as one cause of PTSD. His ways to overcome this are junk but his evidence is compelling. This is sowing and reaping for violation of God:s laws. PTSD is overcome by repentance and deliverance. How an airborne ranger and Delta force operator got set free when we had the privilege of ministering deliverance to him is an interesting story.

General S. L. A. Marshall also makes the same point with his unique method of interviewing WW II, Korean War and Vietnam soldiers right after close combat. He interviewed the handful of survivors of Able CO. that hit the Dog Green sector on Omaha Beach. He talked with about 20 men not killed or wounded of over 200. It was the beach that Saving Private Ryan tried to show at the start of the film. He discovered a very high percentage that did not fire their personal weapons in these wars except Vietnam. By then the military had devised training to partially overcome the God given resistance to killing.

In Vietnam one platoon of less than 30 men stood off a force of 200 very determined NVA all night with no artillery and some of the time with no illumination. Near the end, having very little ammo left, knowing they were as good as dead they just all started laughing! Captured NVA later said this really affected their morale. I think the US troops had the resistance to killing removed and the NVA didn't. This platoon was mostly just a regular bunch of draftees that had not even seen "the elephant" yet.

This training is so effective, along with the conditioning to violence that our society provides, that troops will assault immediately when ambushed by a superior well protected force and win! In training the same men thought to themselves, never will I do this! The other force still had that bothersome inhibition.

The US Marines seem to be most open about telling recruits the truth, and perhaps best at it. They tell all their 'boots' that they will make them into trained killers.
Who would Jesus shoot?
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Kilika
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2012, 05:13:21 am »

No, Jesus would not shoot.

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." John 18:36 (KJB)
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lesjude
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2012, 09:57:21 am »

No, Jesus would not shoot.

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." John 18:36 (KJB)
Romans 8:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2012, 10:30:38 am »

Good post.
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tennis shoe
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2012, 12:36:16 pm »

Does this apply to self/family defense?

Lk 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

How do you reconcile these verses?
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lesjude
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2012, 01:16:31 pm »

Does this apply to self/family defense?

Lk 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

How do you reconcile these verses?
Here is what Jesus said next:Luke 22:38

King James Version (KJV)

38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Enough for what is the question? Certainly not enough to defend themselves. It would be "enough" for Jesus to give the disciples another lesson in nonresistance. Here is the lesson:
Matthew 26:51-52

King James Version (KJV)

51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Jesus taught nonresistance, gave practical demonstrations i.e. scripture above and the demoniacs, lived it, and died practicing it.
  The early church understood nonresistance. They never resisted or used violence to even defend themselves or their families from Paul who entered their homes to imprison or have them killed. The same was true when the Roman emperors killed thousands including whole families.
  Yes, it applies to "self/family defense". A believer has all the promises in Psalm 91 which is our divine assurance policy. The believer has been given spiritual weapons to deal with the demons that drive people to rob, kill and destroy. An extreme example would be the violent demon possessed people that Jesus dealt with as a spiritual issue with spiritual weapons. We have the same authority by the power of the Holy Spirit in us. The problem is Christians do not know this and do not use these weapons. They accept the lie of Satan that robbery and violent crimes are not driven by him and his devils so they do not use their authority.  As a result they are as fearful as the rest of the world and resort to weapons often with tragic consequences.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 01:30:21 pm by lesjude » Report Spam   Logged
Mark
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2012, 03:12:33 pm »

also the word being used here for sword, isnt what we today, think of as a sword. This was more of a really big knife used to cut meat.
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Kilika
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2012, 02:10:28 am »

Swords of the day were rather short, as far as swords go. A blade of maybe 24" long, like the Roman gladius...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladius

52   Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 
53   Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 
54   But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Matthew 26:52-54 (KJB)


Jesus makes the point even more clear when He mentions calling for angels. We are talking God here! So what was Peter thinking? That he could somehow helpe Jesus, to protect Him somehow? No, Jesus shows us that's carnal, and not of faith in His Word.

And just what is His Word that we trust, and not our own skills at sword-play?

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16 (KJB)

14   I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 
15   I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 
16   They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 
17   Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 
18   As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 
19   And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 
20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 
21   That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 
22   And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one
John 17:14-22 (KJB)
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