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Literal versus Spiritual

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Author Topic: Literal versus Spiritual  (Read 800 times)
Mark
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« on: December 28, 2012, 04:25:48 am »

here is a prime example, Hoggard says that any and all good things we do, isnt of us, but is the Lord working in us, and that we cannot take credit for ANY good deed that we do.

Midweek Service 12-26-12 with Pastor Mike Hoggard


around the 22 to 24 min mark.

This isnt scripture, the Lord tells us to do this kind of stuff in secret so that only he knows.

This teaching flies in the face of
Colossians 3:17, Matthew 6:1-4.

he also says its ok to celebrate christmas time... Im gonna keep digging, im betting there will be some catholic influence...
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2012, 04:32:25 am »

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

start @ 23:45 in above video

discussion worth having...
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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2012, 05:28:04 am »

This topic came up in another thread. Seeing the differences out there as to how to interpret scripture, a discussion is in order. God willing, through searching the scriptures, we can come to a better understanding of how the Lord wants us to interpret His Word.

The question is...

When reading scripture, which are we to focus on, a literal interpretation, or a spiritual interpretation?

Are there versus that are literally only, and some spiritually only? Are there some that are both literal and spiritual in their meaning?

This applies to so many aspects of life in this fleshly body, it's important that people have a sound understanding of what it is they are reading and believing in.

Are we to literally pluck out our own eye if it offends us?

Are we to literally be baptized in actual water?

"Let God be true"

5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways.
James 1:5-8 (KJB)
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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2012, 05:50:25 am »

Quote
but is the Lord working in us, and that we cannot take credit

I see where he's getting that idea, and I agree, sort of. It needs clarification.

Yes, we have free will, to listen to the Spirit in us or not. But in the end, we WILL do as the Spirit moves us, as we are not our own, being bought with a price, and Jesus certainly knows better than we as to what to do and when. So really, are we really doing it, or are we influenced and spiritually exhorted to act a certain way or do a given thing?

25  These things have I spoken unto you, being [yet] present with you.
26  But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 14:25,26 (KJB)


I believe it is the Holy Ghost that gets the credit, not us. Otherwise what do we have to boast of? Scripture clearly says, "...lest any man should boast". So why would we want credit? Because of pride. We deserve nothing, and got everything handed to us freely, in spite of ourselves.

Without the Spirit, we can do nothing literal that means anything. It's totally of the flesh and a carnal act. We are to give, expecting nothing in return. Spiritually we are recognized by God, and will receive our reward in the end. Without the Spirit, God doesn't know us and we have no ability to even interpret scripture, much less know what is literal or spiritual. Without the Spirit, we cannot understand things of the Spirit.

"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:16 (KJB)

Thank you Jesus!
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2012, 12:58:10 pm »

he also says its ok to celebrate christmas time... Im gonna keep digging, im betting there will be some catholic influence...

Well, so does Bryan Denlinger and Greg Miller - no, I don't think they're RCC disinfo plants or anything, and I appreciate what they do. But REGARDLESS, both of these men, being KJV defenders for a long time, SHOULD know church history and how xmas originated. It was in the 1800's when xmas started infiltrating Protestant/Baptist churches...it was around the same time when Wescott and Hort, Charles Darwin, Constantine Tichendorf(sp), etc came about with there heresies that planted the seeds for the Apostasy that's really reaping now. All happened in the 1800's? Coincidence? Think not. Which is why I'm surprised Denlinger and Miller celebrate xmas as well.

Anyhow - just wanted to make a comment on this xmas thing(and saying that we shouldn't say this primarily is the reason why Hoggard could be a disinfo plant, as wanting to point out that other KJV watchers have fallen for this lie as well).

As for this thread - this is a very good one - this is a topic I myself struggle with when I read by bible. I know I have to let the Holy Ghost teach me, but again, this is something I have to keep in mind.
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2012, 06:37:35 pm »

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

start @ 23:45 in above video

discussion worth having...

would love to see some answers on this...
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2012, 06:47:46 pm »

would love to see some answers on this...

He said God raised Jesus from the dead...

1Jn 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


So this is a big error b/c Hoggard is implying that God and Jesus Christ are separate entities, when in fact Jesus Christ is God? That's what I'm understanding he was trying to say - and if so, this is a big error.

?
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2012, 06:58:42 pm »

Here's another passage to refute what he said...

1Timothy_3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Yes, come to think of it, I've heard him say this comment you showed at the 23:45 mark on other occassions.

Also, isn't this the idea that Benjamine Creme/Maitreya have been pushing, that this "Maitreya" guy was responsible and had power behind what Jesus did when he was on this earth 2000 years ago? I don't remember the details of it, but Creme said something along the lines of this.
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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2012, 03:25:46 am »

"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant," Hebrews 13:20 (KJB)

That's the verse he's basing his comments on. I'd have to hear more of his overall understanding, but I think he's just staying in context of that verse.

If you take that verse literally, then God DID raise Jesus up from the dead.

The unbelieving don't believe in the resurrection, yet we are to tell them Jesus raised Himself from the dead? They don't even believe Jesus, much less that Jesus is in fact God Almighty Himself. See the "conflict"?

It's a growing process to the truth. First they must believe, then the details from the Spirit will come that will explain how Jesus was raised by Himself.

Quote
this is a big error b/c Hoggard is implying that God and Jesus Christ are separate entities

They are separate! What makes you think they aren't? They can't agree if there is one. There would be no "they", it would just be "He".

BUT, "these three" are in fact also one, a single "entity". It's part of the mystery of God that He reveals to use as we are able to bear it. To children you must explain things in very basic terms till the child grows in understanding and can handle a little stronger meat. We see the unbelieving scoff at the "Trinity" all the time. They are confused how it's possible because they don't believe.

These three are separate entities, and also one entity at the same time. Don't understand how? Ask God because my feeble carnal mind can't comprehend how that's possible but I definitely know it to be true. Wink

"God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth." John 4:24 (KJB)
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 04:08:07 am »

I would really like to know just what he is implying over that statement. He boldly declares that Jesus did not raise himself, to which for starters that makes him a false prophet, for he predicted that he would raise himself. Second he is saying that Jesus isnt God, to which the Bible clearly states he is.

It seems to me that Hoggard is denying the Trinity, and he does this stuff all the time, its just most people do not catch it, or just let it pass.
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« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2013, 11:33:05 am »

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

start @ 23:45 in above video

discussion worth having...

Well, looks like Hoggard is correct on this...

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Crossed paths with this chapter last night. No, my opinion on Hoggard doesn't change, but this is what scripture says.
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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2013, 08:36:03 pm »

Well, looks like Hoggard is correct on this...

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Crossed paths with this chapter last night. No, my opinion on Hoggard doesn't change, but this is what scripture says.

uhm the question is WHO raised Jesus from the dead? Are you saying Jesus did not raise himself from the dead?
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« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2013, 08:56:59 pm »

uhm the question is WHO raised Jesus from the dead? Are you saying Jesus did not raise himself from the dead?

Yeah, was pointing out that the verse in Romans 10:9 says God raised Jesus from the dead.

No, I don't understand every aspect of scripture(far from it, actually), and never will while I'm in this flesh(which dwelleth no good thing), but Romans 10:9 specifically says God raised Jesus from the dead.

Input from everyone else? Huh
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« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2013, 03:57:23 am »

It sure does. And who is God?
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« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2013, 01:16:59 pm »

would love to see some answers on this...

So, I just finished watching a video yesterday showing the limits of human attention. It demonstrated the ability to pay attention to only one thing at a time. The scenario was that the observer focuses on some sleight of hand while the crew on set changes objects in the background.

I can see the “Jesus was fully man AND fully God” argument. It makes more sense to me now.

God, the Father, is aware of the overview of all things happening in the world, simultaneously, both inside and outside of the concept of timeline. And yet, at the same time, He is also aware and focused on every detail within the overview. As humans, we cannot do this. The flesh is very limited. This includes innate restrictions on the human brain and mind.

This Godly attribute also addresses the difference between the Holy Spirit and evil spirits. If the Holy Spirit shares attributes of the Father, then He is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. Whereas evil spirits have chosen to be apart from the living God and, therefore, have none of these attributes.

I believe that Jesus was fully man in the physical, yet fully God in the spiritual. Most would agree on the “fully man” part. But what about the spiritual? Please allow me to elaborate.


Will
1. the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions: the freedom of the will.
2. power of choosing one's own actions: to have a strong or a weak will.
3. the act or process of using or asserting one's choice; volition: My hands are obedient to my will.
4. wish or desire: to submit against one's will.
5. purpose or determination, often hearty or stubborn determination; willfulness: to have the will to succeed.

According to this definition, we all have power to make choices. We have control over the human mind. This, I submit, is free will. God has given this to everyone and will not infringe upon it. It is the source of disagreement, violence, and war.

I also submit that the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit are omni-willed.

I believe God wants to share His attributes with us. But to delegate that authority without us being of the same will would be harmful to the world. The devil, as the hired hand, violates this rule by exercising limited power/authority with no regard whatsoever to God’s will – and so we see destruction. The children of the devil are raised to do likewise. Obedience to the world comes from fear. We are tricked, coerced, and forced into obedience. The spirit of fear is something that God himself said He did not give to us.

In contrast, obedience to God is based on trust – a trust that is developed and mutual as our will agrees with His will. This is based on love. With that trust firmly established, why wouldn’t He delegate some of His authority and attributes to us? Within structures of man, there is a concept of delegation of authority. Normally, that is tied into levels of trust, which ties into levels of agreement. Humans recognize this.

Jesus knew about things happening in the future and He also knew about things happening away from His physical vicinity – omniscience. He was able to command physical forces and fallen angels – omnipotence. And He often talked about His agreement with the Father – omniwilled. Yet, as a human, Jesus still retained the freedom to agree or disagree with the Father every step of the way. This is evidenced by His words to the Father in the garden prior to His crucifixion.

Who raised Jesus from the dead? Jesus or the Father? I would have to say both did.

This topic stimulated a round table discussion with several people at breakfast this morning after this thread got me thinking about it! I think it was edifying. Thanks to all for posting.
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« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2014, 06:53:27 am »

Yeah, was pointing out that the verse in Romans 10:9 says God raised Jesus from the dead.

No, I don't understand every aspect of scripture(far from it, actually), and never will while I'm in this flesh(which dwelleth no good thing), but Romans 10:9 specifically says God raised Jesus from the dead.

Input from everyone else? Huh

Scriptures such as Romans 10:9 are speaking of God in his entirety -----> all three as One being. The only One of the three who is called God in this manner is the Father.

God the Father in scripture is declared to be a Spirit and One that no man had ever seen. In addition Jesus stated that the Father performed all of the works and was inside of His physical body.
In the old testament there is a verse that indicates the Father performs the resurrection so to me the who is a non-issue.

Whats interesting about all these facts is that in the Old Testament God was seen by some people (i.e. Adam and Eve saw Him, Abraham saw Him, Moses saw Him etc. etc.)

These God sightings could not have been the Father since no man has seen the Father. Many scriptures prove it and I`m not going to start on them right now but Jesus Christ was, is, always has been the Theophany of God. That`s why Jesus stated that He came forth from the Father and that he carried the Father within his body.

As to the other issue, the Bible says "The Word became flesh" so yes, Jesus was fully man. He has been a man twice. The first time He was called Melchizedek.
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2017, 11:17:52 pm »

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