Ive known Chris for many years, doesnt mean ive watched everything he has ever done. When ever some one says im pre-wrath, it usually means something else.
Admittedly, my view of pre-wrath is ever-so-slightly different from Chris' view of it, though I generally agree with his stance on it. I'd highly recommend his presentation on it.
Here's the link: (It's over an hour long, so beware)
See this is what i mean by it usually means something else. The 6th seal is the Wrath of the Lamb, not the wrath of God. Yes i know he is one and the same, but scripture calls it something else.
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Notice that the wrath of the Lamb does not occur until the 6th seal is opened. The first 5 seals are not wrath. I believe they are man-made catastrophe that lead up to God finally sending His wrath on earth. (1st seal is the Freemasonic/New Age Christ, the Unconquered Sun, the Antichrist) (2nd seal is worldwide war, possibly WWIII) (3rd seal is a worldwide food crisis and economic collapse) (4th seal is pestilence/pandemic and overall death) (5th seal is martyrdom of the saints) The wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God are connected to one another and don't start until the 6th seal rapture and 7th seal has been opened. Think of it like a layer system:
First 5 Seals - Man-made catastrophe, the NWO comes to fruition
6th Seal - Rapture of the elect
7th Seal - Beginning of God's wrath
7 Trumpets - Wrath of the Lamb
7 Vials - Wrath of God (either the Father or the entire Godhead)
God pours out his wrath on the world during the whole Time of Jacobs trouble. The whole time period is the Wrath of God. You can grab all kinds of verses where you find the phrase wrath of God, but that doesnt make it the tribulation period. The whole Tribulation period, known by many different names, the great and terrible day of the Lord, the time of Jacobs trouble, the wrath of God, the Apocalyspe.
How is that possible, if Elijah arrives and preaches to the Jews in Jerusalem during the tribulation/time of Jacob's trouble period (alongside another, whether it be Moses or Enoch. I personally think it's Enoch) when the Bible clearly says he arrives BEFORE the great and dreadful day of the Lord?
Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:So when you say your pre wrath, there are a lot of different meanings to it. So when YOU say pre wrath, pre wrath what? 6th seal? War of Gog and Magog? How about when the Lord killed the men of Israel in the desert for complaining to much?
Psa 78:31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
Im not trying to be complicated, just want to know exactly what you mean. I can state my position very clearly, pre wrath? i have no idea...
Though I can make a case for the seals and trumpets running concurrently (6th seal and immediately after 7th trumpet: this is why I'm asking my question), I generally see pre-wrath in the sense that the rapture occurs at the 6th seal, and the trumpets and vials occur afterward as the day of the Lord.
what does any of that have to do with the Rapture?
I don't know, you tell me.
The seventh angel has nothing to do with the final trumpet. The Church is already in Heaven and Judged in Rev 4 and 5. The 7th trumpet is just that, the 7th trumpet.
That's what I'm asking: What DOES it have to do with? If it isn't the rapture, than what is it?
This is the First Resurrection, this isnt the Rapture.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The people on the thrones, that is the Church the Bride of Christ. We are in Heaven in Rev 4 and 5, already Judged and received our crowns. We are the ones with the Lord in Heaven in Rev 19 on horses before he descends back to Earth, and it is us who are on the Thrones in Rev 20.
This is the closest you've ever come to answering my question. However, I would like to ask you to elaborate more.
I did, a couple of times now. The Church is raptured Before the Lord even takes the seal. Heck we are raptured and Judged before that happens. In your pre-wrath view, when is the Judgment seat of Christ that is only for his bride?
No Mark, you didn't. You just told me "that has nothing to do with the rapture" and then never explained what it
does have to do with. I want to know what those verses are describing.
In the pre-wrath view, the judgment seat of Christ takes place during the day of the Lord (which is not the entire 7-year tribulation period). It is referred to in scripture as the day of Christ (the day of Christ is for the saved, whereas the day of the Lord is the outpouring of wrath and fierce judgment on the wicked).
P.S. I know I can get agitated sometimes and sound like I'm yelling at you. I'm not, I just really want to understand this issue.
