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PreTrib Rapture Moment

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Author Topic: PreTrib Rapture Moment  (Read 1169 times)
Kilika
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« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2013, 05:17:42 am »

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I know the Lord provides for his flock

Indeed He does. Jesus promised. So it really doesn't matter when we are here or in heaven, we are saved, delivered from the evil as sons of God.

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:14 (KJB)
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« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2013, 06:11:36 am »








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« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2014, 09:37:47 pm »

I have a pre-trib rapture question, and figured this was as good a place as any to ask it.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I'd love to believe pre-trib, but these verses are holding me back. It seems almost confirmatory that it would mention the "voice of the seventh angel" and "when he shall begin to sound" when we look at rapture verses referring to "the trumpet shall sound" and "the voice of the archangel".

Also, the time of the dead, that they should be judged? That can't be the great white throne judgment. It would seem to me that the judging of "them that fear thy name" would include us, as we fear God's name. That would make it the judgment seat of Christ, no?

If anyone has an explanation, I'd love to hear it. I want to get this issue straightened out once and for all. In my mind, it comes down to pre-trib vs. pre-wrath. No other theory makes sense.
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« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2014, 03:43:26 am »

if its not pre trib, than how are we in Heaven with the Lord on horses before he comes back in Rev 19?

Rev 10:7 and 11:15-18 have nothing to do with the Rapture. Your assuming that the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet. Scripture doesn't say that at all, and you cant make it work.

The Church is in Heaven already passed through the Judgment seat of Christ in Rev ch 4 and 5. We are in Heaven on horses with the Lord in Rev 19, all before the second coming. The second coming is Jesus coming back to Earth, not the sky to gather his people. The rapture he comes gets us, the second coming we come back with him.  Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2014, 04:11:12 am »

Also Jesus already went to Heaven once and came back,that we know of. So really wouldnt the rapture be the third coming  Wink and so on...

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Here the Lord says do not touch me, i havent ascended to my father. and later...

Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Here the Lord is touched, so he had to ascend to Heaven and came back. Second coming.  Smiley
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« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2014, 04:28:25 am »

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« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2014, 06:16:31 am »

if its not pre trib, than how are we in Heaven with the Lord on horses before he comes back in Rev 19?

See, now you're confusing me with a post-trib view. I'm pre-wrath. Totally different. Post-trib believes we are raptured at the battle of Armageddon. I don't believe that. You can't come up and down at the same time.

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Rev 10:7 and 11:15-18 have nothing to do with the Rapture.

Then what DO they have to do with? That's my question. Like I said, I'd like to believe pre-trib, but until someone explains those verses I posted, I can't.

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Your assuming that the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet. Scripture doesn't say that at all, and you cant make it work.

From the above verses, it would at least make sense.

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« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2014, 06:17:40 am »

im sorry, what is pre wrath?

The whole thing is called the WRATH OF GOD.

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Then what DO they have to do with? That's my question. Like I said, I'd like to believe pre-trib, but until someone explains those verses I posted, I can't.

see the other vid, the one about the trumpets. The last trumpet has never been the 7th trumpet of Rev.
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« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2014, 10:23:09 pm »

im sorry, what is pre wrath?

You watch Chris White's vids right? (you posted his latest vid) He has a full presentation on the pre-wrath position, and I think he does an excellent job explaining it. Though I have a few differences in my view of pre-wrath than him.

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The whole thing is called the WRATH OF GOD.

Not necessarily. The day of the Lord is called the wrath of God. Zephaniah 1:15 says, "That day is a day of wrath..." Notice that "wrath" is specifically mentioned in four places during the time of Jacob's trouble:

1. When the 6th Seal is opened (the great day of his wrath is come)

This means that before the 6th seal, the wrath of the Lamb/Jesus/God the Son hadn't occurred yet, but now that day is come.

2. After the 7th Trumpet is sounded (The nations were angry, and thy wrath is come)

This means that the day of God's wrath has come immediately after the 7th trumpet and not before it.

3. When the angel warns men not to receive the mark of the Beast (The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God)

This means that the wrath of God will come down on those that take the mark (not those who don't. It also is an indicator that God's wrath hasn't been revealed yet.

4. The 7 Vials (for in them is filled up the wrath of God)

Pretty self explanatory. The 7 vials are God's wrath being "poured out without mixture."

Also, if the time of Jacob's trouble is the day of the Lord, how can Elijah show up DURING the day of the Lord, when God tells us clearly he will arrive BEFORE it?

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Quote
see the other vid, the one about the trumpets. The last trumpet has never been the 7th trumpet of Rev.

All that tells me is that the 7th trumpet isn't the rapture (which is still debatable, seeing as how Chris got the Feast of Trumpets part wrong. See Leviticus 23:24 about that) it doesn't tell me WHAT Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-18 is describing.

Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the "mystery of God?" What is the "voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound?" And why are they so similar in wording to what happens in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16?

Revelation 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Who is He giving reward to? Why is this "the time of the dead, that they should be judged?"

Please, I beg of you, answer my questions. I want to believe pre-trib, but I won't until I've been convinced through scripture that it is 100% correct.
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« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2014, 05:22:13 am »

You watch Chris White's vids right? (you posted his latest vid) He has a full presentation on the pre-wrath position, and I think he does an excellent job explaining it. Though I have a few differences in my view of pre-wrath than him.

Ive known Chris for many years, doesnt mean ive watched everything he has ever done. When ever some one says im pre-wrath, it usually means something else.

Quote
1. When the 6th Seal is opened (the great day of his wrath is come)

This means that before the 6th seal, the wrath of the Lamb/Jesus/God the Son hadn't occurred yet, but now that day is come.

See this is what i mean by it usually means something else. The 6th seal is the Wrath of the Lamb, not the wrath of God. Yes i know he is one and the same, but scripture calls it something else.


Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


God pours out his wrath on the world during the whole Time of Jacobs trouble. The whole time period is the Wrath of God. You can grab all kinds of verses where you find the phrase wrath of God, but that doesnt make it the tribulation period. The whole Tribulation period, known by many different names, the great and terrible day of the Lord, the time of Jacobs trouble, the wrath of God, the Apocalyspe.

So when you say yoru pre wrath, there are a lot of differnt meanings to it. So when YOU say pre wrath, pre wrath what? 6th seal? War of Gog and Magog? How about when the Lord killed the men of Israel in the desert for complaining to much?

Psa 78:31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.

Im not trying to be complicated, just want to know exactly what you mean. I can state my position very clearly, pre wrath? i have no idea...

Quote
What is the "mystery of God?" What is the "voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound?" And why are they so similar in wording to what happens in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16?

what does any of that have to do with the Rapture? The seventh angel has nothing to do with the final trumpet. The Church is already in Heaven and Judged in Rev 4 and 5. The 7th trumpet is just that, the 7th trumpet.

Quote
Revelation 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Who is He giving reward to? Why is this "the time of the dead, that they should be judged?"

This is the First Resurrection, this isnt the Rapture.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


The people on the thrones, that is the Church the Bride of Christ. We are in Heaven in Rev 4 and 5, already Judged and received our crowns. We are the ones with the Lord in Heaven in Rev 19 on horses before he descends back to Earth, and it is us who are on the Thrones in Rev 20.

Quote
Please, I beg of you, answer my questions. I want to believe pre-trib, but I won't until I've been convinced through scripture that it is 100% correct.

I did, a couple of times now. The Church is raptured Before the Lord even takes the seal. Heck we are raptured and Judged before that happens. In your pre-wrath view, when is the Judgment seat of Christ that is only for his bride?
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« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2014, 01:13:56 pm »

Ive known Chris for many years, doesnt mean ive watched everything he has ever done. When ever some one says im pre-wrath, it usually means something else.

Admittedly, my view of pre-wrath is ever-so-slightly different from Chris' view of it, though I generally agree with his stance on it. I'd highly recommend his presentation on it. Smiley

Here's the link: (It's over an hour long, so beware)


Quote
See this is what i mean by it usually means something else. The 6th seal is the Wrath of the Lamb, not the wrath of God. Yes i know he is one and the same, but scripture calls it something else.


Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Notice that the wrath of the Lamb does not occur until the 6th seal is opened. The first 5 seals are not wrath. I believe they are man-made catastrophe that lead up to God finally sending His wrath on earth. (1st seal is the Freemasonic/New Age Christ, the Unconquered Sun, the Antichrist) (2nd seal is worldwide war, possibly WWIII) (3rd seal is a worldwide food crisis and economic collapse) (4th seal is pestilence/pandemic and overall death) (5th seal is martyrdom of the saints) The wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God are connected to one another and don't start until the 6th seal rapture and 7th seal has been opened. Think of it like a layer system:

First 5 Seals - Man-made catastrophe, the NWO comes to fruition
6th Seal - Rapture of the elect
7th Seal - Beginning of God's wrath
7 Trumpets - Wrath of the Lamb
7 Vials - Wrath of God (either the Father or the entire Godhead)

Quote
God pours out his wrath on the world during the whole Time of Jacobs trouble. The whole time period is the Wrath of God. You can grab all kinds of verses where you find the phrase wrath of God, but that doesnt make it the tribulation period. The whole Tribulation period, known by many different names, the great and terrible day of the Lord, the time of Jacobs trouble, the wrath of God, the Apocalyspe.

How is that possible, if Elijah arrives and preaches to the Jews in Jerusalem during the tribulation/time of Jacob's trouble period (alongside another, whether it be Moses or Enoch. I personally think it's Enoch) when the Bible clearly says he arrives BEFORE the great and dreadful day of the Lord?

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Quote
So when you say your pre wrath, there are a lot of different meanings to it. So when YOU say pre wrath, pre wrath what? 6th seal? War of Gog and Magog? How about when the Lord killed the men of Israel in the desert for complaining to much?

Psa 78:31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.

Im not trying to be complicated, just want to know exactly what you mean. I can state my position very clearly, pre wrath? i have no idea...

Though I can make a case for the seals and trumpets running concurrently (6th seal and immediately after 7th trumpet: this is why I'm asking my question), I generally see pre-wrath in the sense that the rapture occurs at the 6th seal, and the trumpets and vials occur afterward as the day of the Lord.

Quote
what does any of that have to do with the Rapture?

I don't know, you tell me.

Quote
The seventh angel has nothing to do with the final trumpet. The Church is already in Heaven and Judged in Rev 4 and 5. The 7th trumpet is just that, the 7th trumpet.

That's what I'm asking: What DOES it have to do with? If it isn't the rapture, than what is it?

Quote
This is the First Resurrection, this isnt the Rapture.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


The people on the thrones, that is the Church the Bride of Christ. We are in Heaven in Rev 4 and 5, already Judged and received our crowns. We are the ones with the Lord in Heaven in Rev 19 on horses before he descends back to Earth, and it is us who are on the Thrones in Rev 20.

This is the closest you've ever come to answering my question. However, I would like to ask you to elaborate more. Smiley

Quote
I did, a couple of times now. The Church is raptured Before the Lord even takes the seal. Heck we are raptured and Judged before that happens. In your pre-wrath view, when is the Judgment seat of Christ that is only for his bride?

No Mark, you didn't. You just told me "that has nothing to do with the rapture" and then never explained what it does have to do with. I want to know what those verses are describing.

In the pre-wrath view, the judgment seat of Christ takes place during the day of the Lord (which is not the entire 7-year tribulation period). It is referred to in scripture as the day of Christ (the day of Christ is for the saved, whereas the day of the Lord is the outpouring of wrath and fierce judgment on the wicked).

P.S. I know I can get agitated sometimes and sound like I'm yelling at you. I'm not, I just really want to understand this issue.
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« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2014, 02:21:50 am »

Tell you what guys, once you get the back and forth worked out, how about somebody posting up a thread that clearly step by step lays out the time line for all this so we won't keep hashing it out over and over.

It doesn't matter when a rapture happens and I'd prefer to ban any discussions of it. But, scripture says it happens, at some point we meet the Lord in the air.
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« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2014, 05:03:49 am »

THESE things are getting to long. Lets keep it to one topic. Lets start with your pre-wrath view. I dont have time to sit and watch an hour long vid today, can you give me the condensced version?
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« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2014, 05:46:28 pm »

THESE things are getting to long. Lets keep it to one topic. Lets start with your pre-wrath view.

Why don't we start with the questions I presented at the beginning? I want to agree with you on pre-trib, but first I need answers to these questions.

Quote
God pours out his wrath on the world during the whole Time of Jacobs trouble. The whole time period is the Wrath of God. You can grab all kinds of verses where you find the phrase wrath of God, but that doesnt make it the tribulation period. The whole Tribulation period, known by many different names, the great and terrible day of the Lord, the time of Jacobs trouble, the wrath of God, the Apocalyspe.

Once again, how is that possible, if Elijah arrives and preaches to the Jews in Jerusalem during the tribulation/time of Jacob's trouble period (alongside another, whether it be Moses or Enoch) when the Bible clearly says he arrives BEFORE the great and dreadful day of the Lord?

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

If the day of the Lord is the tribulation, and if Elijah comes during the tribulation, why does it say he comes before it?

Quote
The seventh angel has nothing to do with the final trumpet. The Church is already in Heaven and Judged in Rev 4 and 5. The 7th trumpet is just that, the 7th trumpet.

Then what DOES it have to do with? What is it? It says it is the time that the dead should be judged. Here are my questions regarding the 7th trumpet:

-What is "the voice of the seventh angel?"
-What is the "mystery of God?"
-Who are the dead?
-What is being judged?
-Can there be two judgment seats of Christ?

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I dont have time to sit and watch an hour long vid today, can you give me the condensced version?

Well Mark, then watch it another time. Pre-wrath wasn't the point of my original post. It was to get these questions answered.
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« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2014, 05:35:40 am »

how about you just tell me what your pre wrath view is since it is different than the video you presented
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« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2014, 05:38:57 am »

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-What is "the voice of the seventh angel?" the voice of the 7th angel.
-What is the "mystery of God?" [color=]this is the full plan that the Lord has created for mankind and his whole purpose for doing it. Its a mystery, meaning a new revelation. IE: we finally get all the answers. [/color]
-Who are the dead? dead people who are not saved by Jesus
-What is being judged? which jusgment are we talking about here?
-Can there be two judgment seats of Christ? Nope. You have the Judgment seat of Christ which happens after the Rapture, then you have the first Resurection, then you have the White Throne Judgment.
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« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2014, 05:40:42 am »

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Once again, how is that possible, if Elijah arrives and preaches to the Jews in Jerusalem during the tribulation/time of Jacob's trouble period (alongside another, whether it be Moses or Enoch) when the Bible clearly says he arrives BEFORE the great and dreadful day of the Lord?

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

If the day of the Lord is the tribulation, and if Elijah comes during the tribulation, why does it say he comes before it?


Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
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« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2014, 07:46:36 pm »


Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


Smiley You're half right.

Matthew 11:13-14  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

John the Baptist was Elijah only if the children of Israel received it ("it" being the kingdom). They did not. They killed their Messiah, Jesus, and persecuted His disciples. So Elijah must come again (as one of the two witnesses) to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, etc. DURING the tribulation/TOJT.

Quote
which jusgment are we talking about here?

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This judgment.
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« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2014, 06:12:42 am »

Smiley You're half right.

Matthew 11:13-14  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

John the Baptist was Elijah only if the children of Israel received it ("it" being the kingdom). They did not. They killed their Messiah, Jesus, and persecuted His disciples. So Elijah must come again (as one of the two witnesses) to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, etc. DURING the tribulation/TOJT.

 Huh WHAT? can you back that up with scripture? that Elijah comes 3 times?  Because Matt 17 clearly states that Elias has already come, and that he came as John and the Lord was speaking to his disciples.
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« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2014, 06:20:14 am »


Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This judgment.

That is talking about the first ressurection jusgment that happens AFTER the Trib. This is NOT the Judgment seat of Christ that happens right after the Rapture.

Bryan has 2 good sermons on this.

The Judgment Seat Of Christ Pt 1
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=522111445540
The Judgment Seat Of Christ Pt 2
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=529111434278

The first ressurection doesnt involve the Church or Bride, we are the ones on the thrones.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
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« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2014, 12:30:49 pm »

quote from: FervorForFaith on January 08, 2014, 06:46:36 pm
Quote
Smiley You're half right.

Matthew 11:13-14  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

John the Baptist was Elijah only if the children of Israel received it ("it" being the kingdom). They did not. They killed their Messiah, Jesus, and persecuted His disciples. So Elijah must come again (as one of the two witnesses) to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, etc. DURING the tribulation/TOJT.
Huh WHAT? can you back that up with scripture? that Elijah comes 3 times?  Because Matt 17 clearly states that Elias has already come, and that he came as John and the Lord was speaking to his disciples.

"it" Jesus was talking about was John the Baptist is the literal fulfillment of the coming of Elias in prophecy, not the kingdom. What they would receive or not was Jesus saying that His Word says that John the Baptist is to be accepted as the fulfillment of prophecy of the return of Elias, "which was for to come", if they would "receive it".

He was not literally Elias. John the Baptist was for them, at that time, and it fulfilled prophecy about Elias, as Jesus said.

Quote
So Elijah must come again (as one of the two witnesses)

I agree with Mark. The return of Elias, as Jesus said, has already happened, in the form of John the Baptist.

Your problem is in saying who the two witnesses are. Scripture does NOT say. It's mere speculation by man. For you to name one or both witnesses, you need extraordinary scriptural proof, because I believe it is not there in verse.

Show me the verse where the two witnesses are named. Maybe I missed it.
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« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2014, 08:07:47 pm »

If the children of Israel had accepted/received it, John the Baptist would have been the fulfillment of Elijah, according to the prophecy. Much like if they had accepted/received Jesus as Messiah, the day of the Lord would have happened and the kingdom would have been ushered in.

Matthew 11:13-14  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

It was a conditional statement. John is Elijah IF you will receive it. They did not. Jesus said that Elijah will first come and "restore all things". John is the greatest of the prophets, but he did not do that. Israel rejected their Messiah, and are lost right now.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John was a fantastic evangelist, and yes, he did fulfill the prophecy, but he did not completely fulfill the prophecy.

So now because that happened, we have the church age we are in right now.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Once the church age is over and the tribulation begins, God will send Elijah himself as one of the two witnesses of Revelation.

Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

Revelation 11:3-6 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

1260 days = about 3.5 years

Elijah's mission, as was John the Baptist's mission, will be to prepare Israel for its Messiah.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

This time, however, the children of Israel will believe and be saved.

To summarize: Yes, John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy in Malachi 4:5, but he did not COMPLETELY fulfill it. It was conditional. "...if ye will receive it..." Much like how Jesus offered the kingdom to the Jews when He arrived the first time, they rejected it. "He hath a devil..."
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« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2014, 02:13:29 am »

Quote
Show me the verse where the two witnesses are named. Maybe I missed it.

Quote
Once the church age is over and the tribulation begins, God will send Elijah himself as one of the two witnesses of Revelation.

Show me where it says that in verse!

I know I didn't miss it, but I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. It's not there. To say who the 2 witnesses are is to speculate at best. Scripture does not name them.

Remember that we are to look at this spiritually, not always literally. Who spiritually would be the 2 witnesses, and who would be "Elias"? My understanding is that we are not to look for a literal Elias to return before the Lord does. John the Baptist fulfilled that prophecy, whether the Jews received it or not.

It was not "conditional". It was a way of saying, "If you will believe it", or something like, "If you will accept John as Elias". It's a figure of speech. It was Jesus' way of saying that Elias wasn't never intended to literally return. It's a spiritual return in the form of John the Baptist, whether Jews accepted it or not, it was going to happen to fulfill prophecy.
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« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2014, 06:03:36 am »

If the children of Israel had accepted/received it, John the Baptist would have been the fulfillment of Elijah, according to the prophecy. Much like if they had accepted/received Jesus as Messiah, the day of the Lord would have happened and the kingdom would have been ushered in.

Matthew 11:13-14  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

It was a conditional statement. John is Elijah IF you will receive it. They did not. Jesus said that Elijah will first come and "restore all things". John is the greatest of the prophets, but he did not do that. Israel rejected their Messiah, and are lost right now.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John was a fantastic evangelist, and yes, he did fulfill the prophecy, but he did not completely fulfill the prophecy.

So now because that happened, we have the church age we are in right now.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Once the church age is over and the tribulation begins, God will send Elijah himself as one of the two witnesses of Revelation.

Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

Revelation 11:3-6 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

1260 days = about 3.5 years

Elijah's mission, as was John the Baptist's mission, will be to prepare Israel for its Messiah.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

This time, however, the children of Israel will believe and be saved.

To summarize: Yes, John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy in Malachi 4:5, but he did not COMPLETELY fulfill it. It was conditional. "...if ye will receive it..." Much like how Jesus offered the kingdom to the Jews when He arrived the first time, they rejected it. "He hath a devil..."

So you think it is a partially fulfilled prophecy then. A lot of people believe that, the only problem is where Jesus himself said it was fulfilled. He said Elias has come already, AND that they knew him not. The Lord is recognizing that the Jews didnít accept him as to who he was. Jesus didnít say he would come again but said he is come already

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Scripture usually makes it sort of clear if the prophecy is to be fulfilled in 2 parts, like the where he spoke the prophecy of Isiah 61. The Lord stopped at and the day of vengeance of our God;, because he wasnít here for that yet. That is a 2 part prophecy. The Lord said that Elijah had ALREADY come and they rejected him. Elijah fulfilled his prophecy as John the Baptist.

Now could Elijah come a third time? he could, but nowhere in scripture does it state the identity of the two witnesses. a lot of people speculate and have some good theories as to who they are, but none can say with 100% proof of it. Especially in light of Matt 17:12.
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« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2014, 03:44:28 pm »

Thought I'd post this here.

After exhausting all possibilities, searching the scriptures for weeks on this matter and reading up on movie treatments like Rapture Palooza and this new Project Blue Beam "trumpet" sound with my wife (as well as watching some of Bryan's helpful rapture moment videos), I've finally had to put down my sinful pride and come to the conclusion that...

I was wrong on this issue. I apologize for any antagonism I caused. Embarrassed
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« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2014, 04:07:38 pm »

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

your good brother
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« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2014, 04:22:12 pm »

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

your good brother

Also - just keep in mind that MAJOR war and famine come BEFORE persecution(for not taking the MOB, that is). Revelation 6 makes this clear. IOW, the time of Jacob's trouble is going to be great tribulation like NEVER before.

FFF - I too was in this same boat from 2009 to early 2013 - can't tell you all of the prideful attitude I exhibited over my embracing of the post-trib position over at PPF(which Mark and Kilika can attest to). It was as if I knew all of this knowledge at my fingertips, and wanted to yell it out from the Empire State Building...only to make a fool out of myself.

Keep in mind too - 1) It's NOT Satan(nor the Illuminati, Freemasons, etc) that unleashes the Antichrist(1st seal that kicks off everything, that is), but GOD that does so. 2) The unleashing of the Revelation judgments is just that...GOD'S judgment on the unbelieving world - IOW, why would he release these judgments on his bride? 3) The 7 year great tribulation will largely be focusing on the Jews/Israel - so it makes no sense over why the NT church would still be here.
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« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2014, 08:23:36 pm »

Truth be told, after I found all of the Biblical evidence pointing to the pre-trib view, I felt almost... stupid for ever believing post-trib (and I don't mean pre-wrath, a la Chris White, I mean full on post-trib, as in raptured at Armageddon post-trib)

And that's not to say post-tribbers are stupid or that they don't understand Bible doctrine. A lot of post-tribbers are genuinely saved (Kent Hovind, Scott Johnson, etc.) and have more comprehension than I do most of the time. All I'm saying is that when you look at it objectively, how can you come to a purely post-trib conclusion from the Bible? I do understand how one can come to a pre-wrath view, but ultimately pre-trib is the way it will work out.
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« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2014, 09:45:44 pm »

I do understand how one can come to a pre-wrath view, but ultimately pre-trib is the way it will work out.

Pre-wrath and pre-trib are all but one and the same(b/c God's judgments on this world get opened at the 1st seal of Rev 6) - don't let the "We're not post-trib, but we're pre-wrath b/c pre-trib is not the correct doctrine" people fool you.
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« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2014, 10:15:58 pm »

Pre-wrath and pre-trib are all but one and the same(b/c God's judgments on this world get opened at the 1st seal of Rev 6) - don't let the "We're not post-trib, but we're pre-wrath b/c pre-trib is not the correct doctrine" people fool you.

I agree.

I can see how people come to a conclusion like that, though. At least you can find verses that support "pre-wrath". Pure post-trib? Not one (unless you twist scriptures referring to everyday tribulations we go through as born again believers [which I did once upon a time])
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