Who is Israel?

[Psalm 51:17]

Personally, I'm not really the world's best person when it comes to knowing all of the details about end times prophecies - but FWIW, the church has not replaced Israel. Yes, I understand we're under the NT covenant, the age of grace, but scripture makes it clear that the NT church and Israel are 2 different entities, and not the church replacing Israel.

If anything, this is where the modern-day church is in error - they believe just that, the church replacing Israel. From what I understand, this is largely b/c they use these false bible versions(ie-the NIV, in particular, subtlely removes/changes words to make it look like the church has replaced Israel).

Act 2:14  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[Psalm 51:17]

First off, I'm not John Hagee, Hal Lindsey, nor John MacArthur, who think Israel can do no wrong, gets a free pass on everything, etc, etc. But on the other end of the spectrum, I'm not Texe Marrs, Jeff Rense, nor those WOY clowns who think that Jews/Israel are at the head of the food chain running the Illuminati, so therefore by their logic all Jews are evil.

With that being said - the NT church, I believe, has not replaced Israel. And another point I want to throw in is that God is NOT done with Israel. Here are some scriptures to back this up...

Rom 9:31  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:1  Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:19  But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20  But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21  But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Rom 11:1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

OK, everyone, let's SLOW DOWN here - I think all of us(including myself) are getting WAY AHEAD of ourselves with too much. Let's start with ISRAEL FIRST. From these scriptures alone, this shows that God is NOT done with the nation of Israel, and it shows that the NT church is NOT Israel. There is more to say in this thread, but let's resolve this FIRST.

[FervorForFaith]

I agree with this.

The Church is not Israel, and Israel is not the Church.

However, both are part of the larger group known as the body of Christ (at least, the Church and saved Israel).

[Psalm 51:17]

I agree with this.

The Church is not Israel, and Israel is not the Church.

However, both are part of the larger group known as the body of Christ (at least, the Church and saved Israel).

 

Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

[Kilika]

Okay, back on topic, seeing Mark isn't going to reply for now...

Quote

Point blank, do you believe a Jew can be saved without accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour?

nope and i think i just showed you that. Thats not "chuchianity" that is what the Bible says. You have claimed a couple of times you dont know to much about this stuff, well why not learn some of it instead of going against what you feel is wrong.

So, we agree that Jews cannot be saved unless they repent and are baptized. Then they are no longer a Jew! They are Christian. That's not a remnant Mark, that's people who have converted, nothing more. In the end, ALL believers are Christians. A remnant of Jews may repent and be converted, but they must be baptized like any other believer, thus they are Christians.

No Jews will be saved, unless they convert to Christianity. Only those who believe and are baptized will be saved. THAT is what scripture says.

I claim the truth. I'm not going to lie and pretend I know something when I don't. Yes, as I have said more than once, I have not made an effort to go into details on such topics as the rapture. It's a silly topic. It's unprofitable and vain to debate. Scripture says so as I've pointed out.

Arguing the so-called "rapture" is like arguing over what length robes we get in heaven! WHO CARES? We get them, so rejoice and quit adding to the divisions.

If you people want to keep arguing about this, that's on you. I'm done trying to exhort you otherwise. Maybe with some age and maturity in faith it will become clear just how vain this topic is.

[Kilika]

Add that in with my other reasonings that I've posted (which, surprisingly, nobody has tried to disprove yet)

No disrespect intended, but we kind of got sidetracked. Sorry, but the contentions needed addressing first. Please bear with us.

If you are referring to your comments on the "rapture", I've said my peace. I'm done with it. It's fruitless to argue it. Have an opinion, fine, but to argue back and forth? I want no part of that.

Though some act like it is, this is not a contest to see who knows what. Each of us have our understandings as we grow in grace. Some are younger than others, spiritually speaking, and they are showing it. To argue is to allow pride to take hold. We cannot convince anybody of anything. Ultimately God by His Spirit will teach each of us independently of each other. THAT is why we may not all agree all the time. We are still the same body of Christ, just different branches.

Speaking of branches, could we split this somehow to get the "Who is Israel" in a separate thread? I would, but I'm no longer a moderator, I've been demoted, so you know! 

Please include this by BA in the thread...

Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Thank you BA, those verses prove my point.

Notice what branches were broken off; the natural branches/unbelieving Jews who reject Jesus.

Those broken off branches were unbelieving Jews, the original Hebrew people, the nation Israel of the Old Testament. Those who were grafted in, and are grafted, are non-Jews, gentiles, that believed and were grafted/baptized into the tree.

This doctrine of claiming some Jews will be saved is presented, as I've seen it over time, as though some Jews will be saved simply because God made certain promises to the nation Israel. Yes, God keeps every promise. The problem with this topic is that people are misinterpreting what scripture says, and in the end, I suspect it's Jews who started this lie in the first place to make being a Jew and rejecting Jesus seem better.

Regardless of who started the lie, none the less, it's not true. EVERYBODY MUST repent and be baptized, thus they are no longer a Jew, which is outwardly, period.

For the Jew, putting off the deeds of the "old man" is turning from Judaism/the old covenant, and becoming born-again.

"Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJB)

[Kilika]

Did somebody change the time we have to modify a post? I feel like I'm back at PPF!

[Psalm 51:17]

Did somebody change the time we have to modify a post? I feel like I'm back at PPF!

I believe it was 2 years when the change of time was modified. Mark, is it possible if you could change it back to where everyone has a good time period to edit their posts?

Anyhow - OK, I think we all have an understanding what Israel is, good(ie-glad to hear everyone believes the NT church has not replaced it). Like I said, I am NOT John Hagee nor Hal Lindsey, I repeat, both of whom act like Jews are more special than everyone else. But at the same time, I am NOT Texe Marrs nor Jeff Rense either, both of him act like the Jews are at the head of the Illuminati chain.

With that being said, the whole point with the Jews and end times prophecies is that the great tribulation will largely focus on the land of Israel. The book of Joel, in particular, prophecizes this, as does Acts 2:14-21. I was reading through Joel again the other night, and they specifically talked about the land of Israel, and nothing more pretty much, in the end times. And other OT end times prophecies have echoed the same.

I don't think anyone is trying to imply all Jews, whether unbelieving or converts to Christianity, will be with us in heaven.

"...Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee"

[Kilika]

Those who are born-again have no worries, as we will be spared. That's the whole point of salvation.

No, not all Jews, some people are saying that some Jews will be saved, a "remnant". I say no they won't. Those verses are talking about the New Testament Israel, those who are circumcised in the heart, not the flesh.

The Jews of Judaism will not be saved because of promises God made to the Hebrew people. None of them at least that don't believe. God WILL keep His promises, but not in the manner some say. 

The only people who will be saved are those who are born-again, thus they are no longer called Jews by the letter of the Judaic law, but Jews by grace, spiritual Jews who have accept Jesus as Lord, circumcised of the heart.

28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29  But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Romans 2:28,29 (KJB)

26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29  And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:26-29 (KJB)

[Psalm 51:17]

OK, just split this discussion into its own thread. If I missed any posts from the thread(Pre-trib rapture and antichrist) that should be in this thread, please send me a pm and I will include it.

Pre-trib rapture and antichrist - thread this discussion was formerly in.
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,3410.60.html

[Kilika]

Looks good BA, thanks! 

[FervorForFaith]

If the third that goes through the fire were born-again Christians, that would mean that only one-third of us are gonna get to heaven. The other two-thirds aren't gonna make it. Well, I guess we gotta start drawing straws now, guys. Naturally, since I'm the one who realized it, I get a free pass

All kidding aside, that can't happen as Jesus Christ has assured our salvation. All of us that are saved WILL be in heaven with Him for eternity. The third that goes through the fire and is made pure are the current unbelieving Jews that will get saved during the tribulation. The nation of Israel is still Israel. BornAgain2 has some great verses that show this, but he missed a big one, imo. Look at this verse:

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Blindness in part (only very few have gotten saved), UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in (we Gentiles all get saved that are gonna get saved). It can't be referring to the believers because most of the believers at the present time ARE Gentiles. And if it were referring to the born again believers (and not natural-born Israel) why would we be blind? We have received our Lord and Saviour. We know Him, and Him us.

[Christian40]

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Blindness in part (only very few have gotten saved), UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in (we Gentiles all get saved that are gonna get saved). It can't be referring to the believers because most of the believers at the present time ARE Gentiles. And if it were referring to the born again believers (and not natural-born Israel) why would we be blind? We have received our Lord and Saviour. We know Him, and Him us.

Good find, yes there have been some Jews that have been saved.

[Mark]

The Church isn’t here in the end times, trying to make Israel and the Church one and the same doesn’t work. The Church is raptured around the beginning of the Church, the End times deals with the world and Israel. 2/3 of all of Israel will be killed off and a remnant from the 1/3 will be saved as they accept Jesus and call for him to save them at the end. Thus all of Israel will be saved as all that will be left will be Christian.

The Church nowhere replaced Israel, the Bible fully speaks of this especially in Romans 11. The Catholic church started replacement theology and it has carried on ever since. It should have been fully abandoned in 1948 when the Lord brought Israel back in accordance to the Ezk prophecies. To the exact day according to Ezk 4. 

And as noted by FervorForFaith, only 1/3 of the believers are going to make it? The Church isnt in the book of Revelations accept at the beginning and the end. Nothing works or fits if the Church is Israel. It only works and fits of the Church is gone and Israel is well, Israel.

I believe it was 2 years when the change of time was modified. Mark, is it possible if you could change it back to where everyone has a good time period to edit their posts?

no, there is i think a 20 min window.

[Psalm 51:17]

The Church nowhere replaced Israel, the Bible fully speaks of this especially in Romans 11. The Catholic church started replacement theology and it has carried on ever since. It should have been fully abandoned in 1948 when the Lord brought Israel back in accordance to the Ezk prophecies. To the exact day according to Ezk 4. 

A-Millenialism escatology is also rooted out of replacement theology - it was started by St. Augustine the Hippo(I believe around 500 AD), but it didn't catch on to the Protestant/Baptist churches until around the 1800's. While this escatology believes Jesus will make his 2nd Coming, they don't believe in end times prophecies being fulfilled(ie-one of them being the nation of Israel re-forming, another being the great tribulation at the end, another being the 144K in Rev 7 meaning symbolic for the Christian remnant, etc), and pretty much it believes all of the Revelation judgments are symbolic that happen over the 2000 years(since Jesus was crucified on the cross and risen). So yes, another form of replacement theology right here that has leavened the modern-day church system.

St. Augustine of Hippo's heretical A-Millenial escatology
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,6406.0.html

[Kilika]

The Church isn’t here in the end times, trying to make Israel and the Church one and the same doesn’t work. The Church is raptured around the beginning of the Church, the End times deals with the world and Israel.

Based on the "pre-trib" theology, yes, that's correct.

I agree, it is Jews, along with all the other non-believers, that enter the seven year tribulation period. The body of Christ, the church, will not be here if in fact the pre-trib theology is true. So that means Jews do enter the tribulation and only a remnant will be saved as scripture says, but they cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without repenting and becoming born-again, and when they do that, they become a Christian, a "spiritual" Jew, circumcised of the heart, and are no longer a Jew by letter of Judaic law, even though the Jew is consider a "natural branch".

No, the Church, does not "replace" the Hebrew people. They are still Israel, by letter of law. It's not a replacement, it's a spiritual conversion.

[FervorForFaith]

The Church isn’t here in the end times, trying to make Israel and the Church one and the same doesn’t work. The Church is raptured around the beginning of the Church, the End times deals with the world and Israel. 2/3 of all of Israel will be killed off and a remnant from the 1/3 will be saved as they accept Jesus and call for him to save them at the end. Thus all of Israel will be saved as all that will be left will be Christian.

Only stuff I agree with in this whole section of your post is:

1) Two-thirds of Israel are wiped out
2) One-third of Israel gets saved

Everything else I disagree with. We will be here. Re-read what I posted in the pre-trib/Antichrist thread to see why I say that. Israel and the Church are separate branches of the same tree. The unbelieving Jews are cut off, and we are grafted in. We are both the elect, but we are not Israel, and Israel is not the Church.

The Church nowhere replaced Israel, the Bible fully speaks of this especially in Romans 11. The Catholic church started replacement theology and it has carried on ever since. It should have been fully abandoned in 1948 when the Lord brought Israel back in accordance to the Ezk prophecies. To the exact day according to Ezk 4.

I agree with that. Israel is Israel.

The Church isnt in the book of Revelations accept at the beginning and the end.

Hold on there, buddy! That's just not true. Read the following verses:

(Revelation 13:7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

We are the saints, are we not? Whether we be Jew or Gentile. We are the saints, and we are the elect. I'm about to post in that pre-trib thread more about this so be on the lookout for that.

[Mark]

Only stuff I agree with in this whole section of your post is:

1) Two-thirds of Israel are wiped out
2) One-third of Israel gets saved

Everything else I disagree with. We will be here. Re-read what I posted in the pre-trib/Antichrist thread to see why I say that. Israel and the Church are separate branches of the same tree. The unbelieving Jews are cut off, and we are grafted in. We are both the elect, but we are not Israel, and Israel is not the Church.

and your wrong. Again, you never answered my questions i asked after you very first post. How are we in Heaven With Jesus on horses before he comes back at the end of the Trib? Kind of hard on your post trib beliefs.

I agree with that. Israel is Israel.

Wait, that would be 3 things you agree on, you just said you only agreed with 2. Seems your a little confused, and God isnt the God of confusion. The only people who are ever confused are those that are not pre trib, kind of weird isnt that, because with pre Trib, it all fits, with anything else it just never works and the person ends up saying something like, it will all pan out in the end. 

Hold on there, buddy! That's just not true. Read the following verses:

(Revelation 13:7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Tribulation SAINTS are not the Church, sorry.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Again Tribulation SAINTS

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Exactly, Tribulation SAINTS will have to give a testimony and will loose their heads. Again the Church is gone, the Trib saints are those souls that reside under the alter until after the Trib. 

We are the saints, are we not? Whether we be Jew or Gentile. We are the saints, and we are the elect. I'm about to post in that pre-trib thread more about this so be on the lookout for that.

The Church are SAINTS every single one of us, be we are NOT Tribulation SAINTS. There is a difference. The TRIB SAINTS come out of the Trib, the Church does not. 

[FervorForFaith]

Explain how I'm wrong. Don't just state it like fact before you've even proved it.

Mark, no offense, but you're reading into the verses, rather than just reading them for what they are. I've gotten into many a conversation with my pastor about this. He likes to read things into the verses that aren't even there and then say "Just because it isn't there doesn't mean it isn't." You can't read things into the verse that aren't there. The Bible says what it means and means what it says.

The saints are the saints are the saints. There is no distinction made between "age of grace" saints and "tribulation" saints. In the Bible, it just says saints. We fit that description just as much as someone that gets saved during the tribulation (but I still don't see how they could even get saved if the Holy Spirit is not even here during the tribulation. We are saved by grace through faith, NOT OF WORKS. The Holy Spirit has to be there)

And btw, I said I only agreed with 2 things about THAT SECTION of your post. The other part where I said I agreed was a different section that I quoted.

[Psalm 51:17]

Eph 3:14  For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15  Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16  That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18  May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

[Kilika]

but you're reading into the verses,

We all tend to do that till a topic becomes fully clear to us. You have done the same thing with the posting of the verse...

"Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: "

Not sure why you posted that one. It reveals nothing about what your talking about. Those "under the alter" are dead at the opening of the 5th seal, having been killed for their testimony. They aren't on earth alive, and they aren't in heaven, but under the alter, asleep, right along with all the other dead awaiting judgement.

And don't bother debating with your "pastor". In fact, flee that churchianity building altogether. Your grieving the Spirit by hanging out there. YOU cannot change him, nor any man. Preach the Word, and if he doesn't receive it, shake the dust off your feet and leave. All we can do is share what we understand, with the desire that they will hear the truth as God sees fit.

(but I still don't see how they could even get saved if the Holy Spirit is not even here during the tribulation. We are saved by grace through faith, NOT OF WORKS. The Holy Spirit has to be there)

If that is the case, then I guess you don't see how Old Testament brethren have been be saved. They didn't have the Holy Ghost as we have had since Jesus left and gave us the Holy Ghost. The Spirit was not in man till after Jesus ascended to heaven. That means man will be saved by his works, just as scripture says, and just like it was till Jesus ascended. I believe that if it were by faith during the tribulation, then it would say they were judged according to their faith, but it says "works".

12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:12,13 (KJB)

[FervorForFaith]

We all tend to do that till a topic becomes fully clear to us. You have done the same thing with the posting of the verse...

"Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: "

Not sure why you posted that one. It reveals nothing about what your talking about. Those "under the alter" are dead at the opening of the 5th seal, having been killed for their testimony. They aren't on earth alive, and they aren't in heaven, but under the alter, asleep, right along with all the other dead awaiting judgement.

And don't bother debating with your "pastor". In fact, flee that churchianity building altogether. Your grieving the Spirit by hanging out there. YOU cannot change him, nor any man. Preach the Word, and if he doesn't receive it, shake the dust off your feet and leave. All we can do is share what we understand, with the desire that they will hear the truth as God sees fit.

If that is the case, then I guess you don't see how Old Testament brethren have been be saved. They didn't have the Holy Ghost as we have had since Jesus left and gave us the Holy Ghost. The Spirit was not in man till after Jesus ascended to heaven. That means man will be saved by his works, just as scripture says, and just like it was till Jesus ascended. I believe that if it were by faith during the tribulation, then it would say they were judged according to their faith, but it says "works".

12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:12,13 (KJB)

Nobody is ever saved by works. Hebrews 11 shows a TON of people from the Old Testament that were justified by FAITH. And Paul makes it perfectly clear in his epistles that the Jews of old were justified by faith. Heck, king David should have been stoned according to the law because he committed adultery and murder! If justified by the law, he should have been stoned.

Notice who is being judged in Revelation 20:12-13. The dead. This is after the Millennial reign. We won't be dead. Neither will any saved person be dead at that point. They are judged by their works because they don't have the blood of Jesus to atone for their sins, so they won't be justified by faith. Instead, their works need to be judged. And every single one of them will fall short, as the Bible states, and will be cast into the lake of fire.

[Kilika]

Well, I've said what I understand to be the case, you reject it, at least for now, so there you go. Moving on. Contentions and striving about the law is unprofitable and vain. If you and I both are saved, it doesn't matter now does it? "Peace be to the brethren..."

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Romans 14:5 (KJB)