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EXO 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,

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Author Topic: EXO 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,  (Read 566 times)
Mark
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« on: May 28, 2013, 01:34:01 pm »

I started a new thread today called Really Good Pictures, http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,8781.msg35757.html#msg35757

Mostly just nice sort of funny pics. Well some one didn’t like that and thought i shouldn’t have posted pics as the are "graven images". . I think we should explore this topic some. I mean are all pictures bad? Let’s look at the verse's. as there is more than 1.

Exo 20: 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


As we can see if we just go by verse 4 we shouldn’t make any image of anything for any reason. But what is the context of the passage?

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

It seems that this commandment is only in relation to worship. Every time you find this, it is always in relation to the worshipping of a devil idol of some sort, or the image of a devil.

Lev 26:1 YE shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it:

We can take the same story of when Israel was in the desert getting bitten by the serpents. Moses was told to make the serpent and stick it on the staff. Whoever looked at it was cured. hmmm. weird. But later the staff was worshipped and it became an idol and a graven image, then it was destroyed. In 2 Kings 18.

Another take on this is in the Temple itself.

2 Chron 3:10 And in the most holy house he made two cherubims of image work, and overlaid them with gold.
11 ¶ And the wings of the cherubims were twenty cubits long: one wing of the one cherub was five cubits, reaching to the wall of the house: and the other wing was likewise five cubits, reaching to the wing of the other cherub.
12 And one wing of the other cherub was five cubits, reaching to the wall of the house: and the other wing was five cubits also, joining to the wing of the other cherub.
13 The wings of these cherubims spread themselves forth twenty cubits: and they stood on their feet, and their faces were inward.


Solomon made "graven images", more than just these, but they were not destroyed as they were not worshipped.

So in my opinion, we can have pictures, not pics of God as any picture of him would be for worship, but can we have a pic of our kids or wife? You better worship your wife,  Wink i think we can. If i have a picture of a whale, I’m not worshipping the whale. Id worship the Lords mighty creation, but not the picture or animal. Can we have long haired pics of Jesus? no as he is the Lord God, and that is worship.

So what do you think? Am i wrong on this? or is it just always being taken out of CONTEXT.
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2013, 02:07:27 pm »

Good points! 

Yeah, 2 years ago I put an avatar of some female Hollywood movie star when I was on PPF, until a brethren pm'd me exhorting and warning me about it.

Although I wasn't directly worshipping her, per se, when I was putting a graven image of her in my avatar there, nonetheless it was worship in the sense that every time it was starring at me in the face, lustful thoughts et al were creeping in my mind. So yeah, it was idolatry and false worship either way.

This is also another big problem with this Michaelangelo "Jesus" painting - it appeals to the lust of the flesh toward females, and male homosexuals.

Mat_5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
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Mark
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 02:25:31 pm »

Good points! 

Yeah, 2 years ago I put an avatar of some female Hollywood movie star when I was on PPF, until a brethren pm'd me exhorting and warning me about it.

Although I wasn't directly worshipping her, per se, when I was putting a graven image of her in my avatar there, nonetheless it was worship in the sense that every time it was starring at me in the face, lu****l thoughts et al were creeping in my mind. So yeah, it was idolatry and false worship either way.

This is also another big problem with this Michaelangelo "Jesus" painting - it appeals to the lust of the flesh toward females, and male homosexuals.

Mat_5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

but can you have a picture of your grandma? or a cat, or a funny picture? what if its a picture of the sky?

Is this a Graven Image?

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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2013, 04:02:01 pm »

Well yeah, pt I was trying to make - just as long as you don't bow down and worship it in some form. In my case with my avatar on PPF 2 years ago, I may not have worshipped it directly, per se, but nonetheless it was a form of worship being that I was lusting after someone.

The same CAN'T be said, of let's say, your family, pets, or even those other pictures you posted here.
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2013, 08:54:00 pm »

Well, it depends on what one’s heart status is. In my case, family photos were graven images for a time.

When I left home, my family would constantly send me pictures of themselves. This built up over the years until the pictures filled up a box or two. Didn’t think much of it. Dragged the box around from move to move for several years like a ball and chain.

Years later, as I was seriously seeking direct contact with God, I ended up doing a clean up and assessment of all personal possessions. I had asked Him to point out anything that might be unacceptable to Him. Some things were obvious (occultic) and long forgotten about. Some things were a small thing to me, but a big thing to Him. Amazingly, I found that, with some things long forgotten, there would be a surge of emotion in me when I went to throw them out. Often I identified this as sentimentality even though ten minutes prior, I could have cared less about said object. That box of photos was one of those things.

I started to think about it and realized that each of those photos was a snapshot from the past that I was emotionally attached to. None of those people existed in the present since people are subject to change. It was the attachment to the object and the past that was interfering with my desired attachment to Him. When I finally got rid of those photos, it was liberating. I was free to relate to my family as they are now and not as they were in the past. This also aided the forgiveness process for me.
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2013, 10:18:39 pm »



Question: "What is a graven image?"

Answer: The phrase “graven image” comes from the King James Version and is first found in Exodus 20:4 in the first of the Ten Commandments. The Hebrew word translated “graven image” means literally an idol. A graven image is an image carved out of stone, wood, or metal. It could be a statue of a person or animal, or a relief carving in a wall or pole. It is differentiated from a molten image which is melted metal poured into a cast. Abstract Asherah poles, carved wooden Ba’als covered in gold leaf, and etchings of gods accompanying Egyptian hieroglyphics are all graven images.

The progression of idolatry in a pagan religion generally starts with the acknowledgement of a power that controls natural forces. The presence of the force is then thought to indwell an object, like a stone, or a place, like a mountain. The next step is altering a naturally-occurring object, like a standing stone, a deliberately planted tree, or a carved Asherah pole, and asking the force to indwell it. When the idolatrous culture has had time to contemplate the personality of the god, they then make corresponding physical images—a statue that looks like a woman or a relief carving that looks like an animal. Graven images can be either of the last two steps.

The spiritual progression is similar. People start with wanting something (Ephesians 5:5; Colossians 3:5), often children or prosperity or good crops. They observe the circumstances (circumstances some acknowledge are God-ordained, and others think are independent) that lead to these things and begin to ascribe the causal forces using human characteristics—thus creating gods. Places are set aside to commune with these false gods. For convenience sake, smaller items, thought to hold the power or the communication line of the gods, are brought into homes. Before long, the people are ensnared by the compulsion to give homage to a thing of their own definition instead of the God of the universe.

The second commandment, recorded in Exodus 20:4-5, reads, “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them…” Likely, this refers back to the first commandment, “You shall have no other gods before Me,” and specifically forbids the creation of idols. But it is equally dangerous to create an image of God Himself. God has given us reminders enough of His power and glory (Romans 1:20) without man attempting to use created things to represent the Creator.

Functionally, there is no difference between a “graven” image (Deuteronomy 4:16) and a “molten” image (Exodus 34:17). Both are man’s attempt to define and confine the power of God who works over creation. Both are the result of greed and covetousness, along with the fear that God does not have the worshipers’ best interests at heart. Graven images, whether an idol, a crystal, or a charm, are attempts to limit the power of God and reduce it to a small package which we can control. As with any kind of worship, the object of adoration inevitably controls us.


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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 03:47:37 am »

23  All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
24  Let no man seek his own, but every man another's [wealth].
1 Corinthians 10:23,24 (KJB)


31  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32  Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33  Even as I please all [men] in all [things], not seeking mine own profit, but the [profit] of many, that they may be saved.
1 Corinthians 10:31-33 (KJB)
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2013, 11:01:52 am »

With graven images I don't really think whether or not it's lawwful is the issue. I can tell you before I had been truly saved - when I went to India, then brought home (as souvineers) drawings and icons of the gods of Hinduism and other little gold leaf framed cards or drawings and art of animals they worship -  that they brought demonic curses and activity into my home. It did not stop until I rebuked them in the name of Jesus, and destroyed them and removed them from my home. It was the first step the Lord took in showing me He will have no gods before Him. The Lord used those graven images to show me He had all authority! Praise Jesus and the power of His name Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2013, 11:11:50 am »

With graven images I don't really think whether or not it's lawwful is the issue. I can tell you before I had been truly saved - when I went to India, then brought home (as souvineers) drawings and icons of the gods of Hinduism and other little gold leaf framed cards or drawings and art of animals they worship -  that they brought demonic curses and activity into my home. It did not stop until I rebuked them in the name of Jesus, and destroyed them and removed them from my home. It was the first step the Lord took in showing me He will have no gods before Him. The Lord used those graven images to show me He had all authority! Praise Jesus and the power of His name Smiley

Yet in that instance you purchased actual images of deities, the images themselves were created just for that purpose. Like a Catholic statue od Mary is created for worship, that should be destroyed. A picture showing shifh in the ocean, that was atken just because it looks pretty, that was not created for worship.
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2013, 01:05:09 pm »

OK, let's look at the BIG picture here...

Ultimately, it will be the SPIRIT that guides us in all things. I'll give you another example - whenever I turn on the tv, if let's say I cross paths with some movie that shows a man and a woman getting dirty, I end up flipping the channels b/c it's the SPIRIT in me that's urging me to do so(while my flesh tries to say otherwise). I don't flip the channel b/c I have this "But I'm a Christian and I can't do these things!" attitude.

Does anyone see what I'm trying to say here? For the record, no, I don't like some of these graven images either like the Michaelangelo "Jesus" picture - but nonetheless it's b/c it's the SPIRIT in me that's telling me it's wrong. Ultimately, I take no credit for this, but give all the credit to the Lord Jesus Christ for giving me discernment.

This is also why as Christians, we need to get into the word daily...

James 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jas 1:19  Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
Jas 1:20  For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
Jas 1:21  Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.


And more good news, he gives us the word for our EDIFICATION, AND NOT for destruction...

2Cor_13:10  Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

So ultimately, instead of us beating up ourselves over what graven images that get thrown at us, we should be THANKFUL to the Lord that he gives us discernment.
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2013, 03:25:28 pm »

With graven images I don't really think whether or not it's lawwful is the issue. I can tell you before I had been truly saved - when I went to India, then brought home (as souvineers) drawings and icons of the gods of Hinduism and other little gold leaf framed cards or drawings and art of animals they worship -  that they brought demonic curses and activity into my home. It did not stop until I rebuked them in the name of Jesus, and destroyed them and removed them from my home. It was the first step the Lord took in showing me He will have no gods before Him. The Lord used those graven images to show me He had all authority! Praise Jesus and the power of His name Smiley

I had something similar happen to me. When I was in Japan, I unwittingly participated in a Obon festival (ancestor worship) all in the name of being “cultured”. I remember seeing these priests in their garb and receiving a small trinket that was supposed to be “good luck”. Didn’t think anything of it as that trinket sat in a drawer for years afterward.

Much later, during another inventory/cleanout, I found this thing and immediately knew it had to be destroyed. So I took it outside and discovered in contained some sort of hidden writing inside of it. As it burned it gave of a weird blue-green smoke that stained the concrete.

When He says “no other gods before me”, He really means it. No experimenting. No “cultural experience”. No association whatsoever.

I suppose some Christians can have souvenirs or trinkets from other cultures in their house. That’s between them and Christ. But as for me, I can no longer tolerate these things being in my personal living space.
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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2013, 04:58:28 pm »

To me it comes down to being similar to the passage about why we do not tamper with witchcraft or try to talk to the dead. It is a trap from the devil to bring curses and damnation upon us.

Deuteronomy 18:10-14 KJV
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord : and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God. For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Likewise, trying to depict anything of heaven or other things we have not seen, and idolizing it - even receiving comfort from it can quickly turn to worship and trust that is not in the Lord! I don't think he put it at the top of the Big 10 for a small reason.
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« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2013, 05:55:16 pm »


Classical and Modern Art as graven images:

 "The general willingness to accept a reproduction in place of the original also signifies an unwillingness to participate in the ritualistic aesthetics and politics of earlier times. For example, a photograph or film of a Catholic cathedral denudes its unique aura, transforming the role of participant into that of a spectator or possibly a detached commentator..."
(More)

http://modernism.research.yale.edu/wiki/index.php/The_Work_of_Art_in_the_Age_of_Mechanical_Reproduction

This article here shows how works of art are worshipped by the world and how they wish to preserve their ability to keep their "hold" on their "value". This type of graven image is about love of money.
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Kilika
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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2013, 05:59:12 pm »

"...the love of money is the root of all evil..."
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