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Dinosaurs lived thousands not millions of years ago.

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Author Topic: Dinosaurs lived thousands not millions of years ago.  (Read 3932 times)
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« on: April 17, 2015, 11:43:28 am »

ahhh, this just proves that evolution is a religion. Scientists cant even cope with the truth, well as close to it as they can get. Still a couple of years off, but they are getting closer.

Carbon-14-dated dinosaur bones are less than 40,000 years old

Researchers have found a reason for the puzzling survival of soft tissue and collagen in dinosaur bones - the bones are younger than anyone ever guessed.  Carbon-14 (C-14) dating of multiple samples of bone from 8 dinosaurs found in Texas, Alaska, Colorado, and Montana revealed that they are only 22,000 to 39,000 years old.

Members of the Paleochronology group presented their findings at the 2012 Western Pacific Geophysics Meeting in Singapore, August 13-17, a conference of the American Geophysical Union (AGU) and the Asia Oceania Geosciences Society (AOGS).

Since dinosaurs are thought to be over 65 million years old, the news is stunning - and more than some can tolerate.  After the AOGS-AGU conference in Singapore, the abstract was removed from the conference website by two chairmen because they could not accept the findings.  Unwilling to challenge the data openly, they erased the report from public view without a word to the authors.  When the authors inquired, they received this letter:

They did not look at the data and they never spoke with the researchers.  They did not like the test results, so they censored them.

Carbon-14 is considered to be a highly reliable dating technique.  It's accuracy has been verified by using C-14 to date artifacts whose age is known historically.  The fluctuation of the amount of C-14 in the atmosphere over time adds a small uncertainty, but contamination by "modern carbon" such as decayed organic matter from soils poses a greater possibility for error.

Dr. Thomas Seiler, a physicist from Germany, gave the presentation in Singapore.  He said that his team and the laboratories they employed took special care to avoid contamination.  That included protecting the samples, avoiding cracked areas in the bones, and meticulous pre-cleaning of the samples with chemicals to remove possible contaminants.  Knowing that small concentrations of collagen can attract contamination, they compared precision Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS) tests of collagen and bioapatite (hard carbonate bone mineral) with conventional counting methods of large bone fragments from the same dinosaurs.  "Comparing such different molecules as minerals and organics from the same bone region, we obtained concordant C-14 results which were well below the upper limits of C-14 dating.  These, together with many other remarkable concordances between samples from different fossils, geographic regions and stratigraphic positions make random contamination as origin of the C-14 unlikely".

The theoretical limit for C-14 dating is 100,000 years using AMS, but for practical purposes it is 45,000 to 55,000 years.  The half-life of C-14 is 5730 years.  If dinosaur bones are 65 million years old, there should not be one atom of C-14 left in them.

Many dinosaur bones are not petrified.  Dr. Mary Schweitzer, associate professor of marine, earth, and atmospheric sciences at North Carolina State University, surprised scientists in 2005 when she reported finding soft tissue in dinosaur bones.  She started a firestorm of controversy in 2007 and 2008 when she reported that she had sequenced proteins in the dinosaur bone.  Critics charged that the findings were mistaken or that what she called soft tissue was really biofilm produced by bacteria that had entered from outside the bone.  Schweitzer answered the challenge by testing with antibodies.  Her report in 2009 confirmed the presence of collagen and other proteins that bacteria do not make.  In 2011, a Swedish team found soft tissue and biomolecules in the bones of another creature from the time of the dinosaurs, a Mosasaur, which was a giant lizard that swam in shallow ocean waters.  Schweitzer herself wonders why these materials are preserved when all the models say they should be degraded.  That is, if they really are over 65 million years old, as the conventional wisdom says.

Dinosaur bones with Carbon-14 dates in the range of 22,000 to 39,000 years before present, combined with the discovery of soft tissue in dinosaur bones, indicate that something is indeed wrong with the conventional wisdom about dinosaurs.

However, it has been hard to reach the public with the information.  Despite being simple test results without any interpretation, they were blocked from presentation in conference proceedings by the 2009 North American Paleontological Convention, the American Geophysical Union in 2011 and 2012, the Geological Society of America in 2011 and 2012, and by the editors of various scientific journals.  Fortunately, there is the internet.

The data: Carbon-14 in dinosaur bones

chart at site: http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html

(a)  Acro (Acrocanthosaurus) is a carnivorous dinosaur excavated in 1984 near Glen Rose TX by C. Baugh and G. Detwiler; in 108 MA Cretaceous sandstone - identified by Dr. W. Langston of Un. of TX at Austin.

Allosaurus is a carnivorous dinosaur excavated in 1989 by the J. Hall, A. Murray team.  It was found under an Apatosaurus skeleton in the Wildwood section of a ranch west of Grand Junction CO in 150 Ma (late Jurassic) sandstone of the Morrison formation.

Hadrosaur #1, a duck billed dinosaur.  Bone fragments were excavated in 1994 along Colville River by G. Detwiler, J. Whitmore team in the famous Liscomb bone bed of the Alaskan North Slope - validated by Dr. J. Whitmore.

Hadrosaur #2, a duck billed dinosaur.  A lone femur bone was excavated in 2004 in clay in the NW 1/4, NE 1/4 of Sec. 32, T16N, R56 E, Dawson County, Montana by the O. Kline team of the Glendive Dinosaur and Fossil Museum.  It was sawed open by the O. Kline, H. Miller team in 2005 to retrieve samples for C-14 testing.

Triceratops #1, a ceratopsid dinosaur.  A lone femur bone was excavated in 2004 in Cretaceous clay at 47 6 18N by 104 39 22W in Montana by the O. Kline team of the Glendive Dinosaur and Fossil Museum.  It was sawed open by the O. Kline, H. Miller team in 2005 to retrieve samples for C-14 testing.

Triceratops #2, a very large ceratopsid-type dinosaur excavated in 2007 in Cretaceous clay at 47 02 44N and 104 32 49W in Montana by the O. Kline team of Glendive Dinosaur and Fossil Museum. Outer bone fragments of a femur were tested for C-14.

Hadrosaur #3, a duck billed dinosaur.  Scrapings were taken from a large bone excavated by Joe Taylor of Mt. Blanco Fossil Museum, Crosbyton TX in Colorado in Cretaceous strata.

Apatosaur, a sauropod.  Scrapings were taken from a rib still imbedded in the clay soil of a ranch in CO, partially excavated in 2007 and 2009, in 150 Ma (late Jurassic) strata by C. Baugh and B. Dunkel.

(b)  GX is Geochron Labs, Cambridge MA, USA; AA is University of Arizona, Tuscon AZ, USA; UG is University of Georgia, Athens GA, USA; KIA is Christian Albrechts Universitat, Kiel Germany.

(c)  AMS is Accelerated Mass Spectrometry; Beta is the conventional method of counting Beta decay particles.

(d)  Bio is the carbonate fraction of bioapatite. Bow is the bulk organic fraction of whole bone; Col is collagen fraction; w or ext is charred, exterior or whole bone fragments; Hum is humic acids.

Bioapatite is a major component of the mineralised part of bones.  It incorporates a small amount of carbonate as a substitute for phosphate in the crystal lattice.

Charred bone is the description given by lab personnel for blackened bone surfaces.

Collagen: Proteins that are the main component of connective tissue.  It can be as high as 20% in normal bone but decomposes over time so that there should be none after ~100,000 years.  Yet it is found in four-foot long, nine-inch diameter dinosaur femur bones claimed to be greater than 65 million years old.  The "Modified Longin Method" is the normal purification method for bone collagen.  Dr. Libby, the discoverer of Radiocarbon dating and Nobel Prize winner, showed that purified collagen could not give erroneous ages.

Click to see a YouTube video of the conference presentation

Click to see the conference schedule for presentation of abstract BG02-A012 at 17:00

On the conference website, the abstract was removed from position number 5.
Click to see where it had been on the Conference website

This is what happens when you try to get members of the academic community involved:
Click to see the YouTube video

Banned by the Center for Applied Isotope Studies

From 2007 through 2011 the Paleochronology group had 11 dinosaur bone samples carbon dated by the Center for Applied Isotope Studies at the University of Georgia, and for good reason.  Senior research scientist Alexander Cherkinsky specializes in the preparation of samples for Carbon-14 testing.  He directed the pretreatment and processing of the dinosaur bone samples with the Accelerator Mass Spectrometer, though he did not know the bones were from dinosaurs, and he signed the reports.  Carbon dating at this facility is certainly the very best.

But in 2014, someone told the director of the facility, Jeff Speakman, that the Paleochronology group was showing the Carbon-14 reports on a website and YouTube and drawing the obvious conclusions.  So when he received another bone sample from the Paleochronology group, he returned it to sender and sent an email saying: "I have recently become aware of the work that you and your team have been conducting with respect to radiocarbon dating of bone.  The scientists at CAIS and I are dismayed by the claims that you and your team have made with respect to the age of the Earth and the validity of biological evolution.  Consequently, we are no longer able to provide radiocarbon services in support of your anti-scientific agenda.  I have instructed the Radiocarbon Laboratory to return your recent samples to you and to not accept any future samples for analysis."

Notice that he did not say the radiocarbon reports of the dinosaur bone samples were inaccurate.  No, his objection was that the Paleochronology group was using the reports to draw the obvious conclusion that dinosaurs lived thousands, not millions, of years ago.  So I asked him 3 times over 3 weeks what is the right conclusion to draw from the test results they provided us; then I asked his entire scientific staff.  None of them had an answer.

This is an attitude we have encountered among members of academia: there is an established truth, and all evidence contrary to it is rejected.  Anyone who challenges the established truth is made an enemy.

Mark Armitage and the triceratops horn

Mark Armitage served as the Manager for the Electron and Confocal Microscopy Suite in the Biology Department at California State University Northridge from January 2010 to February 2013.  Mark was suddenly terminated by the Biology Department when his discovery of soft tissues in a Triceratops horn was published in Acta Histochemica.  The university claimed his appointment at had been temporary and claimed a lack of funding for the position.  This was news to him, and contradicted prior statements and documents from the university.  He is currently seeking relief in a legal action for wrongful termination and religious discrimination by California State University Northridge (CSUN).

Mark Armitage has a MS degree in biology and has been a microscope scientist (microscopist) for 30 years.  He was the president of the Southern California Society for Microscopy for several years.  He has some 30 publications to his credit.  Mark's micrographs have appeared on the covers of eleven scientific journals, and he has many technical publications on microscopic phenomena in such journals as American Laboratory, Southern California Academy of Sciences Bulletin, Parasitology Research, Microscopy and Microanalysis, Microscopy Today and Acta Histochemica, among others.  His career in teaching at educational institutions includes Master's College Azusa Pacific University and California State University Northridge.

According to papers filed with the Superior Court of Los Angeles County, when Mark Armitage interviewed for an opening at CSUN for a "regular" "part-time" microscopist in 2009 he told the panel that he had published materials supportive of creationism.  William Krohmer, Manager of Technical Services and Safety, who would be Armitage's direct supervisor, was on the panel.  The panel hired Armitage despite his creationist writings because of his exceptional qualifications.  The position was Electron Microscopy Technician in the Department of Biology, working two ten-hour days per week.  He was "permanent part-time" and was allowed to enroll in the full benefits package of the university.

He ran the Microscopy Imaging Facility with its three electron microscopes, personally training students and faculty on their proper use.  He was often praised for his work and accomplishments.  The Biology Department bought a new confocal microscope that used high-powered lasers for imaging and was computer-driven.  Armitage supervised the installation of the new microscope.  He was assigned to be the only instructor on it, with responsibility for control and supervision of the instrument.

In February 2012, he was asked to teach a full graduate course in Biological Imaging for the Biology Department.  In March 2012, Dr. Steven B. Oppenheimer sent an email to staff saying that the two days per week that Armitage was working needed to be expanded in order to facilitate the growing demands of the microscopy lab.

In June 2012, Dr. Ernest Kwok was made chairman of the committee overseeing the microscopy lab, and became Armitage's new supervisor.

In the summer of 2012, Armitage responded to an invitation to participate in a search for dinosaur fossils in Glendive, Montana in the famous Hell Creek formation.  He found the brow-horn of a triceratops; it was not petrified.  Studying the horn at the CSUN lab, he discovered soft tissue in the supposedly 65-million-year-old (or more) fossil.

While teaching students how to use microscopes in the lab that he directed at CSUN, Armitage engaged them in brief socratic dialogue about the possible age of the horn.  One of Dr. Kwok's students was stunned by the discovery and implications of soft tissue in the triceratops horn, and told Dr. Kwok about it.

On June 12, 2012, Dr. Kwok stormed into Armitage's lab and shouted, "We are not going to tolerate your religion in this department!", and chastised Armitage's "creationist" projects, referring to the triceratops horn.  Armitage reported this to the Biology Department chair, Dr. Randy Cohen, and to the manager of technical services for the Biology Department, William Krohmer.  They both played down the event and told Armitage to forget it.

Praise for Armitage's work continued from distinguished members of the Biology Department.  In November 2012, a photo of the soft tissue in the triceratops horn was published on the cover of American Laboratory magazine.  The former chair of the Biology Department, Dr. Oppenheimer, wrote a ringing endorsement of Armitage in a letter of recommendation.

On February 12, 2013, the journal Acta Histochemica published a paper by Armitage describing the discovery of soft tissue in the triceratops horn.  Acta Histochemica is a peer-reviewed journal of structural biochemistry of cells and tissue that welcomes advanced microscopical imaging; it has been publishing since 1954.  The current editor of Acta Histochemica is a biology professor at CSUN who was a colleague of Armitage, the esteemed Dr. Steven B. Oppenheimer.

On the day the paper was published, Dr. Kwok called a secret meeting of the committee overseeing the microscopy lab.  Armitage had served on the committee for three years, but he was not invited.  The committee decided to terminate Armitage.

On February 19, 2013, William Krohmer told Armitage that there was a "witch hunt" being mounted against him, and advised him to resign.  When he refused to resign, Krohmer told him he would be terminated.  Armitage was fired on February 27, 2013.  He was told that his job had only been a "temporary appointment".

There is an interesting sidenote to this story.  Hugh Miller, head of the Paleochronology group, obtained a bone sample from the triceratops horn Mark Armitage discovered.  The sample was sent to the Center for Applied Isotope Studies at the University of Georgia in 2012 to test for Carbon-14.  As you can see, the bone was dated by them to 33,570 years before present.

Download pdf comparing dinosaur bones with other objects containing Carbon-14
See Figure 1 (enlarge 200%)

More soft tissue

A remarkable find was published in the journal Nature in April 2013: "we report the discovery of a monotaxic embryonic dinosaur bone bed in Lower Jurassic strata near Dawa, Lufeng County, Yunnan Province, China".  The "bone bed is characterized by the presence of completely disarticulated skeletal elements at various stages of embryonic development".  "This discovery also provides the oldest evidence of in situ preservation of complex organic remains in a terrestrial vertebrate."  "There are no preserved nest structures or uncrushed eggs."  "In contrast to previous studies of organic residues based on extracts obtained by decalcifying samples of bone, our approach targeted particular tissues in situ.  This made it possible to detect the preservation of organic residues, probably direct products of the decay of complex proteins, within both the fast-growing embryonic bone tissue and the margins of the vascular spaces."  "Previous reports of preserved dinosaur organic compounds, or 'dinosaurian soft tissues', have been controversial because it was difficult to rule out bacterial biofilms or some other form of contamination as a possible source of the organics.  Our results clearly indicate the presence of both apatite and amide peaks within woven embryonic bone tissue, which should not be susceptible to microbial contamination or other post-mortem artefacts."  -- Reisz, Robert R., Timothy D. Huang, Eric M. Roberts, ShinRung Peng, Corwin Sullivan, Koen Stein, Aaron R. H. LeBlanc, DarBin Shieh, RongSeng Chang, ChengCheng Chiang, Chuanwei Yang, Shiming Zhong. 11 April 2013. Embryology of Early Jurassic dinosaur from China with evidence of preserved organic remains. Nature, Vol. 496, pp. 210-214. doi: 10.1038/nature11978.


Radiocarbon (RC) or Carbon-14 (C-14) dating of linen, cotton, bones, fossils, wood, sea shells, seeds, coal, diamond (anything with carbon) is one of the most common and well understood of the various scientific dating methods.

Carbon-14 is a radioactive isotope of carbon that is formed naturally in the atmosphere.  All plants and animals have a regular intake of carbon while they are alive.  When an animal or plant dies, it no longer takes in carbon of any form.  C-14 has a half-life of 5730 years.  The maximum theoretical detection limit is about 100,000 years, but radiocarbon dating is only reliable up to 55,000 years with the best equipment.  Older dates are considered to be tentative.  If, as generally believed, dinosaurs have been extinct for 65 million years, there should not be one atom of Carbon-14 left in their bones.

The accuracy of carbon dates depends on whether the ratio of Carbon-14 to Carbon-12 was the same in the past as it is today.  Even with reliable results there is always a degree of uncertainty, and dates are usually given as +or- so many years.

There are two types of C-14 dating technologies.  The original one, counting Beta decay particles, is a multistep process and requires sample sizes of several grams.  The newer method of "Accelerator Mass Spectrometry" (AMS) requires smaller sample sizes and is more accurate.  Beta counting is prone to possible errors in each of the many phases.  AMS uses a much smaller sample size, and actually counts the Carbon-14 atoms as they are separated from the sample.  The equipment accelerates streams of charged atomic particles to high velocities in order to sort and analyze them.

Carbon-14 dating of bone is one of the most difficult tasks in carbon dating, and requires the most care of any carbonaceous material.  This is mainly due to the nature of bone, which is a very porous material.  Certain parts of bone look like a sponge under the microscope.  Many dinosaur bones are hard as rock because the original material has been replaced with a silicon material such as quartz.  These are "mineralized" or "fossilized".  We have found un-mineralized dinosaur bones.  We then scrape the outer surface off to get rid of surface contamination, and date the inner remaining material.  One can date just the purified bioapatite, the total organics, or the collagen, or a combination of these, as we did in several cases.

The discovery, and later confirmation, of collagen in a Tyrannosaurus-Rex dinosaur femur bone was reported in the journal SCIENCE.  This is a remarkable find because collagen, being a soft tissue present in most animals, is supposed to decay in a few thousand years.  Collagen is the main protein found in connective tissue of animals.  It can make up from 1 to 6 percent of muscle mass.  Triceratops and Hadrosaur femur bones in excellent condition were discovered in Glendive Montana, and our group received permission to saw them in half and collect samples for Carbon-14 testing.  Both bones were tested by a licensed lab for presence of collagen.  Both bones did in fact contain some collagen.

The best process (Accelerator Mass Spectrometry) was used to date them.  Total organic carbon and dinosaur bioapatite was extracted and pretreated to remove potential contaminants, and concordant radiocarbon dates were obtained.  They were similar to radiocarbon dates for ice-age megafauna such as Siberian mammoths, saber tooth tigers of the Los Angeles LaBrea Tarpits, sloth dung, and giant bison.  We usually prefer AMS dating because of its inherent superior accuracy, but use the conventional method when large samples are available in order to completely rule out contamination.  This is recommended by a carbon-dating laboratory specialist.

Dr. Jean de Pontcharra, one of ten co-authors and an atomic physicist retired from the Grenoble Research Center of the French Atomic Energy Commission, and Professor Dr. Robert Bennett, physicist and co-author, agree that "the AOGS-AGU assembly encourages presentation of reliable data even though the topic may be controversial.  This is a very wise policy for the advacement of science and the education of people everywhere.  Thus, we encourage our colleagues to do their own carbon dating of dinosaur bones from museums and university fossil repositories around the world, as well as testing for C-14 in scrapings from dinosaur bones as they are excavated.  We are anxious to see their results presented, just as we have done.  Also, we call on the news media and citizens everywhere to urge paleontologists, curators, university faculty, and government scientific agencies to encourage and support further testing for C-14 content in dinosaur remains.  Scientists need to know the actual chronology of the Earth and the age of the fossils."

 Download pdf of data and commentary

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